OOTS #812 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Lord Raziere]

heh, nice satire of those login/registration things. :smallamused:

[Ekul]

Heh heh. Anel. It's a cheap joke, but sometimes those are the most satisfying. :smallamused:

[Feytalist]

I'm always surprised when a new strip is up. It feels like we're being spoilt :smallbiggrin:

Also, capcha. Heh.

[deuxhero]

Well, I guess preventing that is why the wifes misterously die.

[Jimorian]

Canned meat merchant, indeed. :smalltongue:

[mrmcfatty]

those capchas always get you, loved the strip good to see malack and durkon are still on good terms.

[Killer Angel]

Oh, man... the last panels are pure comedy gold. :smallbiggrin:

Sadly, i think Malack's too optimistic in regard of Nale's capture.

[H Birchgrove]

Oh you Elan. :smallbiggrin: Lean? :smallamused:

Loved the last two panels too. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

"You are not an identical triplet, quadruplet, or quintuplet, are you?"

Nice. :smallbiggrin:

[rewinn]

Canned meat merchant, indeed. :smalltongue:
Canned meat ... it's MADE from capchas:smalleek:!

[mustaju]

I laughed hard at Anel :P Now, there should be a lot of stepbrothers from all those marriages, though...

[SaintRidley]

I had always wondered if Elan would consider the other possible names for potential brothers.

Now I know.

Anel.

heh.

[Defiant]

Hahaha, nice!:smallbiggrin:

[Blaznak]

Hahahahaaha! The title is great. Elan's other brother is great. The security protocol is great. ...and.... the storyline advanced with all that being background info. FANTASTIC! :)

[Username_too_lo]

Of course, everytime we've seen Sabine shapeshift it's been into a woman or man of colour, so does this mean racial profiling has come to the world of OotS?

In other news, get Haley back!

[CoffeeIncluded]

Hah! I wonder if he's got alternative procedures for people who have poor vision. :smalltongue:

[MoonCat]

Brilliant Giant, brilliant. Best thing to wake up to yet.

[Ancalagon]

Good comic. Tarquin really knows his stuff...

[Mortizal]

I don't get the canned meat reference...

[t209]

Great comic but, what does the title means?

[Sleypy]

Hah! I wonder if he's got alternative procedures for people who have poor vision. :smalltongue:

Celestial tree sloth gets summoned to reads it out loud in supernal.

[Aricandor]

Canned meat would be a reference to a product called spam.

Better known today as something else in Internet linguo.

Also, Elan and his middle school humour. It's kind of cute. :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

Spam is a variant of canned meat- I think it's a reference to how these kind of precautions don't seem to stop spambots.

[Da'Shain]

I'm pretty sure it's a spam joke. EDIT: Yup, what they ^ said.

Good to see Malack isn't just giving up, and always nice to have more examples of Tarquin's genre-savviness.

I have to say, though, Durkon and Malack are far more ... buddy-buddy than I would have figured they'd be at this point. Makes me think their relationship is likely to take a sour turn sometime in the future ...

[Squark]

Great comic but, what does the title means?

Spam is canned meat.


Ergo, the spam bot still gets through.

Also, wonderful Comic, Giant.

[t209]

Spam is a variant of canned meat- I think it's a reference to how these kind of precautions don't seem to stop spambots.

Thanks for the explanation for the title.

[Psyren]

Looks like Sabine will be captcha'd quite quickly. :smallwink:

[Jast Boris]

Precautions worthy of Tarquin :D

[danc]

very nice :smallamused: not sure how its going to catch sabine though...

[Ranzunar]

I don't get the canned meat reference...

One popular brand of canned meat is called Spam, which is also the name given to all those unnecessary emails one gets and from which the infiltration protocol on your computer should prevent. Fun fact: SPAM is actually an acronym for Shoulder Pork and Meat. Thank you History Channel documentaries and thank you Giant for another awesome strip.

Edit: So ninjad it's not even funny.

[Gwynfrid]

"I guess there could be a True Neutral brother out there named Lean or Anel or something."

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Vinsfeld]

Malack seems to really like Durkon. But we can't say the same about Elan, though.

[pearl jam]

It's late at night, so I didn't actually laugh out loud at the last box, but I did a laugh in a whisper.:smalltongue:

[Kuroimaken]

I don't get what Elan is snickering about. What's so funny about rings?

(Note: "Anel" is "ring" in Portuguese.)

[silvadel]

If demons see extra colors or extra anything, then it would be possible to design a vision test where a demon would give you a more complete answer than any human... In essence if you fail you pass -- if you pass you are the demon, kill it.

[super dark33]

That is one funny strip!

:elan::hehe... Anel....

[pendell]

One popular brand of canned meat is called Spam, which is also the name given to all those unnecessary emails one gets and from which the infiltration protocol on your computer should prevent. Fun fact: SPAM is actually an acronym for Shoulder Pork and Meat. Thank you History Channel documentaries and thank you Giant for another awesome strip.

Edit: So ninjad it's not even funny.

I had not known that is what SPAM stood for thank you.

The capcha at the end prompted an evil snicker from me. As did the 'are you human'? Tag which shows up as a registration at this very site.

Still ... may the powers that watch over OOTS grant Nale's capture and removal from the strip in short order. I have had enough of him. It takes real-time months to resolve an arc, and he's already eaten too much story time. Besides which, he's never been a real antagonist. Just a sideshow to keep us entertained while the rest of the story ticks on.

I wonder if Xykon has found his phylactery yet?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Forikroder]

very nice :smallamused: not sure how its going to catch sabine though...

Sabine may be able to fgure out a fake name by transforming but wont be able to figure out a password without taking someone down and forcing them to tell, so unless they find a guard alone she cant use a disguise to sneak past checkpoints

so if Nale teleported to an area inside the palace and not an area open to the sky Sabine will have no way to fly them out since they would ahve to apss through checkpoints to get out

[Kuroimaken]

They have darkvision, so they probably see ultraviolet.

[Berserk Knight]

Yes, Canned Meat Merchants still do get through those...

[CoffeeIncluded]

They have darkvision, so they probably see ultraviolet.

I always thought that darkvision allows someone to see infrared; they're seeing heat instead of light.

[Gift Jeraff]

Teehee, "Anel."

Though if Sabine's teleporting ability is the same as the one in the succubus description (Greater Teleport at will), I don't think the Infiltration Protocol would work. Then again, the comic has changed some monster abilities for plot reasons (namely Sabine having plane shift and Qarr having telepathy), so who knows.

[Kuroimaken]

I'm not sure you can make infrared paint, though.

[goplayer7]

Lets compromise and say that it extends both ends of the spectrum.

[ScrapperTBP]

Amazing stuff Giant. Really funny. I don't get the Anel though?

[rewinn]

I don't get what Elan is snickering about. What's so funny about rings?

(Note: "Anel" is "ring" in Portuguese.)

"Anel" in English (...or American, at least...) sounds like "Anal", which is a word guaranteed to make us unsophisticated people snicker. At least we can be grateful this won't lead to another crack pairing thread!

(However: trivia time! "Ring" is old public school slang in England for some sort of same-gender foolery. Google at own risk!)

[Belsirk]

can¿t rmember, but not all the shapeshifter can see true color, right?

anyway, very good solution to the problem, when you don't have enough wizards

[Kuroimaken]

"Anel" in English (...or American, at least...) sounds like "Anal", which is a word guaranteed to make us unsophisticated people snicker. At least we can be grateful this won't lead to another crack pairing thread!

(However: trivia time! "Ring" is old public school slang in England for some sort of same-gender foolery. Google at own risk!)

I was being sarcastic, actually. English may be a secondary language to me, but I guaran-damn-tee I'm good at it! :smalltongue:

[Faltenin]

It's really nice to see Malak demonstrating why he's capable of holding an empire together, with concise, timely orders and referring to procedures. But also keeping in mind the different logical options such as additional brothers (fool me once...) :smallsmile:

Now let's see what high level equipment he has stashed away in the chapel :smallbiggrin: and get Haley back!!! quick!!

[ScrapperTBP]

I don't get what Elan is snickering about. What's so funny about rings?

(Note: "Anel" is "ring" in Portuguese.)

Me neither. Anel stems from the latin anellus (spelling?) meaning a finger ring.

[ORione]

"Anel" in English (...or American, at least...) sounds like "Anal", which is a word guaranteed to make us unsophisticated people snicker. At least we can be grateful this won't lead to another crack pairing thread!


We're not unsophisticated! We're... classiness-challenged.

[Ron Miel]

I don't get the canned meat reference...


Great comic but, what does the title means?


It took me a minute or so to figure it out too.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think we can assume Malack has at least 1 rank in Spellcraft. Otherwise, he wouldn't know the possible range of Dimension Door.

[Dandria]

What? "Canned Meat Merchants?" What does that even mean? And what kind of lame writer names-

Oh. Oooh! I see what you did there.

Damn you Giant! :smallbiggrin:

[Firemeier]

Good one. I went "Heh heh, Anel" and then started giggling maniacally when I saw Elan do the same thing in the next panel. :smallbiggrin:

[leakingpen]

Hah! I wonder if he's got alternative procedures for people who have poor vision. :smalltongue:

Not being hired as security guards?

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

How'd you guess my password though? :smalleek:

[Hazzardevil]

The Guard is going to get it wrong, a person always get's these sort of things wrong on the first try.
It took me about 5 times to get it right.

[Orzel]

SO Capcha counters Alter Self?

Anal.
teehee

[Forikroder]

does sabine get any sort of passive true seeing or something? its possible the board has a minor illusion on it that a normal human couldnt see through but anything above that could

[Stegyre]

Another Monday morning brightened by OotS. Huzzah!


Malack seems to really like Durkon. But we can't say the same about Elan, though.
Exactly. Malack makes very clear that helping Elan was an inconsequential byproduct. Helping "Brother" Durkon, on the other hand . . . .

[Demonicbunny]

No! But he has a pair of True Neutral siblings named Lane and Neal.

However Lane and Neal were not separated at birth, did not have a sibling rivalry, ended up as a painters in the artistic coalition called Cult of Crayon, and never did anything adventurous at all.

[borg286]

Love Malak's pointing tail.

[Zigg'rrauglurr]

Spam and Captcha references for the win :smallbiggrin:

Love the infiltration protocols...

Have to love Lawful regimes, evil or otherwise.

[Nidhögg]

Nice comic. :)

Malak's movements in this episode makes the Yuan-Ti-theory seem very likely to me.

[DreadArchon]

This comic was an awesome grab-bag of little jokes. :smallbiggrin:

[Roland Itiative]

I wonder... Is the last couple of panels really showing the Infiltration Protocol coming into effect right now, or just one of those "flashbacks for the sake of the readers", like when we see Tarquin and Elan's mother getting divorced? If it's the latter, well, Malak just told a guard with the same skin colour as Sabine to initiate the Protocol. Wouldn't quite work out if that guard is Sabine.

Anyway, great strip :smallbiggrin:



I don't get what Elan is snickering about. What's so funny about rings?

(Note: "Anel" is "ring" in Portuguese.)
Cool, another Lusophone in the Playground :smalltongue: I thought the same after reading that panel, until I took the time to think on a proper English pronunciation for the word :smallsmile:

[Lurkmoar]

Ha, nice title!

[Kancsar]

good gags, now that that's over hope we get to see revived Haley. wonder if Elan will need to confess to Haley his unusual strategy to escape from Sabine (as on the boat at the end of the last arc where he told Haley about Therkla). Haley seemed OK about Therkla, who she never met, but might react much worse to the idea of Elan kissing Sabine. opportunity for a interesting mirror scene to Sabine and Nale's conversation following Elan's escape.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I wonder... Is the last couple of panels really showing the Infiltration Protocol coming into effect right now, or just one of those "flashbacks for the sake of the readers", like when we see Tarquin and Elan's mother getting divorced? If it's the latter, well, Malak just told a guard with the same skin colour as Sabine to initiate the Protocol. Wouldn't quite work out if that guard is Sabine.

Anyway, great strip :smallbiggrin:



Cool, another Lusophone in the Playground :smalltongue: I thought the same after reading that panel, until I took the time to think on a proper English pronunciation for the word :smallsmile:

Even if she new the the protocol was in effect, if she doesn't know the password or the Capcha has something magical to fool outsiders/shapechangers, she'll still be caught.

[Roland Itiative]

Even if she new the the protocol was in effect, if she doesn't know the password or the Capcha has something magical to fool outsiders/shapechangers, she'll still be caught.
My point is, if the order to activate the Protocol was given to her, she simply wouldn't obey it, and the Protocol would stay inactive. That's why I started off wondering if the last two panels actually correlate to events going on right now in-universe, it's all a moot point if they are.

It all depends on too much "what ifs", though, so I'm probably just reading too much into it :smalltongue:

[Who149]

Amazing strip! Gotta love the Canned Meat joke XD

Interesting fact: This arc is now roughly 100 strips long (since the first comic Enor and Ganjii attacked)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Amazing strip! Gotta love the Canned Meat joke XD

Interesting fact: This arc is now roughly 100 strips long (since the first comic Enor and Ganjii attacked)

The arc started after they reached the continent. This sub-arc is about 100 strips long.

[Forikroder]

My point is, if the order to activate the Protocol was given to her, she simply wouldn't obey it, and the Protocol would stay inactive. That's why I started off wondering if the last two panels actually correlate to events going on right now in-universe, it's all a moot point if they are.

It all depends on too much "what ifs", though, so I'm probably just reading too much into it :smalltongue:

what if there were 2 other guards there when Malack gave the order?

[Laws of Chaos]

Great comic Giant!

The last panel has moved into my top 5 of all-time favorites.

[Vectner]

Those damn bots keep trying to get in and peddle their canned meat!

[Forikroder]

i think this comic also provides evidence that Malack is Neutral instead of Evil, Elan and Durkon were both in the same sort of position but instead of treating both the same (ie reminding both he wasnt doing it for them) he tells that to Elan and tells Durkon he was glad to help which i think is pretty neutral action

[FireDrake]

Great comic. I love the joke in the title. :D


I laughed hard at Anel :P Now, there should be a lot of stepbrothers from all those marriages, though...

I'm not sure whether or not you're joking here. But Tarquin once said that he hadn't had any other children, because he was worried that they'd turn out like Nale. So don't expect to see Nale and Elan's step-siblings any time soon.

[ORione]

Great comic. I love the joke in the title. :D



I'm not sure whether or not you're joking here. But Tarquin once said that he hadn't had any other children, because he was worried that they'd turn out like Nale. So don't expect to see Nale and Elan's step-siblings any time soon.

Step-siblings, not half-siblings. I think mustaju is saying it's likely some of Tarquin's brides already had children.

[Gilphon]

Note that, for future reference, the other possible anagram names would be Lena, Nael, Neal, Laen, Lane, Enal, Enla, Anle, Elna and Alne.

[Who149]

i think this comic also provides evidence that Malack is Neutral instead of Evil, Elan and Durkon were both in the same sort of position but instead of treating both the same (ie reminding both he wasnt doing it for them) he tells that to Elan and tells Durkon he was glad to help which i think is pretty neutral action

I think that's more of Durkon and Malack being good friends then any tell of Alignment.

[Ron Miel]

I'm not sure whether or not you're joking here. But Tarquin once said that he hadn't had any other children, because he was worried that they'd turn out like Nale. So don't expect to see Nale and Elan's step-siblings any time soon.


I think we've possibly already seen one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0226.html).




Note that, for future reference, the other possible anagram names would be Lena, Nael, Neal, Laen, Lane, Enal, Enla, Anle, Elna and Alne.

You missed Alen and Nela.

[pendell]

I wonder... Is the last couple of panels really showing the Infiltration Protocol coming into effect right now, or just one of those "flashbacks for the sake of the readers", like when we see Tarquin and Elan's mother getting divorced? If it's the latter, well, Malak just told a guard with the same skin colour as Sabine to initiate the Protocol. Wouldn't quite work out if that guard is Sabine.


Note that *three* guards answered Malack's call. Even if one of them was Sabine, the other two would put the infiltration protocol into effect.

Unless the Sabine-guard killed them the second they were off-panel, but somehow I doubt that is what transpired.

Tarquin and Sabine -- interesting references there. When will Brutus come through?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[bronnt]

I wonder... Is the last couple of panels really showing the Infiltration Protocol coming into effect right now, or just one of those "flashbacks for the sake of the readers", like when we see Tarquin and Elan's mother getting divorced? If it's the latter, well, Malak just told a guard with the same skin colour as Sabine to initiate the Protocol. Wouldn't quite work out if that guard is Sabine.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. IS that Sabine again? Who knows?

This strip made me laugh a couple of times.

:elan:Anel. heh.

[TherianTheorist]

Spam, wasting inbox space since Monty python.

[Trekkin]

Firstly, that Malack stopped to ask whether Elan knew of any other brothers that might possibly be confused with Nale was just awesome, although whether indicative of genre savvy or simple caution I don't know.

I'm curious, though. What is the latter half of Tarquin's protocol intended to stop, exactly? The passwords make sense, and I get that it's a reference to capchas, but is there in fact some type of shapeshifter that can't read or something?

[ORione]

I'm curious, though. What is the latter half of Tarquin's protocol intended to stop, exactly? The passwords make sense, and I get that it's a reference to capchas, but is there in fact some type of shapeshifter that can't read or something?

It's a joke.

[SatyreIkon]

That password joke is so bad it's hilarious :smallbiggrin:

... and how are the bets on this strip spawning any theories on possible appearances of another brother running?

[brionl]

Great comic. I love the joke in the title. :D



I'm not sure whether or not you're joking here. But Tarquin once said that he hadn't had any other children, because he was worried that they'd turn out like Nale. So don't expect to see Nale and Elan's step-siblings any time soon.

He said he didn't have any other sons. So that means we are going to see their sister, Lena.

[tcrudisi]

"Anel" in English (...or American, at least...) sounds like "Anal"

Yeah, see, I didn't get this the first few times. I realized there was a joke there, but I couldn't figure it out. The problem was my pronunciation. I was reading it as "Ah Nell".

[Anarion]

I'll admit that I read the title, went :smallconfused: started reading the thread, and then realized what the title had to do with the capcha joke. On the up side, getting one of those jokes later has a nice lightbulb turning on feeling, so I hope the Giant does NOT take all the confused people as a sign that he shouldn't make obscure jokes anymore.

Rest of the comic was great. Although I think Alen is way more likely to be the name than Lean :smalltongue:

[Taekwondodo]

Yeah, see, I didn't get this the first few times. I realized there was a joke there, but I couldn't figure it out. The problem was my pronunciation. I was reading it as "Ah Nell".

Same here.

[Gift Jeraff]

There is an older Lawful Good sister named Lean out there, but there was a misunderstanding and the birth certificate accidentally put her down as "Lien." :smalltongue:

[MesiDoomstalker]

There is an older Lawful Good sister named Lean out there, but there was a misunderstanding and the birth certificate accidentally put her down as "Lien." :smalltongue:

So Tarquin also studied under Julio Scoundrel? :smallwink:

Well, like father like son. :smallbiggrin:

[Gift Jeraff]

So Tarquin also studied under Julio Scoundrel? :smallwink:

Well, like father like son.Exactly! :smallbiggrin:

[MesiDoomstalker]

Exactly! :smallbiggrin:

Now, the question is, is she actually Tarquin's daughter or did Julio pin it on him? :smallwink: :smallamused:

[Nimrod's Son]

Yeah, I thought the same thing. IS that Sabine again? Who knows?
He's not the same colour as Sabine, so he can't be.

[Simons Mith]

I did a picture of Lean back in one of the old art threads...
Here he is... http://www.simon-smith.org/images/lean.png

[littlebottom]

ahahahhahaaaa, spam. priceless:smallbiggrin:

[weeping eagle]

I don't get what Elan is snickering about. What's so funny about rings?

(Note: "Anel" is "ring" in Portuguese.)Joking aside, we call it an "anus" because the appropriate muscle is ring-shaped.

[Thia]

I think we can assume Malack has at least 1 rank in Spellcraft. Otherwise, he wouldn't know the possible range of Dimension Door.

You mean there are casters without ranks in Spellcraft?
*considers Durkon's failure to take Knowledge (Religion)*
Um. Nevermind, then.

[Nimrod's Son]

Joking aside, we call it an "anus" because the appropriate muscle is ring-shaped.
Not to mention that "ring" is common slang for the anus, at least in the UK. So even if you read it as "ring" in the first place, it's still essentially exactly the same joke. :smallamused:

[GalenDev]

I seriously have trouble with those registration/vision check things. I often have to hit the audio button if one's available. My eyes... really aren't what they used to be.

Great punchline, though.

[rbetieh]

Hah, they have an I.P. ....I wonder if they have a TCP, UDP and FTP? :smallbiggrin:

[t209]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html
How many of you noticed the word "zebra" in the last panel.

[Peelee]

Fun fact: SPAM is actually an acronym for Shoulder Pork and Meat. Thank you .

No, that's not confirmed. The version I've always hear, condensed form of "spiced ham," makes much more sense (did a quick google search for reference - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spam site apears reputable). Normally, I wouldn't much care if neither version can be confirmed, but why on earth would a company name a product "Shoulder Pork And Meat?" That implies that the shoulder is not meat, and pork already IS a type of meat, so there's both a redundancy and an implication of nastiness in there (Span IS made of pork shoulder and other hams). And in the last several years, my estimation of the History Chanel's educational worth has been plummeting.

/endthreadjack

[HandofShadows]

Excellent. So much good going on at the same time. :smallcool:

[Ron Miel]

Oh, there's lot's of stories about the origin of SPAM

- SPiced American Meat
- Supply Pressed American Meat
- Specially Prepared Assorted Meats
- Serving People Assoprted Meat

to name a few.

[Echonian]

Good comic. It managed to tie in plot relevance on multiple issues AND have a good (if cheesy) joke.

Although if the joke really IS a depiction of what they're doing...then my real surprise would probably come from being impressed that they found enough Guards to...guard a palace that ALSO are capable of going through that process intact.

Because if they weren't at least mostly able to, every time this is started you would probably lose far more guards than can easily be replaced. They aren't entirely without worth, after all.

[dps]

I think that's more of Durkon and Malack being good friends then any tell of Alignment.

I agree. Even if Malack is a Lawful Good Cleric (unlikely), he could still be happy to help his friend and fellow LG Cleric, Durkon, and view helping Elan, who he doesn't know well, as just a by-product. Or similarly, even if he's Chaotic Evil (also unlikely--he may or may not be evil, but he almost certainly isn't Chaotic), he could still be glad to help his friend.

What's possibly more telling about his alignment is that he states that he wants to see justice done rather than saying that he wants revenge. A strong desire for justice can be an indication of LN alignment (though it's not exclusive to LN characters).


He said he didn't have any other sons. So that means we are going to see their sister, Lena.

To bad, 'cause if there was a brother named Lena, we could have some "Boy Named Sue" jokes. A Johnny Cash references are cool.

[dps]

Good comic. It managed to tie in plot relevance on multiple issues AND have a good (if cheesy) joke.

Although if the joke really IS a depiction of what they're doing...then my real surprise would probably come from being impressed that they found enough Guards to...guard a palace that ALSO are capable of going through that process intact.

Because if they weren't at least mostly able to, every time this is started you would probably lose far more guards than can easily be replaced. They aren't entirely without worth, after all.

You don't have to kill everyone who doesn't pass, just detain them.

An apparantly true story: During the Battle of the Bulge in WWII, the Germans used some commando-type troops to go behind Allied lines and spread confusion, doing things like cutting telegraph lines and mis-directing military convoys. American soldiers realized what was happening, and tried to weed out any infiltrators by asking them trivia questions about American popular culture. One American general was detained by MPs for several hours because he didn't know who played 3rd base for the New York Yankees.

[Ridureyu]

SO...

Nale appears in front of Tarquin, kills him, shaves his beard, dyes his hair gray...

[Whiffet]

Haley should be restored soon? Yes!

Gotta love Infiltration Protocol. :smallbiggrin: This joke alone makes it worth constantly putting up with that on the internet.

[Ron Miel]

One American general was detained by MPs for several hours because he didn't know who played 3rd base for the New York Yankees.


No that's wrong.


Who's on first.

[Gwynfrid]

Ah, I missed that one at first:

"Shame aboot tha teapot, tha". Durkon, caught right in the middle of a neat little white lie ! :smalltongue:

[Asthix]

so that's what that question was for when you sign up to the forums! Mystery solved!

[ORione]

Ah, I missed that one at first:

"Shame aboot tha teapot, tha". Durkon, caught right in the middle of a neat little white lie ! :smalltongue:

And here I thought he was smiling because he was happy that Malack saved them.

[Echonian]

You don't have to kill everyone who doesn't pass, just detain them.

An apparantly true story: During the Battle of the Bulge in WWII, the Germans used some commando-type troops to go behind Allied lines and spread confusion, doing things like cutting telegraph lines and mis-directing military convoys. American soldiers realized what was happening, and tried to weed out any infiltrators by asking them trivia questions about American popular culture. One American general was detained by MPs for several hours because he didn't know who played 3rd base for the New York Yankees.

Yeah, you could in theory detain them - but I don't think that would be feasible for such a large number of people failing the test as might be possible under what I described. It would take valuable time away from their primary job at the time of actually searching for Nale and Sabine.

Edit: Not that I think its likely that many will fail - Tarquin seems intelligent enough that he probably chose guards for the Palace that are at least intelligent enough to pass the test (at least the vast majority of them).

[ss49]

Forget all of the backronyms. Hormel can tell you- and has, back in the Before Internet days- that SPiced hAM is the origin of the name Spam(tm).

[SamBurke]

lolz. How effective would that be, though?

[gamingfreak10]

lulz, lean and anel
there's also Alen and Lena (sister?)

[Raistlin82]

Note that, for future reference, the other possible anagram names would be Lena, Nael, Neal, Laen, Lane, Enal, Enla, Anle, Elna and Alne.

You missed Nela and Alen. Also, you said Alne twice.

[ORione]

You missed Nela and Alen. Also, you said Alne twice.

He did miss those two, but he said Alne once. He also said Anle.

[martianmister]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html
How many of you noticed the word "zebra" in the last panel.

Did you mean ze#r5raS7a? How is that makes a Zebra?

[Ashadar]

Ahahahahhaha... I actually laughed at "Anel" before I read the panel with Elan laughing about it. I just stopped reading and laughed. Rofl. It was really funny when I saw Elan snickering about the same thing afterwards. :smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

Elan has 24 siblings:
aeln
aenl
alen
alne
anel
anle
ealn
eanl
elan
elna
enal
enla
laen
lane
lean
lena
lnae
lnea
nael
nale
neal
nela
nlae
nlea

[Whiffet]

Elan has 24 siblings:
-snip-
elan
-snip-

Might want to take that one out. :smallwink:

[The_Firenail]

lulz, lean and anel
there's also Alen and Lena (sister?)

That's Lena Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Park) and her Canadian relative Alan Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Park).

Oh, and on the password issue, does anyone see this? (http://www.explainxkcd.com/2011/08/10/password-strength/)

[Adeptus]

Deliciously awful mr. Giant :biggrin:

[Akrilon]

Might want to take that one out. :smallwink:


so 23 sibilings, each one with their own different alignment and personality according to their parents.

Elan is extreme one end, Nale the other, so who is the true neutral one?

[slayerx]

Elan's true neutral brother most likely has a mustache

[Kuroimaken]

Not enough alignments, and some names don't make sense either. :smalltongue:

That said, I'd guess the Chaotic Neutral brother has a mohawk or something.

[WickedWizard17]

YES! NEW OOTS! SOLVED THE CLIFFHANGER! I was worried we'd switch back to Roy and Belkar. Malack seemed unnecessarily (at least, according to what we know so far) unfriendly. But YAY we'll get Haley back!!!!!! I've missed her so. And HAHAHA Infiltration Protocol . . . .

Great comic, Giant! Keep up the good work and regular updates! This is the one thing makes Mondays livable . .



I'd guess the Chaotic Neutral brother has a mohawk or something.

Nah, the moustache :smallwink:

[enderlord99]

I think Elan and Nale do have a true-neutral brother, but his name is "Bob" (or some other palendrome), and, as for his class, he is a factotum.:smalltongue:

[irenicObserver]

Hah! I wonder if he's got alternative procedures for people who have poor vision. :smalltongue:

He's runnign an evil empire, it's most likely utilitarian and makes no accomodations for the disabled.

[The Pilgrim]

Really love the pun about the anti-spam security (and his lack of efficiency)

Nice how Malack is totally indiferent to Elan, but is happy to have helped Durkon.

[Burner28]

True Neutral brother, indeed!:smalltongue:

[Forikroder]

I think that's more of Durkon and Malack being good friends then any tell of Alignment.

im not saying its end all be all evidence, but it does hint at neutrality since his actions towards 2 good characters are different

you could also say his willingingness to be such a firm friend with a good character is again a score agaisnt him being evil

its not really that huge evidence but its one more tick on the neutral colomn

[rewinn]

does sabine get any sort of passive true seeing or something? its possible the board has a minor illusion on it that a normal human couldnt see through but anything above that could
You raise a good point: how does the captcha help against shapechangers?

Answer: what looks like a Captcha is a Symbol Of True Form! This variation is a specialized form of Symbol Of Stun that disables the shapechanging area of the brain, compelling a reversion to the reader's original form. It has no effect on non-shape-changers, which is why the majority of OOTS-readers noticed no effect.

[Gift Jeraff]

The LG brother has a full beard.
The TN brother has a shaved head.
The CE brother has a handlebar moustache.
NG, LN, CN, and NE are sisters.

[Whiffet]

You raise a good point: how does the captcha help against shapechangers?

Answer: what looks like a Captcha is a Symbol Of True Form! This variation is a specialized form of Symbol Of Stun that disables the shapechanging area of the brain, compelling a reversion to the reader's original form. It has no effect on non-shape-changers, which is why the majority of OOTS-readers noticed no effect.

That explains why I always have wings and horns after I create an account on a site.

... I'm sorry, did I say something? No, of course I didn't, move along.

[Gusion]

Good strip.

And Malack is doing the right thing. Even though it is likely Nale and Sabine are long gone (likely casting a teleport scroll after the dimension door), it can't be assumed. Always got to assume that they are still around.

I wonder if our shoeless stabby stab shorty is going to find Nale's "base" and kill him and Sabine but also die in the process... maybe saving sir meowsalot in the process. That would wrap up things nicely and let Belkar go out with a bang... err, well, a stab.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Good strip.

And Malack is doing the right thing. Even though it is likely Nale and Sabine are long gone (likely casting a teleport scroll after the dimension door), it can't be assumed. Always got to assume that they are still around.

I wonder if our shoeless stabby stab shorty is going to find Nale's "base" and kill him and Sabine but also die in the process... maybe saving sir meowsalot in the process. That would wrap up things nicely and let Belkar go out with a bang... err, well, a stab.

How dare you dishonor Lord Scruffy's most honorable and prestigious name! HEATHEN! :smalltongue:

[theNater]

Did you mean ze#r5raS7a? How is that makes a Zebra?
Occasionally, people will start with a word, then mutate it into a password. For example, someone could start with:

zebra

Then change the b into a 5 for:

ze5ra

Then throw in a #r between the e and the 5, and append a S7a to the back to get:

ze#r5raS7a

Having that word inside helps the user remember it.

[Kuroimaken]

im not saying its end all be all evidence, but it does hint at neutrality since his actions towards 2 good characters are different

you could also say his willingingness to be such a firm friend with a good character is again a score agaisnt him being evil

its not really that huge evidence but its one more tick on the neutral colomn

I think his alignment is actually fairly well-established given how he prattles on about gods of death being neutral when he and Durkon first start chatting about the topic.

[Forealms]

I think his alignment is actually fairly well-established given how he prattles on about gods of death being neutral when he and Durkon first start chatting about the topic.

Nothing gets an argument started faster than saying someone's alignment is well-established. :smalltongue:

[Kuroimaken]

Neutrality is the toughest to establish, actually. Wishy-washy evil or crummy good aren't enough.

[Deuce]

"You are not an identical triplet, quadruplet, or quintuplet, are you?"

Nice. :smallbiggrin:

Still holding out for a sister named Lena.

[t209]

Occasionally, people will start with a word, then mutate it into a password. For example, someone could start with:

zebra

Then change the b into a 5 for:

ze5ra

Then throw in a #r between the e and the 5, and append a S7a to the back to get:

ze#r5raS7a

Having that word inside helps the user remember it.
You figured it out!

[Faramir]

That was a good, very unexpected, laugh.

[Gusion]

Neutrality is the toughest to establish, actually. Wishy-washy evil or crummy good aren't enough.

I think Lawful Neutral is the most likely. Not only for his argument on the neutrality of Nergal, but also his response to Tiamat - how the Empire is building a strong central government. (#737)

Note that he also chooses to not eat the "evil" food served at the State Dinner. He claims he needs a special diet due to his frail health, but that may or may not be true. He could also just choose not to eat the "evil" food but not object enough if others choose to partake (a neutral act). (#743)

And again, he displays his personal distaste for "such displays of force" (#764) - but obviously not enough to fight against them.

What evidence do you have to indicate he's Lawful Evil?

G

P.S. (to all) The guards aren't likely to do much good besides setting off an alarm. See how use they were at the end of #722...

[Sir Conkey]

Elan saying Anel didn't make me laugh out loud. Elan laughing at it however DID make me laugh out loud.

[Forikroder]

Yeah, you could in theory detain them - but I don't think that would be feasible for such a large number of people failing the test as might be possible under what I described. It would take valuable time away from their primary job at the time of actually searching for Nale and Sabine.

Edit: Not that I think its likely that many will fail - Tarquin seems intelligent enough that he probably chose guards for the Palace that are at least intelligent enough to pass the test (at least the vast majority of them).

most likely Tarquin has guards constantly drilled about the safety protocols and the passwords to make sure every guard remembers his password

and of course tehy all have there handbook for easy refrence so all the gurads would really have to memorise is the stuff like passwords

[naspratt]

That's rendezvous (or rendez-vous), not rendevouz. Not particularly important.

[Nephrahim]

And on the continuing question of "Is Malck a lizard or snake" he continues to lean while walking in very odd ways that would cause him to walk on his robe.

I'm starting to believe it can't be an art error.

[factotum]

im not saying its end all be all evidence, but it does hint at neutrality since his actions towards 2 good characters are different

you could also say his willingingness to be such a firm friend with a good character is again a score agaisnt him being evil

its not really that huge evidence but its one more tick on the neutral colomn

No to all of the above, frankly. Roy acts differently toward Elan than he does toward, say, Haley--does that make him Neutral? In fact, if everyone in the strip who behaves differently toward two different characters must be Neutral, then they pretty much all are!

Friendship--there is nothing in the alignment system that says an Evil character cannot form a friendship with a Good one, or even fall in love with one. In OotS itself we have an example of a Chaotic Good character actually *marrying* a Lawful Evil one and having children (Elan's mother and Tarquin, respectively)! The marriage may not have lasted, true, but even if you assume Tarquin did it for the lulz, Elan's mother must have genuinely loved him enough to marry him in the first place.

So no, it isn't "one more tick on the neutral column" in any way, shape or form.

[talkamancer]

Anel - he he he.

[neoseph7]

I feel like there is a perfectly good "stuff posing as meat" joke to be made with respect to the title

[Crod]

"Anel". Ha ha. How long did you wait to use that one, Rich?

[Kuroimaken]

I think Lawful Neutral is the most likely. Not only for his argument on the neutrality of Nergal, but also his response to Tiamat - how the Empire is building a strong central government. (#737)

Note that he also chooses to not eat the "evil" food served at the State Dinner. He claims he needs a special diet due to his frail health, but that may or may not be true. He could also just choose not to eat the "evil" food but not object enough if others choose to partake (a neutral act). (#743)

And again, he displays his personal distaste for "such displays of force" (#764) - but obviously not enough to fight against them.

What evidence do you have to indicate he's Lawful Evil?

G

P.S. (to all) The guards aren't likely to do much good besides setting off an alarm. See how use they were at the end of #722...

I was actually arguing towards his neutrality rather than evil. My response was towards the comment that nothing starts a discussion faster than saying one's alignment is clearly defined.

You make good arguments towards Lawful Neutral.

[hamishspence]

A possible argument in favour of Neutrality

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12094574&postcount=9

specifically:


While it does not change the nature of their acts, there is a certain degree of "when in Rome" going on with their actions there. Would they have attacked Roy if it weren't legal to do so? Probably not. Therefore, it is not as indicative of their overall alignment as one might initially think.

Applying this to Malack's attempt to have the Empress kill Haley, V, and Elan- a case can be made that- in an evil environment, evil acts become somewhat less alignment-indicative.

[Abrexa]

I'm sorry, but I must ask - was that last bit about Captcha in the comic connected to Captcha thread I made recently in Forum Issues forum? :smallsmile:

[Burner28]

A possible argument in favour of Neutrality

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12094574&postcount=9

specifically:



Applying this to Malack's attempt to have the Empress kill Haley, V, and Elan- a case can be made that- in an evil environment, evil acts become somewhat less alignment-indicative.

True, one evil act does in theory not automatically make one Evil aligned though showing repeated willingness to do that would change one's alignment from Neutral/Good to Evil, regardless of environment as people are still responsible for their actions.

[hamishspence]

Yup. We haven't seen much in the way of acts from Malack- so his alignment is a bit more "up in the air".

A character who regularly commits (very minor) evil acts for Good ends- could be justified as Neutral using Heroes of Horror-

but I'd argue that no amount of Good acts will equal repeated major evil acts (absent repentance).

[Kuroimaken]

Omission is a form of evil, it could be argued.

Of course, good and evil are subjective, whereas alignments are objective. It's an endless discussion.

[rewinn]

... I'm sorry, did I say something? No, of course I didn't, move along.

(misses a Will save)

...moving along. Did you say something?

[Juhn]

I liked the joke, but I can't help thinking it would have been better used in a situation where they're looking for a Modron or an Inevitable or something. But then, I doubt those guys are going to show up in a big enough role to warrant a punchline of their own.

[Zonkerbl]

Modron, heh.

Oh, how I miss Nordom. I wish they'd make a Planescape:Torment sequel.

[Frogwarrior]

Ok, so, I am noobie - which offspring, exactly, is Malack referring to?

[Stegyre]

Ok, so, I am noobie - which offspring, exactly, is Malack referring to?
The three mentioned in Panel 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), which Nale is alleged to have killed.

[Forikroder]

True, one evil act does in theory not automatically make one Evil aligned though showing repeated willingness to do that would change one's alignment from Neutral/Good to Evil, regardless of environment as people are still responsible for their actions.

i disagree, in Malacks environment he doesnt really have any opportunity to really do any good actions without severly inconveniencing himself

so if hes neutral, and he has equal inclination to do good and evil acts, then in a position where predominatanly evil action opportunitys arrise then he would be doing more evil then good

and we dont really know what he does on a daily routine, we really havent seen much of what he does at all, weve pretty mcuh only see a few rare circumstances (tea with durkon and bringing in his mortal enemy to the queens room and meeting his mortal enemy on a balcony)

[Kuroimaken]

i disagree, in Malacks environment he doesnt really have any opportunity to really do any good actions without severly inconveniencing himself

so if hes neutral, and he has equal inclination to do good and evil acts, then in a position where predominatanly evil action opportunitys arrise then he would be doing more evil then good

and we dont really know what he does on a daily routine, we really havent seen much of what he does at all, weve pretty mcuh only see a few rare circumstances (tea with durkon and bringing in his mortal enemy to the queens room and meeting his mortal enemy on a balcony)

Here's how I break down the Good v. Evil, Law v. Chaos spectrum.

Good: Actively seeks to thwart evil.
Neutral: Does not seek out opportunities to do evil (or only does it on occasion), and/or does not seek out opportunities to do good (or only does it on occasion). A character that only acts according to his whims is often neutral (provided his whims are neither so vile that being good on occasion is a drop on the ocean and vice-versa).
Evil: Actively seeks to bring people suffering.

Law: Actively seeks to uphold and create order.
Neutral: Acts according to necessity. Does not seek to destroy order nor seeks to provoke chaos.
Chaos: Actively reviles order.

[hamishspence]

"Actively seeks to bring people suffering" is something of a rarity in Evil characters.

It's more common for it to be "actively pursues their own ends (that involve people suffering, excessively, as a byproduct)".

The ruthless businessman so driven by pursuit of profit that he is willing to indulge in practices that bring suffering to many people, if they're profitable enough, is one example.

There's probably numerous others.

[North_Ranger]

You don't have to kill everyone who doesn't pass, just detain them.

An apparantly true story: During the Battle of the Bulge in WWII, the Germans used some commando-type troops to go behind Allied lines and spread confusion, doing things like cutting telegraph lines and mis-directing military convoys. American soldiers realized what was happening, and tried to weed out any infiltrators by asking them trivia questions about American popular culture. One American general was detained by MPs for several hours because he didn't know who played 3rd base for the New York Yankees.

I believe that would be general Omar Bradley. And apparently the question was about the capital of Illinois. General Bradley said "Springfield", but he got arrested because the soldier insisted it was "Chicago".

[Kuroimaken]

The pursue of profit itself is neutral (money can be used to either end). So is the motivation when he chooses to profit at the expense of the innocent. The choice itself, however, implies a genuine desire to harm (assuming an alternative exists. Acts of evil under coercion are more towards neutral territory, provided there is no delight or byproduct in the act itself, and there is some measure of regret. Refusing to buckle to coercion is in itself a good act, as it puts you in the line to keep another from being harmed).

Think of it in logical terms.

Motivation/Means/End Result is Good: Good act.
One of the above is Evil, the others are Good: Neutral Act.
Two of Motivation/Means/End Result is Evil: Evil act.

A few examples:

A Paladin seeks to end a plague out of the kindness of his heart, and distributes a medicine concocted from the tears of a saint, obtained at great personal sacrfice. Undoubtedly a good act.
Same situation, but it turns out the medicine itself worsens the plague instead, but no one realizes it until it's too late: neutral act if the paladin atones, evil otherwise.

A merchant seeks to end the same plague, with the same medicine, except he wants to sell it to make a profit and refuses to lower his prices: neutral act (greed is inherently evil, and profit for profit's sake is greed).

Yet another merchant seeks to end the plague by distilling the blood of near-terminal cases in a process that prolongs their suffering and forces them through excrutiating pain, selling the results: Evil act.

Note that under this system, it is harder to do good than it is to do evil, as good implies a certain degree of selflessness. Mixed motivations more commonly lead towards good acts than evil unless the motivation for evil is stronger.

[Harbajar]

Took me a moment to get the Title joke. :smallcool:

Complex passwords are fun, much like Elan's non-existent 3rd and 4th brothers!

[Forikroder]

The pursue of profit itself is neutral (money can be used to either end). So is the motivation when he chooses to profit at the expense of the innocent. The choice itself, however, implies a genuine desire to harm (assuming an alternative exists. Acts of evil under coercion are more towards neutral territory, provided there is no delight or byproduct in the act itself, and there is some measure of regret. Refusing to buckle to coercion is in itself a good act, as it puts you in the line to keep another from being harmed).

Think of it in logical terms.

Motivation/Means/End Result is Good: Good act.
One of the above is Evil, the others are Good: Neutral Act.
Two of Motivation/Means/End Result is Evil: Evil act.

A few examples:

A Paladin seeks to end a plague out of the kindness of his heart, and distributes a medicine concocted from the tears of a saint, obtained at great personal sacrfice. Undoubtedly a good act.
Same situation, but it turns out the medicine itself worsens the plague instead, but no one realizes it until it's too late: neutral act if the paladin atones, evil otherwise.

A merchant seeks to end the same plague, with the same medicine, except he wants to sell it to make a profit and refuses to lower his prices: neutral act (greed is inherently evil, and profit for profit's sake is greed).

Yet another merchant seeks to end the plague by distilling the blood of near-terminal cases in a process that prolongs their suffering and forces them through excrutiating pain, selling the results: Evil act.

Note that under this system, it is harder to do good than it is to do evil, as good implies a certain degree of selflessness. Mixed motivations more commonly lead towards good acts than evil unless the motivation for evil is stronger.

i think that some of your examples are wrong

for instance, even if the paladin is doing something that worsens the plague if he does it in innocence it shouldnt count as an evil act

even if teh bussiness man is helping solve the plague it shouldnt be considered a good act if hes selling it at prices people cant afford (in this situation he should sell it for at cost at best for it to be good) and even if people have to suffer to make the cure it doesnt make it immediately an evil act, it depends on how he then distributes it and what alternatives there were for making the vaccine and how long each one would take

[Willis888]

Modron, heh.

Oh, how I miss Nordom. I wish they'd make a Planescape:Torment sequel.


"I think, therefore I am . . . I think?"

I loved that line :smallbiggrin:

[brionl]

"I think, therefore I am . . . I think?"

I loved that line :smallbiggrin:

"Renee Descartes, you've just ensured your place in philosophical history. Are you going to Disneyland?"
"I think not." *poof*
"Where did he go?"

[Shoelessgdowar]

i think that some of your examples are wrong

for instance, even if the paladin is doing something that worsens the plague if he does it in innocence it shouldnt count as an evil act

even if teh bussiness man is helping solve the plague it shouldnt be considered a good act if hes selling it at prices people cant afford (in this situation he should sell it for at cost at best for it to be good) and even if people have to suffer to make the cure it doesnt make it immediately an evil act, it depends on how he then distributes it and what alternatives there were for making the vaccine and how long each one would take

I think you missed the point, the examples point out the 3 factors: Intent, Means, Ends

If the Intent is Good, the Means are Good, and the Ends are Good the act is good
If the Intent is Good, the Means are Good, and the Ends are Bad, the act is Neutral
If the Intent is Good, the Means are Bad, and the Ends are Good, the act is Neutral
If the Intent is Bad, the Means are Good, and the Ends are Good, the act is Neutral
If the Intent is Bad, the Means are Bad, and the Ends are Good, the act is Evil
If the Intent is Good, the Means are Bad, and the Ends are Bad, the act is Evil (This is the definition of the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions)
If the Intent is Bad, the Means are Good, and the Ends are Bad, the act is Evil
If the Intent is Bad, the Means are Bad, and the Ends are Bad, the act is Really Evil!!!

Therefore it is far easier to do an Evil deed then a good one, but Neutral Deeds are still moderately prevalent.

I'm not saying I completely agree with this, but especially for Roleplaying and Storytelling/Comic Standpoints, it is a decent way to judge the good, neutrality, or evil of an act.

Personally I think True Neutral is a false alignment, as no being can be completely devoid of positive negative intent, means, and ends. The only things that can be True Neutral in my opinion are things, that do nothing, have no intent or actions, and are never acted upon, because if acted upon they have some immediate alignment shift since they suddenly have some action that could be seen as good or evil or lawful or chaotic. In fact even things can't be True Neutral as inaction is orderly and therefore lawful.

[factotum]

"Actively seeks to bring people suffering" is something of a rarity in Evil characters.

It's more common for it to be "actively pursues their own ends (that involve people suffering, excessively, as a byproduct)".

I always think of Evil as being people who pursue their own ends without *caring* how it affects other people. Most of them won't go out of their way to make sure other people suffer for them to get what they want (although some will, of course--see Xykon), but if a bunch of people *do* end up suffering, they simply won't care. A Good person, even a relatively selfish one, will generally try to take into consideration how their actions affect others before going ahead and doing something.

[Icedaemon]

The arc started after they reached the continent. This sub-arc is about 100 strips long.

I'd say that sub-arc is not quite accurate. Elan and elf's capture and trial was one sub-arc, which ended at the 'I'm your father', after which the current sub-arc began (though even that could be split apart into exploring the Empire of Blood and Linear Guild's attack).


I always think of Evil as being people who pursue their own ends without *caring* how it affects other people. Most of them won't go out of their way to make sure other people suffer for them to get what they want (although some will, of course--see Xykon), but if a bunch of people *do* end up suffering, they simply won't care. A Good person, even a relatively selfish one, will generally try to take into consideration how their actions affect others before going ahead and doing something.

While I agree with the former half, the second carries the problem of thinking in binary extremes. Neutral people pursue their own ends, but still recognize and account for how their actions would affect others. Not being even a little selfish is what 'good' is about. Doing what's best for oneself while taking care not to cause too much suffering among others is the norm, something people are expected to do, not a good deed. An actually good person, while not adverse to gaining something for oneself, will focus on the betterment of innocents/society as a whole.


Yeah, see, I didn't get this the first few times. I realized there was a joke there, but I couldn't figure it out. The problem was my pronunciation. I was reading it as "Ah Nell".

As did I. I believe the 'problem', is not being amused by something so juvenile can be called that, is partially due to English not being the first language for most if not all people who read the name differently - even those who are reasonably adept at a language tend to first read new names according to how they would pronounce those syllables in their native language, only giving thought to a name's pronunciation if it is significant or pointed out in some manner. A second-hand joke is less amusing.

In reply to Shoelessgodofwar:
While I do agree, mostly, with the logic you posited in regards to deeds, I cannot understand why you would feel that True Neutral is a false alignment. A person's morality might not be determinable by the standard good-evil lawful-chaotic sets. Being devoid of positive or negative intent is not necessary because living things, not to mention sapients, are not one-dimensional. One with a mix of negative and positive ideals and intentions, who does not particularly bow to system of laws/traiditions yet does not oppose it either, is True Neutral. Obeying laws is not in itself lawful - it's just staying out of trouble. Actively supporting and reinforcing laws is lawful. Actively opposing an orderly system is chaotic. Animals are considered True Neutral because they are (regarded as, at least) incapable of wholly comprehending or caring about morality and order (though I for one do believe that herd animals do understand and have rudimentary systems of order not always wholly based on instinct). If anything, 'Chaotic Good' is an empty alignment, as being opposed to any system of laws or honour conflicts with intending to improve on the lives of the people.

[Kuroimaken]

If anything, 'Chaotic Good' is an empty alignment, as being opposed to any system of laws or honour conflicts with intending to improve on the lives of the people.

This would normally be true under a lawful neutral or lawful good regime (where the laws are made both to uphold the order AND to ensure that people have a fair livelihood), but not so in a lawful evil regime (where the laws are made to ensure people do not rebel). It's why Robin Hood is the archetypical Chaotic Good character: he seeks to overthrow a regime that oppresses those of lower birth while trying to make their lives better. Chaotic Good characters typically have been wronged by the system in some way, and that's why they despise laws so fiercely. Note that a CG character may openly disregard or berate the law and authority established, but does not necessarily need to bring it down (as doing that would actually make people's lives worse).

EDIT: It's also noteworthy that a chaotic character may have a code of honor, and may be opposed to governments alone OR dogma alone. Just as good is not so hard to uphold that a minor act of evil here and there will make a character cold and twisted, Chaos and Law are not strict that one cannot abide the other in SOME fashion.

[Gusion]

"The Nine Alignments

Lawful Good: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Lawful good combines honor with compassion.

Neutral Good: A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them.

Neutral good means doing what is good and right without bias for or against order.

Chaotic Good: A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he's kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.

Chaotic good combines a good heart with a free spirit.

Lawful Neutral: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.

Lawful neutral means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.

Neutral: A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn't feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos (and thus neutral is sometimes called “true neutral”). Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character probably thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she's not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.

Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.

Neutral means you act naturally in any situation, without prejudice or compulsion.

Chaotic Neutral: A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those others suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as he is to cross it.

Chaotic neutral represents freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.

Lawful Evil: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.

Lawful evil represents methodical, intentional, and organized evil.

Neutral Evil: A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusions that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn't have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.

Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.

Neutral evil represents pure evil without honor and without variation.

Chaotic Evil: A chaotic evil character does what his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are likely to be poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.

Chaotic evil represents the destruction not only of beauty and life, but also of the order on which beauty and life depend."

I think those are much better descriptions. They're from Pathfinder, which is kinda like D&D 3.75 - it branched off to avoid the stupidity of version 4 rules. It is what I actually play now instead, since they fixed a lot of the broken things in 3.5 rules. Quote Source: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalRules.html

[factotum]

An actually good person, while not adverse to gaining something for oneself, will focus on the betterment of innocents/society as a whole.


The problem there is that it implies a the *most good* people will care not one whit for their own preservation so long as what they're doing helps someone else, and I think that's slipping over the line into Lawful Stupid territory. Maybe I'm too much of a cynic, but I don't believe that anyone can ever purely hold someone else's interests ahead of their own, no matter what!

[enderlord99]

Was the titular canned meat merchant a warforged?:smalltongue:

[JSSheridan]

Was the titular canned meat merchant a warforged?:smalltongue:

Why would a meat merchant be sealed in a can to start with?

:smalltongue:

[bronnt]

This would normally be true under a lawful neutral or lawful good regime (where the laws are made both to uphold the order AND to ensure that people have a fair livelihood), but not so in a lawful evil regime (where the laws are made to ensure people do not rebel).

I think it's even possible to be Chaotic within a Lawful Good regime, because the regime isn't going to correct all injustice, just those that can be reasonably corrected. You can still be a Robin Hood within such a society. While the government is going to attempt to ease the suffering of the poor, or at least provide them an environment where they can succeed, there will be poor people, and there will still be miserly rich people who refuse to share their wealth beyond what's necessary to pay in taxes.

A Chaotic Good character will see the rich man who hoards his legally obtained wealth and the starving mother, and he won't care about how the legal situation works, he'll steal from the rich and give to the poor (after deducting reasonable expenses, of course :smallwink: ). He'll also likely be a proponent of vigilante justice. If he knows there's a murderer or a selfish burgler on the loose, he won't wait for a search and seizure warrant, he'll barge in, beat the bad guy to a pulp, and deliver his own punishment (perhaps delivering him to the authorities perhaps not). All that is required is that he is certain he is right, and that he's not harming anyone other than the guilty. In short, he's Batman. (Superman is clearly the idealistic Lawful Good superhero)

As an adventurer, he'll be many things. He'll offer bribes instead of waiting for the formalities. He'll steal the magic artifact he needs to slay the monster, rather than going on a quest for the NPC that owns it in exchange-after all, there's a greater good. He may even bargain with some villains in order to topple the real big bad, assuming he still feels he can round up the smaller villains later.

[Gift Jeraff]

It just occurred to me that the base Nale was talking about might be tied to Haley's aunt Ivy. It would make sense for the Linear Guild to be connected to an anti-Tarquin resistance group, plus it would fit with the idea that Ivy and Geoff are corrupt.

[Kuroimaken]

I think it's even possible to be Chaotic within a Lawful Good regime, because the regime isn't going to correct all injustice, just those that can be reasonably corrected. You can still be a Robin Hood within such a society. While the government is going to attempt to ease the suffering of the poor, or at least provide them an environment where they can succeed, there will be poor people, and there will still be miserly rich people who refuse to share their wealth beyond what's necessary to pay in taxes.

A Chaotic Good character will see the rich man who hoards his legally obtained wealth and the starving mother, and he won't care about how the legal situation works, he'll steal from the rich and give to the poor (after deducting reasonable expenses, of course :smallwink: ). He'll also likely be a proponent of vigilante justice. If he knows there's a murderer or a selfish burgler on the loose, he won't wait for a search and seizure warrant, he'll barge in, beat the bad guy to a pulp, and deliver his own punishment (perhaps delivering him to the authorities perhaps not). All that is required is that he is certain he is right, and that he's not harming anyone other than the guilty. In short, he's Batman. (Superman is clearly the idealistic Lawful Good superhero)

As an adventurer, he'll be many things. He'll offer bribes instead of waiting for the formalities. He'll steal the magic artifact he needs to slay the monster, rather than going on a quest for the NPC that owns it in exchange-after all, there's a greater good. He may even bargain with some villains in order to topple the real big bad, assuming he still feels he can round up the smaller villains later.

Batman's alignment has long been the object of debate of several scholars more versed than I. :smalltongue: I know for a fact there is no accord on the subject.

I don't disagree with you. My point was aimed towards the argument that by being chaotic, you're disrupting order, and by doing so you're hurting people (thus, evil). That MAY be the case within a lawful good or lawful neutral society (emphasis on may), but not so in a lawful evil one.

Bargaining for the greater good feels more like a lawful act than a chaotic one to me. Or, to be more accurate, it feels neutral on the scale of chaotic v. law. It feels to me like it's something a shrewd good character might do, rather than something a chaotic necessarily would. There's nothing about evil that says they can't be trusted, by necessity; it's just that out of three evil alignments (lawful, neutral and chaotic), there are two chances out of three you'll get stabbed in the back for your trouble. Typically, the ability to fulfill promises is what separates antagonists from villains (or at least it is the way they typically express they aren't necessarily hateful, but only on opposite sides).

[Draxonicar]

I'm not sure you can make infrared paint, though.

Have various metal coils shaped like letters and numbers, and heat them at different temperatures.

BAM- Color difference in infrared that can be used for Captchas

[Doug Lampert]

Have various metal coils shaped like letters and numbers, and heat them at different temperatures.

BAM- Color difference in infrared that can be used for Captchas

Different materials can have substantially different IR emissivities, and the emissivity can vary by wavelength (in both cases, just as is true for visible light).

Most metals have high reflectivity/low emissivity, most paints and inks will reverse that. I have no idea about paper.

But there's no good reason that IR can't read if the detector is sensitive enough.

IR sensors are a big part of how I earn my living, and they can "see" material differences.

OTOH darkvision in D&D has NEVER acted like it was a high sensativity multiband IR sensor, so who cares? In 3.x there's not even any fluff connection to anything about heat or IR or to any other real world physics whatsoever.

DougL

[Tobimaro]

Canned meat would be a reference to a product called spam.

Better known today as something else in Internet linguo.

Also, Elan and his middle school humour. It's kind of cute. :smallsmile:

"Bloody Vikings..." :smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

being chaotic doesnt mean you automatically do everything you can to break the laws as mcuh as possible

aside from attempted Jailbreak Haley didnt break any laws while she was in Azure city despite it being (probably) one of the most rigid lawful good citys

being chaotic just means you dont really like to be tied down with what your going to do or cant do they would still ahve the same aversion to breaking the laws as anyone else (fear of the punishment)

[factotum]

OTOH darkvision in D&D has NEVER acted like it was a high sensativity multiband IR sensor, so who cares?

I don't know how 3.x works in this regard, but in 1st edition creatures explicitly had either Ultravision (see ultra-violet light) or Infravision (see IR light)--some rare creatures had both, but that was unusual. Has that changed now?

[Trixie]

I'm not sure you can make infrared paint, though.

There is zero difference between making 'visible light' paint and 'UV/IR paint', both are closely aligned parts of electromagnetic spectrum, we just can't 'see' a part of it...

The only difficulty would be making paints having different colours in UV/IR spectrum and the same one in visible one, but if flowers can do it, so can we...

[Kuroimaken]

There is zero difference between making 'visible light' paint and 'UV/IR paint', both are closely aligned parts of electromagnetic spectrum, we just can't 'see' a part of it...

The only difficulty would be making paints having different colours in UV/IR spectrum and the same one in visible one, but if flowers can do it, so can we...

I have ZILCH experience on the subject, FYI.

[butterbow]

being chaotic doesnt mean you automatically do everything you can to break the laws as mcuh as possible

aside from attempted Jailbreak Haley didnt break any laws while she was in Azure city despite it being (probably) one of the most rigid lawful good citys

being chaotic just means you dont really like to be tied down with what your going to do or cant do they would still ahve the same aversion to breaking the laws as anyone else (fear of the punishment)

I like to think being chaotic is like having Attention Deficit Disoder. It does not affect your personality (at least not directly), but makes it harder to plan ahead and much more easy to act spontanously. It's not a trait personality-wise but more of an modus operandi.

[pendell]

I like to think being chaotic is like having Attention Deficit Disoder. It does not affect your personality (at least not directly), but makes it harder to plan ahead and much more easy to act spontanously. It's not a trait personality-wise but more of an modus operandi.

I'm afraid I must disagree. To me, being 'chaotic' is a philosophy. Like Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly or Han Solo from Star Wars. It's not that they're stupid or have an inability to plan ahead. It's that they have a deep and abiding distrust of both the legal system and society's rules. They make up their own rules and moral code and follow them regardless of whether that code offends the society around them or not. It tends to push them to the edges of society where there is more toleration for unusual behavior.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[rewinn]

Why would a meat merchant be sealed in a can to start with?

:smalltongue:

Armor !!!


http://kristenlamb.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/spam-291x300.jpg

[Warmage]

I don't know how 3.x works in this regard, but in 1st edition creatures explicitly had either Ultravision (see ultra-violet light) or Infravision (see IR light)--some rare creatures had both, but that was unusual. Has that changed now?

Ultravision was supposed to be the UV spectrum and Inravision was supposed to be the IR spectrum. Quite a few people misunderstood IR and thus abused it by looking through walls (like on TV!)

Darkvision just allows you see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. It is black and white only and doesn't allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be.

Because it is black and white, you can easily choose a text color that will not appear in darkvision. Anyone who is colorblind can attest to that. Simply embedding red letters in green patterns will make it impossible to see.

EDIT: I'm just going to add that both Ultravision and Infravision made players think they could see invisible creatures or disbelieve illusions due to the nature (or perceived nature) of UV and IR light. Anyone who has actually viewed in IR knows that it can't see through walls, and can't even see through glass.

[bronnt]

I'm afraid I must disagree. To me, being 'chaotic' is a philosophy. Like Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly or Han Solo from Star Wars. It's not that they're stupid or have an inability to plan ahead.

Of course, Han Solo occasionally demonstrates an inability to plan ahead at times, too. :smallbiggrin: Pretty much all of his successful ideas in the films are improvised on the spot. "Hey, let's fly into the asteroid field!" "Hey, I'm going to charge at these stormtroopers!" "I changed my mind, I'll show at the Death Star at literally the last second!" In fact, the only time he's really shown to have developed a plan in advance, he's ambushed and captured in a bunker on Endor and is only saved by an army of teddybears. But that's neither here nor there.

I agree, generally chaotic good doesn't mean ADD. Though it might seem that way if they abandon their current scheme because they find an easier way to achieved their goals by ignoring the laws.

[rbetieh]

Ok, I've stayed out of alignment debates for a while, I guess I can step into it again for a bit. :smallbiggrin:

Ok, my suggestion is you look at the alignment system from a more IRL perspective and not the moral-relativistic writings of cannon D&D. Start with a statment of belief, decide if said statement is good/neutral/evil , and finally decide how much you wish to follow it..... As an example:

Roys Philosophy is Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) Living under a walking villain cliche like you will destroy its soul (believes in a fundamental goodness in the world he lives in, wants to preserve it)

V's Philosopy is Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) How can i complete and total arcane power (much like a physicist that seeks knowledge for its own sake, since in a world of magic, magic is science, V makes no value judgement on what she will use it for)

Tarquins Philosophy is evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html) You cannot make an omellete without crushing dozens of eggs beneath your steel boot and publicly disembowling the chickens as a warning to others (the old Napoleonic philosophy, give the masses enlightenment whether they want it or not, it comes from a general beneath that most people are no better than animals and they must be controlled)

Ok, we have our good/evil axis, Law/Chaos is next. This one is simpler than most people think, the more in line your actions are with your stated belief, the more Lawful you are. In other words, what you do is the proof of what you believe. When a lawful person breaks their code, they regret it. When a chaotic person breaks their code, they justify it.

And this gets rid of those nagging inconsistencies that come about when you try to fit real historical figures into the alignment system.

Anyways, apply this to Malack and you should find a LN alignment, at least that is what I am leaning towards based on his "why I support Nergal" talk. Not that it matters, since only The Giant can tell us whether he meant the philosophy to be good/neutral/evil for sure.

[Doug Lampert]

I have ZILCH experience on the subject, FYI.

Alright, short physics lecture time. IR and UV are the closest parts of the spectrum to visible without being visible. Light in these wavelengths mostly acts like visible light.

There are differences, mostly in that water or the atmosphere tends to absorb UV, and that IR suffers from both this and the fact that the sensor needs to be cooled below body temperature or its self emission floods the focal plane. Hence we see by visible, because it works.

But both IR and UV are actually wider spectrums than visible, so if you had appropriate "color" IR vision with enough different sensor responses it can actually give more information than visible light does.

Paint is typically a pigment and a binder, the binder (epoxy, resin, acrylics, polyurethanes, polyesters, or oil) is usually translucent to visible light so what you see is the pigment. IR paint gets interesting in that the usual binders are actually opeque in the IR, thus you "see" the binder not the pigment.

But different binders have different appearances in the IR. Thus it would actually be fairly trivial to get a paint that looked like a single color or brightness to visible light and looked like multiple colors in the IR or to reverse this and get multiple visible colors or brightnesses and only one IR color.

None of which is relevent since 3.x darkvision and lowlight vision still don't work by IR.

DougL

[Shoelessgdowar]

Of course, Han Solo occasionally demonstrates an inability to plan ahead at times, too. :smallbiggrin: Pretty much all of his successful ideas in the films are improvised on the spot. "Hey, let's fly into the asteroid field!" "Hey, I'm going to charge at these stormtroopers!" "I changed my mind, I'll show at the Death Star at literally the last second!" In fact, the only time he's really shown to have developed a plan in advance, he's ambushed and captured in a bunker on Endor and is only saved by an army of teddybears. But that's neither here nor there.

I agree, generally chaotic good doesn't mean ADD. Though it might seem that way if they abandon their current scheme because they find an easier way to achieved their goals by ignoring the laws.

Actually, if you want proof of planning ahead. Han is 1) The guy that while at the Imperial Academy told his superiors the glaring weakness in the AT-AT Walkers (Yes, Han before he met Chewy was briefly Ensign and later 2nd Lt Solo of the Empire); 2) Communicated that weakness at the Battle of Hoth to bring down the AT-ATs; 3) And became General Solo of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic because of it. Han is a great example of an alignment shift over a lifetime: CN to CG to NG to LG to LN to NN to to CN to CG to NG to LG... ain't that awesome?

[Gusion]

Han is a great example of an alignment shift over a lifetime: CN to CG to NG to LG to LN to NN to to CN to CG to NG to LG... ain't that awesome?

Or he was really just NG the entire time and just moved around within that alignment.

[Icedaemon]

This would normally be true under a lawful neutral or lawful good regime (where the laws are made both to uphold the order AND to ensure that people have a fair livelihood), but not so in a lawful evil regime (where the laws are made to ensure people do not rebel). It's why Robin Hood is the archetypical Chaotic Good character: he seeks to overthrow a regime that oppresses those of lower birth while trying to make their lives better. Chaotic Good characters typically have been wronged by the system in some way, and that's why they despise laws so fiercely. Note that a CG character may openly disregard or berate the law and authority established, but does not necessarily need to bring it down (as doing that would actually make people's lives worse).

That's situational unlawfulness, not real unlawfulness. Opposing a system of government which is seen as unfair or evil while being very supportive of several others, let aline one which is practically the same (supporting Richard instead of John in the case of the example) is not enough to label one as chaotic. If one believes that a better system should be in place, that's not chaotic (unless that system is markedly more anarchic), at least not in my eyes. Basically, if a character stops being chaotic in a lawful good society, that character is not chaotic good.


EDIT: It's also noteworthy that a chaotic character may have a code of honor, and may be opposed to governments alone OR dogma alone. Just as good is not so hard to uphold that a minor act of evil here and there will make a character cold and twisted, Chaos and Law are not strict that one cannot abide the other in SOME fashion.

Being opposed to only one aspect of lawfulness while supporting several others defaults to neutral. As it tends to be taken for granted that lawful and chaotic are morally neutral traits in and of themselves, being partially chaotic and partially lawful, unless the chaotic part is something which deeply defines the character while the lawful part much more minor in comparison, would default one to neutral on that axis.


The problem there is that it implies a the *most good* people will care not one whit for their own preservation so long as what they're doing helps someone else, and I think that's slipping over the line into Lawful Stupid territory. Maybe I'm too much of a cynic, but I don't believe that anyone can ever purely hold someone else's interests ahead of their own, no matter what!

There is a difference between not caring a bit about one's own life and caring about others' well-being about as much or perhaps more than about one's own.

The most good people might well be Stupid Good as you suggested though. Utmost evil is hardly all that smart either though and generally just as self-destructive in different ways. Chaos or law taken to extremes are hardly perfect. This does after all form pretty much the basis of the ideology of the druids and others striving for perfect balance. That for being good this self-destructive stupidity requires the farthest extremes makes sense, as taking being good too far will take quite some doing and will be isolated to very rare cases.

rbetieh

I do like the elegant simplicity of your idea of law-chaos.

[Kish]

rbetieh

I do like the elegant simplicity of your idea of law-chaos.
I don't, I'm afraid. Making chaotic mean "inconsistent" is no better than making lawful mean "follows the law of the area s/he is in," and if chaotic means you don't follow your own philosophy, there are very few believable chaotic characters.

[factotum]

The most good people might well be Stupid Good as you suggested though. Utmost evil is hardly all that smart either though and generally just as self-destructive in different ways. Chaos or law taken to extremes are hardly perfect.

Ah, the Zoroastrian attitude to things--it's just as terrible to be exposed to the pure good of an angel as it is to be exposed to the pure evil of a demon? I'm not sure the D&D alignment system is quite that nuanced, but it's an interesting approach to be sure.

[rbetieh]

I don't, I'm afraid. Making chaotic mean "inconsistent" is no better than making lawful mean "follows the law of the area s/he is in," and if chaotic means you don't follow your own philosophy, there are very few believable chaotic characters.

Precisely, Hypocrasy is a Chaotic trait. The problem is when a Lawful person does it, the act stands out much much more. Thats IRL for you.

[Adicted To]

I'm not sure you can make infrared paint, though.

Yes you can. It's just not visible with the human eye.

[Warren Dew]

Ok, we have our good/evil axis, Law/Chaos is next. This one is simpler than most people think, the more in line your actions are with your stated belief, the more Lawful you are. In other words, what you do is the proof of what you believe. When a lawful person breaks their code, they regret it. When a chaotic person breaks their code, they justify it.
What about people who don't have a code in the first place?

[rbetieh]

What about people who don't have a code in the first place?

Refer them to This Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mEzgc_ne60) specifically, "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice" :smallwink:

Oh and existencialism is a Neutral philosophy, which is what a no-coder is, a person choosing to simply exist.

[Abrexa]

I'm sorry, but I must ask - was that last bit about Captcha in the comic connected to Captcha thread I made recently in Forum Issues forum? :smallsmile:

So... Is that a yes or no, then...? :smalleek:

[hamishspence]

Actually, if you want proof of planning ahead. Han is 1) The guy that while at the Imperial Academy told his superiors the glaring weakness in the AT-AT Walkers (Yes, Han before he met Chewy was briefly Ensign and later 2nd Lt Solo of the Empire); 2) Communicated that weakness at the Battle of Hoth to bring down the AT-ATs; 3) And became General Solo of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic because of it.
Where'd you get that idea from? I can't remember any novel mentioning that as part of Han's history.

There's a short story in Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina where the guy who says "Look sir, droids" was sent to the Stormtrooper Corps precisely to get him out of the way, after he discovered said weakness- but I can't remember Han being connected to it. There's very little to cover Han's years at the Academy.


Han is a great example of an alignment shift over a lifetime: CN to CG to NG to LG to LN to NN to to CN to CG to NG to LG... ain't that awesome?

Or Han was TN and has been that all the way along- but with Good leanings later in his career? Complete Scoundrel does list him as an example of a Neutral character.

[enderlord99]

Yes you can. It's just not visible with the human eye.

I would think that, more accurately, it would seem black (assuming it was purely infrared).

[Da'Shain]

Han is a great example of an alignment shift over a lifetime: CN to CG to NG to LG to LN to NN to to CN to CG to NG to LG... ain't that awesome?Er ... when would you say that Han is LG? I'd peg him as maybe NG but far more likely CG, pretty consistently.

[Tobimaro]

Looks like Tarquin is really serious about his security. :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

I would think that, more accurately, it would seem black (assuming it was purely infrared).

Presumably you COULD find a binder that's translucent in the IR, but as I said earlier, baring doing that a paint will mostly look like the binder in the IR and will mostly look like the pigment in the visible.

Different binders have different IR appearances, and a good binder is translucent or transparent in the visible, it may be glossy, but you want people to be seeing the pigment. So an IR paint could be more or less invisible in the visible, a coat of transparent varnish or your floor wax is probably a fine IR paint and isn't particularly visible in the visible.

[Hbgplayer]

Where'd you get that idea from? I can't remember any novel mentioning that as part of Han's history.

There's a short story in Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina where the guy who says "Look sir, droids" was sent to the Stormtrooper Corps precisely to get him out of the way, after he discovered said weakness- but I can't remember Han being connected to it. There's very little to cover Han's years at the Academy.


I believe that he is getting the idea from the Han Solo Trilogy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Han_Solo_Trilogy). The first book, The Paradise Snare (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Paradise_Snare) details him, towards the end of the book, entering the Imperial Academy.

[Da'Shain]

I believe that he is getting the idea from the Han Solo Trilogy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Han_Solo_Trilogy). The first book, The Paradise Snare (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Paradise_Snare) details him, towards the end of the book, entering the Imperial Academy.IIRC, though, the second book begins with him having been kicked out of said Academy, and that particular trilogy does not really go into much detail about Han's time there aside from explaining the circumstances under which he saved Chewie.

[Hbgplayer]

What is the IIRC?

[hamishspence]

The Han Solo Wookieepedia entry says very little about his time at the academy.

Here's the article for the Rebel credited with devising the tow-cable trip techinique:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Beryl_Chiffonage

[MesiDoomstalker]

What is the IIRC?

If I Remember Correctly

[MoonCat]

If I Remember Correctly

I thought it was Recall, IIRC.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I thought it was Recall, IIRC.

Recall and Remember are synonyms and the difference in their exact definitions matter very little when used this way.

[Gift Jeraff]

IIRC, it's Recollect.



(Kidding.)

[MoonCat]

Recall and Remember are synonyms and the difference in their exact definitions matter very little when used this way.

I know, but it flows better with Recall.

[windweaver]

Can't wait to see Malack throw some more cleric mojo about. I think the tables have turned big time.

[KoboldRevenge]

Man Malack went right from being friendly to like V's Logical imperialism in a second!

[leakingpen]

No, that's not confirmed. The version I've always hear, condensed form of "spiced ham," makes much more sense (did a quick google search for reference - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spam site apears reputable). Normally, I wouldn't much care if neither version can be confirmed, but why on earth would a company name a product "Shoulder Pork And Meat?" That implies that the shoulder is not meat, and pork already IS a type of meat, so there's both a redundancy and an implication of nastiness in there (Span IS made of pork shoulder and other hams). And in the last several years, my estimation of the History Chanel's educational worth has been plummeting.

/endthreadjack

Actually, I saw the same documentary they did, and a person from hormel who was on the marketing department at the time they started selling it stated that one of their wives gave it that name. So it seems a credible source. However, I recall it as Spiced Pork And haM.

[leakingpen]

There is zero difference between making 'visible light' paint and 'UV/IR paint', both are closely aligned parts of electromagnetic spectrum, we just can't 'see' a part of it...

The only difficulty would be making paints having different colours in UV/IR spectrum and the same one in visible one, but if flowers can do it, so can we...

There are a bunch of just such paints out there. I have a friend that loves making a blank white sign with white paint that absorbs all IR, so that it shows black on IR sensitive cameras. (Note, most security cameras are IR sensitive, so it shows on cameras at businesses. )

[dgnslyr]

Han is a great example of an alignment shift over a lifetime: CN to CG to NG to LG to LN to NN to to CN to CG to NG to LG... ain't that awesome?

Or maybe it's just that way too many authors with way too many ideas want to write stories about him. EXPANDED UNIVERSE!

When did he become lawful? He seemed pretty CN before meeting up with The Intrepid Heroes(tm), shifted over towards CG once he became an Intrepid Hero(tm), and then I guess he settled down and had kids, but EXPANDED UNIVERSE! I'm kinda curious, because I never really read too deeply into the expanded universe.

[warrl]

being chaotic doesnt mean you automatically do everything you can to break the laws as mcuh as possible

If being chaotic meant you had to break the law as much as possible, wouldn't THAT be - in effect - a law? And wouldn't you therefore have to break it rather often?

[Bulldog Psion]

Lawful: steady, stable, goal-oriented, tends to stick to schedule and/or established procedures, thinks inside the box. Philosophically, thinks that an orderly approach produces the best results, and tends to accept the ideas of tradition, lawful authority, etc. insofar as they do not conflict with other alignment characteristics.

Chaotic: unpredictable, takes each moment as it comes, prefers expediency and spontaneous impulse at the moment to adherence to a set plan, thinks outside the box. Philosophically, tends to distrust authority and tradition, has rather fluid beliefs, may oppose lawfulness if perceived to be stifling or oppressive.

Note: lawful does not mean always obeys the law, chaotic does not mean always opposes the law. It is tendency, not a monomania.

Heck, Haley gives us two explicit descriptions of the law/chaos divide.

In the first instance, Durkon tries to get her to stay with the party by invoking Elan's presence. She says, "I can talk him into coming with me. He's chaotic." Or words to that effect, indicating a lawful character tends to stick to an agreement or plan faithfully, while a chaotic one may change their mind if given a fairly good inducement.

In the second instance, she goes "Gah! How lawful you people are!" when Roy and Hinjo are trying to figure out which of the three fake Xykons is real. This shows that lawful = tends to think inside the box, working from what appear to be established facts. Chaotic = thinks outside the box, looks for unexpected solutions.

Seems pretty clear cut to me. I'd even characterize myself as lawful and my wife as chaotic, even though we both fall at the good end of the spectrum (I hope). :smallwink:

[Sith_Happens]

Miko's Law:

As a thread on Giant In the Playground becomes arbitrarily long, the probability of its turning into a D&D 3.5 alignment debate approaches one.

[bronnt]

Miko's Law:

As a thread on Giant In the Playground becomes arbitrarily long, the probability of its turning into a D&D 3.5 alignment debate approaches one.

:vaarsuvius: I find it to be entirely in keeping with what I know of these forums.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Where'd you get that idea from? I can't remember any novel mentioning that as part of Han's history.

There's a short story in Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina where the guy who says "Look sir, droids" was sent to the Stormtrooper Corps precisely to get him out of the way, after he discovered said weakness- but I can't remember Han being connected to it. There's very little to cover Han's years at the Academy.

Or Han was TN and has been that all the way along- but with Good leanings later in his career? Complete Scoundrel does list him as an example of a Neutral character.

As someone Ninja'd, the 2nd Han Solo Trilogy did cover Han discovering the matter ever in passing. Han's expulsion has been far more greatly covered in multiple places.

As for Davin Felth (The Stormtrooper/Sandtrooper attributed with said discovery), well his identity is ubiquitous as his movie, radio, book, magazine, card, and comic appearance have him being various ranks, ST #s, finding different droid parts in a different place, so his veracity can be called into question. It is far more likely he was a Cadet along side Han, overheard Han's comment, got in trouble for plagiarism and for violating the classified nature, and therefore was punished with being made an ST and sent to Tattooine. I would have accepted his statement based on the cards and magazine articles frequently being erroneous, except the books, radio, comics, and movies contradict one another and they are the Canon sources, so his veracity and even identity is still in question.


Er ... when would you say that Han is LG? I'd peg him as maybe NG but far more likely CG, pretty consistently.

Han was 1) A general, 2) Spouse of the Chief of State of the New Republic, 3) Brother-in-Law of the Head of the Jedi, 4) Best Friend and Life Debt Holder to the most honored and revered Wookiee ever on Kashyyyk, 5) Lady Vader's Mate to the Noghri... and in all these cases not only abided by, but supported and followed the laws of the Governments and Regimes (This isn't even including his usage of Bakuran Law to claim Leia's hand, his being good friends with the Head of Hologram Fun World, or his cousin who was in charge of the Corellian Government). Han late in life went quite Lawful.


The Han Solo Wookieepedia entry says very little about his time at the academy.

Here's the article for the Rebel credited with devising the tow-cable trip techinique:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Beryl_Chiffonage

Beryl Chiffonage is an unnamed character shown in the movies, who was given a name and some story only on collectible cards and in magazine article, he is never identified in any book, comic, film, or other verified material (Cards and Magazine Articles are frequently erroneous, and require much cross verification).

[hamishspence]

I've read The Paradise Snare and The Hutt Gambit. Neither mention Han "discovering the weakness of the AT-ATs."

Remember Han left the academy nearly 10 years before A New Hope- whereas Felth was a relatively new cadet when, during the simulations, he had his AT-AT kneel in case it would be tripped by speeders. Which took place very shortly before A New Hope.

If Wookieepedia is taken as accurate, Han was not responsible for the Rebels discovering how to defeat AT-ATs.

Could you please cite the source that claims Han was responsible?

[Adicted To]

OMG a plot twist. Without knowing we were al plane shifted to a Star Wars forum. :smallfurious:

[Warmage]

OMG a plot twist. Without knowing we were al plane shifted to a Star Wars forum. :smallfurious:

What? This isn't the Order of the Jedi forums?

[Sith_Happens]

OMG a plot twist. Without knowing we were al plane shifted to a Star Wars forum. :smallfurious:

:vaarsuvius: I see no problem with this.

[hamishspence]

OMG a plot twist. Without knowing we were al plane shifted to a Star Wars forum. :smallfurious:

True- it was in the alignment debate, wehn someone argued that Han was perfect example of someone who went from CN to LG, and gave these as examples of Lawfulness:



Han was 1) A general, 2) Spouse of the Chief of State of the New Republic, 3) Brother-in-Law of the Head of the Jedi, 4) Best Friend and Life Debt Holder to the most honored and revered Wookiee ever on Kashyyyk, 5) Lady Vader's Mate to the Noghri... and in all these cases not only abided by, but supported and followed the laws of the Governments and Regimes (This isn't even including his usage of Bakuran Law to claim Leia's hand, his being good friends with the Head of Hologram Fun World, or his cousin who was in charge of the Corellian Government). Han late in life went quite Lawful.

I was disputing the other argument, that Han showed evidence of planning ahead on a timescale of years "Han was promoted to General for discovering the weakness of AT-ATs and communicating it to the Rebels, leading to the successes at the Battle of Hoth."

Because there is no evidence for it, that I can find, and quite a bit of evidence against it.

As to his "supporting and following the laws of governments" I can find quite a few post-Endor sources that state otherwise- he retained the Falcon's many still-illegal modifications, and carefully avoided inspections that would reveal this (Ambush At Corellia), he uses false IDs in peacetime (Vision of the Future) and so on.

The "Han is Lawful" argument doesn't really hold water for me.

[Gusion]

Han was 1) A general, 2) Spouse of the Chief of State of the New Republic, 3) Brother-in-Law of the Head of the Jedi, 4) Best Friend and Life Debt Holder to the most honored and revered Wookiee ever on Kashyyyk, 5) Lady Vader's Mate to the Noghri... and in all these cases not only abided by, but supported and followed the laws of the Governments and Regimes (This isn't even including his usage of Bakuran Law to claim Leia's hand, his being good friends with the Head of Hologram Fun World, or his cousin who was in charge of the Corellian Government). Han late in life went quite Lawful.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand alignment. Your best argument is that he was a general. The problem with this argument is that such a position doesn't automatically make someone a lawful alignment. For instance, General George Patton. He was absolutely brilliant and one of the best generals in WW2 - but he in no way had a lawful anything personality.

Your arguments 2-5 are who he was friends or related to... even if we accept that all of those people are LG, that doesn't require he be LG. If a priest doesn't have to be the same alignment as his God, I'm pretty sure there are no requirements to be the same alignment as your friends/mate/relatives.

A NG individual still obeys laws. He just doesn't feel as beholden to do so, and would rather see "good" be done than worry if the method is legal or not. If that can happen within the contraints of the law, fine. But if it can't the NG person doesn't see a problem bending the rules.

[Knaight]

I think you fundamentally misunderstand alignment. Your best argument is that he was a general. The problem with this argument is that such a position doesn't automatically make someone a lawful alignment. For instance, General George Patton. He was absolutely brilliant and one of the best generals in WW2 - but he in no way had a lawful anything personality.
Patton placed any number of carefully made mandates on soldiers, many of which were about the creation of order. When it comes to things like insisting upon, for lack of a better term, presentation, Patton was lawful in the extreme.

[rewinn]

Patton placed any number of carefully made mandates on soldiers, many of which were about the creation of order. When it comes to things like insisting upon, for lack of a better term, presentation, Patton was lawful in the extreme.

:xykon:Requiring your subordinates to do your will is not necessarily lawful or otherwise. It's just POWER!

[Gusion]

Patton placed any number of carefully made mandates on soldiers, many of which were about the creation of order. When it comes to things like insisting upon, for lack of a better term, presentation, Patton was lawful in the extreme.

He certainly demanded personal loyalty and order in his ranks. Sure.

But this is the same general who also ordered his troops to disguise themselves as First Army (instead of his Third Army Ordnance) in order to "obtain" fuel and supplies during the Crossing of the Rhine (which he was told to hold defensively.)

Or the same general that would bend (some say disobey) orders given to him on a continual basis because he thought they were against the greater good of ending the war (just so Monty could get some glory, from Patton's perspective.)

All of which points to a Neutral - not Lawful - General. Laws/rules/order are to be obeyed when they work toward the end but are not an end unto themselves... and if they get in the way, well, there are more important things than following them.

[Knaight]

He certainly demanded personal loyalty and order in his ranks. Sure.
More than that. When it comes to trivial details like looking as clean as possible when in the field (as opposed to when at bases, where that is basically assumed), Patton was all over it. There is or was a term used in the military, called chickencrap (well, not quite), which is basically anything that makes the lives of soldiers unnecessarily difficult, and Patton participated in it.

[Ron Miel]

I always thought that chickens**t meant cowardice. Was I wrong?

Or is it a different word you meant?