Alter-self elemental issue

[Pilo]

Hi!
I play in a 3.5/PF gestalt game where i am Sorcerer/Oracle. I pick the Life mystery and the Energy Body revelation that makes me an elemental.

A quote from alter self : "You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement)..."

Obviously Air elemental does not have wings and their only way to move is flight.

By using Alter-self i can now take the shape of an air elemental.
Is elemental flight an evident phisycal particularity or am i grounded because it become impossible for me to move?

Thanks,

Pilodermann.

Sorry i'm french so my english might not be perfect.

[erikun]

Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) requires you to be the same type (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/typesSubtypes.htm) as the creature you turn into (or humanoid only (http://paizo.com/PRD/spells/alterSelf.html) if playing with the Pathfinder version). Most normal player characters are humanoid-types, and so cannot use Alter Self to turn into an elemental.

If you were an elemental and used Alter Self to turn into an Air Elemental, though, you would be able to fly as an Air Elemental. (I am just using my judgement on this one.)

[Yuki Akuma]

You get the natural abilities of your new form when you use Alter Self to assume it - breathing underwater, vision capabilities, and etc. Flight is a natural capability of air elementals, so you'd get it.

[DonEsteban]

Movement Modes

Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running. These are natural, not magical, unless specifically noted in a monster description.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement)...

Flying is a natural mode of movement for an air elemental. Whether or not this is a physical quality is open to debate, but I think it would be rather silly not to allow it (in spite of the fact that the descriptive text of Alter Self only includes flight with wings).

Note, however, that the Alter Self/Polymorph line of spells is inherently broken and every DM has the right, if not duty, to restrict it where necessary...

[TroubleBrewing]

Air Elementals are, by definition, made of air.

The ability to fly would seem nothing less than natural for them. :smalltongue:

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Here's the text of the PF Alter Self (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self):


When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.

Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.

You absolutely cannot turn into an elemental using Alter Self in Pathfinder. It specifically says Small or Medium humanoid, not Small or Medium creature of your type, unlike the 3.5 version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm).

Edit: Re-read the 3.5 version. This trick doesn't work in 3.5 either.

...and if anyone was interested, here's the Life Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/life) Revelation the OP was referring to:


Energy Body (Su): As a standard action, you can transform your body into pure life energy, resembling a golden-white fire elemental. In this form, you gain the elemental subtype and give off a warm, welcoming light that increases the light level within 10 feet by one step, up to normal light. Any undead creature striking you with its body or a handheld weapon deals normal damage, but at the same time the attacker takes 1d6 points of positive energy damage + 1 point per oracle level. Creatures wielding melee weapons with reach are not subject to this damage if they attack you. If you grapple or attack an undead creature using unarmed strikes or natural weapons, you may deal this damage in place of the normal damage for the attack. Once per round, if you pass through a living allied creature’s square or the ally passes through your square, it heals 1d6 hit points + 1 per oracle level. You may use this ability to heal yourself as a move action. You choose whether or not to heal a creature when it passes through your space. You may return to your normal form as a free action. You may remain in energy body form for a number of rounds per day equal to your oracle level.

[Pilo]

We play D&D 3.5 with PF flavor not PF only, so alter self spell is the 3.5 version.

Thanks everyone for the answers.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Doesn't work in 3.5 either. Check the srd if you don't believe me (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):


You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

Edit: If your base form was an Elemental, this would work in 3.5. If your base form is anything other than Elemental, this would not work in any system.

[Yuki Akuma]

One would assume his type is Elemental somehow.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

One would assume his type is Elemental somehow.

Read the first post. He's turning into an elemental for a few rounds using a class feature of the Oracle, so his "normal form" doesn't change.

[Zaq]

To play devil's advocate for a minute, I can see a weak argument (but an argument nonetheless) that "normal form" refers to "the form you have when you cast Alter Self," not necessarily "the form you have after being hit with Disjunction."

I wouldn't personally agree with such an argument, but I can see such an argument being made without too much of a stretch.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

To play devil's advocate for a minute, I can see a weak argument (but an argument nonetheless) that "normal form" refers to "the form you have when you cast Alter Self," not necessarily "the form you have after being hit with Disjunction."

I wouldn't personally agree with such an argument, but I can see such an argument being made without too much of a stretch.

/wave; I've read your Truenamer guide like a dozen times.

I don't think there's an argument to made there; the Revelation specifically says multiple times that you're changing form, while the 3.5 Alter Self text specifically says multiple times your "normal form."

Compare with the Monk ability Perfect Self:


Perfect Self
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.

Here you are permanently transforming into another type; an acquired template that made you an undead, monstrous humanoid, etc. would let you 3.5 alter self into creatures of your new kind.

I really don't think there's a RAI or RAW argument that a temporary change into a new form makes it your normal form.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Let me try a different strategy:

What do you want to accomplish with this spell/class ability combo? Because mostly, it looks like you're either trying to cast Elemental Body (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/elemental-body) to turn into an Air Elemental or Fly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fly), but because you've mostly asked about flying speed, I'm going to assume flying is the most important thing here.

If you're casting Alter Self as a Sorcerer, that probably means you're at least 4th level. If you're 5th level, just use Alter Self to turn into a Raptoran (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1) or other humanoid that can fly (that I can't think of right now). No shenanigans necessary.

[Pilo]

"Normal form" so i can't.
The french translation isn't accurate on this point so it may have been possible.

Thanks everyone.

You can close this subject if you want to.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

"Normal form" so i can't.
The french translation isn't accurate on this point so it may have been possible.

Thanks everyone.

You can close this subject if you want to.

That's really interesting. Could you give us the French version and a translation?

[Pilo]

From http://www.regles-donjons-dragons.com/Page922.html#Topic182


Modification d’apparence
Transmutation
Niveau : Bard 2, Ens/Mag 2
Composantes : V, G
Temps d’incantation : 1 action simple
Portée : personnelle
Cible : le jeteur de sorts
Durée : 10 minutes/niveau (T)

Le personnage prend la forme d’une créature de son type (comme humanoïde ou créature magique). Cette nouvelle forme ne doit pas être éloignée de plus d’une catégorie de taille de la sienne. Le nombre maximum de DV de la nouvelle forme est égal au niveau de lanceur de sorts du personnage, pour un maximum de 5 DV au niveau 5. On peut se changer en un membre de son espèce, voire en soi-même.
Le personnage conserve ses valeurs de caractéristique, sa classe, son niveau, ses points de vie, son alignement, son bonus de base à l’attaque et ses bonus de base aux jets de sauvegarde. Il garde également les attaques découlant de pouvoirs magiques ou surnaturels, ainsi que les particularités de sa forme normale, à l’exception de celles qui requièrent un membre que ne présente pas la nouvelle forme (comme une bouche pour un souffle ou des yeux pour une attaque de regard). Il conserve aussi les attaques spéciales extraordinaires et particularités issues de niveaux de classe (comme le pouvoir de rage de berserker du barbare), mais pas les particularités ayant d’autres origines (comme la présence terrifiante du dragon).
Si la nouvelle forme est douée de parole, le personnage communique normalement. Il conserve ses facultés de lanceur de sorts naturelles, mais la nouvelle forme doit être à même de parler intelligiblement (et donc d’avoir un langage) pour user de composantes verbales. Il lui faut également des membres pour manipuler les composantes matérielles et gestuelles.
Le personnage acquiert les particularités physiques de la nouvelle forme tout en conservant son esprit. Ces dernières incluent la taille naturelle, les facultés de déplacement habituelles (comme le creusement, l’escalade, la marche, la nage et le vol à l’aide d’ailes, pour une vitesse de déplacement de 36 mètres en ce qui concerne le vol et de 18 mètres au regard des autres modes de déplacement), le bonus d’armure naturelle, les armes naturelles (comme les griffes, la morsure, etc.), les bonus de compétence raciaux, les dons supplémentaires raciaux et toute particularité physique évidente (présence ou absence d’ailes, nombre de membres, etc.). Un corps doté de membres supplémentaires ne permet pas de porter davantage d’attaques (ou des attaques à deux armes plus avantageuses) que la normale.
Le personnage ne gagne pas de particularités ou d’attaques spéciales extraordinaires qui ne soient pas mentionnées ci-dessus sous les particularités physiques, comme la vision dans le noir, la vision nocturne, la vision aveugle, la guérison accélérée, la régénération, l’odorat, etc.
Le personnage ne gagne aucun pouvoir magique, attaque spéciale surnaturelle ou particularité de la nouvelle forme. Le type et le sous-type (le cas échéant) restent les mêmes, quelle que soit la nouvelle forme. Il est impossible d’adopter la forme d’une créature dotée d’un archétype, même si ce dernier ne change en rien le type et le sous-type.
Le personnage désigne les particularités physiques mineures de la nouvelle forme (comme la couleur et la texture des cheveux, la couleur de la peau, etc.), en respectant l’apparence d’une créature de l’espèce donnée. Il détermine également les particularités physiques de marque de la nouvelle forme (comme la taille, le poids et le sexe), mais elles aussi doivent se conformer à la norme. Le personnage est donc déguisé en spécimen typique de la race de la nouvelle forme. D’ailleurs, s’il lance ce sort pour se déguiser, il bénéficie d’un bonus de +10 au test de Déguisement.
Une fois le changement d’apparence effectué, le personnage conserve tout l’équipement qu’il est capable de porter. Les autres éléments se fondent dans la nouvelle forme et ne fonctionnent plus. Quand il recouvre sa véritable forme, les objets concernés réapparaissent là où ils se trouvaient précédemment portés sur le corps du personnage. Ils se remettent alors à fonctionner. Les objets ramassés sous la forme magique et qu’il ne saurait porter sous sa forme normale tombent à ses pieds. Ceux que n’importe laquelle des formes peut porter (au niveau de la bouche, des mains, etc.) restent en place. Tout membre ou élément d’équipement séparé du personnage recouvre sa véritable forme.


The statement which was discussed here:

Le personnage prend la forme d’une créature de son type (comme humanoïde ou créature magique). Cette nouvelle forme ne doit pas être éloignée de plus d’une catégorie de taille de la sienne. Le nombre maximum de DV de la nouvelle forme est égal au niveau de lanceur de sorts du personnage, pour un maximum de 5 DV au niveau 5. On peut se changer en un membre de son espèce, voire en soi-même.

The character take the shape of a creature of her type (like humanoid or magical beast). This new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of the new form is equal to the character caster level to a maximum of 5 HD at level 5. You can impersonnate a member of your own kind and even yourself.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Aaah, it doesn't really have the same specification of "normal type," does it? That's really interesting, especially in role playing games where people nitpick over individual words. Thanks for indulging my curiosity, and I'm sorry if I was a bit grumpy in my responses; I thought this was a case of a player trying to twist the rules, not an honest question about an unclear translation.