custom weapon - thoughts, advice, experiences?

[The Reverend]

Ok so Im playing a warden and i want a weapon that's both a haeavy blade and hammer. as a warden i get awesome hammer feat support, but my powers will be setting up a lot of opportunity attacks and end people prone and within striking distance, so heavy blade would be nice. Im thinking of approaching my dm about a custom weapon.

Basically a Khopesh, but with the second weapon type of hammer instead of axe, one handed, d8 damage. I'd be willing to burn a feat for it if necessary.

Thoughts? I figured so small a change wouldn't be classed as "homebrew", but if necessary I'll go there too.

Thanks

[Kurald Galain]

Why not just dual wield a blade and a hammer?

[LaZodiac]

Wielding two weapons could work, but you could ask the DM if you could find a Blacksmith, and have him custom build you a hammer with a blade on the end. Think a real life hammer where it has that pick thing on the back, only it's a blade instead of a pick. I think it'd be pretty cool.

[The Reverend]

No duel wielding, I want to keep using my big ol shield, increase my ac a bit. My entire build is focused being the defenderestly defender I can be and this weapon would play off all my strong points by mid level. Also its DarkSun so no blacksmiths for me. Only campaign setting Qouri-shield feat is worth it, lvl based DR against psychic damage.

[Lucy Land]

Swapping a weapon group? Shouldn't be a problem.

Give it a name your DM can wrap his head around, like Sledge Blade, and ask!

[KillingAScarab]

Ok so Im playing a warden and i want a weapon that's both a haeavy blade and hammer. as a warden i get awesome hammer feat support, but my powers will be setting up a lot of opportunity attacks and end people prone and within striking distance, so heavy blade would be nice. Im thinking of approaching my dm about a custom weapon.

Basically a Khopesh, but with the second weapon type of hammer instead of axe, one handed, d8 damage. I'd be willing to burn a feat for it if necessary.

First, to me this smells very strongly of cheese. Unless I have misunderstood you, you're asking for a double weapon you can wield both portions of with just one hand, so you can benefit from a shield as well. Of the double weapons found in Adventurer's Vault (which all have the defensive property, anyway), even the urgrosh doesn't allow this, though it is basically an axe with a spearhead on the other end. Aside from the fact that such a double weapon would also be able to be used by small characters even if it didn't have the small property, to my knowledge 4th edition is set up to make you pick between greater defense (a shield) or greater offense (a two-handed weapon or a second weapon/double weapon if you have powers which capitalize on it). The only thing I'm aware of that sits in the middle is a spiked shield (also in Adventurer's Vault).

Second, I don't think the khopesh should be considered as the template for this. The khopesh is not a double weapon, it simply belongs to two weapon groups in the same way that the halberd belongs to both the axe weapon group and the polearm weapon group. Looking backwards at 3rd edition (Arms & Equpment Guide), it doesn't appear to have been miscategorized in 4th; it still was only a medium-sized weapon that did 1d8 slashing damage and could be dropped during that edition's convoluted trip attempts. The real thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khopesh) doesn't seem suited to this, either.

Third, since the spiked shield already exists and it's in the light blade weapon group that seems like a better template for a weapon to try to change to your needs. Take note that it is a superior melee weapon, so a feat will be required to benefit from its proficiency bonus to attack rolls. It is also a light shield, so my guess is that a heavy spiked shield could be made that would qualify as a heavy blade. You say you're in Dark Sun? Surely there's something with a thorny or serrated carapace which is large enough to turn in to a heavy shield (maybe you have to kill it yourself, though). I think you would still have to choose between enchantment to increase its attack or enchantment to increase its defense. If your DM goes for that, then you only need a weapon in the hammer weapon group for your main hand.

[The Reverend]

Not a one handed double weapon. Just a one handed weapon that belongs to both the hammer and heavy blade groups like the khopesh is an axe and a heavy blade. your suggestion of a heavy blade shield is interesting id have to give up a point of AC to use it.

You're right it is faintly whiffy of cheese, but frankly its dark sun in the 8 sessions so far we've already killed half the PCs so I figure the cheese can't last too much longer.

[Tankadin]

Are there any Axe/Hammer polearms? That should still work for Headman's Chop (I'm assuming that's why you want the heavy blade on a prone) and your warden abilities. Taking Hafted Defense would help to add a little to your missing shield bonus.

[Epinephrine]

Frankly, I wouldn't allow it. The double weapon-type weapons strike me as prone to abuse, reaping benefits of disparate weapon styles. Simply subbing in weapon types to get the combination you like is a little like creating a god with the three domains you want, to massively boost your at-will. The advantages of weapon types aren't balanced to be used in addition to one another - weapons like the Gouge are overpowered not because of their admittedly good stats, but because they allow dipping the best of feats for two weapon styles.

[The Reverend]

headsman chop is nice, but I'm looking for that Opprotunity attack that becomes an atwill with heavy blade opprotunist really. So far I like the Heavy Blade Shield as the best compromise. it is athas that sounds very athasian to me.

I'm really surprised that a Polehammer is not available, I'd take that if I had a pole arm hammer as an option as Wardens generate all kinds of difficult terrain that make people stop one freaking square from me. Kind of like a halbred with a big blunt section instead of an axe. I would allow that as a DM before my heavy blade/hammer, which i admit while "Sledge Blade" sounds awesome I could not imagine what it would look like. And when I do it looks stupid, like bath'leeth/lightsaber abomination. just dumb.

[Kurald Galain]

Not a one handed double weapon. Just a one handed weapon that belongs to both the hammer and heavy blade groups like the khopesh is an axe and a heavy blade.

Almost universally, dual-typed weapons are two-handed. This is, of course, by design, and it's a balance issue. So if you're designing your own dual-type weapon (especially something as silly as a blade with a hammer on top), a reasonable assumption would be to make it two-handed.

[The Reverend]

the exception was the khopesh, which is "versitile". The ONLY way i can see it working is Imagine a scimitar, but the back side of the curve is a heavy hammer like block. The weapon ends up looking more V than a curved swish.

edit--still silly looking kinda

[cupkeyk]

You are looking for the smatchet! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smatchet

It was designed to smash through helmets. The leaf shaped blade is weighted so that it has a gravity assisted downward stroke like the hammer.

[KingFlameHawk]

Ok so Im playing a warden and i want a weapon that's both a haeavy blade and hammer. as a warden i get awesome hammer feat support, but my powers will be setting up a lot of opportunity attacks and end people prone and within striking distance, so heavy blade would be nice. Im thinking of approaching my dm about a custom weapon.

Basically a Khopesh, but with the second weapon type of hammer instead of axe, one handed, d8 damage. I'd be willing to burn a feat for it if necessary.

Thoughts? I figured so small a change wouldn't be classed as "homebrew", but if necessary I'll go there too.

Thanks
I would think that your Khopesh idea would be the best and if I was DMing I would make it a superior weapon so it would cost a feat. For how it would look, as it is not a double weapon it would not have a hammer end and a blade end but have them on the same side so I would be thinking it would look like a regular warhammer with a short blade comeing straight out the top.

[7RED7]

You should look into finding a maquahuitl in some random source book or just seeing if your dm will hand wave it for you.

Technically a sword, but it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to beef up the end a bit for smacking things. Weld a small iron brick to the flat end. Bam Swordhammer.

Maybe a Shillelegh with a blade embedded in the shaft? Even better, razor blades.

It would be nice to have options where weapons could be modified with these properties so if you wanted a specific combination you just pay more.

[Shyftir]

Google "Splitting Maul" putting together a one-handed weaponized one is pretty easy to imagine. A feat to allow you to quickly switch which side of said weapon seems entirely reasonable. It would just be that its either a heavy blade OR a hammer but you can switch between attacks.

[Epinephrine]

Google "Splitting Maul" putting together a one-handed weaponized one is pretty easy to imagine. A feat to allow you to quickly switch which side of said weapon seems entirely reasonable. It would just be that its either a heavy blade OR a hammer but you can switch between attacks.

See, and while I find the gouge silly (axe and spear at the same time), I think the Urgrosh (axe or spear for any attack) is fine. I have no issue with a splitting maul, or weaponized drywall hammer (http://www.stanleyimages.co.uk/CatalogImages//7991_prev.jpg) (if you want one handed).

[Zaq]

4e is a game of keywords. As a rule of thumb, the more keywords you can pile onto something, the more powerful it can become. Now, while I admit that if WotC published more dual-type weapons, I'd probably find an opportunity to take advantage of them, making one just so you can combine two feats that aren't intended to be combined is bad juju. In short, it's a fairly obvious power-grab.

[Spiryt]

Google "Splitting Maul" putting together a one-handed weaponized one is pretty easy to imagine. A feat to allow you to quickly switch which side of said weapon seems entirely reasonable. It would just be that its either a heavy blade OR a hammer but you can switch between attacks.

No really need to play around with mauls, because actual weapons with both axe and some kind of hammer head were pretty popular here and there.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-S5Vh6yxVGhA/SsQAkbE1O_I/AAAAAAAAGRk/3ds7Kxzk8ek/P1010020.JPG

If that's what TS wants.

The thing is about it being stated somewhere, it seems - and it weren't from balance reasons, as far as I can see.

[missmvicious]

Try a Zaghnal War Hammer.

It's a real weapon which does what you want. It has a bludgeoning peen on one side and a knife-like wedge on the other. It's a 19th century oriental heavy weapon. Some of them have an axe wedge on one side and a curved knife on the other. Either way, it's a wicked looking thing.

I'm no authority on that type of weapon but a friend of mine is a master swordsmith and could probably equivocate it's damage to something in the PHB.

If I were to shoot from the hip, I'd say it does war pick damage, but at a Superior Weapon cost, since it's an exotic weapon, and has two damage types (bludgeon and pierce)... so 25 GP?

Either way, it would count as a home-brew, so bribe your DM with some beer and hope for the best.

[The Reverend]

Nice I like the selections folk really really good. I dont think I knew the names of any of your suggestions before the thread, seen some of them bit didn't know the proper name.
Since its dark sun. Im thinking it will end up looking like the maquahuitl or splittingmaul/zaghnalhammer, but one side is a stone or obsidian chip blade that runs the length of the handle and the back side is handle till the top where its a round sphere of Smokey quartz. I'll see if I can get a +3 to hit out of him foe it, that might not happen, but maybe beer would help.

[The Reverend]

Nice I like the selections folk really really good. I dont think I knew the names of any of your suggestions before the thread, seen some of them bit didn't know the proper name.
Since its dark sun. Im thinking it will end up looking like the maquahuitl or splittingmaul/zaghnalhammer, but one side is a stone or obsidian chip blade that runs the length of the handle and the back side is handle till the top where its a round sphere of Smokey quartz. I'll see if I can get a +3 to hit out of him for it, that might not happen, but maybe beer would help.

[missmvicious]

Splitting Maul, I think, would count as an improvised weapon, and it wouldn't be very good at bludgeoning things... not the way a war hammer, or even a mundane sledge hammer would.

The purpose of a splitting maul is to break large pieces of wood into small pieces of wood, by imbedding its wedge in the log, the slamming a sledge hammer onto it broad, flat side. One or to solid whacks, and even tree trunks will split that way. But they're clumsy tools, and wouldn't be very good for a combat setting.

Of course, I imagine if you did get hit by a splitting maul, it would make quite a mess unless you had some serious armor on.

[Mando Knight]

The problem with what you're asking in my mind isn't "how do you mash together a heavy metal head with blades" it's "how do you justify being able to use the monstrosity like a heavy blade and a hammer at the same time?"

Heavy Blades, when used properly, are entirely different weapons from hammers. They're balanced much closer to the hilt than a hammer is, and adding a blade to the head of a hammer would (by 4e's definitions of weapon groups) make it more of an axe than a heavy blade.

Also, +3 to hit on any hammer or axe is going to look terribly obviously cheesy. I'd give you superior/+2/1d10/versatile, at best. You're using an unorthodox weapon that combines two good weapon groups, there's no way I'd simply let you make it strictly better than the existing weapons.

[Epinephrine]

Heavy Blades, when used properly, are entirely different weapons from hammers. They're balanced much closer to the hilt than a hammer is, and adding a blade to the head of a hammer would (by 4e's definitions of weapon groups) make it more of an axe than a heavy blade.

Agreed; as well, the two deliver their damage in completely different manners; a hammer crushes, while a heavy blade cuts. One can see how a heavy blade weighted more for chopping might straddle the line between axe and blade. A combination hammer/blade might work, if it were a double weapon, or if you strike with different surfaces - it could act as a hammer *or* a blade, but not both at once.

[tcrudisi]

Also, +3 to hit on any hammer or axe is going to look terribly obviously cheesy. I'd give you superior/+2/1d10/versatile, at best. You're using an unorthodox weapon that combines two good weapon groups, there's no way I'd simply let you make it strictly better than the existing weapons.

I agree that +3 is just too much. But, by the same token, I think 1d10 is too low. The Gouge is 2d6b1 and combines spears + axes, making for an amazing charger. This? I dunno, 1d10 just seems low for a superior. 2d6 seems more appropriate to me, even if it's not brutal. Actually, I would feel comfortable with that: +2 / 2d6 / versatile. That's basically the same as a Maul (+2 / 2d6) and Greataxe (+2 / 1d12), except those are both military and not superior. Okay, yeah, you can argue that the superior version has versatile, but really, that's only important for small characters.

While you don't want this weapon to be strictly better than existing superior weapons, you do want it to be at least equal in all other respects to non-superior weapons, that way the addition of the weapon group makes it better, which is what a superior weapon is supposed to be. Whew, that was a wordy sentence.

/edit - I just took a look at all the superior weapons. The ones that have below 1d10 damage have it because they have really nice properties on them (reach, stout + defensive, stout + defensive + high crit, heavy thrown, or just a +3 prof bonus with some other property). The ones that have 1d10 typically have brutal, a +3 prof, or some other decent property.

Having said all that, I personally wouldn't allow it just because I don't allow homebrew. But I think it's fair (as fair as any other weapon with 2 weapon groups) and I wouldn't get up in arms if WotC released it.

[The Reverend]

Yeah I'd be happy with the exact stats of the khopesh replace axe with hammer. Heck cut versatile with it, I never plan on deliberately using it two-handed



One fighter build I contemplated used two dynamic weapons mclassed ranger to get the full size off hand weapon and took as many weapon based feats as possible. Weapon Master build., if you wanted a two handed weapon just change one weapon into wrist razors leaving you able to wield a two handed.


No gouges...thats my only weapon rule. I dont think they're cheesy, their art just makes them look ridiculous. "Beware my war shovel!!!"

[Mando Knight]

I agree that +3 is just too much. But, by the same token, I think 1d10 is too low. The Gouge is 2d6b1 and combines spears + axes, making for an amazing charger. This? I dunno, 1d10 just seems low for a superior. 2d6 seems more appropriate to me, even if it's not brutal. Actually, I would feel comfortable with that: +2 / 2d6 / versatile. That's basically the same as a Maul (+2 / 2d6) and Greataxe (+2 / 1d12), except those are both military and not superior. Okay, yeah, you can argue that the superior version has versatile, but really, that's only important for small characters.

While you don't want this weapon to be strictly better than existing superior weapons, you do want it to be at least equal in all other respects to non-superior weapons, that way the addition of the weapon group makes it better, which is what a superior weapon is supposed to be. Whew, that was a wordy sentence.

/edit - I just took a look at all the superior weapons. The ones that have below 1d10 damage have it because they have really nice properties on them (reach, stout + defensive, stout + defensive + high crit, heavy thrown, or just a +3 prof bonus with some other property). The ones that have 1d10 typically have brutal, a +3 prof, or some other decent property.

Having said all that, I personally wouldn't allow it just because I don't allow homebrew. But I think it's fair (as fair as any other weapon with 2 weapon groups) and I wouldn't get up in arms if WotC released it.
He wanted it one handed. +2/1d10/Versatile is the same as the Warhammer. Since Heavy Blade and Hammer are two good weapon groups, combining them would in my opinion be worth the Superior grade. Essentially, you're trading (compared to the also-Superior Craghammer) Brutal 2 for extra feat and enchantment compatibility.

[Adoendithas]

Maybe if you're weilding it it's a Minor Action to turn it around and use the other side? Similar to how you can use a minor action to switch weapons, but only using one. (Therefore if you enchant it it only has one daily power, but you could also Drawmij's Instant Summons it)