Good Class for an Antropomorphic Dire Tortoise

[Tokuhara]

What it says on the box: What would be a good class in PF for an Antropomorphic Dire Tortoise

I am Large-Sized and have the LA waived (DM said rule of cool beats RAW)

and please, for the love of the d20 Gods, no ninja.

[Urpriest]

How many RHD do you have? As I recall Anthropomorphic generally lowers the RHD, but I don't recall to what.

Anyway, do you still have the Tortoise's ability to always go first? In that case, Ninja might actually be nice...or Rogue, or a Caster.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to go out on a limb and say swiftblade.

Really. Swiftblade.

Ok, just go wizard x / swiftblade 10

You always act on a surprise round due to dire tortoise and now you get two standard actions during that round to cast two powerful wizard spells.

[Tokuhara]

I have 3 RHD, Large Size (meaning sneaky is a bad idea), and decent ability modifiers. Think the turtle version, just MUCH bigger.

I had the idea of taking Stocky and Willing Deformity (Obese) early on. Perhaps turning tanking into a viable strategy?

[Urpriest]

I have 3 RHD, Large Size (meaning sneaky is a bad idea), and decent ability modifiers. Think the turtle version, just MUCH bigger.

I had the idea of taking Stocky and Willing Deformity (Obese) early on. Perhaps turning tanking into a viable strategy?

As a melee character who always goes first you could make a fair Shock Trooper. Tankiness is more reactive, but there are probably things you could do. Perhaps lockdown with Intimidate?

[Dr.Epic]

Fighter. I'd imagine they wouldn't be too fast and with the shell would have a high AC so a meat shield is ideal for them.

[Tokuhara]

As a melee character who always goes first you could make a fair Shock Trooper. Tankiness is more reactive, but there are probably things you could do. Perhaps lockdown with Intimidate?

Well, Huge Size + 3.1x weight is just scary

[Tokuhara]

So a Shocktrooper-based with some Intimidate is the goal.

How good is Samurai from Ultimate Combat? I thought it could be cool to see a Samurai Turtle over a Ninja Turtle (Samurai beat Viking, Ninja lost to Spartan)

[TurtleKing]

How about Monk? Before you say anything just imagine a Anthromorphic Dire Tortoise doing a Body Slam or similar. Adjust as needed for fun and playability.

[Tokuhara]

How about Monk? Before you say anything just imagine a Anthromorphic Dire Tortoise doing a Body Slam or similar. Adjust as needed for fun and playability.

We already have a monk in the party. And he's the wuxia-style

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm seeing Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian/Warblade going into Bloodclaw Rager (or whatver its called in ToB). Throwing that out there.

[Tokuhara]

I'm seeing Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian/Warblade going into Bloodclaw Rager (or whatver its called in ToB). Throwing that out there.

I have to sitck class-wise to Pathfinder-only

[Eldan]

Can you take feats from non-Pathfinder sources? Because at huge size, you could do a pretty mean spiked chain lockdown build. Or get Large and in Charge and/or Knockback.

[Tokuhara]

Can you take feats from non-Pathfinder sources? Because at huge size, you could do a pretty mean spiked chain lockdown build. Or get Large and in Charge and/or Knockback.

Here are the rules:

Base Classes: Any from PFSRD
Prestige Classes: Any from PF, 3.0, 3.5, Dragon Magazine
Feats: "

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Anthropomorphic Dire Tortoise
Anthropomorphic Dire Tortoise
ANTHROPOMORPHIC DIRE TORTOISE
TORTOISE IN A CAMPAIGN
TORTOISE POWER

...but seriously, what are your stats looking like? Ranger, Barbarian, Magus, Paladin, Alchemist, Psychic Warrior...all depends.

[Tokuhara]

Anthropomorphic Dire Tortoise
Anthropomorphic Dire Tortoise
ANTHROPOMORPHIC DIRE TORTOISE
TORTOISE IN A CAMPAIGN
TORTOISE POWER

...but seriously, what are your stats looking like? Ranger, Barbarian, Magus, Paladin, Alchemist, Psychic Warrior...all depends.

Something along the lines (with Obese and Stocky) of:

+16 str, -4 dex, +14 con, +2 wis, +4 cha
Lightning Strike
+19 Natural Armor
Cannot wear Traditional Armor
Darkvision 60
Speed: 20 feet; Burrow 20
Trample
+12 Hide in rocky terrain

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Something along the lines (with Obese and Stocky) of:

+16 str, -4 dex, +14 con, +2 wis, +4 cha
Lightning Strike
+19 Natural Armor
Cannot wear Traditional Armor
Darkvision 60
Speed: 20 feet; Burrow 20
Trample
+12 Hide in rocky terrain

/jaw drop.

How many class levels and what is your ECL going to be starting out?

[Tokuhara]

/jaw drop.

How many class levels and what is your ECL going to be starting out?

3 RHD and start at level 5

[Jheska]

There's always the possibility of gishing it up, the main drawbacks are traditionally supporting both sides at once and with that kind of stat the physical side is entirely done, letting you focus on casting to support it.

Not a great deal of experience with 3.p over 3.5 however so unsure of the practicality, those racial bonuses really do have almost the entire melee package supported on their own though, might as well abuse that.

[Eldan]

Wow. And your DM actually allowed that?

In any case, use that strength and size. Take any of the classic melee builds, you can't really go wrong.

Alternatively, be ironic and build a wizard.

[Tokuhara]

Wow. And your DM actually allowed that?

In any case, use that strength and size. Take any of the classic melee builds, you can't really go wrong.

Alternatively, be ironic and build a wizard.

Yeah. He thought it would be cool. Boy is he in for a rude revelation.

And what sort of melee build would be "ideal?" A dragoon who weighs 12,000 pounds is a little scary

[SamBurke]

Pathfinder Druid would be a good idea; you can shape into other animals so you can move easier, and when wild shaping, you still use your own (MASSIVELY BOOSTED) statistics (with a few small alterations, admittedly), so you can really melee it up.

Plus, Druid is a good answer for anything.

[Eldan]

Yeah. He thought it would be cool. Boy is he in for a rude revelation.

And what sort of melee build would be "ideal?" A dragoon who weighs 12,000 pounds is a little scary

That depends. Going Ubercharger or chain tripper feels pretty dickish, with those stats. I think you can afford to do something stylish but not very strong. Take a class you always wanted to try, but always thought was too weak?

[Tokuhara]

Pathfinder Druid would be a good idea; you can shape into other animals so you can move easier, and when wild shaping, you still use your own (MASSIVELY BOOSTED) statistics (with a few small alterations, admittedly), so you can really melee it up.

Plus, Druid is a good answer for anything.

Druid...

Honestly, there is still a tender spot for my DM (when I ruined his campaign as a Druid).

I don't really play melee. I either play Druid or Cleric, so I want to branch out and try new things

[SamBurke]

That depends. Going Ubercharger or chain tripper feels pretty dickish, with those stats. I think you can afford to do something stylish but not very strong. Take a class you always wanted to try, but always thought was too weak?

That's being a good player, there. Maybe just a straight up Sword-n-Board Fighter? Cavalier?

[Sir Swindle89]

just go barbarian and since you can use 3.5 PrC's build to Primeval (frostburn) and turn into another Dire Tortise!

It's actually really good. the stat mods add for Primeval rather than replace the current ones.

[Tokuhara]

That's being a good player, there. Maybe just a straight up Sword-n-Board Fighter? Cavalier?

They don't make animals big enough for me to ride...

And I kind of want to be seen as "Mr. Damage"

[Tokuhara]

That's being a good player, there. Maybe just a straight up Sword-n-Board Fighter? Cavalier?

They don't make animals big enough for me to ride...

And I kind of want to be seen as "Mr. Damage"

[Eldan]

You are huge. Technically, I think, you could ride a Baleen whale.

[Tokuhara]

You are huge. Technically, I think, you could ride a Baleen whale.

On Land?

I may do a Witch Hunter or a Barbarian focused on a REALLY big spiky stick (nicknamed "The Ugly Stick")

[Eldan]

On Land?

I may do a Witch Hunter or a Barbarian focused on a REALLY big spiky stick (nicknamed "The Ugly Stick")

Ah. Land. Gotcha. :smalltongue:

Yeah, that's a bit of a problem.

The monster index on wizards tells me that the following animals are also gargantuan:
Dire Elephant (MMII, Masters of the Wild, both 3.0)
Roc
Stegosaurus
Titanic Toad (MMII)
Zeuglodon (Frostburn)

[Axier]

If you could convert a 3.5 class over to PF, Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic) with something else would be cool. You could breathe fire like bowser and combine it with something that hits hard.

[Tokuhara]

Question:

How good is the combination of Serene Barbarian and Scarred Rager?

[silver spectre]

They don't make animals big enough for me to ride...

And I kind of want to be seen as "Mr. Damage"

If you aren't worried about being the smart type then go Barbarian (or other full BAB class) into War Hulk.

That is about as "Mr Damage" as you can get.

[Tokuhara]

If you aren't worried about being the smart type then go Barbarian (or other full BAB class) into War Hulk.

That is about as "Mr Damage" as you can get.

So a:

Scarred Serene Rager/War Hulk?

I focus on being just plain scary (a 10 foot 12,000 pound Bipedial Tortoise is scary IMO)

[Eldan]

If you want to be scary, grab intimidating rage and similar feats. You get so angry, people run away. Which works well if you are a two-story turtle.

Actually, get some armour spikes and a fire breath weapon, and call your self King Koopa.

[Tokuhara]

If you want to be scary, grab intimidating rage and similar feats. You get so angry, people run away. Which works well if you are a two-story turtle.

Actually, get some armour spikes and a fire breath weapon, and call your self King Koopa.

They make Armor Spikes for natural armor??? And Nobody told me?

I know of the graft that gives me a breath weapon.

I expect my DM's book collection to fly in the general vicinity of my head if I called myself King Koopa

[Sir Swindle89]

You are huge. Technically...

He's technically not huge because anthropomirphic >large=large

So a good old fashioned elephant works just fine.

also, Primeval from Frostburn learn it love it.

[Axinian]

I take it you got the restriction that Anthropomorphic Animals can't be dire waved?

[Eldan]

He's technically not huge because anthropomirphic >large=large

So a good old fashioned elephant works just fine.

also, Primeval from Frostburn learn it love it.

Yeah, but he's getting Obesity and Stockyness. Which I thought made him count larger for that too.

[MesiDoomstalker]

They make Armor Spikes for natural armor??? And Nobody told me?

I know of the graft that gives me a breath weapon.

I expect my DM's book collection to fly in the general vicinity of my head if I called myself King Koopa

Theres this wonderful little item called Sovereign Glue. Get some. It has a million uses. Then go DFA.

[Tokuhara]

I take it you got the restriction that Anthropomorphic Animals can't be dire waved?

Yeah. It got waived because it is just plain cool

[Axinian]

Yeah. It got waived because it is just plain cool
Yes, yes it is.

Just for silliness, maybe do a Fist of the Forest? Get your MASSIVE Con mod to AC, and I'm sure you have natural armor out the wazoo already. It would just be fun to have an AC stupidly high without wearing any armor.

Edit:

Too bad you can't be Dragonfire Adept, then you could be this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3051/3009122977_2f78295688.jpg

[Eldan]

Theres this wonderful little item called Sovereign Glue. Get some. It has a million uses. Then go DFA.

Or, since he can't wear normal armour, get some kind of barding with spikes on it.

[SamBurke]

Or, since he can't wear normal armour, get some kind of barding with spikes on it.

If he can't wear armor, why would he be able to wear a barding? I mean, horses can and all, but it seems like trying to circumvent the ONLY disadvantage he has.

[Skaven]

Does it have to be dire?

You could totally be a wizard/sorcerer inspired by Clothahump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothahump).

http://asemoth.deviantart.com/#/d4clipw
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs42/f/2009/145/c/3/Spellsinger___Clothahump_by_poisonmilow.png

[DonutBoy12321]

How good is Samurai from Ultimate Combat?

If you mean Complete Warrior (instead of Ultimate Combat) then Samurai is useless. Restricted to specific weapons, some useless Intimidate abilities, and it doesn't actually give TWF feats, just similar effects, if I remember correctly.

[Fouredged Sword]

Magus could work well. You have melee down without going into a melee class. Spellcasting is a very nice boost to any build.

Do you keep the dire tortoise ability to get a surprise round in every combat?

[Axinian]

If you mean Complete Warrior (instead of Ultimate Combat) then Samurai is useless. Restricted to specific weapons, some useless Intimidate abilities, and it doesn't actually give TWF feats, just similar effects, if I remember correctly.

No he means Ultimate Combat, the Pathfinder book.

The Samurai is just a variant of Cavalier. I would imagine it's just as good, that is to say, merely okay. Cavalier always seemed meh or weak to me, unless you really supe up your mount.

[Metahuman1]

Anthropomorphic Dire Tortoise
Anthropomorphic Dire Tortoise
ANTHROPOMORPHIC DIRE TORTOISE
TORTOISE IN A CAMPAIGN
TORTOISE POWER

...but seriously, what are your stats looking like? Ranger, Barbarian, Magus, Paladin, Alchemist, Psychic Warrior...all depends.

Go Go Tortoise rangers!

But really, I like Barbarian with a bit of fist of the forest, and IF you can jack up your will save AND get a couple of rerolls, Frenzied Breserker.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Quick question about "traditional armor": does this mean you just have to have custom armor created or something like barding? Or you can't wear armor of any kind, period. Cause if you can wear armor, just at added cost, go something with heavy armor preferably.

10+19 NA+ 8 fullplate-1 size-1 dex=35 AC assuming dex of 8. Ya, you have a decent chance of having your AC keeping up or out pasing attack bonus. Add in Fist of the Forest (and taking off the armor), you'd get your con to AC too which shoul be pretty darn high.

So, lets say you put 14 as a base score for Con with a +14 racial mod for a starting total of 28, and a mod of +9. The same as a +1 Fullplate. Lets say then you go the 8th level, put both level mods into it and buy an Amulet of Health +2 and have taken at least 1 level of Fist of the Forest and 1 level of Barbarian. That's 32 without Rage, mod of +11, 36 with Rage, mod of +13.

10+19+11-1-1=38 so not much boost here. But a different stat spread, say without even a Dex bonus (difficult with a -4 racial mod), add things like Bracers of Armor, Ring of Deflection, and Amulet of Natural armor, you can boost it +3 more for minmal investment, ~5k gp. After that the cost to increase those starts going up fast but if you can get approval for items that give Sacred, Competence, etc. bonuses to AC, just buy a bunch of those.

Does anybody else know how to cheaply boost AC?

[Tokuhara]

Quick question about "traditional armor": does this mean you just have to have custom armor created or something like barding? Or you can't wear armor of any kind, period. Cause if you can wear armor, just at added cost, go something with heavy armor preferably.

10+19 NA+ 8 fullplate-1 size-1 dex=35 AC assuming dex of 8. Ya, you have a decent chance of having your AC keeping up or out pasing attack bonus. Add in Fist of the Forest (and taking off the armor), you'd get your con to AC too which shoul be pretty darn high.

So, lets say you put 14 as a base score for Con with a +14 racial mod for a starting total of 28, and a mod of +9. The same as a +1 Fullplate. Lets say then you go the 8th level, put both level mods into it and buy an Amulet of Health +2 and have taken at least 1 level of Fist of the Forest and 1 level of Barbarian. That's 32 without Rage, mod of +11, 36 with Rage, mod of +13.

10+19+11-1-1=38 so not much boost here. But a different stat spread, say without even a Dex bonus (difficult with a -4 racial mod), add things like Bracers of Armor, Ring of Deflection, and Amulet of Natural armor, you can boost it +3 more for minmal investment, ~5k gp. After that the cost to increase those starts going up fast but if you can get approval for items that give Sacred, Competence, etc. bonuses to AC, just buy a bunch of those.

Does anybody else know how to cheaply boost AC?

No armor period

[MesiDoomstalker]

No armor period

Then Fist of the Forest seems almost required with that massive Con your going to have.

What about shields, like say an Animated one?

[Tokuhara]

Then Fist of the Forest seems almost required with that massive Con your going to have.

What about shields, like say an Animated one?

I can't wear body armor, but I can carry a shield

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ninja ninja ninja ninja!

Yes, I had to say that four times. There are four of them.

Ranger could work too, with TWF style. Quarterstaves are double weapons, and longswords, sai, and nunchaku can be dual wielded. :smalltongue:

What about Unbreakable? Or Dragoon or cavalier. :smallbiggrin:

[MesiDoomstalker]

I can't wear body armor, but I can carry a shield

+1 Soulfire Buckler (Mithral optional), get it. It will protect you from loads upon loads of bad stuff without affecting your ability to us 2-handed weapon. It won't add to your AC if you use a 2-hander but if you put spikes on it, see if you can wear gauntlets (sketchy), and enchant the spikes, the shield (as a weapon) as +1 Defending (I would say Eager too but you always go first so Iniative is a non-issue). Have a friendly caster cast GMW with a Lesser Chain Metamagic Rod to boost all of your weapons to the given amount. Make sure your main 2-handed weapon, your shield, its spikes, and gauntlets if you have them all get enchanted. Use Defending's property, dump all the enhancment bonus into your AC. So that is 2xEnhancment bonus or 4 if you can wear gauntlets to AC. You could do the same with your main weapon but then you start sacrificing your offense.

[Metahuman1]

I'd look at Bracers of Armor as well. There not a perfect Item but they can let you get extra property's with out as much of a gimp. Heavy Fortification and Freedom of Movement and Ghost touch are good examples.

[Tokuhara]

+1 Soulfire Buckler (Mithral optional), get it. It will protect you from loads upon loads of bad stuff without affecting your ability to us 2-handed weapon. It won't add to your AC if you use a 2-hander but if you put spikes on it, see if you can wear gauntlets (sketchy), and enchant the spikes, the shield (as a weapon) as +1 Defending (I would say Eager too but you always go first so Iniative is a non-issue). Have a friendly caster cast GMW with a Lesser Chain Metamagic Rod to boost all of your weapons to the given amount. Make sure your main 2-handed weapon, your shield, its spikes, and gauntlets if you have them all get enchanted. Use Defending's property, dump all the enhancment bonus into your AC. So that is 2xEnhancment bonus or 4 if you can wear gauntlets to AC. You could do the same with your main weapon but then you start sacrificing your offense.

While a creative(ish) solution, I like being Mr. Damage. I've held the posiotion in our group for 4 years (beginning with a Drow Sorcerer/Prestige Bard/Virtuoso/Bladesinger).

[MesiDoomstalker]

While a creative(ish) solution, I like being Mr. Damage. I've held the posiotion in our group for 4 years (beginning with a Drow Sorcerer/Prestige Bard/Virtuoso/Bladesinger).

Normally, boosting AC is futile and prevents you from doing just about anything else. But you have 19 Natural Armor to start. Minor pimping of your AC is all that is needed. What I suggested costs you 16k gp for 2xenhancment bonus to AC. Ring of Deflection +1 is 2k, Bracers of Armor is 1k, Amulet of Natural Armor is 2k. Thats 21k for 3+2xenhancment bonus to AC on top of your 19 NA. The only thing I suggested that could affect your offense is Fist of the Forest and since you just want 1 level, you could take Unarmed Swordsage for 1 level and then Fist of the Forest for 1 level and you get Con to AC. Then get the party Wizard or Cleric (who are hopefully good) to cast Greater Luminescent Armor for another +8 with a -4 debuff to melee against you. Swordsage increases your offensive potential with a few strategic maneuvers and you can still do just about anything else for offensive potential. Your RHD give you +3 BAB, +3 Fort and Will, +1 Ref, 6x(2+int) skill points, and simple weapon proficiency. Anything that makes you "Mr. Damage" that doesn't require a ton of feats right off the bat can be fit Fist of the Forest in easily. One pre-req can be gained through Swordsage (and the asorted benefits that come with it), another you should have already (Power Attack) and the last is a feat tax as Great Fortitude.

Monstrous Humanoid 3/Full BAB class 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Fist of the Forest 1/whatever 14

You've got a lot to work with. You can be mister damage while keeping with the fact you are a giant turtle. I mean your a giant turtle! Nothing should be able to pierce your shell!

Guess the crux of what I'm saying is just because you want to be "Mr. Damage" doesn't mean you can't put a few resources into defense since you have a decent chance of it being worth it.

[Tokuhara]

Normally, boosting AC is futile and prevents you from doing just about anything else. But you have 19 Natural Armor to start. Minor pimping of your AC is all that is needed. What I suggested costs you 16k gp for 2xenhancment bonus to AC. Ring of Deflection +1 is 2k, Bracers of Armor is 1k, Amulet of Natural Armor is 2k. Thats 21k for 3+2xenhancment bonus to AC on top of your 19 NA. The only thing I suggested that could affect your offense is Fist of the Forest and since you just want 1 level, you could take Unarmed Swordsage for 1 level and then Fist of the Forest for 1 level and you get Con to AC. Then get the party Wizard or Cleric (who are hopefully good) to cast Greater Luminescent Armor for another +8 with a -4 debuff to melee against you. Swordsage increases your offensive potential with a few strategic maneuvers and you can still do just about anything else for offensive potential. Your RHD give you +3 BAB, +3 Fort and Will, +1 Ref, 6x(2+int) skill points, and simple weapon proficiency. Anything that makes you "Mr. Damage" that doesn't require a ton of feats right off the bat can be fit Fist of the Forest in easily. One pre-req can be gained through Swordsage (and the asorted benefits that come with it), another you should have already (Power Attack) and the last is a feat tax as Great Fortitude.

Monstrous Humanoid 3/Full BAB class 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Fist of the Forest 1/whatever 14

You've got a lot to work with. You can be mister damage while keeping with the fact you are a giant turtle. I mean your a giant turtle! Nothing should be able to pierce your shell!

So I am a sumo tortoise thingy...

SWEET!!!

So

RHD 3/Scarred Serene Rager 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Stoneblessed (Dwarf) 3/Deep Warden 2/War Hulk 4/Frenzied Berserker 4

[Seth62]

I say monk. You can run crazy fast and shock everyone, including any rabbits

[Tokuhara]

I say monk. You can run crazy fast and shock everyone, including any rabbits

I want some Barbarian-y fun, so the Alignment restriction is kind of a pain

[Philistine]

I didn't think you'd be able to use Swordsage, since it's a non-PF base class. If you can, though, it might be worthwhile to try to squeeze in one more level to add Wis to AC as well. Alternatively, replace UASS with a Monk dip for both Wis to AC and IUS.

ETA: Your DM has already waived the restriction against anthropomorphic dire animals - ignoring the rather silly alignment restrictions on Barb, Monk, or both is a much smaller (and also more common) change.

[MesiDoomstalker]

So I am a sumo tortoise thingy...

SWEET!!!

So

RHD 3/Scarred Serene Rager 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Stoneblessed (Dwarf) 3/Deep Warden 2/War Hulk 4/Frenzied Berserker 4

Make sure you wear a Diaper Thingy of Giant Sumo Strength +x

But yes, that will work. Like, extreme heavy hitter that almost can't be touched (excpet, you know, spells). You get Con to AC twice (and can dump Dex if you don't care about what you do after the suprise round). Without any other bonus, your getting at least another 14 (assuming 10 base Con, but really it should be much higher). And then theres War Hulk and Frenzied Beserker goodness. Just be sure your Will save is up to snuff to end the Frenzy when every you need to.

EDIT:


I didn't think you'd be able to use Swordsage, since it's a non-PF base class. If you can, though, it might be worthwhile to try to squeeze in one more level to add Wis to AC as well. Alternatively, replace UASS with a Monk dip for both Wis to AC and IUS.

As OP pointed out, alignment conflict with monk. Plus Monk's bonus to AC wouldn't stack with Fist of the Forest. The class features are identical, including the name, but FotF gives you Con instead of Wis.

And since I forgot Swordsage is out, Fighter 1 could do, using the feat to snag Improved Unarmed. It even has Hanlde Animal as a class skill! (though I keep hearing about how Pathfinder 'fixed' skills so that may not be as much benefit as in 3.5)

[Tokuhara]

Make sure you wear a Diaper Thingy of Giant Sumo Strength +x

But yes, that will work. Like, extreme heavy hitter that almost can't be touched (excpet, you know, spells). You get Con to AC twice (and can dump Dex if you don't care about what you do after the suprise round). Without any other bonus, your getting at least another 14 (assuming 10 base Con, but really it should be much higher). And then theres War Hulk and Frenzied Beserker goodness. Just be sure your Will save is up to snuff to end the Frenzy when every you need to.

EDIT:



As OP pointed out, alignment conflict with monk. Plus Monk's bonus to AC wouldn't stack with Fist of the Forest. The class features are identical, including the name, but FotF gives you Con instead of Wis.

And since I forgot Swordsage is out, Fighter 1 could do, using the feat to snag Improved Unarmed. It even has Hanlde Animal as a class skill! (though I keep hearing about how Pathfinder 'fixed' skills so that may not be as much benefit as in 3.5)

Just spoke to the DM: ToB is the only non-pf classes allowed

Edit: and the "Diaper" is called a Mawashi. However, I might wear an Armored Kilt

[MesiDoomstalker]

Just spoke to the DM: ToB is the only non-pf classes allowed

Edit: and the "Diaper" is called a Mawashi. However, I might wear an Armored Kilt

Wonderful! I would give you advice of manuevers/stances but it really comes down to what will still be useful down the line.

Shadow Jaunt would be useful for non-magical teleport. Not a huge range or efficient on action economy but useful in a pinch.

The save replacers, especially for Will would be good if you can pump Concentration. Check with your DM if you can do that while Frenzied/Raging, before you do though otherwise you can't use it to stop your Frenzy.

I'm sure there are others but those are the ones I always try to grab when I dib Swordsage.

[Tokuhara]

Wonderful! I would give you advice of manuevers/stances but it really comes down to what will still be useful down the line.

Shadow Jaunt would be useful for non-magical teleport. Not a huge range or efficient on action economy but useful in a pinch.

The save replacers, especially for Will would be good if you can pump Concentration. Check with your DM if you can do that while Frenzied/Raging, before you do though otherwise you can't use it to stop your Frenzy.

I'm sure there are others but those are the ones I always try to grab when I dib Swordsage.

I want maneuvers that blend Turtle Kung-Fu (Defensive-Focused with a more chess player mentality) and Sumo Wrestling (More traditional, which combines striking and jujuitsu)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wonderful! I would give you advice of manuevers/stances but it really comes down to what will still be useful down the line.

Shadow Jaunt would be useful for non-magical teleport. Not a huge range or efficient on action economy but useful in a pinch.

The save replacers, especially for Will would be good if you can pump Concentration. Check with your DM if you can do that while Frenzied/Raging, before you do though otherwise you can't use it to stop your Frenzy.

I'm sure there are others but those are the ones I always try to grab when I dib Swordsage.

Shadow Jaunt is magical. Anyone with an ounce of sense sticks a Su tag on it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I want maneuvers that blend Turtle Kung-Fu (Defensive-Focused with a more chess player mentality) and Sumo Wrestling (More traditional, which combines striking and jujuitsu)

Setting Sun has throwing maneuvers. Not exactly what your looking for but thats the best I can think of.


Shadow Jaunt is magical. Anyone with an ounce of sense sticks a Su tag on it.

RAW, no. RAI, yes. It only really matters if he gets stuck in an AMF and tries to use it.

[Tokuhara]

Setting Sun has throwing maneuvers. Not exactly what your looking for but thats the best I can think of.


I was thinking Setting Sun as well. Maybe combining it with another discipline to match Sumo-Turtle Kung-Fu

[Hiro Protagonest]

I was thinking Setting Sun as well. Maybe combining it with another discipline to match Sumo-Turtle Kung-Fu

Stone Dragon and Diamond Mind, maybe some Tiger Claw like Wolf Fang Strike and Wolverine Stance. Also maybe Martial Study/Stance for Iron Heart.

[Tokuhara]

Stone Dragon and Diamond Mind, maybe some Tiger Claw like Wolf Fang Strike and Wolverine Stance. Also maybe Martial Study/Stance for Iron Heart.

If I never see IHS or By Crom again, it'll be too soon

[Philistine]

As OP pointed out, alignment conflict with monk.
And as I pointed out in my edit, ditching the rather nonsensical alignment restrictions is both a common houserule, and a comparatively minor one compared to okaying the OP's chosen race.


Plus Monk's bonus to AC wouldn't stack with Fist of the Forest. The class features are identical, including the name, but FotF gives you Con instead of Wis.
That's an extremely contentious interpretation at best - it's not clear that it's RAW, since it does key off a different stat, and it's almost certainly not RAI given that 1) the PrC explicitly states that it was created for Monks as well as Barbarians, and 2) the sample FotF in CChamp is clearly getting both Wis and Con to AC. So I wonder, do you have a source you can cite to support that?

Last and by far least, anecdote time! While I've only seen it come up a handful of times in actual play, in every single case the DM has interpreted the wording in favor of the Monk/FotF. In contrast, "No gaining one stat bonus to a given derived stat twice" (as for example dipping Paladin in a Crusader build to get 2xCha to Will saves, or your suggestion to get Con to AC twice) is in fact routinely banned.

[Tokuhara]

And as I pointed out in my edit, ditching the rather nonsensical alignment restrictions is both a common houserule, and a comparatively minor one compared to okaying the OP's chosen race.


That's an extremely contentious interpretation at best - it's not clear that it's RAW, since it does key off a different stat, and it's almost certainly not RAI given that 1) the PrC explicitly states that it was created for Monks as well as Barbarians, and 2) the sample FotF in CChamp is clearly getting both Wis and Con to AC. So I wonder, do you have a source you can cite to support that?

Last and by far least, anecdote time! While I've only seen it come up a handful of times in actual play, in every single case the DM has interpreted the wording in favor of the Monk/FotF. In contrast, "No gaining one stat bonus to a given derived stat twice" (as for example dipping Paladin in a Crusader build to get 2xCha to Will saves, or your suggestion to get Con to AC twice) is in fact routinely banned.

The big difference is that UASS doesn't suck. Maneuvers > Fast Movement

[MesiDoomstalker]

And as I pointed out in my edit, ditching the rather nonsensical alignment restrictions is both a common houserule, and a comparatively minor one compared to okaying the OP's chosen race.


That's an extremely contentious interpretation at best - it's not clear that it's RAW, since it does key off a different stat, and it's almost certainly not RAI given that 1) the PrC explicitly states that it was created for Monks as well as Barbarians, and 2) the sample FotF in CChamp is clearly getting both Wis and Con to AC. So I wonder, do you have a source you can cite to support that?

Last and by far least, anecdote time! While I've only seen it come up a handful of times in actual play, in every single case the DM has interpreted the wording in favor of the Monk/FotF. In contrast, "No gaining one stat bonus to a given derived stat twice" (as for example dipping Paladin in a Crusader build to get 2xCha to Will saves, or your suggestion to get Con to AC twice) is in fact routinely banned.

They have the same name. Ergo, they are the same class feature. Bonuses from the same source (like a class feature) doesn't stack unless explictly stated otherwise. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking) It even tells you to go look at the monk entry for more info.Just like Swordsage 2 or ninja 1 or any Monk PrC won't stack with monk. Just because your DM said "Ya they stack" does not make it RAW or even RAI. It makes it your DM's interpretation. Plus, you know, monks suck. And Unarmed Swordsage kicks royal butt over monk.

Not to mention that sample NPC's are not the best evidence of how things are supposed to work. There are several examples of sample NPCs with alignment restriced classes with an improper alignment.

On gaining Con to AC twice, its two different class features that have different names and both provide untyped bonuses. They stack. If the DM says "no" adjust the build accordingly.

[Philistine]

The big difference is that UASS doesn't suck. Maneuvers > Fast Movement

That much is not in dispute; but if you were to look back, you'd see that the Monk suggestion was made before you clarified that ToB was allowed. Since it is, UASS does get Wis to AC at level 2 if you can squeeze it in.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Consider a dip for the Pathfinder Monk, especially a Master of Many Styles. Could keep a nice style up while also using a ToB stance.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Consider a dip for the Pathfinder Monk, especially a Master of Many Styles. Could keep a nice style up while also using a ToB stance.

And you don't have to meet prerequisites on any style feats you take as monk bonus feats, except for Elemental Fist (as a prerequisite, not a feat), and maybe some others (I only skimmed it). First two levels each net you a free style feat.

[Metahuman1]

I'd focus mostly on stone dragon and setting sun. If you can use the replace saves tricks from Diamond mind grab them. If not, don't use Diamond mind. If you have a combo that involves jumping get some Tiger claw but again, if you do no, do not bother. There's an Iron Heart manuver that lets you make an opposed attack roll to keep from getting tagged. Could be worth looking at. Normally I'd suggest having an IHS on hand for a pinch, but you don't want to do that so I won't.

Get Endurance and Steadfast Determination worked in to jack up will saves.

I'd also consider asking the DM if he'd allow Iron will instead of Great Fort for the Fist of the Forest prerequisite. It's still a feat tax, but it's a feat tax that at least is reduced since it helps get that DC 20 will save assured.


Find out if the DM is gonna make nat 1 a auto fail. If they are, get a few luck re-rolls and not on your sheet that there for ending Frenzy only. Explain this to the DM so he doesn't give you a dirty look and that its so you don't accidentally TPK the party. Everyone will appreciate this.

If Nat 1 does not auto fail, just do what ever you have to to jack that will save bonus up to +19 or higher.

[Philistine]

Apologies in advance for the formatting - it's a real pita to do on the phone.

They have the same name...
... But key off different stats. Archivists and Clerics both have Spellcasting. They both cast Divine spells, prepared from the same list*, keyed off different stats - are those "the same class feature?" Would an Archivist/Cleric multiclass character (assuming someone was nuts enough to roll one up) only gain spellcasting from one or the other, depending on which class he had more levels in or which casting stat was higher?

* I know, I know. But Archivists start with the basic Cleric list, and that's the list their automatic spells known at each level come from.

... Ergo, they are the same class feature.
You shouldn't use 'ergo' until you've actually proven something. All you've done is to restate your opinion that "they have the same name so they must be the same." The SRD text doesn't actually say what happens if two classes give features with the same name but different mechanics, such as keying off different stats.

Bonuses from the same source (like a class feature)...
... Which you've asserted is the case, but not demonstrated.

... Which doesn't stack unless explictly stated otherwise. It even tells you to go look at the monk entry for more info. Just like Swordsage 2 or ninja 1 or any Monk PrC won't stack with monk.
Off the top of my head... Non-UA SS has different and mutually exclusive requirements to gain Wis to AC; a Monk/SS cannot meet the requirements of both simultaneously, so stacking never even comes up. Most Monk-themed PrCs, if they grant an AC Bonus at all, state that PrC levels stack with Monk levels to determine it - explicitly continuing the Monk's AC progression. And doesn't the Ninja's ability explicitly state that it doesn't stack with Monk?

Just because your DM said "Ya they stack" does not make it RAW or even RAI. It makes it your DM's interpretation.
For clarity's sake, I'm not talking about "my DM." I'm talking about seeing the same ruling from... somewhere between half a dozen and a dozen different DMs, in games I've played or applied to... without encountering a single DM who ruled to the contrary.

Plus, you know, monks suck. And Unarmed Swordsage kicks royal butt over monk.
This much is true - but if the UACC and Monk AC Bonuses are the same class feature and do not stack (which is not in dispute), if the FotF is in fact not the same as and does stack with one (which is in dispute), then it is not the same as and should stack with the other.

Not to mention that sample NPC's are not the best evidence of how things are supposed to work. There are several examples of sample NPCs with alignment restriced classes with an improper alignment.
I'm not arguing that in general. But taken together with the text explicitly calling this PrC out as highly suitable for Monks, I think this particular sample NPC more likely than not is correct.

On gaining Con to AC twice, its two different class features that have different names and both provide untyped bonuses. They stack. If the DM says "no" adjust the build accordingly.
I never said that wasn't a houserule - the example I gave featured Divine Grace and Indomitable Soul, after all. Still, it's a houserule I seem to run into all the freaking time. From many different DMs.

[Tokuhara]

Back on track, I think the UASS makes a better arguement vs. Monk.

1) Maneuvers. Quite possibly the best thing WotC did for melee characters
2) No Alignment Restrictions. Makes my life MUCH easier