Archivist questions(And some some other related ones)

[Little Brother]

1) Can an archivist fit in with a T3 party
2) How well can they be controlled
3a) Do they play as they seem, sorta like a wizard.
3b) Will it fill the same role as the archetypal wizard? Control/support with some blasting capability?
4) How do they compete with a Mystic Ranger at levels 3-5 and higher? Will they step on each other's toes?
5) How strong are they, really?

I got another player who wants to play one, and I'm considering allowing it. I wanted you guys' thoughts.

[Psyren]

1) Yes; all you need is a player who doesn't try to hog the spotlight.
2) Depends on the player again.
3a) Yes
3b) T1 classes can take nearly any role you want them to. Control/support with blasting is certainly fine for them.
4) The archivist has far more options than the Ranger (e.g. dedicated summoning and battlefied control.) Any overlap depends again on the players.
5) T1, which only tells you its potential power. Its power in practical use will depend on your player's skill.

The main question you need to ask is "is this player mature enough to play a T1 class in a T3 party?" If yes, allow it, if not, don't.

[Elfinor]

1. Only with a gentleman's agreement, a low magic world (making it difficult for him to add high level scrolls to his prayerbook) and/or with house rule restrictions of some sort on prayerbook additions (esp. domain spells, but consider further restrictions for T3 level play). I would recommend all three. A low-optimisation or new player would also be a bonus (a possible replacement for the gentleman's agreement option) - not everyone's a rabid optimiser:smallbiggrin:

2. Like a Wizard, you may attempt prayerbook stealing shenanigans. How well the Archivist's player takes it, on the other hand...

The best way is to restrict the scrolls he has access to - hence restricting additions to his prayerbook.

3a. Yes, sort of, in the prayerbook/spellbook sense. Also nearly as squishy at low levels. But as you get closer to higher levels it's the spells that truly define the character so in that sense your player will be towards the clerical (and druidic) and again... depending on the prayerbook (sorry for sounding like a broken record here). Dark Knowledge is their unique thing and it can be pretty handy (for them), depending on what they're up against but definitely not game breaking

3b. Not at lower levels, they'll have access to fewer spells than a cleric and they'll be mostly, if not all, from the Cleric's list (that's what they gain per level) - not very blasty. There are a couple of low level Druidic (or domain, if you haven't house ruled them out) spell scrolls you may want to consider letting fall into the player's hands in such a case. High levels are fine.

4. Not too much, unless the Archivist has had the chance to pen a lot of Druid/Ranger spells into his prayerbook or makes a special effort to emulate a Mystic Ranger. Probably will be minor support spell overlap though.

5. Very. Depending on how lax the DM is (so not you) and how pushy the player is, they can easily outclass a Cleric because of their superior spell selection (Cleric+Druid+Domains+Divine Variant classes). I've probably stressed enough that restricting prayerbook additions is the key. Even then you're probably looking at a strong Tier 3/weak Tier 2 at least (with very heavy restrictions). That said, the steps in my answer to question 1 can help reduce potential abuse.

EDIT: Psyren put it very well

The main question you need to ask is "is this player mature enough to play a T1 class in a T3 party?" If yes, allow it, if not, don't.This more or less trumps my entire post. Way to make me feel redundant Psyren:smalltongue: I spent a lot of time on that post.

Nonetheless, there are probably still some points you could take out of my post if your player likes to push the envelope a bit.

[MrRigger]

1. Yes. As long as the player is willing to be a team player, there shouldn't be any issues with an Archivist fitting in with a primarily Tier 3 party.

2. It depends on you and the player. If you allow the player to have access to any divine scroll, he will have the near limitless power of the combination between a Cleric/Druid/Paladin. However, you shouldn't limit them for no reason. Archivists are fluffed as seekers of knowledge. Going around and interrogating every divine caster on their spellcasting is kind of what Archivists do. What I'm trying to say is that if your Archivist wants a spell from an obscure domain (Hunger domain has some nifty spells, but only one or two gods grant it as a domain), or a rare PrC (Blighter gets Anti-Life Shell a spell level early, I believe), don't just let them have it, make them track down someone with the spell who would be willing to help them. If you do it right, this won't be a chore or bother, it will be a near endless source of plot hooks.

3. Archivists are Tier 1, if it can be done, they can do it, to some degree or another. How they play is really up to the player. Archivists can be a better buffer than a Cleric, or they can rain down all the destruction from the Cleric/Druid/every other divine caster's spell list, or they can stand up in melee just as well as your average CoDzilla. Persisting your battle buffs isn't all that difficult if you want to go that route. Or you can build a nasty summoner, or battlefield controller. It's really up to what kind of spells the Player selects and what sort of style they want to play. However, with their Dark Knowledge class feature, I feel they're most easily made into great buffers/debuffers with some blasting/BFC in the leftover slots.

4. I've never played with a Mystic Ranger, so I'm not really sure, but like I mentioned, Archivists can do a lot of stuff, so while overlap is certainly possible, it's hardly guaranteed to happen, especially if you take steps to prevent it (namely, just mention that the Ranger has this covered, pick your spells to do something else).

5. As mentioned, they're Tier 1, with all that implies. Everything a Cleric/Druid does to break the game, the Archivist can probably do as well, they can pull of most Wizard tricks as well, and with their doubtlessly high Knowledge skills, it's difficult keeping secrets from them. However as Psyren mentions, Tier 1 is only the potential of the class. Depending on the player, not all that potential will be reached, or they might not want to do a certain thing for flavor reasons. For instance, I had an Abjurer who banned Enchantment and Necromancy and avoided nearly all sorts of summoning because he, as a character, hated violating free will and avoided all sorts of minion-o-mancy, despite that using minion tricks is a pretty powerful tactic. There were in-character reasons for not doing it, when in fact I knew that I was already building a Wizard/Master Specialist/IotSV and didn't want to break the game any more than I already was.

As mentioned, a lot of your concerns have less to do with the class itself and more to do with the player. See what he wants to do with the class, and he's your friend, you know what he's likely to do in game more than any of us.

MrRigger

[JaronK]

1) Can an archivist fit in with a T3 party

Sure. Clearly T1 though, so just make sure the player doesn't go overboard. Focusing on buffs is a great way to fit in without issues.


2) How well can they be controlled

RAW, he can research any new spell in one day. If you want to use purely RAW (as opposed to talking with the player) methods of keeping him from going crazy, don't give too much downtime. Of course, he should have SOME so he can get the spells necessary to doing whatever it is you want him able to do.


3a) Do they play as they seem, sorta like a wizard.

Basically yes, with some dazing effects thrown in.


3b) Will it fill the same role as the archetypal wizard? Control/support with some blasting capability?

He can. Or he can fill pretty much any other role except trap detection. Just a matter of what spells he takes.


4) How do they compete with a Mystic Ranger at levels 3-5 and higher? Will they step on each other's toes?

That's the casty one? Should be on par, neither is T3 in those levels.


5) How strong are they, really?

As strong as the player wants, much like a Wizard. But they don't HAVE to be abused by any stretch of the imagination.

JaronK

[Elfinor]

Out of curiosity, what did you decide? I vaguely remember one of your previous posts in another thread saying that you normally ban all T1 & T2 classes.

[Gabe the Bard]

It really depends on the player and what they do with the class. An archivist is like a swiss army knife; they can fill a lot of holes, even more than wizards. A human rogue1/archivist+ with Able Learner can be a trapfinder, skill-monkey, knowledge expert, buffer, healer, and almost a full caster, all in one.

But I'm partial to archivist as buffer. I've always wanted to try a gestalt bard/archivist uber buffer, although it might break the game a bit when your 8th level party has a +10 attack bonus from listening to you singing and blabbing.

[hex0]

You could always take Prestige Ranger for the kicks.

I like the flavor of Archivist and it is worth taking to at least 11th level.

[Little Brother]

Out of curiosity, what did you decide? I vaguely remember one of your previous posts in another thread saying that you normally ban all T1 & T2 classes.Normally, that's our policy, but given the new group, I thought I'd trust one of my older players to fill up the role nicely, the role being a buffer/healer that can Batman or blast if I throw something too good for the newblets in the group. He's a responsible player, and should be fine.

On a side note, the other good player is pro'lly playing a bard, are there any ways to get Trapfinding on a bard? He's running a melee-focused Jack Bard.

The rest of the group is a Warblade, a probable crusader, though he's eyeing the Swordsage 'cuz he likes debuffs, his last character was a Hexblade(different campaign), and a player who still hasn't decided. I'm probably just going to choose one of the ToB classes for him if he doesn't decide soon.

Would 2 crusaders or warblades step on each other's toes? Would there be a better option with an Archivist, a Crusader, a Warblade, and a Bard in the party? It's a new player, so nothing like ToM or Incarnum.

EDIT: Also, to control said archivist, I've decided to his spells severely. If I give him 9 or 12 spells besides the heal spells(which he has all of), what should I give him(approximately even per level, fudging for whatever)?

[hex0]

Trapfinding on a bard? It is called playing a Factotum or a Beguiler instead, right? :smallwink:

The idea of different TOB classes in the same group shouldn't be an issue.

If you are worried about Archivist being too powerful, suggest Favored Soul instead. (down a tier)

[Little Brother]

Trapfinding on a bard? It is called playing a Factotum or a Beguiler instead, right? :smallwink:Guy wants a bard, and bards would be better, given the party. Honestly, if my two old players even half-tried, they'd blow the newbs away, so we've agreed to general supporty-ness until the newbs get good. My number one priority is fun for all, and the bard guy actually suggested bard, so I'm gonna leave it at that.

The idea of different TOB classes in the same group shouldn't be an issue. But two of the same class with one other?

If you are worried about Archivist being too powerful, suggest Favored Soul instead. (down a tier)Won't work in the game, plus archivists are cooler. I just want a decent spell-list for him and the game should be smooth. Plus, favored souls are fightier, and some of the people in this group were convinced Monk was busted, so I'm gonna roll with what they thought, at least for a while.

[hex0]

Guy wants a bard, and bards would be better, given the party. Honestly, if my two old players even half-tried, they'd blow the newbs away, so we've agreed to general supporty-ness until the newbs get good. My number one priority is fun for all, and the bard guy actually suggested bard, so I'm gonna leave it at that.


Not even Beguiler->Prestige Bard :smallfrown:

I don't like the idea of two Crusaders together, especially if they are are of different alignment...Crusader, Warblade, and Swordsage in the same group is cute though.

[Little Brother]

Not even Beguiler->Prestige Bard :smallfrown: Worse melee-er, which was one of his reasons. Also, worse IC.

I don't like the idea of two Crusaders together, especially if they are are of different alignment...Crusader, Warblade, and Swordsage in the same group is cute though.Seem synergistic

So, how would I determine a good CR for encounters with this group? If worse comes to worse, the Archivist and Bard can probably carry the group through almost anything. Starting at 3, BTW.

[hex0]

You can give just slightly less EXP to the higher tiers to balance. Never heard of this before though until I thought of it. And normal CR.

[MrRigger]

You probably don't need to mess with the CR at all, unless after you play for a while and notice that the party is stomping all over everything. CR tends to wonky anyway (Elemental Weirds are one of the worst I can think of), so I find that once a party finds a groove, you need to tailor fights for their abilities anyway.

As for spells, well, there's a list of lowest level divine spells. Found right here. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872558/Lowest_level_versions_of_spells)

MrRigger

[Chronos]

Archivist can be tricky for the DM, since there's a fine line to walk between letting them get all spells and letting them get none. If you don't make a point to give them scrolls, then they end up just being weakened clerics (which is still probably tier 2, but it feels like a slap in the face). If you do give them scrolls, though, it can very easily get out of hand.

Wizards would have this issue, too, except that they're more common. The party is likely to fight a few wizards and take their spellbooks as loot, or meet friendly wizards who are willing to swap spells. This doesn't happen as much with archivists.

Probably the best course would be to give the player scrolls of any spells you know he's going to need, but also let him sidequest to find adepts or members of obscure classes or whatever to try to customize his spell list (though of course, you'd still have final say on whether he's really able to find anyone with X spell or at Y level).

As for the bard, the simplest method to get trapfinding is to just take a 1-level dip in rogue or some other trapfinding class. You'll lose a level of spellcasting and of bardsong, bu that doesn't make all that much difference, and there's a lot of overlap in the bard and rogue skill lists.

[Elfinor]

As for spells, well, there's a list of lowest level divine spells. Found right here. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872558/Lowest_level_versions_of_spells)

MrRiggerI'm a little ashamed I didn't think of that myself. I suppose it depends a lot upon the prevalence of other divine casters (who happen to scribe/have scrolls) in your world; for that matter, do clerics and druids exist at all in your campaign world? I assumed that they did...

Should your Mystic Ranger get Scribe Scroll, then that would help add to the Archivist's book - it does cost a feat and scroll scribing time/XP/money though and well... it duplicates spells that the party already has. Not really an issue (and frankly, if they want to spend the feat/time on it, I'd let it go ahead) but just thought I'd make you aware of it.

I'd suggest Spellthief 1 & Master Spellthief (Complete Scoundrel) to give trapfinding and spell stealing to the bard, I don't know of a way to just add Trapfinding without losing spells - at least this way the player can keep the caster level and get other goodies, like the ability to 'steal' spells off the Archivist. I think Geometer also gives an ability similar to Trapfinding, if you're willing to let your archivist into that PrC. Could come a little late though, but it might be worth a look if you're interested.

All my caffeine-deprived brain can think of for Archivist spell suggestions is HARM (thanks, Malack:smallannoyed:). Hopefully someone else will be able to come up with a more reasonable list of suggestions, based on the role you want him to play :smallsigh: You don't necessarily want him to have the lowest spell level additions available.

[Chronos]

It doesn't matter whether the other casters have Scribe Scroll, since the archivist himself has it. Multiple casters can collaborate to make a magic item, and only one of them needs to have the feat. All you need is their cooperation for the time needed to make it.

[MrRigger]

It doesn't matter whether the other casters have Scribe Scroll, since the archivist himself has it. Multiple casters can collaborate to make a magic item, and only one of them needs to have the feat. All you need is their cooperation for the time needed to make it.

This is very true. The Ranger doesn't need Scribe Scroll for the Archivist to duplicate their spells, if the Ranger provides the spell and the Archivist provides the xp, gp, and feat, the scroll still gets made.

This is also something you need to be aware of due to the fact that if the Archivist wants to duplicate any common spell, all they have to do is visit the local church or druid grove and see what they want in trade. Typically, when I play an Archivist, my first stop in town is the churches to see if they have any spells they're willing to trade, either for spells I have that they don't, or access to my Scribe Scroll feat, as in, you let me make a scroll to add to my Prayerbook, I'll scribe up a bunch of Cure Disease Scrolls for your use, or whatever they want. Let's face it, not all Clerics choose Scribe Scroll as a feat, so they might desire the opportunity to add to their reserves, even if they can cast the spell already.

MrRigger

[Elfinor]

Huh, ok then - my players have never taken advantage of it and neither have I. Sorry for misleading you Little Brother.Typing out your name makes me feel so awkward...

[Little Brother]

Okay, Mystic Ranger guy has decided to play the bard, so we're looking at Bard(good player), Archivist(good player), Warblade(Newb), Crusader(newb), and I don't know(newb). Still undecided with that guy, advice?

Also, what I've decided to do it give him all of the Cure line, and heal, and then let him pick 12 spells with no more than 5/level, and I have to approve them first, and we've discussed him being support/buff until we need him and the bard to carry the newbs. Considering also giving him the Inflict line.

And he isn't taking scribe scroll, and he knows I'm limiting his spells that he'll find, too. He likes blasting, too, so we should be fine.

Thanks for all the help, guys.

[MrRigger]

He doesn't have to take Scribe Scroll, all Archivists have it as a bonus feat at level one, or were you altering that? Personally, I'd give him more spells than that. Partially on the basis that a fair number of Cleric/Druid spells are fairly situational, partially on the basis that having a low number of spells doesn't fit with the flavor of the Archivist (who is supposed to be a seeker of knowledge), and partially on the basis that if a prepared caster doesn't have a good sized list to prepare from, they may end up feeling like a Favored Soul with less spontaneity (not saying this will happen, just saying it might). Of course, it's up to you.

MrRigger