Terrain ideas for level 20 fight to the death

[Duragonburo]

The party:

All characters are level 20, single class only (except the wizard)

An elf druid (no specialization), a gnome sorcerer (battlefield control), a human wizard/Archmage (no specialization), a ??? monk, a human cleric (no specialization) and a human Ranger (focused on his bow).


Likely, all but the monk can fly.

Can you suggest any special terrain type or some setting that would be fun to play with?
We did the first round in a forest with jagged ridges that they could climb and thus get at those pesky flyers.

Surprise, surprise, no spellcaster died.

I am open for changes in the middle of the fight, so feel free to suggest anything that might challenge the players (like a wild anti-magic zone or a lavapit). But no monsters on the board since these fights take long enough on their own without them...

[Tyndmyr]

Flying ships, side by side.

A tesseract intersecting several planes. There's nothing like Bull rushing someone to hell.

A flooding flying castle, while it collapses from the excess water weight. Make sure to allow epic swim checks to swim up the inevitable waterfalls from damage.

On the back of the terrasque.

[Vladislav]

In the belly of the Tarrasque

[Zonugal]

Why not steal a location from pop culture?

For example Mustafar makes for a very good terrain/area for an epic fight:

http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/1/262/261148/thumb_620x2000/mustafar.jpg

[nedz]

Why not an especially random plane of the Abyss? It could change its characteristics every round; give it its own initiative too.

[Squeejee]

One thing I did for an epic level fight was place the party in a normal plane - but have their every action create a resounding effect on the area. Like if you swing your sword at an enemy, the resultant shock-wave deals damage to the wall behind him and may cause it to collapse - it ultimately boiled down to "the DM does a bunch of random, crazy awesome stuff to spice things up," but it was a fun, memorable fight. If you place them in a randomly shifting plane or someplace with no set rules, it's the same effect - but instead of "the player swings his sword and knocks out a wall," you get "the player swings his sword and the wall falls down for no apparent reason," which to the GM in me sounds a lot like taking something away from the players, which is bad.

Another cool idea: the party is at an intersection between two planes, but instead of there being a line where one plane ends and the other begins, it's an area where the two planes overlap: so if a player is standing at A23 in plane A, he is also standing at A23 in plane B. They can choose which plane they're standing on (what may be deadly terrain in one could be safe in another) and are simultaneously aware of what's happening in either plane, but cannot interact with the plane they are not standing in. What really makes it cool is if the planes have wildly different properties - say plane A is earth, but plane B is astral, so you can "shift" between the two with a certain force of will and suddenly your gravity is wildly different. Maybe the earth has a bunch of anti magic fields scattered around it but the astral plane is not, so the players must use astral travel to go to places where their magic functions, then shift back to earth to cast it on earth-based enemies (or they could work together to force the enemies into the astral plane, where they are blasted with impunity). It also gives your NPCs creative options for avoiding the PC's strengths - worried about AOOs? They shift to another plane, move freely, and shift back. Sneak attack and then shift planes away to avoid retribution, move tactically in a way that forces the players to look carefully at both maps at all times in order to keep from getting swarmed.

[Tyndmyr]

. If you place them in a randomly shifting plane or someplace with no set rules, it's the same effect - but instead of "the player swings his sword and knocks out a wall," you get "the player swings his sword and the wall falls down for no apparent reason," which to the GM in me sounds a lot like taking something away from the players, which is bad.

Honestly, that sounds like exactly the same thing, just described in slightly different terms.

W regards to the interplanar idea, I point you toward the SBG, in which there's a building with every room on a different plane.

I'd also point out that advice seems limited strictly to a fight or fights between the above players, so I'm not sure the bit about encounters with NPCs is at all relevant. I don't think getting the players to work together is what this is about.

[Cespenar]

There are moving portals all over the battlefield. You can intentionally go in one of them, or if you end your turn on the path of one, it goes over you, effecting you as normal. Depending on your taste, the portal twins and their paths could be static, or if you want even more chaos, totally random.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

At level 20? Terrain is mostly obsolete, except for the ranger and monk.

You've got three Tier 1 classes and a Tier 2 class. Plane Shift is old hat, teleportation is 'awww, cute, lookie that. I was only doing that, what, three years ago?', and flight is simply an understood constant since mid-levels.

Obstacles, distance, terrain features... these don't matter. They haven't for a very long time. Even extraplanar effects can be negated with pathetic ease.

The only thing that terrain will do is make the monk and ranger even more useless to the encounter than normal.

[Tokuhara]

Limbo. It nixes flying (Laws of Physics in Limbo tend to change randomly), the terrain shifts at the whim of d% dice, and it makes a fight far more dynamic. Think of the fight scene at the end of Broly the Legendary Super Saiyan or even the battle on Planet Namek. The planet is crumbling around Goku and Broly, the terrain is constantly in change, and it made the fights absolutely epic.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Limbo. It nixes flying (Laws of Physics in Limbo tend to change randomly), the terrain shifts at the whim of d% dice, and it makes a fight far more dynamic. Think of the fight scene at the end of Broly the Legendary Super Saiyan or even the battle on Planet Namek. The planet is crumbling around Goku and Broly, the terrain is constantly in change, and it made the fights absolutely epic.

Plane Shift fixes this. They got access to it five levels ago.

Planar Asylum also fixes this, if they have access to SpC

[Zonugal]

What about the former body of a now dead god within the Astral plane? They can be hurling towards something so as to give tension in the form of a countdown and it also allows for them to possibly destroy their environment for tactical reasons.

[Tokuhara]

Plane Shift fixes this. They got access to it five levels ago.

Planar Asylum also fixes this, if they have access to SpC

You remember that magic when cast in limbo sometimes acts "screwy," right?

[candycorn]

I prefer a cat and mouse maze, with hallways that are 10x10, and lots of corners. It allows flight to provide more speed, and sometimes maneuverability, but keeps things honest.

Include passages up, as well, and perhaps 5x5 chimneys connecting some areas.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You remember that magic when cast in limbo sometimes acts "screwy," right?

Unless you have Planar Asylum up when you enter, in which case none of the planar effects affect you. Including that one.

[tyckspoon]

At level 20? Terrain is mostly obsolete, except for the ranger and monk.

You've got three Tier 1 classes and a Tier 2 class. Plane Shift is old hat, teleportation is 'awww, cute, lookie that. I was only doing that, what, three years ago?', and flight is simply an understood constant since mid-levels.

Obstacles, distance, terrain features... these don't matter. They haven't for a very long time. Even extraplanar effects can be negated with pathetic ease.

The only thing that terrain will do is make the monk and ranger even more useless to the encounter than normal.

Tactically, obstacles that break line of sight and especially line of effect are still highly relevant. The fact that you can easily break through or bypass a Wall of Force, for example, doesn't negate the fact that you have to spend your actions and resources doing so. Especially if your opponent just suckered you into teleporting into the area of a Greater Anticipate Teleport. The 'terrain' just has to scale to the fight; ditches and turned-over benches won't cut it any more.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Tactically, obstacles that break line of sight and especially line of effect are still highly relevant. The fact that you can easily break through or bypass a Wall of Force, for example, doesn't negate the fact that you have to spend your actions and resources doing so. Especially if your opponent just suckered you into teleporting into the area of a Greater Anticipate Teleport. The 'terrain' just has to scale to the fight; ditches and turned-over benches won't cut it any more.

MDJ or go home. Gets rid of all of the above. At the same time. And debuffs the target. At the same time. Then use quicken celerity to sudden maximize time stop, or whatever other method of destroying the action economy, to one-round win.

[Hirax]

White out conditions (snow). Did anyone prepare snowsight? Yeah, that's what I thought. In the event the druid did prepare it, can they get it on the entire party?

[Zonugal]

Shneekey, I think you may be approaching this with a different expectation than the original poster, or perhaps even everyone else in this thread.

What do you think would be a fun, vivid, challenge and overall memorable environment/terrain for such a conflict?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shneekey, I think you may be approaching this with a different expectation than the original poster, or perhaps even everyone else in this thread.

What do you think would be a fun, vivid, challenge and overall memorable environment/terrain for such a conflict?

I'm pointing out that there isn't one for this group. Fun, vivid, challenge, and overall memorable environment/terrain lasts for about the first twelve levels or so. Once you can declare environment to suit your fancy, it all becomes irrelevant.

ALL THREE of the 'Big 3' Tier 1 classes in the same group? There is no environment which can challenge them.

[Safety Sword]

I'm pointing out that there isn't one for this group. Fun, vivid, challenge, and overall memorable environment/terrain lasts for about the first twelve levels or so. Once you can declare environment to suit your fancy, it all becomes irrelevant.

ALL THREE of the 'Big 3' Tier 1 classes in the same group? There is no environment which can challenge them.

We could just pretend that it's not a Schrodinger party and that they don't have every spell available all the time. Or that it's optimised to the point where it's not a game anymore and just a study in applied mathematics. People do have games like that :smalltongue:

My advice to the OP. Why make it one location? What about a changing location? Assuming it's not rocket-tag, *bang* done in one round.

How about a custom effect that changes the environmental conditions and dispels a buff per round? To make it fair you should have let the players know this is a possibility somewhere along the line however...

I do agree that a standard and known environment is easily ignored at the level you're playing at.

[dspeyer]

A set of tunnels inside a volcano. Very cramped, so you don't need flight. If you crack certain walls, lava shoots out in a thin, high-pressure stream and then pools in a low place. If you damage other points, you trigger major earthquakes and change how the tunnels connect. And if you damage too much, the volcano erupts and destroys a nearby city.

[Zonugal]

I'm pointing out that there isn't one for this group. Fun, vivid, challenge, and overall memorable environment/terrain lasts for about the first twelve levels or so. Once you can declare environment to suit your fancy, it all becomes irrelevant.

ALL THREE of the 'Big 3' Tier 1 classes in the same group? There is no environment which can challenge them.

The only problem with this approach is it assumes a great deal about the party and the players, as well as the DM.

We don't know if they are playing these tier 1 classes to their full extent. We also don't know if they are handicapping themselves to allow for more challenging situations.

A lot of assumptions and you know what happens when we assume...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The only problem with this approach is it assumes a great deal about the party and the players, as well as the DM.

We don't know if they are playing these tier 1 classes to their full extent. We also don't know if they are handicapping themselves to allow for more challenging situations.

A lot of assumptions and you know what happens when we assume...

It requires zero optimization to have Overland Flight always-on, which by itself breaks 90% of terrain problems. Every wizard has at least one Teleport, and if you're anticipating plane-walking, then plane Shift is also definitely on the menu.

This is Core, spells which almost every wizard known has on their list, which completely negates any and all terrain problems.

This is assuming he's a 20th level Wizard/Archmage who takes basic precautions anyone that level takes as a matter of course.

[Sith_Happens]

It requires zero optimization to have Overland Flight always-on, which by itself breaks 90% of terrain problems. Every wizard has at least one Teleport, and if you're anticipating plane-walking, then plane Shift is also definitely on the menu.

This is Core, spells which almost every wizard known has on their list, which completely negates any and all terrain problems.

This is assuming he's a 20th level Wizard/Archmage who takes basic precautions anyone that level takes as a matter of course.

Well, there's also the fact that the OP is not asking for challenging terrain, just cool/fun terrain. So, assuming the players are able to bypass most or all difficulties posed by the terrain, what kind of terrain would then be most awesome to fight in?

(Personally, I'm seconding Mustafar:smallbiggrin:)

[Tokuhara]

It requires zero optimization to have Overland Flight always-on, which by itself breaks 90% of terrain problems. Every wizard has at least one Teleport, and if you're anticipating plane-walking, then plane Shift is also definitely on the menu.

This is Core, spells which almost every wizard known has on their list, which completely negates any and all terrain problems.

This is assuming he's a 20th level Wizard/Archmage who takes basic precautions anyone that level takes as a matter of course.

Shneekey, remember: DM>Optimization. A DM can simply say, "Plane Shift doesn't work here." As for flight and teleport, shifting terrain has a funny way of screwing with these 2 spells. Can't really fly when a pillar of stone rises right in front of you. And teleport isn't as much fun when you teleport into a mountain that just rose from the ground...

[Misery Esquire]

~Wizard, wizard, wizard~

Terrain Effect ; all casters are hit by 8000 Disjunctions cast by level 500 Wizards.

Terrain Effect 2 ; Permanent AMF

Terrain Effect 3 ; All paper, magical or not, is permanently on fire.

Terrain Effect 4 ; Ignore the previous effects, DM Fiat is here.

So, now that "Wizards ignore all the cool looking terrain ever, blah, blah, blah" is dealt with, let's see what there is out there.

To steal a line from Avatar Floating Mountains? (http://images.travelpod.com/users/livingmydream/1.1262273620.avatar-floating-mountains.jpg) Or maybe Avatar (The Last Airbender this time) Upside-down Temple? (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_sdi_E28HbZ4/S_qM-UpZhEI/AAAAAAAAAWo/uLAqTSnnWrY/s1600/Western+Air+Temple.jpg) with the bottoms on magical God-fire? Prehaps Ragnarok itself (http://dailymythogies.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/ragnarok_by_harrybuddhapalm.jpg) is going on around them, last one standing wins.

[Qwertystop]

In the general vicinity of an epicized Teratomorph. With Tarrasque regeneration on all of them.

Team up to destroy the disturbance, or deal with it until your real enemies are dead.

[ILM]

It requires zero optimization to have Overland Flight always-on,
On the topic of Overland Flight, I should point out that average maneuverability kind of sucks, and that it's only Sorc/Wiz so that clerics and druids only get it through Limited Wish (within Core).

How about in or around an old tower frozen in time in the middle of an explosion? Debris suspended everywhere, lots of cover, etc. Yes, I stole the idea from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12081665&postcount=3).

[Tyndmyr]

It requires zero optimization to have Overland Flight always-on, which by itself breaks 90% of terrain problems. Every wizard has at least one Teleport, and if you're anticipating plane-walking, then plane Shift is also definitely on the menu.

This is Core, spells which almost every wizard known has on their list, which completely negates any and all terrain problems.

This is assuming he's a 20th level Wizard/Archmage who takes basic precautions anyone that level takes as a matter of course.

So? Dispels happen. You don't really want to be over lava when someone dispels your overland flight. Sure, wizards have spells to fix that, but it means spending spells, actions or contingencies, etc fixing that. Ablative defenses are not limitless.

The fact that you can possibly fix the problem doesn't negate the fact that it IS a problem.

For instance, the flying ships idea popped up before? Yeah, ships are moving every round. This means that anyone flying needs to blow a significant part of their movement keeping up with the ship in most cases. It doesn't much matter how awesome you are if you can't draw LoE to where you need to nuke.

Environment still matters in very high level battles. Just in an entirely different scale than a tree or a bench does at low level.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Terrain Effect ; all casters are hit by 8000 Disjunctions cast by level 500 Wizards.

Terrain Effect 2 ; Permanent AMF

Terrain Effect 3 ; All paper, magical or not, is permanently on fire.

Terrain Effect 4 ; Ignore the previous effects, DM Fiat is here.

So, now that "Wizards ignore all the cool looking terrain ever, blah, blah, blah" is dealt with, let's see what there is out there.

To steal a line from Avatar Floating Mountains? (http://images.travelpod.com/users/livingmydream/1.1262273620.avatar-floating-mountains.jpg) Or maybe Avatar (The Last Airbender this time) Upside-down Temple? (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_sdi_E28HbZ4/S_qM-UpZhEI/AAAAAAAAAWo/uLAqTSnnWrY/s1600/Western+Air+Temple.jpg) with the bottoms on magical God-fire? Prehaps Ragnarok itself (http://dailymythogies.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/ragnarok_by_harrybuddhapalm.jpg) is going on around them, last one standing wins.

And player says "If you didn't want me to play a wizard, why didn't you just say so in the first place? Screw this, I'm gonna hang with my girl. Later."

Telling a player you can't play your class is only going to piss off the player. Which is pretty much what this boils down to.

[Duragonburo]

I see I somehow forgot to tell you that these guys I'm playing with have never played above 8th level.

They don't know how to maximize any spells, choose items, raise spell save DC and worst, all besides the Archmage nobody really knows the spells, which spells to pick and why they'd matter in this situation.

So nobody picked planar shift or anything like that.

Most of the spells cast are offensive (evoc).

Also, I plan to spring this on them.
The last two fights have been in forests, and though fun, this group needs a little something to liven things up.

Having said all this, I quite like the Mustafar idea, the flying ship and the spelltower exploding but frozen in time.

Great ideas all, guys! Thank you.

I just don't think the flying ships would be real popular if the monk and the wizard were the only ones left on seperate ships. Distinctly remember the monk failing to jump a 15-20 ft. gap... But what a way to go!

So how would one make the Mustafar terrain special? If you stand in one place the hardened lava sinks, dealing 1d10+5 fire damage? Running over a non-hardened gap in the lava has a 5% chance of lava shower from below, REF DC 20 or die? Toxic fumes? Vision blurred to 30 ft. by all the smoke?

What else?

The frozen tower? How would one go about setting up all the torn and blasted objects still in the air:smallconfused:? Any magic items just lying around? Hidden doors for the elves? Pockets of wild magic?

I'd like to make it just one big room, likely a library or a big storageroom in some obscure kings dungeon since when the fight commences they usually all just gang up on each other.

What do you reckommend?
Any other bright ideas?

[Zonugal]

So how would one make the Mustafar terrain special? If you stand in one place the hardened lava sinks, dealing 1d10+5 fire damage? Running over a non-hardened gap in the lava has a 5% chance of lava shower from below, REF DC 20 or die? Toxic fumes? Vision blurred to 30 ft. by all the smoke?

It depends on if you really want to capture the essence of that environment (and thus that fight scene from the film) or simply draw inspiration from it.

I'll go with the first and say that there are some things that can make this a challenging but memorable environment.

*Have infrastructure constantly giving away or being lost. You can do this by designating each building/foundation with a number corresponding to a die roll. Each round roll that dice and whatever comes up begins to weaken. If it should be rolled again it starts to crumble into the lava. This also gives you a chance to play around with changing/twisting dimensions. A nice display might be building a paper cube that you can keep turning around (revealing different things for the characters to leap towards or fight on).

*Have the lava be a real huge threat. Should a player fall into it, that is going to pretty much bring them out of the encounter (unless they have high resistances/immunity to fire). You can have molten steps which have formed from cooling that act as guiding stones around the environment. Two rounds on the same stone causes it to sink into the lava (and if so happens it takes another two rounds for it to reappear).

*Having sulfur and harsh gases in the air can add an element of tension through a timed encounter. Consider deducting a hit point every round the players stay in the environment. This will be trivial at their level but can aid the players in feeling the danger of such an atmosphere. I also like the sulfur interfering with vision so you'll have to decide if you want it to be extreme (30ft.) or moderate (60ft.). Either way it is a great idea to raise the stakes.

*Lava/Molten explosions can occur via random dice rolls corresponding to grids or squares on the map. If you have a 20 by 20 squared map all you need to do is roll 2d20 and then say that square is immediately filled with a burst of temporary lava equivalent to a fireball spell.

Those are just some ideas off the top of my head though.