Any good Paladin of Tyrrany PrCs?

[Howler Dagger]

Are theree any good PrCs for a Paladin of Tyrrany, of the variety that are Sea Wolves that worshhip Darangor? For the purposes of this, He will be level 9 in PoT (assuming no PrC) + the RHD for Seawolves.

[Icestorm245]

It honestly depends on what you're looking for; do you want something purely martial based, or martial with a sprinking of divine? You could do Blackguard for Dark Blessing, which adds your charisma modifier to saves, since PoT doesn't get Divine Grace... only if you want to be a charisma based paladin, though. If you take Blackguard, you can ask your DM to get rid of the deity requirement for Ordained Champion. It gives you a smite attack at 2nd level that isn't alignment or race specific. It's based on your charisma and your total turning/rebuking level, so you might want to stick with these three classes if you go this route. Another cool class is Pious Templar. At first level it gives you Mettle, which is evasion for fortiude and will saves.

[Gotterdammerung]

It honestly depends on what you're looking for; do you want something purely martial based, or martial with a sprinking of divine? You could do Blackguard for Dark Blessing, which adds your charisma modifier to saves, since PoT doesn't get Divine Grace... only if you want to be a charisma based paladin, though. If you take Blackguard, you can ask your DM to get rid of the deity requirement for Ordained Champion. It gives you a smite attack at 2nd level that isn't alignment or race specific. It's based on your charisma and your total turning/rebuking level, so you might want to stick with these three classes if you go this route. Another cool class is Pious Templar. At first level it gives you Mettle, which is evasion for fortiude and will saves.

PoT does get divine grace. Look at table 2-1 on page 54 of the unearthed arcana.

[The Glyphstone]

Making 2 levels of Blackguard a sweet deal for a PoT, because Dark Blessing stacks with Divine Grace, both untyped bonuses of different names.

[Little Brother]

Ur-Priest. Seriously. OR weasel your way into Sublime Chord somehow.

Or blackguard, you do get the nice 2 Cha to saves.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ur-Priest. Seriously. OR weasel your way into Sublime Chord somehow.

Or blackguard, you do get the nice 2 Cha to saves.

Ur-Priest can't be able to cast divine spells prior to taking the prestige class.

[skycycle blues]

Ur-Priest can't be able to cast divine spells prior to taking the prestige class.

If you have divine casting, you lost it forver when you become an Ur-Priest.

[MesiDoomstalker]

If you have divine casting, you lost it forver when you become an Ur-Priest.

From Complete Divine, Ur-Priest entry:


Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken.
The character must be trained by another Ur-Priest.

The ability to cast divine spells must be lost prior to taking the class and then lost forever after taking the class.

[Icestorm245]

PoT does get divine grace. Look at table 2-1 on page 54 of the unearthed arcana.

Ah, my bad, I don't own unearthed arcana, so I was using the d20 srd available online. But PoT/Blackguard/Ordained Champion looks even sexier now!

[Maho-Tsukai]

While cleric may be a better entry for it, if you like Necromancy you may want to look at Bone Knight. That class can make a mean tank with some nice necromantic powers to boot, though as a Paladin it will take you longer to enter I think.

[Little Brother]

Dude, turn neutral, lose your powers, turn back and buy an atonement. You lose your casting for one level. And you really don't have much to start with, anyways.

[NeoSeraphi]

@title: No, but I'm sure there are plenty of chaotic evil Paladin of Tyranny PrCs :smalltongue:


Dude, turn neutral, lose your powers, turn back and buy an atonement. You lose your casting for one level. And you really don't have much to start with, anyways

According to the rules about PrCs in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, if you ever stop qualifying for a PrC, you lose all class features of that PrC. If you are able to cast divine spells as an Ur-Priest, you lose all your Ur-Priest class features.

As for a Paladin of Tyranny PrC, the cavalier from Complete Warrior is a fantastic class (I can't remember if it has a Lawful alignment requirement or not, but if not, you get plenty of damage while riding your mount) (assuming Sea Wolves can ride mounts, I've never heard of that race before)

[umbergod]

According to the rules about PrCs in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, if you ever stop qualifying for a PrC, you lose all class features of that PrC. If you are able to cast divine spells as an Ur-Priest, you lose all your Ur-Priest class features.

as soon as you take ur priest levels you would lose permanent access to the casting abilities you had as a PoT, so you wouldnt lose any ur-priest abilities by atoning and regaining your other PoT abilities

[MesiDoomstalker]

In order to gain Ur-Priest levels as any kind of Paladin, you have to fall and not atone first. Once you take the level of Ur-Priest, you can never, ever, ever, ever, ever (ad infentum) gain your paladin casting back (and depending on the DM you can't even atone to bring back your other Paladin features.)

[umbergod]

dont even see why he would have to violate his code of conduct. couldnt you just forsake your casting ability as a paladin and keep your other abilities?

[MesiDoomstalker]

dont even see why he would have to violate his code of conduct. couldnt you just forsake your casting ability as a paladin and keep your other abilities?

Unless your DM okays letting you take the ACF that trades away your casting for the variant Paladins, no. Regular, LG Paladins have an ACF that forgoes its spellcasting (I forget what they get in return). Since the variant Paladins are already variants, its sketchy at best that they can take Paladin Alternative Class Features.

EDIT: Another alternative, is to stop taking paladin levels prior to actually gaining spellcasting (thus you don't have to loose it) and, by RAW, Paladin levels count as spellcasting levels for Ur-Priest and thus will boost your Ur-Priest CL.

[skycycle blues]

Unless your DM okays letting you take the ACF that trades away your casting for the variant Paladins, no. Regular, LG Paladins have an ACF that forgoes its spellcasting (I forget what they get in return). Since the variant Paladins are already variants, its sketchy at best that they can take Paladin Alternative Class Features.

The only Paladin AFC that I'm aware of that makes you lose casting is in Complete Warrior and even that still implies a divine connection that would be inappropriate for Ur-Priest.

[Gotterdammerung]

Unless your DM okays letting you take the ACF that trades away your casting for the variant Paladins, no. Regular, LG Paladins have an ACF that forgoes its spellcasting (I forget what they get in return). Since the variant Paladins are already variants, its sketchy at best that they can take Paladin Alternative Class Features.

Variant rules are just variations and as long as they aren't in direct conflict with each other you can combine them.

ACF's can be combined as long as they don't ask for the same sacrifices.

Bottom line:
A paladin of tyranny is a paladin. So as a paladin he can take watever pld ACF he wants to. So yes a pld of tyrany could take the ACF from complete warrior and lose spellcasting, and then go into ur priest from there.

[skycycle blues]

Another alternative, is to stop taking paladin levels prior to actually gaining spellcasting (thus you don't have to loose it) and, by RAW, Paladin levels count as spellcasting levels for Ur-Priest and thus will boost your Ur-Priest CL.

Also, this.
How many racial Hit Dice do Seawolves have? You might be able to qualify for Ur-Priest by level 3 PoT, which gets you all the cool stuff except Rebuke, but you pick that up from Ur-Priest anyway.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Interesting RAW flaw I just noticed, if you opt for No Spellcasting Paladin, you can still use spell-completion items up until the level you take the level where you take the ACF. Just thought I'd share.

[kardar233]

There's also the Holy Warrior ACF, which gives you a bonus Fighter or Divine feat whenever you would get another level of spells.

[The Glyphstone]

Alt Paladins may be able to take ACFs, but I can't imagine any DM allowing the argument than an ACF like Holy Warrior counts as 'losing spellcasting'. ACFs are modifications to the base class chassis...if you trade your spells away for Holy Warrior as an out-of-game decision, you didn't lose magic, you never had it in the first place.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Alt Paladins may be able to take ACFs, but I can't imagine any DM allowing the argument than an ACF like Holy Warrior counts as 'losing spellcasting'. ACFs are modifications to the base class chassis...if you trade your spells away for Holy Warrior as an out-of-game decision, you didn't lose magic, you never had it in the first place.

RAI, yes. Any sensible DM would do that. RAW, no. You don't gain the benefits or drawbacks of an ACF till you take it. By RAW, paladins can use scrolls and wands and other caster-or-umd-only stuff before they can actually cast anything.

[Howler Dagger]

Ur-priests despise gods


Paladin of Tyrrany, of the variety that are Sea Wolves that worshhip Darangor?
Worships Darangor=/=Ur-Priest

Also, woud a PoT get the extra-benefits from blackguard for having paladin levels?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Worships Darangor=/=Ur-Priest

Also, woud a PoT get the extra-benefits from blackguard for having paladin levels?

Not unless he falls. IIRC, the Blackgaurd entry specifically calls out an Ex-Paladin.

[The Glyphstone]

RAI, yes. Any sensible DM would do that. RAW, no. You don't gain the benefits or drawbacks of an ACF till you take it. By RAW, paladins can use scrolls and wands and other caster-or-umd-only stuff before they can actually cast anything.

Well yeah, sure. That's a given. The point being argued though was that a Paladin could take Holy Warrior to meet the 'has lost their ability to cast Divine spells' qualifier of Ur-Priest. I was disputing that on the point that taking Holy Warrior means you never gained the ability to cast spells in the first place, so you never lost it and thus don't qualify for the class. The ability to use scrolls and wands isn't necessarily relevant.

[candycorn]

Well yeah, sure. That's a given. The point being argued though was that a Paladin could take Holy Warrior to meet the 'has lost their ability to cast Divine spells' qualifier of Ur-Priest. I was disputing that on the point that taking Holy Warrior means you never gained the ability to cast spells in the first place, so you never lost it and thus don't qualify for the class. The ability to use scrolls and wands isn't necessarily relevant.

Not correct.


The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken.
The character must be trained by another Ur-Priest.
As you have pointed out, you have no ability to cast divine spells.
If it was previously possessed (you pointed out that it wasn't), THEN you must forsake it.

But that wasn't previously possessed, which makes everything after "If" a bunch of blahblahblah.

[Psyren]

If a PoT falls, isn't he technically rising?

Anyway, for a less thorny route to than Ur-Priest, try Divine Crusader. Cha-focused so you get maximum mileage out of your Divine Grace, and fast-tracks you to 9ths just like U-P does. The class features are pretty bad though, so you may want to PrC into something.

[The Glyphstone]

Not correct.


As you have pointed out, you have no ability to cast divine spells.
If it was previously possessed (you pointed out that it wasn't), THEN you must forsake it.

But that wasn't previously possessed, which makes everything after "If" a bunch of blahblahblah.

That'd work then. I hadn't checked the Ur-Priest wording, and thought it required actively forsaking the ability to cast.