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veven
2011-10-24, 05:35 PM
As a DM how do you deal with the existence of high-level NPCs in your games? Especially when whatever the PCs are dealing with would be of interest to said NPC?

jindra34
2011-10-24, 05:40 PM
As a DM how do you deal with the existence of high-level NPCs in your games? Especially when whatever the PCs are dealing with would be of interest to said NPC?

Remind myself and players that just because Plot/villian A is what they are currently dealing with that doesn't mean there isn't plots/villians B through Z that need dealing with, and that some of those may be even tougher.

Ur-Quan
2011-10-24, 05:40 PM
When I use powerful NPCs in my campaigns I often keep them tightly woven within the story and their position. A level 15 NPC is possibly a leader of an army, a godlike fighter winning wars for money, duelist known for her performance, a ranger which keeps to his forest and rules it with an iron fist, a dictator of a country (Tarquin ^^), and so on, and so on. You don't really have freeloading powerful people in any world, so you shouldn't have them in your fantasy world either.

I often run low-fantasy settings, so reaching even level 5 elevates you to a hero status, making bards sing songs about your heroics and goblins hiding in fear. A hero of level 20, at least how I run it, would get himself ballads sung in every language ever, recognization in every tavern ever and a powerful position in the society.

Basically, it all depends on the scale of your setting.

Shadowknight12
2011-10-24, 05:41 PM
By making sure that, whatever this puny villain of mine is plotting, there are at least 10 higher-leveled villains with far, far worse schemes. I mean, really. Does anyone seriously think that only one villain per week is allowed to threaten the world? It doesn't work that way. Peasants sleep soundly precisely because they don't know the many different ways their peaceful lives could be destroyed at any moment.

Until the PCs get to the same level as the powerful NPCs, they don't get to face the threats they face. When they do, they take over, one way or another.

EDIT: Rogues, rogues everywhere.

TroubleBrewing
2011-10-24, 05:41 PM
They're busy with something else?


I mean, if you just picked up a new cookbook you've been DYING to try, all your friends are coming over for a dinner party, and you have to conjure up some Avocado Elementals for guacamole, you aren't going to have the time to help out every Fighter, Rogue, or Cleric that comes to the door begging for the arcane secrets needed to defeat the God King of Ashenmoor! I mean, that's just rude.

Gensh
2011-10-24, 05:41 PM
I believe the general rule is that they're all working together in two or so groups, but no one is actually able to do anything because then the other side will interfere. Like you'll have the Justice League and the Legion of Doom, but neither really does anything drastic unless they're prepared to deal with the other side beforehand. It helps especially if the world itself is in no danger since that can cause the villains to help the heroes in many cases, requiring you to bring in some sort of crazy super-powerful cult to keep them from saving the world without the PCs. In either case, there's a strong status quo, and the PCs are the young up-and-comers who will shift the balance of power in one direction once and for all.

Except when the high level NPCs are just lazy and jaded. That's pretty common too.

legomaster00156
2011-10-24, 05:46 PM
Some of the high-level NPC's in my game...

1. Astral Knights are indeed actively fighting back, as they patrol the country that they protect and fight off invaders. In war, they are organized into an active "elite" military branch (though they may refuse to mobilize if their deities tell them not to).
2. The Immortals, the adventuring party of one PC's father, is active, but being so high-level, they mostly just take on really big monsters that other, less experienced adventurers have no chance of defeating (Purple Worms in the dwarven mountains, for example).
3. An old, highly elite (level 20) party once sent the Tarrasque into another slumber. Unfortunately, just before they retired, an old enemy of theirs cursed them, and now even they can't remember their adventures, or each other. Their heroics still appear in bard's tales, but it is never their names in the tales.
4. There's an Archmage in a demiplane of his own creation, closely linked to the mortal world. However, he only rarely even leaves his demiplane, so he's practically removed himself from the world's events (that's what Archmages do, right?).

navar100
2011-10-24, 06:04 PM
In my group's campaign powerful NPCs do participate in background stuff that affects the world. We can interact with them, have them as friends and allies, etc.

My beef is I wish the DM would stop setting up overwhelming combats we can't possibly win only to have an NPC come in out of nowhere to save us.

Ravens_cry
2011-10-24, 06:12 PM
In my group's campaign powerful NPCs do participate in background stuff that affects the world. We can interact with them, have them as friends and allies, etc.

My beef is I wish the DM would stop setting up overwhelming combats we can't possibly win only to have an NPC come in out of nowhere to save us.
Yeah, there has got to be some way of doing it besides Mary Sue DMPC.

Gensh
2011-10-24, 06:14 PM
(that's what Archmages do, right?).

I don't know about your guy, but all the really high level mages in the last game I ran ended up being like Prof. X. All of them but one (the BBEG for the story path the party chose) dropped everything they were doing and became lecturers at a prestigious mages' college. All the PCs backstories made it where the college was hardly involved at all, but if I run another game in that setting, they'll serve as mentors and questgivers for the purpose of breaking the status quo I mentioned before.

Aidan305
2011-10-24, 06:22 PM
Politics and bureaucracy mostly in my campaigns. When an NPC gets to a certain level, they invariably start having responsibilities, wether it's an army, an academy, a country or a guild. A high level NPC can't simply drop these responsibilities to go off chasing after every villain to threaten the world or they'd never get anything done, the paychecks would go unsigned and the evil senator would successfully prevent the reforms the ruler wants to bring in.

That's kinda why they usually end up hiring adventurers to go defeat the bad guy for them. They may want to be out there adventuring, but they simply don't have the time to spare, or the willingness to put it ahead of other, more important things.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-10-24, 06:33 PM
They're busy with something else?
Pretty much.

I don't keep a lot of unattached high-level NPCs in my game. What makes the PCs unique is that they're successful adventurers who don't decide to retire and do something else with their powers. Everyone else decides to found a town, seek employment with Higher Powers, serve their former sponsors, and so on.

Of course, I've yet to run an actual "save the world" game, but if I did, chances are it would be an Epic Tier game (D&D4) and there wouldn't be anyone stronger.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-10-24, 06:39 PM
NPCs are Aragorn.

Or they're too busy running a town/city/barony/kingdom/empire.

Glimbur
2011-10-24, 06:45 PM
As a DM how do you deal with the existence of high-level NPCs in your games? Especially when whatever the PCs are dealing with would be of interest to said NPC?

They don't exist! A rather successful short campaign I ran took the players from about level 3 to level 5 or 6. They were the most powerful people in the city they were in... except that the nobility had money and followers. The party ended up almost succeeding in a coup but were struck down by a level 4 rogue straight from the DMG and his pet thunder-velociraptor.

gkathellar
2011-10-24, 06:57 PM
I can think of three good approaches, and one which falls apart because of Teleport.

1 - As others have said, the NPCs are busy, and not always with facing other threats. Sometimes you have to stick around a place to protect it, or you're the king and you can't run around gallivanting or pull out the army whenever you want. You don't get to high levels without racking up loads of things to do.

2 - Sometimes the NPCs are already involved, but the threat is so vast that they can't handle it on their own, or can't risk the attempt. If you're busy deadlocking the Elder Brain, it's nice to have some lower leveled PCs to do the heavy work of attacking the actual Mind Flayer colony. If they lose, no big deal. If they win, yay, you won!

3 - Because the PCs exist. High-level NPCs learn to see the big picture — they know that they don't have to deal with every problem, and if they attempt to they'll just be limiting the potential of others. They keep their eyes open for the occasions when they absolutely have to act, but otherwise prefer to cultivate new heroes to solve whatever problem has just sprung up.

4 - This one falls apart because of teleportation, but the obvious answer is: problems of distance. Sometimes the NPCs are just too far away. Sometimes they would intervene, but have no idea what's going on. Whatever the case, they're not present, and so the cup falls to the PCs.

bloodtide
2011-10-24, 06:58 PM
As a DM how do you deal with the existence of high-level NPCs in your games? Especially when whatever the PCs are dealing with would be of interest to said NPC?

In general they are busy with other stuff. mostly the stuff the PC's are interested in, are not the things the NPC's have interest in anyway.

But even when the high level NPC also wants the same thing, they often don't 'lower' themselfs to confront the PCs....they send goons.


And I use the classic power balance: Wizard A can't leave is kingdom as he knows Wizard B and Fighter A might take that chance to attack while he is distracted. Fighter B is an ally of A, but hates Wizard B so the two fighters might team up to attack Wizard B if he is distracted attacking wizard A. And so on and so on.

kaomera
2011-10-24, 08:03 PM
Don't run games with high-level NPCs.

Anderlith
2011-10-24, 08:30 PM
They don't exist..?

Nachtritter
2011-10-24, 08:32 PM
Here's what I'd do.

a) Powerful NPC needs help from PCs to save the world.
b) "Go forth, young Frodo/Conan/whatever to save the world and bring me back the magical jewel of MacGuffin while I try to retrieve the brazier of Whoozits from the dimension of butter."
c) MacGuffin retrieved, party gains gear, great joy is had, return to the powerful NPC.
d) Powerful NPC done messed up, turns out he wasn't as all-wise and all-knowing as he thought, giving the sense of fallibility. Is now on his deathbed, contritely asks PCs to clean up his mess.
e) "Look, I know I screwed things up. But they didn't get the items in my Most Secret of Treasure Rooms. I was going to use it to fight back, but there wasn't time. It's up to you to stop this madness now. I've learned the valuable lesson of humility - it's up to men greater than I to solve this. You... are those men."
f) PCs grab Gear of Awesomeness and go on an incredible journey the eventually eclipses those of their former mentor. Evil is defeated, balance restored, etc.
g) Powerful NPC looks at group when they return with shock and amazement, and calls them brothers. Swears to work with them and support them in all their tasks as best he can for the remainder of his life.
h) Roll credits, pass out xp, move on to Call of Cthulhu to put the fear of god back into your players.

MrRigger
2011-10-24, 08:49 PM
You could always do as Mahou Sensei Negima did, and create an NPC like Jack Rakan. Horribly powerful, one of the heroes of the last war, and able to be defeated by a handful of people in the entire world, but also tremendously mercenary, generally offensive, and disinclined to do anything that doesn't peak his interest.

MrRigger

Wyntonian
2011-10-24, 09:07 PM
That depends on what level you're playing at, in my philosophy.

High-Level NPC reaction when asked to help:

The "Let's go kill goblins" Level.

A. I have better stuff to do.
B. Um......why?
C. Nothing, as too busy meditating on top of mountain, fighting epic battle against demons, ruling nations/demiplanes, or getting very, very drunk with a near-epic WBL.

The "That was fun, now for other monster types!" Level.

A. Did that a week ago. Now they're back. Have fun.
B. Dude... I just told you to go do that... I'm busy running stuff here. Get on that.
C. See above.

The "Let's find the magical McMuffinGuffin and close the portal!" Level.

A. I'm the one opening the portal.
B. I'm the one keeping the portal from opening the portal all the way until you get your little errand-boy selves back.
C. I'm guarding the McGuffin. Good luck.
D. I don't exist, what, you think there's like a bakers dozen of us running around in every campaign? At level 21 you have a decent chance of getting a good slap in against a freaking Demigod, assuming you're a caster of some sort. Really. Think this through.

Alleran
2011-10-24, 11:24 PM
For me, they're usually off doing something else, or busy with their own affairs and don't have the time to fix the little things (I'm not going to run a "save the world from demon lords of the Abyss" plot when the PCs are only third level - they'll be looking at a much smaller scale of event). Odds are that if they were adventurers, they're done adventuring. They've hung up their staff and hobo-cloak, and settled down in something. Mages might be lecturers at a college, druids might run a circle. A popular choice for my NPC casters is that they go off planeswalking, and out there you find an entire multiverse of things to do while never returning to their home plane. Or they could build themselves a timeless demiplane and spend centuries designing and perfecting new magic, completely ignorant of the world outside.

Some of my mages end up like the Disciples of Aldur in the Belgariad/Malloreon series. They get up and move around when major events start taking place (or when they have to do something, like arrange marriages, remove "obstacles" from play, and so on), but they can also spend hundreds of years letting the world pass them by while they study, research, or just generally hang around in their towers. Border conflicts between this baron and that earl over the mountain range to the west is frankly below their level of interest when it isn't relevant to what they're doing at the time (they might be studying why stars fall, or the reason for mountains, or proving mathematically that 3+3=6).

Fighters might be joining the nobility or out-and-out running a kingdom, clerics busy with roles in their church, and so on and so forth. One NPC bard/rogue type was a kingdom's spymaster. Or they might have settled down with a family.

Unless trouble literally comes right to their doorstep, odds are that the high-level PCs can't just drop everything and run off to solve the problem. They have responsibilities. That's what adventurers are for. They're mobile, they don't have things tying them to one place, and it's not like you can run out of them.

Or, of course, the high-level NPCs might just not care. Epic level? Perfect new magic? Interesting, until it becomes boring or you want to do something else instead. Blow up a mountain? Sure, sure, but turning things into gravel becomes rather stale after a while. Or you run out of mountains. Rule a kingdom? Interesting, but all the niggling bits of statecraft, the constant chores, signing, governing... you just can't be bothered dealing with those headaches. Hrm, why bother getting up this morning at all? Yeah, it's lazy and can make them into jerks, but it happens.

And the last option is that the high level NPC is taking an active role. He's just operating against the PCs.

Cerlis
2011-10-24, 11:44 PM
The Ingorance Syndrome:whoever has plotted this is very cunning, very secretive, and have made a deliberate attempt to hide themselves from the Big Good. even if you find out his plans and tell the Big Good, the Big Bad has found some way to hide his plans and is clever enough to where the Big Good can bring much if any of his power to bear to fight him directly. he needs someone more discrete....

The Elemist syndrome: In ANimorphs There are two godly beings of highly evolved power. They had opposing viewpoints and ended up in a long war, with entire galaxies being destroyed in the crossfire. Since neither wanted the universe destroyed they decided to play universe chess. Each would nudge their champions in the right direction and sometimes allowed direct interferance, in a millinia long fight for the universe. This would be the case with any great powerful diefic beings

The Warcraft syndrome: The big good and big bad are already fighting it out, in fact he is the entire reason you havent been overrun and killed yet. weither its a climatic duel with yall helping or an entire campaign against an army of evil, the fight is at a stalemate and the Big Good has a plan on how, while he distracts their main forces, you can crack the chain in the big bad's weak link and bring about his downfall.

The Hokage Syndrome: In Naruto, the (basically) most powerful (and knowledgeable ) ninja becomes Hokage. However, despite this this severely limits the villages power. The Hokage must generally stay within the villiage, because if an enemy village found out their most powerful member was gone , it would be a great time for an attack. A great empire forged on the power of a lvl 20 paladin has MANY enemies, just waiting for him to leave his empire unguarded.

Elfinor
2011-10-24, 11:56 PM
Everyone has said good things, and I've bookmarked the thread - learnt a lot. Here are a few additional reasons to kick them out of the way.

Kryptonite: Some of them could have a severe phobia of/weakness to something or someone. One of the most powerful characters in my campaign is an Aelfborn (DR 307, crazy half-elf) Wizard, his magical tattoos stop him from going completely insane. He is very afraid of dead magic zones (which are slowly growing/appearing as the campaign progresses, a lot of fortresses are partially built on them) and anti-magic fields (most nations he could potentially piss off have one or two magi/psions on staff who can AMF). As a result, he rarely leaves his tower.

MadnessSPARTA!!!: Insanity/phobias in general can also be reasonable, they've probably been through a lot. For a twist, it could be calculated 'insanity' and they have a plot they're trying to pull.

Paper Tiger
The golden rule is: they're not as strong as everyone thinks they are, for whatever reason. This stops them interfering. Note that they'll probably use one of the justifications from everyone's previous suggestions, but it's a lie. If good (or 'good' *cough*), they're still an effective deterrent for BBEG - who will slowly ramp up his/her/their plans as they realise the truth. This gives the players time to get stronger as they foil BBEG's increasingly brazen plans. The rest of my suggestions are variations on this.

Replacement: The NPC's are dead, and have been replaced by (Greater) Doppelgangers (who probably had to pick him/her off while weak) or their own Simulacrum or polymorphed anyone. They simply keep up the charade that they're a powerful NPC, for various (not necessarily bad) reasons.

Weakened: If the High Level NPC is severely permanently weakened somehow (e.g. permanent level drain, a curse they cannot break [divine in origin?]) and pretends otherwise.

Gilderoy Lockhart: They're not really powerful, they've just been taking credit for the works of others and possibly murdering them.

Anderlith
2011-10-25, 12:48 AM
You could play them like the Doctor. They are off exploring the unexplored because they have the means (planeshifting & whatnot) & so they are gone a great deal, but they always seem to show up just when they need to.

ArcGygas
2011-10-25, 01:20 AM
The campaign I'm currently running in my own homebrew world has plenty of high level NPCs who are busy doing various things. What they're busy doing varies from character to character, but just like normal people, they too have lives (albeit much, much cooler ones).

The Paladin King of Bahamut keeps a constant vigil over the Valley because he knows Tiamat and some others from his adventuring days would love nothing more than to see his homeland a smoldering crater.

The Clockwork Prince (Artificer) runs an entire city (that's the size of a country) through his various creations and laws. 99% of his time is now spent at a bar, under a pseudonym, or crafting new trinkets. The other 1% is making sure the city is running properly or having the PCs stop the BBEG.

The Kingdom of Zeal Galas is run by a Mage King who trains their successor upon reaching 20+ level.

Grand Emperor of Valorace had to compete with his brothers, sisters, and cousins for the title. They now run the second largest kingdom in the world.

Just a few examples of what NPCs of high levels do, and perhaps why they can't (or sometimes can!) help the PCs with their quests.

kieza
2011-10-25, 01:30 AM
Mostly they're working on their own problems. I had a group once that had been in a FR campaign with another DM, and they were used to having godlike NPC's drop into every other session. (That DM liked DMPC's.) I managed to explain the difference IC, by giving them tavern tales: while they were on a quest to slay an evil lord of Faerie, lots of things were happening elsewhere.

--The nations of Waystone and Victas became embroiled in a war by proxy and dispatched "military advisors" to the protectorates that were duking it out. The party heard a popular song about two heroes, Colonel Arnold Williams and Commandant Arkady Tretyakov engaging in single combat during the climactic battle of the war.
--A dragon reached the "territorial and aggressive" stage of life and started burning towns in the dwarven highlands. A merchant got drunk and started talking about the treasures he'd seen carried down from its lair after Sir Valmouth and his boon companions killed it.
--Three members of the imperial court of Arcis Novis were assassinated by a Sanctean diplomat, who was challenged to a duel and killed by Father Orofino of the Reformed Order of the Merciful Lawgiver after it became apparent that he would not be brought to justice by normal means.

I usually write and mention two or three of these "tales of heroism" every time the party goes to a tavern. It helps give the impression that they aren't the only movers and shakers in the setting, and that they probably aren't nearly the toughest. (It may also help that the most powerful NPC's in my setting are only level 10 or so; I run with slow level advancement and give out other benefits like fame, property, contacts, and the occasional artifact or one-use uber-ability.)

ILM
2011-10-25, 04:27 AM
In my campaign world, the party is currently trying to figure out why the sun won't rise anymore. There are a few very high level NPCs.
- Two are practically elemental forces rather than people. Day, night, whatever, they don't care. In fact, this state of affairs suits one of them quite well.
- One is the general of an army guarding a hotly-contested border. No way she can go off on an errand, especially when the situation puts the opposing forces at an advantage.
- One is the head of the foremost mage’s guild. He’s the one who hired the party to help, and he’s working on other related stuff while they adventure.
- One is an assassin and another is the leader of a thieves’ guild (also illusionist extraordinaire). Honestly, while they do have business to attend to, I can’t really come up with a solid reason why they wouldn’t be involved in saving the world, as the end of days would still be detrimental to their affairs. I guess I could pretend they’re off following their own leads or thwarting related (or not) side threats, but for the moment I think it more prudent to not mention them at all. It helps that they’re figures of the underworld and that the PCs wouldn’t really have any knowledge of them.

There are also a few medium-level NPCs (10-ish) but they’re all tied up in organizations and hierarchy and stuff.

hewhosaysfish
2011-10-25, 06:53 AM
I want to run an Epic campaign now, where the PCs are saving the world from some Demilich who's trying to become a god or something (you know, the usual racket). And every day they're getting letters/Sending spells from ninth level adventures asking them to please help deal with the ogres/vampires/wyverns plaguing some county. And in every town they visit there'll be level 2 adventures who'll say things like "They could wipe out all those kobolds with one sweep of their hands. Why do we have to risk our lives? Obviously when you get to be so rich and famous and powerful, you mustn't think the peasants are worth your time."

See if the players are willing to take an afternoon out of their quest in order to scour a kobold-warren in exchange for 100gp and no xp. Or if they get really, really aggravated.

Saph
2011-10-25, 07:56 AM
Generally I go with one of two solutions:

The PCs aren't saving the world: This is my preferred one. You don't get to save the world until you're very very high level. You get to save a village, or a city, maybe a country if it's something big. NPCs who don't live in said village, city, or country don't care all that much.

There's other stuff going on: There are lots of high-level NPCs and lots of high-level villains and lots of plots to destroy/save/take over/marinate/do-something-unpleasant-to the world. The PCs are the centre of the story, but they aren't the centre of the universe. Other things are happening and the NPCs are busy with that.

Tiki Snakes
2011-10-25, 08:32 AM
Generally, I've gone with one of two options so far.
Either there are no relevant high level npc's, or the relevant high level npc's are basically to blame for the whole situation.

NPC's have often seemed more epic than they actually were, because that's just good politics. Also once or twice they have used the PC's purely in the name of plausible deniability.

There's nothing like sending a disfunctional band of idiots, maniacs and well meaning fools bumbling towards your secret target for keeping your hands clean.

Tyndmyr
2011-10-25, 08:33 AM
If you're saving the world at low levels, something very odd is at play. There's a LOT of higher level people with an interest in the world not ending.

At the sort of levels truly world threatening plots should be run(consult Elder Evils for a guideline), you should be epic, or getting sort of close to it. The amount of said people is dramatically smaller. A goodly portion of those people are likely working against you, and any remaining people are almost certainly tied up in similarly notable events. A level 20 wizard probably isn't scrapbooking.

valadil
2011-10-25, 08:34 AM
In my last game I let my players bump into Elminster just to see what would happen. They later called on him for a bailout and eventually called him in to help with the final boss.

The end result was fine. Even with a stupid powerful NPC, the plans still went awry, but way more fantastically than usual. Elminster wasn't a win button and the players still had to work for their victory.

Gnaeus
2011-10-25, 09:35 AM
Start with major restrictions on Scry & Die.

In the game I am currently playing, most major casters and plot sensitive NPCs are effectively immune to divinations. DM added some major houserules on magical + non-magical tricks that block divination magic. It is still useful, but it can't be used directly on the BBEG (so, for example, we can scry on a minion, but the scrying stops when he gets to shielded evil fortress, or we can commune to find someone who knows where bad-guy is, but we can't commune for him directly). Shielded evil fortress is shielded from teleport by similar tricks.

So the big good guy could do everything we are doing, but he can't just wave his hand to have it done. He would have to combine divinations and mundane research methods (like shoeleather). Then, after he found it, while he could teleport to the front door of bad guy's lair, he would then have to walk into somewhere where he can't scry, risking that his enemies might have set a trap for him. This takes some risk, and a lot of time and effort away from whatever his main job is. Easier to send adventurers.

Choco
2011-10-25, 09:41 AM
I do basically all of the following:

Why does High Level Hero X need the party to clear out that undead scout force for him? Why that's because he is too busy fighting Evil Villainous Lich Y. Not necessarily in person, but their 2 forces are definitely playing Political Chicken and the slightest sign of weakness or inattentiveness in one side is a chance for the other to strike. Ideally the PC's will become powerful enough to where they are the force that upsets the balance in the good guys favor.

Why does High Level Wandering Swordmaster X just sit back while Evil Blackguard Y's Facecrusher Army is invading? She just doesn't care, plain and simple. There's a reason she has taking to being a hermit or a nameless wanderer: she doesn't like attention, people, responsibility, all of the above, etc. She may train adventurers who impress her, but other than that does not care about anyone else. Nothing short of her being threatened personally, or an apocalyptic event that, will get her to care.

There are also battles on multiple fronts: Eventually the high-level NPC heroes start getting overwhelmed, and that is where the PC's come in. It's not that they can't do X task themselves or even that they don't want to, they are just preoccupied with other, often worse, threats. Once again ideally the PC's will grow to be powerful enough to turn the tide of the battle.

There is the ignorance and/or arrogance method. They either refuse to see that there is a problem, know the problem is there but don't consider it a threat to them, have been brainwashed or otherwise controlled by the villain(s), or simply view the problem as so far beneath them that they will not bother with it. Alternatively they honestly didn't know about the problem, but for whatever reason refuse to believe the PC's and/or anyone else that reports the problem.

So yeah that's basically it. High-level NPC's in my games are either already involved in the conflict on one side or another, are too preoccupied with other problems that they view as higher priority to get involved, or are aware of the situation but don't care to involve themselves.

Dingle
2011-10-25, 01:17 PM
I'd claim that most who haven't quit while they were ahead have ended up on the wrong side of a failed save, or cr inappropriate encounter.

it works with the impressively short chronological time needed to get to high levels, and also the way that xp is more or less proportional to the chance you could have died in the encounter.

so, you're only left with adventurers who've retired, and the ones who started in the last few years.
The PCs would be part of the second group, and the BBEG'd be somewhere in the middle (taking it easy by picking on weaker people)

Provengreil
2011-10-25, 01:32 PM
By making sure that, whatever this puny villain of mine is plotting, there are at least 10 higher-leveled villains with far, far worse schemes. I mean, really. Does anyone seriously think that only one villain per week is allowed to threaten the world? It doesn't work that way. Peasants sleep soundly precisely because they don't know the many different ways their peaceful lives could be destroyed at any moment.

Until the PCs get to the same level as the powerful NPCs, they don't get to face the threats they face. When they do, they take over, one way or another.

EDIT: Rogues, rogues everywhere.

that reminds me of Tommy Lee Jones in Men in Black: "...and the only reason these people can go on with their happy little live is that They. Don't. Know about it."

but yeah, that about sums up why a local dragon is a problem for the PCs, not Elminister; He's busy keeping the astral plane intact, cut the guy some slack.

Calimehter
2011-10-25, 03:43 PM
Lots of good ideas so far.

I take the easy way out these days. E6 means that high level NPCs "don't exist", at least not in the way that high level means "they port in and solve everything in 5 combat rounds with their super powers". They will get involved in PC plots from time to time, especially those involving saving the world, but their power rests as much in their organizations as it does in themselves. Help from them may not involve anything more powerful on a per-individual basis than anything the PCs can't already do themselves.

Shadowknight12
2011-10-25, 04:15 PM
that reminds me of Tommy Lee Jones in Men in Black: "...and the only reason these people can go on with their happy little live is that They. Don't. Know about it."

but yeah, that about sums up why a local dragon is a problem for the PCs, not Elminister; He's busy keeping the astral plane intact, cut the guy some slack.

Thanks, I guess that's what I was going for, yeah. The world is complex. It's a big tangled web of plots and conspiracies. The only time powerful NPCs become an issue is when the world is a sterile backdrop for the PCs, where nothing ever happens that doesn't directly relate to them. In a real, living world, things will be constantly happening and the PCs won't learn about even a thousandth of it all.

Gnoman
2011-10-25, 06:59 PM
The way I usually play it is this. There are incredibly powerful persons in the "background," but they all have their own agendas, plans, organizations, and, most importantly, they are not omnipotent. So, for example, Epic wizard Goodspell doesn't know that there's a cult on the other side of the continent trying to ressurect a dead god. He might hear rumors of dissapearing townfolk, but that's a job for less skilled people. He's busy plotting the downfall of epic wizard Moldybook. If the situation's less subtle than that, the way to handle it is that there't plenty of war for everyone.

Lhurgyof
2011-10-25, 07:03 PM
Perhaps the PC's are just low enough power they can slip under the radar. Whereas the big bad can have his main force working against the high level NPCs.

Ormur
2011-10-25, 07:35 PM
I played in a game where we were basically saving the world from level 5 onwards (that's when we got the artefact of doom) but we had no idea about it until maybe level 9. Then we started to seek the help of high level NPCs but there was a lot of stuff going on and it turned out many of them were missing (the BBEG had not been idle). We did manage to contact the King which was pretty much the most powerful guy that wasn't trying to end the world and we got him killed when we finally persuaded him to fight with us around level 15. That left us as the most powerful good guys in the world. It also turned out that there had been NPCs that knew about what was happening but either fled or were doing stuff to stop it without letting us know.

In my campaign the world itself is in no danger so I could justify having neutral high level NPCs. I kept the really powerful ones few and figured out beforehand where they stood. Until now my players haven't been the most powerful guys working for their cause but they've been in a sort of strike team position because the NPCs are busy heading armies and running states. Soon enough they'll probably be the most powerful "good guys" though.

Infernalbargain
2011-10-26, 12:55 PM
One that I'm currently employing is that it is in their interested to not become well known. Bill the master illusionist suddenly becomes less effective when everyone knows he's Bill the master illusionist. Another possible solution is that while they are good intentioned, they might be using ethically dubious means such as compulsion and necromancy.

Knaight
2011-10-26, 01:06 PM
I take the easy way out these days. E6 means that high level NPCs "don't exist", at least not in the way that high level means "they port in and solve everything in 5 combat rounds with their super powers". They will get involved in PC plots from time to time, especially those involving saving the world, but their power rests as much in their organizations as it does in themselves. Help from them may not involve anything more powerful on a per-individual basis than anything the PCs can't already do themselves.

I achieve the same result by playing games that aren't D&D. Said games are also not Exalted, Nobilis, Mutants and Masterminds, Amber, or Rifts, so they tend towards having characters with limited capacity to influence the world directly and without aid.

kieza
2011-10-26, 02:32 PM
The approach that I generally take is that, until they're high level, players may be helping to save the world, but they're just one part of the solution. My last really long-running campaign started out with the players seeking out and trying to join up with the good guys that were already involved. Even after they did that (which took about 5 levels), the tasks they undertook in the saving-the-world effort tended to be relatively low-key: carry diplomatic pouches, recruit new allies, perform surgical strikes, etc. Only at the very end of the campaign were they at the very forefront of the battles.

Gorgon_Heap
2011-10-26, 02:53 PM
I don't think I've seen anything here I disagree with.

For the most part, the games I run A) Do not involve world-saving. I find that way too over-done. B) There are higher-level people out there, but they are usually busy and the world is an awful big place.

Examples -

In a game set in FR the PCs were doing general low-level adventuring with the ultimate goal of reopening a trade road and slaying a well-known but not huge dragon. The problem? I set it in Cormyr during the war with the Shadovar. So the nation as a whole was occupied far away and Elminster and his wackiness were busy trying to knock a city out of the sky. The PCs had a purpose where they were, and hardly went unneffected by the war.

In a game set in DL the low-level PCs were traveling back and forth from Staughton to Solace, during which time rumors of some of their exploits were heard. Silver Claw, commander fo the Legion of Steel (and something like a 17th level guy) found them and specifically asked for their aid because a local village was in trouble, and if he or his commanders went to investigate they'd be recognized immediately. Perfectly logical and had nothing to do with differing power levels.

suhkkaet
2011-10-26, 04:48 PM
I let my PC's meet with the powerful NPC, and then play them all in specific ways. One thing I often do, is having the powerful NPC's have some ability which is, well, their dump stat. A highly powerful NPC Wizard will have near nothing in strength, for example, and is played as such. I also love low wis NPC's, since they're often pretty, eh, absentminded. And, of course, the simpleton druids.

Other than that, I do mostly what's been said in the thread already. They're too busy, ignorant, don't care, and simply can't help. That's why they hire the PC's.

Once have I had a powerful NPC help the PC's in defeating the BBEG in the final combat. As dice would have it, the powerful NPC ended up tripping over his own feet, several times. Then he fumbled so much with his weapons, and were generally more of a nuisance than help.
Then again, I'm not a fan of DMPC's.

RandomNPC
2011-10-26, 06:31 PM
My group has run into The Bard, a bard of such high level and talent that he is just The Bard, my group ate it up. They'll run into him a few more times before he reveals his plot. He's trying to guide the party bard to become the next one to have the title.

Another characters backstory involves him being trained as a sword sage by a master of the nine, he now is traveling to become better, and eventually become a master of the nine himself. Little does he know his old teacher is really The Warrior, ready to retire, he trained him as an apprentice and will pass the title down later.

There's an entire group of "The Adventurers" that hold titles like that, and most of them are seeking the next to hold the title before old age gets them, so that there will always be heroes about. They only stop in for a day or two to check on the group, as The Adventurers are still going on adventures of their own, and most of them have a few apprentices in case things don't work out with one elsewhere.

Maryring
2011-10-27, 06:04 AM
In my world, they are helping save the world. Well, those who are in agreement that the world needs saving at least. "Save the world" means different things for different people. The Warrior Princess and Archmage are fighting dragons and corrupt local lords. The Immortal Queen thinks that this is not a problem relevant to her nation, thus she has no reason to interfere. The Healer is actively travelling with the PCs to support them defensively. The Godchildren sent some of them to search elsewhere for the Plot Coupon, while the rest are trying to fix the mess the BBEG already has made and the Thug thinks that he is helping to save the world, he just isn't actually helping save the world. Only shift its power balance slightly.

Mastikator
2011-10-27, 12:32 PM
"The world" isn't threatened, doomsday doesn't occur every friday. I find hostile NPCs that want world destruction cheesy. A few megalomaniac ones may want to take over the world, others are in it for greed/revenge/something bad, but most have complex "non-evil" goals that merely conflict with everyone else's goals.
I also try to avoid overwhelmingly powerful NPCs, legendary people are few and far in between, most of the time the last one died many a years ago. If everything is epic then nothing is.

Paseo H
2011-10-27, 09:27 PM
Not sure if it's already been said, but it occurs to me that there is at least one real good reason to give powerful heroes pause to act freely:

Powerful villains who can counter their moves.

For every Doctor, there should be a Master.

theMycon
2011-10-27, 10:36 PM
When I use powerful NPCs in my campaigns I often keep them tightly woven within the story and their position. A level 15 NPC is possibly a leader of an army, a godlike fighter winning wars for money, duelist known for her performance, a ranger which keeps to his forest and rules it with an iron fist, a dictator of a country (Tarquin ^^), and so on, and so on. You don't really have freeloading powerful people in any world, so you shouldn't have them in your fantasy world either.

I often run low-fantasy settings, so reaching even level 5 elevates you to a hero status, making bards sing songs about your heroics and goblins hiding in fear. A hero of level 20, at least how I run it, would get himself ballads sung in every language ever, recognization in every tavern ever and a powerful position in the society.

Basically, it all depends on the scale of your setting.
Juffo-Wup fills in my fibers and I grow turgid. Violent action ensues.

Morithias
2011-10-27, 10:49 PM
Most of the time I make it a plot point that they're the only ones that can do it.

Alchemy Island campaign: They're the only adventurers that found out that the king was trading with the amazons. The amazons trust them for not revealing the secret about the 'ghost island'

Cliche campaign: Satan (yes the tenth archdevil) is a master of curses and truespeak, and as children they were speciality bread to take down him when he was released as forseen by a seer by having part of their true names deleted. Making them immune to his game breaking magic.

Beta Campaign: Took place in a giant city the size of the UK. Even though they're not the only adventurers in the city, no one in the city can solve every problem at every point.

Wailing death: Group of divine cursaders who were sent by the gods themselves to help stop a plague that is in the process of wiping out an entire continent.

Book of swords: they were the highest level people in the Hamlet when the sword of fury was destroyed so naturally they were chosen.

Yora
2011-10-28, 04:48 AM
In my campaigns, there are neither high level NPCs, nor anything that the world would have to be saved from.

And if there are powerful people and big things that need to be taken care off, the people in charge send those who are the most capable to deal with it. The PCs.

DoctorGlock
2011-10-28, 01:38 PM
They try to save the world, but the PCs usually end up winning

When my PCs aren't trying to become evil godlings, they are often not on one world but messing around on more poorly defined realities where there are threats that are generally challenging. Saving the world was so level 10.

Maybe the powerful NPCs are not strong enoughto stop the BBEG, but the high level PCs are. In a world where high level NPCs exist, any BBEG with a world threatening plan is never dumb enough to stand in a small farming village and scream "the cosmic keystone is mine, i will be like unto a god!" because then the competent NPCs will teleport in and fry them. So the BBEG is hidden until the PCs are the powerful figures in the world. If the PCs are level 1 kobold slayers and have to watch Mr McUberwizard warp in and nuke the BBEG you might as well be playing Forgotten Realms

Templarkommando
2011-10-30, 01:13 AM
The way my DM deals with it is that the high level NPCs perceive a more dangerous threat. "Yeah sure, the BBEG is searching for an extremely powerful item, but we've been looking for it for years and haven't found it. We're not sure it exists, and besides his armies are threatening our cities at the moment so we need to concentrate on protecting our populous."

Calmar
2011-10-30, 04:27 AM
The game is about the player characters, not the NPCs. But powerful NPCs are a part of the world. So,

why can't Yoda or Obi Wan defeat the empire? Because Luke is the hero.
why can't the wizards, Gondor, or the elves defeat Sauron? Because the hobbits are the heroes.
why can't Starfleet use a whole flotilla of ships to defeat yet another threat to the Federation? Because the crew of the Enterprise are the heroes.

Powerful NPCs or organisations are part of the world, but the DM should avoid to portray them as if their only occupation was to hang around in their base and give quests to low-level player characters. Of course these NPCs do something and try to defeat the evil that threatens them all, but it is the PCs, the heroes who are in the right place at the right time, who make the crucial decissions and ultimately triumph over the villains.


Besides, levels are a game mechanic, not the reality of the world from an in-game perspective. One who thinks that levels prevent the verisimilitude of a game possibly should either have all PCs and NPCs remain permanently at one specific level over the course of the campaign, or use a different system. :smallconfused:

gkathellar
2011-10-30, 04:38 AM
why can't Yoda or Obi Wan defeat the empire? Because Luke is the hero.
why can't the wizards, Gondor, or the elves defeat Sauron? Because the hobbits are the heroes.
why can't Starfleet use a whole flotilla of ships to defeat yet another threat to the Federation? Because the crew of the Enterprise are the heroes.

Yeah, but while "don't think about it too hard" is an acceptable explanation at times, it is never a good explanation.


Besides, levels are a game mechanic, not the reality of the world from an in-game perspective. One who thinks that levels prevent the verisimilitude of a game possibly should either have all PCs and NPCs remain permanently at one specific level over the course of the campaign, or use a different system. :smallconfused:

Ostensibly, though, mechanics should work to reflect and describe the world they are used to play in — not function as something separate from them. So a powerful wizard is a high-level wizard, and a high-level wizard can sort out your villain so effortlessly that "Why doesn't he help us?" becomes an almost theological question in nature.

In D&D, high-level spellcasters approach "infinite cosmic power" minus the itty-bitty living space. You can ignore that for purposes of the story, but it doesn't explain what's going on when PCs finally approach similarly extraordinary levels of power.

mint
2011-10-30, 05:24 AM
This is one of my favorite problems.
It was very interesting to read other thoughts on it.
Kieza's post on the first page was especially good. That's the first time I've seen that take on the problem. And I will steal it.

My own favorite take on the problem is this:
The scale expands as the PCs climb atop the food chain in their limited view.
You usurp the baron at level 5, you are a hot ****. Now you have to rule the barony and while you are, indeed, hot **** in your barony, the scope of the world just expanded to include the neighbouring regions and you are small fry again.
There's turtle all the way down.

I also like randomness and mystery with this type of thing.
Once in a long while, it generates a level 17 cleric in an unexpected but neat place or a glorious water beast in the river running through your little fiefdom.
I think that in a game like D&D, the stats sometimes limit our thinking in critical ways. Characters are very martial, very adventurer.
The level 17 cleric did actually happen in a game I played once. She was a blind saint figure serving the goddess of (wholesome) love.
Now in 3.5 this character must, by the rules, be a combat powerhouse. Due to BAB and spell access, this is simply how it is.
I think until you start to take liberties with that kind of thing, you are really limited NPCwise.

Calmar
2011-10-30, 09:16 AM
Yeah, but while "don't think about it too hard" is an acceptable explanation at times, it is never a good explanation.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Let's say a series of events causes you to end up in the right place at the right time to save a bunch of people from a fire and to prevent further damage. That's your heroic story then - nobody reading the news is going to complain "Wait, that's stupid! That's been some random dude! Why didn't the lame firefighters get everybody out in time with their high level of skill and their expensive gear and their fire engines and helicopters?!"
The world isn't optimised...


Ostensibly, though, mechanics should work to reflect and describe the world they are used to play in — not function as something separate from them. So a powerful wizard is a high-level wizard, and a high-level wizard can sort out your villain so effortlessly that "Why doesn't he help us?" becomes an almost theological question in nature.

In D&D, high-level spellcasters approach "infinite cosmic power" minus the itty-bitty living space. You can ignore that for purposes of the story, but it doesn't explain what's going on when PCs finally approach similarly extraordinary levels of power.
A DM apparently should be careful not to introduce overly powerful NPCs that make his plots ridiculous. If the players fail to respect the authority or position of NPCs by virtue of their superior ability to kill, the group should consider whether a real ruler of a state, or an organisation indeed occupies her position because she is the best killer. If it has to be a super powerful wizard, DM has got to come up with a good reason for the heroes to be around at the critical moment...

ghost_warlock
2011-10-30, 10:14 AM
The terrible, unspeakable, horrific things the PCs are facing, the ones about to cause the end of the world, are actually too low-level to be worth XP to the high-level NPCs. Fighting them simply isn't worth the effort.

Trog
2011-10-30, 01:21 PM
As a DM how do you deal with the existence of high-level NPCs in your games? Especially when whatever the PCs are dealing with would be of interest to said NPC?
High level NPCs rise to the top of their respective field in my worlds. The become the movers and shakers of a nation or community. The high level fighter might become a warlord in an area of other warlords or they might become a general to nobility who run the country. Just because someone is high level doesn't mean they know everything or can tackle every problem. They delegate if need be.

As a DM I make sure the PCs are either working for someone like this or (more often) in a position where they are the only ones who know of the important something. Generally my players don't go running to the authorities when they spot a problem unless it is to warn them, Gandalf-style, while they head off to do important and urgent things elsewhere. Others who are in the know are typically in positions of power but of either lower level or of slightly higher level already working on an aspect of said problem.

For example the players discover a network of caverns and investigate rumors of bandits only to discover an army amassing for a surface invasion. Unable to defeat an entire army single-handedly they quickly tell the king of the pending invasion. The king rallies troops while the PCs head back to the front to forestall the invasion and gather intelligence on the enemy. When the enemy invades they join a section of troops in the process of holding the line against the other army. As the high level NPCs gather intel and direct the king's forces in this region they may spot an opportunity to damage the enemy severely. That's when they call for the PCs.

PCs can ascertain all this info on their own, of course, and not warn the king but do their best to hit the army where it hurts and the adventure will play out that the king's forces are losing worse than they would have if they had been informed instead.

High level people, in my worlds, are *already* doing their most to take care of problems as they arise. But they cannot do *everything.*

Long story short, I have them act accordingly but with limited resources. This creates the opening for the PCs to help and be the heroes that add that extra effort to save the day.

Keinnicht
2011-10-30, 02:29 PM
A few solutions I've used:

-Disinterested in saving the world, or doing much of anything. I used this one with an extremely bitter Wizard. He wasn't evil, he was just kind of a nihilistic jerk.

-Diplomacy ties their hands. A lot of high-level characters are the rulers of nations, high priests of worldwide religions, and that sort of thing. When you rule a nation and the leader of some other nation is plotting something, it's generally a lot more advisable to send in a strike team than it is to charge in yourself, given that charging in yourself pretty much guarantees all out war between your two nations.

-Unable. While extremely powerful, they are nonetheless to old or sick ("sick" in this case means some kind of extreme curse. Obviously it'd be a bit implausible that a high-level person couldn't afford a potion of remove disease) to do what is necessary. This actually isn't that unlikely. A venerable fighter might still be pretty handy with a sword, but that doesn't mean he still has the energy needed to actually go storm a bad guy's base.

-Insane. This one obviously works better for high-level magic users. The powerful NPC has fallen from his glory, and is now simply too crazy to accomplish much of anything.

-Lazy. This one is best used sparingly, but it can really help characterize someone. Basically, the person out and out says saving the world is too much work.

Ajadea
2011-10-30, 02:51 PM
1: "No one told me the world was ending! Tell me, where is this Lord Evilguy's army headed, and why. Quickly."

Especially for more mundane high-level characters and/or really secretive BBEGs, they just might not know that the world's ending in a week. If you told them, they'd help.

2: "Uh huh. Good one kid, but no. I know you're lying. Now beat it."

Ever thought that people might claim stuff like that to send the adventurers on a wild goose chase? After a few instances of that, the high-level character would be really hard-pressed to actually believe the world was going to end.

3: "Cool story. 'cept none of this actually affects my life. At all. So, I really don't give a damn."

This is actually pretty much the perspective of one of my former characters. Is this interesting? Is it a threat to me? Is it something I would want to help with? Chances are low that it is any of these things to her, so she just doesn't care. Works best with neutral-aligned people.

4: "I have duties here. While I can attempt to mobilize the populace against this threat, I cannot simply abandon this place."

High-level NPCs have an annoying tendency to find themelves knee-deep in red tape and duty. Their presence keeps the area safe and orderly, and they can't exactly leave without all hell breaking loose on their front doorstep within the month.

5: "Look, I'm working on a ritual to close the portal right now. Researching completely new spells takes time. That's why I hired you guys. You need to buy me time and do damage control. Now get out, I'm not paying you to blabber at me."

A high-level NPC may be helping in a more indirect way. Researching, fundraising, strategizing, misdirecting. They need PCs to help them, because they can't be in two places at once.

Rapidghoul
2011-10-30, 04:22 PM
I like to keep the big NPCs busy with more mundane things to create a feeling that they are relatively unimportant despite being so powerful. I also have them send their peons to do things with the party instead, letting the group get lesser versions of the powerful guys (level 30 mage sends her level 8 student with them).

For example, I have two high level NPC contacts that my party interacts with on a regular basis.

One is an epic level wizard / cleric / thaumaturg. She's the head healer for the entire colony, which keeps her busy. She also heads the conjuration school of the magic university by herself. When she's too busy to take care of things herself, she sends the party to do things for her (if she is the one sending the party out, obviously she isn't going to go along with). She occasionally provides them scrolls / portals if they need to go somewhere for other tasks too.
She uses the school / hospital / doing research to find out what the hell is going on so the party can know how to stop it as her excuse. She has sent her apprentice with them at one point, but he was at their level, and they were more helping him than he was helping them.

The other is a level 18 goblin favored soul / healer (homebrew class I made) who leads a goblin tribe in the woods. The whole tribe is pretty peace loving with no strong alignment (so no strong motivations which the party could manipulate), and the leader himself is a holy prophet. In building him, I gave him Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace from BoED to keep him from fighting. He is now at the colony discussing treaties / alliances between his tribe and the city.
Before a big fight, he cast some protection spells on them, but he wouldn't go with them to fight. The chieftain's son, a 8th level CN Ranger, goes with the party on tasks important to the tribe to keep tabs on them and help them out.

Frozen_Feet
2011-10-30, 04:49 PM
What's this "world saving" you talk about. :smalltongue: Honestly, I've never run a single campaign or adventure where that was even remotely the goal for my players.

If anything, in my current campaign, I might have to start thinking how my high-level NPCs are going to save the world from my players.

Usually, they go about doing their own things, like ruling the land the PCs trod upon.

ILM
2011-10-31, 04:33 AM
Maybe I wasn't clear. Let's say a series of events causes you to end up in the right place at the right time to save a bunch of people from a fire and to prevent further damage. That's your heroic story then - nobody reading the news is going to complain "Wait, that's stupid! That's been some random dude! Why didn't the lame firefighters get everybody out in time with their high level of skill and their expensive gear and their fire engines and helicopters?!"
They would if firefighters could teleport anywhere with one 6-second incantation.

Calmar
2011-10-31, 11:42 AM
They would if firefighters could teleport anywhere with one 6-second incantation.

Actually, I already commented on that notion in the second half of my previous post...

Tyndmyr
2011-10-31, 11:44 AM
They would if firefighters could teleport anywhere with one 6-second incantation.

I want to live in this world, sir. =)

gkathellar
2011-10-31, 12:04 PM
Actually, I already commented on that notion in the second half of my previous post...

Yes, and your solution was, "Including characters of this type is poor setting design." In many cases, you're right. But not always, and it certainly doesn't provide any answers for people already stuck in that particular corner.


I want to live in this world, sir. =)

I believe it's called the Tippyverse.

ILM
2011-10-31, 12:22 PM
Actually, I already commented on that notion in the second half of my previous post...
Well yes and no. The concept of "at the right time in the right place" takes on a very different meaning where divinations, instant communication and teleportation combine to allow any level 11+ caster to be anywhere at any time. Of course, this doesn't mean they can be everywhere at the same time, but that just brings us back to the earlier talks of how they're likely to have more pressing things to do.

Unless the NPCs cap around level 10, you as a DM do need to think of why the others don't join the fight. Depending on the plot, it's perfectly acceptable for them to think it's beneath them - but if we're talking end-of-days stuff, then you really do need a compelling reason why your PCs would be the ones to save it when everything they do, a higher-leveled NPC can do better. I mean, even if they somehow stumble on the Magical Artifact of World-Saving, why not just hand it over to Mr. Level 15 Guy and his team and let them handle it?

It's the old LotR trope. If it's all about saving all of Middle Earth and everything, why didn't they grab the ring, ask Gandalf to call in a favour from his giant eagle buddies (or rather, ask Gandalf to ask Radagast to do so - surely for all their dispassionate outlook on the affairs of men, the Eagles would be a little bit concerned by the ultimate victory of Evil) and just fly over there? Time? I don't think it would have taken longer than hiking there. Visibility? For crying out loud, the hobbits spent half their time traveling with a fricking Maiar and two sons of Kings. Ya ya, the hobbits are the heroes, but for all the awesomeness of Tolkien's work it doesn't really make sense, and you want to avoid that in your games.

Calmar
2011-10-31, 12:26 PM
Yes, and your solution was, "Including characters of this type is poor setting design." In many cases, you're right. But not always, and it certainly doesn't provide any answers for people already stuck in that particular corner.

As I said, in that case you have to develop a situation warants the PCs to be in a crucial position. So, if you made the mistake to include is such an overly powerful wizard who apparently could effortlessly save the day, there must be a reason why he is unable to do so. Of course that's not the smoothest sollution, but clumsy DM had to describe him as nearly all-powerful in the first place, hadn't he?

So, expanding my first argument from post #57:

Yoda or Obi Wan might be a match for Darth Vader in terms of power, but their heydays are over, and ultimately luke has a trump card that's more useful than higher skill in the use of the force.
Gandalf, or the men of Gondor, or the elves might be the greatest spellcasters or warriors, but they can't overcome Sauron in terms of power, nor resist the lure of his circular MacGuffin, but the weak and unskilled hobbits are the ones who play the crucial role. The powerful defenders of good can merely serve as decoys.

My personal take on powerful wizards is that there are only few and far between and are mostly interested in the development of their own arcane skills instead of puny power struggles. He who can create a palace and servants and defend himself with a few worde and waves of his hand does not need to conquer kingdoms or take slaves, nor does he hang around with low-level adventurers just for the sake of it.

hydroplatypus
2011-11-01, 04:18 PM
In the world I am building, I am making the NPCs have a max level of 15, with mabye 5 people above 13. Although still powerful, they don't have access to everything, and are thus less powerful. Still could save the day though.

The way I plan on dealing with this in the next campaign I run deals with the "nation" the PCs are in. It is a loose collection of frequently warring city states. These states are exert only loose control on the areas not immediately surrounding their cities. The PCs will be on a border region between two hostile city states. As such the powerful people of cityA - who technically control the region - can't risk sending in the army as that would trigger a war, and can't risk going themselves, as the risk of assassination is great, and it also might trigger a war.

The high level people end up in the cities, and as such the PCs are among the highest level people in the immediate area (at level 4 [ low level area]) they are left to deal with the problem.

John Campbell
2011-11-02, 01:33 AM
It helps especially if the world itself is in no danger since that can cause the villains to help the heroes in many cases, requiring you to bring in some sort of crazy super-powerful cult to keep them from saving the world without the PCs.

I once used this effect to short-circuit about a month of a DM's planned plotline, by pointing out that the epic-level evil lich didn't want the world destroyed any more than we did (It's where he keeps his stuff!), and so instead of risking our necks busting into his place to steal the Macguffin we needed to save the world, we should just explain the situation to him and ask him nicely if we could borrow it, in exchange for him not having to get off his coccyx and deal with the situation himself.

Alleran
2011-11-02, 01:53 AM
I once used this effect to short-circuit about a month of a DM's planned plotline, by pointing out that the epic-level evil lich didn't want the world destroyed any more than we did (It's where he keeps his stuff!), and so instead of risking our necks busting into his place to steal the Macguffin we needed to save the world, we should just explain the situation to him and ask him nicely if we could borrow it, in exchange for him not having to get off his coccyx and deal with the situation himself.
I am absolutely going to steal this.

Thyrian
2011-11-02, 07:52 AM
The one I've just used was the NPC in question casually explaining how it's easier for a small fish to catch its prey in a pond without causing too many ripples than it is for a fish 10 times the size of the smaller one to do the same task.

That's not to say a large fish couldn't catch the prey in the pond, it's just the potential collateral of doing so is not worth it.