Jade Phoenix Mage: Tier 0 or Useless

[wayfare]

I am considering playing a Jade Phoenix mage in an upcoming game, but bounced the idea off my DM first as I thought the PrC might be too powerful. He thought quite the opposite -- that the class was too MAD to be useful.

Anybody have any experience with this PrC? Any advice would be appreciated!

[Mr.Bookworm]

Given that there are five tiers between 0 and 6, the word you're looking for here is "good".

They're Tier 3, like the rest of ToB. You can build a good gish with them and they get some neat abilities, although it's not RKV winnage.

I personally think the picture for it looks unbelievably stupid, but that's pretty much my only mark against them.

[Fax Celestis]

Neither. It is a very solid gish class from a late publication, one centered around being very good at killing things with blunt--and occasionally sharp or pointy--objects. While you can get nines with it, it serves better in a chassis less interested with maxing spellcasting and more interested in focused gishery. One of my favorite builds with it is Duskblade 5/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4, which is very much centered on hitting things as hard as possible. Between Arcane Wrath, the Arcane Strike feat, spell channeling, and maneuvers, it will always have some way to hit things, and hit them hard. But, frankly, that's all it does: hit things.

[wayfare]

Thanks for the input -- I'll take it without worry now!

[Hiro Protagonest]

*raises eyebrow*

Really? Gish are either broken or broken?

It's tier 2-3.

[Psyren]

Given that there are five tiers between 0 and 6, the word you're looking for here is "good".

I wish more people understood this.

Also; they are awesomesauce with Wu Jen, both for flavor and crunch. Body Outside Body clones can still perform maneuvers (Phoenix Unity style from Jade Empire :smallamused:) and Transcend Mortality + Emerald Immolation is... well, let's just say the BBEG won't be too happy when you use it.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

My favorite approach to JPM is to go Crusader 1/CASTER 4 (using Favored to get a free skill point in concentration)/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5. Your caster class is either going to be some specialist wizard or wu jen, if you want to maximize on the oriental fluff.

As far as PrCs go, it's inferior to most of the rest of what ToB offers. On the caster side of things, it is better than Eldritch Knight, but worse than Knight Phantom and Abjurant Champion. Although, it does offer some sweet maneuvers as a side benefit.

[Douglas]

Your DM has a point. It's a gish class, and it provides no built in way to apply your spellcasting ability score to any combat stats. As a melee character who can't use much armor (due to spell failure chance), you will want high strength, dex, and con. As a caster, you will want high int or charisma, depending on your casting class. That's four ability scores competing for your precious points, on par with the Monk which is famous for its extreme MAD, and the class itself does nothing to help reduce that list.

For a melee class, it has small hit dice and very limited discipline access for its maneuvers. For a casting class, it loses a few levels of casting progression. It has a few abilities to help the casting and melee synergize with each other and make up for these problems - spending spells to boost your attacks reduces the need for high attack stats, getting high DR makes up for the hit dice, and free empower and quicken 1/encounter boost your spells a bit - but the problems they're compensating for are big enough that its mostly compensation rather than extra boosts.

[wayfare]

*raises eyebrow*

Really? Gish are either broken or broken?

Wouldn't say that -- The potential to get 8-9th level spellcasting and maneuver based tactical teleportation did seem pretty powerful, though. Hence why I went to my DM.

[Yorae]

I'm currently playing a JPM* in a campaign we've got going and the class feels pretty solid, but not overpowered. Having your spell acquisition slowed down seems to balance it out alright. I've found it to be a lot of fun - go for it.

Protip: See if you can pick up some diamond mind maneuvers as a warblade and then later take martial study or pick up a ring of the diamond mind to learn Avalanche of Blades. Combine with a big ol' greatsword, Arcane Strike, and (optionally) Wraithstrike and/or a spell that adds damage per hit (I like Flames of Purity from SpC). Requires you to blow a feat or two, but that can really lay a hurtin' on something if you can set it up.

I make up for the armor limitations with AC-increasing spells buffed via Abjurant Champion.

(*Warblade 2 / Transmuter 4 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Jade Phoenix Mage 10)


maneuver based tactical teleportation

Shadow Hand is not one of the schools JPM allows you to learn from. You'd get the same thing from just dipping swordsage without any JPM.

[Psyren]

Thing is, gishes don't need a ton of <casting stat>. You can literally start with a 14-16 in your casting stat and rely on items to get access to the top-end spells. So being MAD isn't that much of an issue.

Or the reverse; you have a higher int and middling physical scores, and rely on your innate buffs (and items again) to make you a bit tougher, stronger, etc. Even jank like Transformation still lets you perform maneuvers after all.

[gorfnab]

Bard based JPM can be amusing.
Bard 6/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ JPM 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ JPM 8

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Another note: as an arcane caster, never ever take the Martial Study line of feats. Instead, rely on either items, or, even better the Heroics spell to gain access to the maneuvers of your choice when you need them.

[Yorae]

Thing is, gishes don't need a ton of <casting stat>. You can literally start with a 14-16 in your casting stat and rely on items to get access to the top-end spells.

Also note that, as a gish, your save DCs don't matter as much, since you are (or should be) typically casting spells on yourself.

[Psyren]

Also note that, as a gish, your save DCs don't matter as much, since you are (or should be) typically casting spells on yourself.

Yeah, I meant to make that clearer but didn't :smalltongue:

[Morph Bark]

Neither. It is a very solid gish class from a late publication, one centered around being very good at killing things with blunt--and occasionally sharp or pointy--objects. While you can get nines with it, it serves better in a chassis less interested with maxing spellcasting and more interested in focused gishery. One of my favorite builds with it is Duskblade 5/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4, which is very much centered on hitting things as hard as possible. Between Arcane Wrath, the Arcane Strike feat, spell channeling, and maneuvers, it will always have some way to hit things, and hit them hard. But, frankly, that's all it does: hit things.

Does the Duskblade get any/enough abjuration spells to enter Abjurant Champion? I never really looked over their spell list in detail, all I remember are touch spells and a buff spell that adds +2 to all physical stats.

[Fax Celestis]

It gets a couple. Dispelling touch is probably the best bet, since you can channel it.

1st: resist energy, lesser deflect
2nd: deflect
3rd: energy aegis, dispelling touch, protection from energy
4th: dispel magic
5th: slashing dispel