A Swift Duskblade

[DoughGuy]

Now Duskblade does not have haste on its spell list however it seems like a great class to PrC into swiftblade. You're not a full caster so the CL loss hurts less and you're more melee orientated to begin with which helps.

So in your opinion would a duskblade make a good swiftblade if it had haste?
If yes could you get haste on your spell list somehow?
if no why not?

[Yorae]

Now Duskblade does not have haste on its spell list however it seems like a great class to PrC into swiftblade. You're not a full caster so the CL loss hurts less and you're more melee orientated to begin with which helps.

So in your opinion would a duskblade make a good swiftblade if it had haste?
If yes could you get haste on your spell list somehow?
if no why not?

Yes, and yes.
Extra Spell feat from Complete Mage (just had a discussion about this very thing in another thread).

[Anderlith]

There is a feat to give you a spell from another class. & yeah, Duskblade would make a good/decent swiftblade

[Hirax]

I'll agree with the above, but my thought is more that swiftblade doesn't really synergize with much, per se, because its features are all independently good for any character. How can you not like extra movement, free swift haste that's undispellable and works in an AMF, and (ex) 50% miss chance for anything that isn't an area attack? For anyone that can afford the feat tax and lost CL it's a solid pick.

[MeeposFire]

Yea at high levels you could use the rapid blitz feat and get 3 attacks plus get your Skirmish+ (it is actually better than skirmish) damage and use your extra action to do a standard action channel +swift action spell+arcane strike+power attack. If you use a slashing weapon or unarmed strikes you can add even more attacks and you would be highly mobile (and unlike most monks quite damaging).

Also there are PRCs that can put any spell on to your list such as the dragon wizard one in dragon magic (might be other better options if you assume you follow the FAQ about the extra spell feat which means you can't get haste via that route).

[Treblain]

Anything that can cast Haste is good as a Swiftblade. And if you feel Extra Spell DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOODNIGHT!, you could theoretically take Arcane Disciple (Time) letting you cast Haste.

[KoboldCleric]

Regardless Treblain, it's in poor taste to suggest something as fact when there is such vigorous debate about the validity of the suggestion. I advise that you read it for yourself and ask your DM about the Extra Spell feat before basing your entire character build around it.

The only problem with using Duskblade to enter Swiftblade is the loss of the capstone. It's still fun to play, but just make sure you're alright with that beforehand.

[Sith_Happens]

Regardless Treblain, it's in poor taste to suggest something as fact when there is such vigorous debate about the validity of the suggestion. I advise that you read it for yourself and ask your DM about the Extra Spell feat before basing your entire character build around it.

The only problem with using Duskblade to enter Swiftblade is the loss of the capstone. It's still fun to play, but just make sure you're alright with that beforehand.


Anything that can cast Haste is good as a Swiftblade. And if you feel Extra Spell DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOODNIGHT!, you could theoretically take Arcane Disciple (Time) letting you cast Haste.

Bolded the part you misread. Treblain wasn't saying himself that Extra Spell doesn't work that way, he was saying that some people think that.

[Seharvepernfan]

you could theoretically take Arcane Disciple (Time) letting you cast Haste.

I was going to suggest this.

Is this "extra spell" feat the one that sorcerers can take to get an extra spell known? Because if so, I don't see how it would allow you to take a spell from a different spell list.

[Andre]

Regarding Extra Spell and Duskblade, we can certainly agree on two points.

1) Extra Spell is a poorly worded feat.
2) Duskblades cannot attain Haste with Extra Spell prior to level 15, as they get 4th level spells only at level 13.
(...and let's leave metamagic stretches out. :smalltongue:)

If at level 15 you are still interested, my interpretation is that you can certainly pick up Haste. Read the feat on Complete Arcane, especially the part where it says that classes like wizards generally use it to learn a spell that the character has no access to and cannot research (read - learn) otherwise.

Otherwise, put some points in WIS, pick the appropriate deity and go all the way for Arcane Disciple!

[BlackestOfMages]

I was going to suggest this.

Is this "extra spell" feat the one that sorcerers can take to get an extra spell known? Because if so, I don't see how it would allow you to take a spell from a different spell list.

it is exceedingly vague in it's wording and dosen't say it has to be a spell you normally have access to :smallannoyed:

though I'd throw in a vote for arcane desciple anyway, jut because I like the time domain

[Arcane_Snowman]

Regarding Extra Spell and Duskblade, we can certainly agree on two points.

1) Extra Spell is a poorly worded feat.
2) Duskblades cannot attain Haste with Extra Spell prior to level 15, as they get 4th level spells only at level 13.
(...and let's leave metamagic stretches out. :smalltongue:) Haste is a 3rd level spell, unless you take it from the Trapsmith's spell list, in which case it's a 1st level spell.

[Thurbane]

it is exceedingly vague in it's wording and dosen't say it has to be a spell you normally have access to :smallannoyed:
The "official" FAQ specifies that Extra Spell cannot allow you to take spells that are not normally on your spell list, FWIW. Many take the FAQ with a grain of salt...

[Andre]

Haste is a 3rd level spell, unless you take it from the Trapsmith's spell list, in which case it's a 1st level spell.

Hence why you must achieve 4-th level spellcasting before being able to learn it. (Or 2-nd as a Trapsmith in your example, I guess)

[BlackestOfMages]

Haste is a 3rd level spell, unless you take it from the Trapsmith's spell list, in which case it's a 1st level spell.

and that's why I hate the abuse of the feat :smallannoyed: oh look, we can get haste as a 1st level spell even though we don't have it normally

though that still precludes you from swiftblade since you need to use all your 3rd level spell slots to cast haste from for a level, not 1st.

DM's can be just as anal with their interpriatations as you can :smalltongue:

[DoughGuy]

So it looks like the best method is picking a deity with the time domain, matching thei alignment then taking Arcane Disciple (time) at level 3. The only problem with this is it requires a wisdom of 13 which doesnt synergize well at all. Possibly with items it makes it hurt less as you could use a 11 or maybe a 9 sice you still cant enter before level 9.

losing the capstone ability doesnt matter. It requires a level 6 spell slot to use and a duskblade only gets level 5 spells. You'd go Duskblade 11/Swiftblade 9 which gives you 5th level spells and all the swiftblade abilities you can use.

[DoughGuy]

So at the moment the best build (Havent bought anything yet) I've come up with looks like this.

Human Duskblade 11/Swiftblade 9
32 point buy
Strength 16 (14)
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 18 (16)
Wisdom 13 (12)
Charisma 8

(God with Time Domain)
(Alignment matching God's)

Feats –
Expeditious Dodge (Bonus human)
Mobility (Level 1)
Arcane Disciple (Time) (Level 3)
Spring Attack (Level 6)
Arcane Strike (Level 9)
Bounding Assault (Bonus instead of spring attack)
Level 12
Level 15
(Bonus feat instead of bounding assault)
Rapid Blitz (Level 18)

Skills
Concentration 23
Spellcraft 23
Sense Motive 11 +4 (cc)
Knowledge Arcana 23
Knowledge Religion 11
Tumble 23
Jump 5

Still need 3 feats and the right deity.

[Morph Bark]

and that's why I hate the abuse of the feat :smallannoyed: oh look, we can get haste as a 1st level spell even though we don't have it normally

though that still precludes you from swiftblade since you need to use all your 3rd level spell slots to cast haste from for a level, not 1st.

DM's can be just as anal with their interpriatations as you can :smalltongue:

Which is why I told a player Trapsmith would require metamagic to get into Swiftblade. :smallwink:

[Hirax]

Which is why I told a player Trapsmith would require metamagic to get into Swiftblade. :smallwink:

Lame, given the author's take (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871410/The_Swiftblade_Handbook&post_num=2#338398926).

[Morph Bark]

Lame, given the author's take (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871410/The_Swiftblade_Handbook&post_num=2#338398926).

Got a link to the actual original post? I'm rather skeptical since not that many writers use the forums.

[Hirax]

Google failed me, though I did see it when it was originally posted shortly after the release of Dungeonscape. It's entirely possible all of WotC's forum migrations and upheavals have eaten the original post, unfortunately, if it isn't showing up in Google it's likely that's what has occurred.

[Darth_Versity]

Using the Bloodline feats from the Dragon Annual as a base make a new one that works off of a fast creature (cant think of one off the top of my head). It is a little homebrew but the section on bloodline feats does suggest making new ones with your DM.

[Coidzor]

Which is why I told a player Trapsmith would require metamagic to get into Swiftblade. :smallwink:

Huh. Guess I'll have to take a second look at it then.

I'd thought that the stuff necessary to go into trapsmith precluded getting a proper gish chassis up and that other than haste as a first level spell, the trapsmith's spell list was a rather poor-to-uninspired one.

[Treblain]

Keep in mind, Arcane Disciple only lets you cast it once a day (probably more times with some tricks, maybe Heighten would help?). Once you're qualified, you could dip Trapsmith for one or two more castings or take Arcane Disciple again for Celerity Domain.

RAW, Extra Spell would let you get Haste. Of course, by RAW, Extra Spell doesn't even specify that the new spell has to be arcane; it just says "you learn one additional spell". Therefore, a Duskblade can use it to learn cleric spells, or a cleric can learn Wu Jen spells, or whatever. Is it any wonder why people disagree with the RAW reading?

[JohnDaBarr]

Duskblade is not very good class for multiclassing, but of course he has some nice things you would like to see on class you play and I know that because I tried.

So here is some advice or rules for duskblade multiclassing:
1. never (and I mean NEVER) sacrifice caster level for anything that isn't ground breaking!! (Duskblade with low CL and spells is like a fighter with no feats)
2. 13 lvl's of Duskblade is a must have simply because his ability to channel spells in full attack!! (pretty much the whole class depends on it)
3. prefer using two-hand weapons. (TWF isn't worth before lvl 13)
4. Spells you don't have but need like haste, shield etc... get via wand's and scrolls, you are after all an arcane caster. ( I like using wand chamber in a greatsword, don't know where did I found that but it basically allows you to use a wand in your sword while holding the sword.... so you take wand of true strike or haste....... well it's a pity you can't have a wand with quick cast true strike)

[Chronos]

Just being an arcane caster isn't enough to use wands or scrolls. The spell either needs to be on your list, or you need to make a UMD check (in which case the fact that you're a caster is irrelevant). You can still use eternal wands and runestaves, though.

[Cog]

You can still use eternal wands and runestaves, though.
Runestaves are limited to spells on your class list, just like regular wands and staves, though that fact is hidden away in the MIC. It does make the selection of spells on some of them kind of odd, though...

[Elric VIII]

and that's why I hate the abuse of the feat :smallannoyed: oh look, we can get haste as a 1st level spell even though we don't have it normally

though that still precludes you from swiftblade since you need to use all your 3rd level spell slots to cast haste from for a level, not 1st.

DM's can be just as anal with their interpriatations as you can :smalltongue:

Just to be extra anal, the prerequisites are:


Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Skills: Concentration 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast haste.
Feats: Dodge, Mobility.
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with at least one martial weapon.
Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste.


So that means if you know Haste, then you just have to use all 0 of your 3rd level spell slots to cast it. :smallcool:

[gkathellar]

Human Duskblade 11/Swiftblade 9
-snip-
Wisdom 13 (12)

Your build is illegal, guy. The Time Domain gets Haste as a 4th level spell.

[Elric VIII]

Your build is illegal, guy. The Time Domain gets Haste as a 4th level spell.

Erm... no. The SpC is the most updated instance of the Time domain. It has Haste as 3rd and FoM as 4th.

[JohnDaBarr]

Just being an arcane caster isn't enough to use wands or scrolls. The spell either needs to be on your list, or you need to make a UMD check (in which case the fact that you're a caster is irrelevant). You can still use eternal wands and runestaves, though.


damn I know I forgot something. while true strike is on the duskblade list haste isn't and duskblade doesn't have UMD

[MeeposFire]

Duskblade is not very good class for multiclassing, but of course he has some nice things you would like to see on class you play and I know that because I tried.

So here is some advice or rules for duskblade multiclassing:
1. never (and I mean NEVER) sacrifice caster level for anything that isn't ground breaking!! (Duskblade with low CL and spells is like a fighter with no feats)
2. 13 lvl's of Duskblade is a must have simply because his ability to channel spells in full attack!! (pretty much the whole class depends on it)
3. prefer using two-hand weapons. (TWF isn't worth before lvl 13)
4. Spells you don't have but need like haste, shield etc... get via wand's and scrolls, you are after all an arcane caster. ( I like using wand chamber in a greatsword, don't know where did I found that but it basically allows you to use a wand in your sword while holding the sword.... so you take wand of true strike or haste....... well it's a pity you can't have a wand with quick cast true strike)

The full attack ability is overrated unless you allow the spell to affect a single target multiple times (which is not allowed by the standard reading of the ability) since a duskblade/swiftblade will have easy access to the spring attack line which at the end will only be one attack less but you will have bonus damage and you can still use your standard action channel as an extra bonus at high levels.

[JohnDaBarr]

The full attack ability is overrated unless you allow the spell to affect a single target multiple times (which is not allowed by the standard reading of the ability) since a duskblade/swiftblade will have easy access to the spring attack line which at the end will only be one attack less but you will have bonus damage and you can still use your standard action channel as an extra bonus at high levels.

well last campaign i played the DM allowed the dmg but not the effects

and I had the enchantment on my greatsword that gives you 3/day whirlwind attacks so you can imagine where did that go with vampiric touch

qazilions of temp HP XD

[hex0]

Duskblade 5/Spellthief 1/Trapsmith 1 might work.

[deuxhero]

Anything that can cast Haste is good as a Swiftblade. And if you feel Extra Spell DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOODNIGHT!, you could theoretically take Arcane Disciple (Time) letting you cast Haste.


How about Warlock if they get haste as a lesser (it went least/lesser/greater/dark right)?

[Cog]

How about Warlock if they get haste as a lesser (it went least/lesser/greater/dark right)?
Such a Warlock still doesn't have any third-level spell slots, and so doesn't meet the final prereq for Swiftblade (unless you go with the zero-of-zero slots reading, natch).

That said, Eldritch Glaive doesn't seem to benefit from Haste, so you don't get much benefit from this until Swiftblade 9 when you get an extra standard action. Until then, simply getting spamable Haste as a Warlock is, I think, far more benefit than being able to qualify for Swiftblade.

[deuxhero]

Doesn't Swiftblade give a miss chance?

[Elric VIII]

Doesn't Swiftblade give a miss chance?

Yeah, but so do Invocations. Although It does save you one of your precious few known.

The big thing is that Swiftblade lets you Move + Full Attack Glaive or shoot 2 EB in one turn.

[Morph Bark]

Such a Warlock still doesn't have any third-level spell slots, and so doesn't meet the final prereq for Swiftblade (unless you go with the zero-of-zero slots reading, natch).

That said, Eldritch Glaive doesn't seem to benefit from Haste, so you don't get much benefit from this until Swiftblade 9 when you get an extra standard action. Until then, simply getting spamable Haste as a Warlock is, I think, far more benefit than being able to qualify for Swiftblade.

Hideous Blow gets the benefit though, no?

[Hirax]

Doesn't Swiftblade give a miss chance?

The great thing about swiftblade's miss chance is that it can't be negated by trueseeing. Or anything, really, due to haste being undispellable for swiftblades, and the miss chance class features being (ex). And then (ex) freedom of movement too.

[Sarusta]

and that's why I hate the abuse of the feat :smallannoyed: oh look, we can get haste as a 1st level spell even though we don't have it normally

though that still precludes you from swiftblade since you need to use all your 3rd level spell slots to cast haste from for a level, not 1st.

DM's can be just as anal with their interpriatations as you can :smalltongue:

There is a post somewhere in one of the Swiftblade Handbook (Google it you'll find it) where someone who seemed to be an author of the Swiftblade PRC stated they didn't know Trapmaster had it as a 1st level spell, and would have written the requirement so that it says "all spell slots of the level you learnt Haste".

Either way, would a 13/7 build be better than 11/9? I wanted to make this build but I never got around to it. Instead I am planning on Dusk3/WizX/AbjChampY/Swiftblade9 in a recent build... No idea if its optimal or not.

[SaintRidley]

and that's why I hate the abuse of the feat :smallannoyed: oh look, we can get haste as a 1st level spell even though we don't have it normally

though that still precludes you from swiftblade since you need to use all your 3rd level spell slots to cast haste from for a level, not 1st.

DM's can be just as anal with their interpriatations as you can :smalltongue:

Heighten Spell.

[Devmaar]

and that's why I hate the abuse of the feat :smallannoyed: oh look, we can get haste as a 1st level spell even though we don't have it normally

though that still precludes you from swiftblade since you need to use all your 3rd level spell slots to cast haste from for a level, not 1st.

DM's can be just as anal with their interpriatations as you can :smalltongue:

You can fill 3rd level slots with 1st level spells

[MeeposFire]

Hideous Blow gets the benefit though, no?

Not until epic with the right feat. Pre epic hideous blow is a standard action and not a full attack action so you don't benefit from a haste spell. Now you could use your extra standard action to use HB but if you are going to do that I would use some other shape that is more helpful.

[Galanar]

Either way, would a 13/7 build be better than 11/9? I wanted to make this build but I never got around to it. Instead I am planning on Dusk3/WizX/AbjChampY/Swiftblade9 in a recent build... No idea if its optimal or not.
I did something similar for fun once.

dusk 5 wiz1 Abjchamp 5 swiftblade 9
Duskblade caster level raises up to 12 and spells know as level 12

wiz CL to 19 however spells only as level 5 (4 levels from abjurant champion and CL as BAB too)

using a heavy flail and cast greater mighty wallop for 6d8 damage per attack.


Never had the time to consider if the last three Caster level increases should be for wiz or dusk

[DoughGuy]

So playgrounders, what do you think of the build I've got?

Human Duskblade 11/Swiftblade 9
32 point buy
Strength 16 (14)
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 18 (16)
Wisdom 13 (12)
Charisma 8

(God with Time Domain)
(Alignment matching God's)

Feats –
Expeditious Dodge (Bonus human)
Mobility (Level 1)
Arcane Disciple (Time) (Level 3)
Spring Attack (Level 6)
Arcane Strike (Level 9)
Bounding Assault (Bonus instead of spring attack)
Level 12
Level 15
(Bonus feat instead of bounding assault)
Rapid Blitz (Level 18)

Skills
Concentration 23
Spellcraft 23
Sense Motive 11 +4 (cc)
Knowledge Arcana 23
Knowledge Religion 11
Tumble 23
Jump 5

Still need 3 feats and the right deity.


Havent bought anything yet. Also what should I take as the three remaining feats?

[Sarusta]

So playgrounders, what do you think of the build I've got?

Human Duskblade 11/Swiftblade 9
32 point buy
Strength 16 (14)
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 18 (16)
Wisdom 13 (12)
Charisma 8

(God with Time Domain)
(Alignment matching God's)

Feats –
Expeditious Dodge (Bonus human)
Mobility (Level 1)
Arcane Disciple (Time) (Level 3)
Spring Attack (Level 6)
Arcane Strike (Level 9)
Bounding Assault (Bonus instead of spring attack)
Level 12
Level 15
(Bonus feat instead of bounding assault)
Rapid Blitz (Level 18)

Skills
Concentration 23
Spellcraft 23
Sense Motive 11 +4 (cc)
Knowledge Arcana 23
Knowledge Religion 11
Tumble 23
Jump 5

Still need 3 feats and the right deity.


Havent bought anything yet. Also what should I take as the three remaining feats?

Power Attack would be good for this build, try to get the highest +hits as you can. Greatsword's a perfectly fine weapon, especially for a power attack build.

[DoughGuy]

Porbably better to take power attack around level 9 then. Arcane Strike can be pushed to level 12 for when I have more spells. Greatsword is probably the way to go since I have no feats left for proper TWF.

Somewhere earlier the point was raised that it could only prepare haste once per day. This means I can only cast one level 3 spell per day. this may be a problem depending on the DMs interpretation of -

Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste.

Whether they take it as must use all spell slots to cast haste or may only cast level 3 spells as haste.