Ideas for making an All-Caster Campaign Challenging [PF]

[SamBurke]

PLAYERS! You know who you are. Don't read this thread!

So, I'm DMing my first PF game. I have the first few chapters written up, and a solid idea for going forward.... but there's a problem.

All the players are casters. I've got a Summoner, an Oracle, a Psion... and a Druid. Now these are all cool guys, who've worked hard on their sheets. So a re-do is definitely out of the question: I need to figure out a way to give them a decent challenge.

Other notes: This is a wilderness based tribal theme. (Yes, tribal with all casters.... Even though it all makes sense with their backstories, I don't know how that happened). The Druid is a 4e player who wanted some experience with Pathfinder. I need to make this an EPIC game for him.

Anything you Playgrounders would recommend?

[Arbane]

I'd recommend putting a lot of reponsibility on them. They have strange powers, are Chosen of the Gods, their people are counting on them, etc. Give them chances for moral dilemmas, interesting NPCs (and enemies), local legends to track down, ruins from the Old Times, prophecies, and all that good stuff.

Of course, I'd recommend that in almost ANY campaign.

For adventure-specific advice? Well, if they're in the wilderness, access to Ye Olde Magic-Mart will be distinctly limited. Heck, getting metal weaponry might be tricky, depending on the local tech base.

If you want to challenge them, try to hit them with one more fight than they have the spells for. Let enemies try to track them down and jump them while they're getting ready to sleep. When you want them to feel AWESOME, throw huge hordes of easily-blasted mooks at them, so they can blow them all up with one spell.

Remember, decent-level casters can bypass or ignore a lot of obstacles. This is WHY they're the only ones who can get to the treasure in the sunken city in the lake/the demon ruins in the volcano/the ghost-haunted tombs/the Abandoned City In The Clouds.

[SamBurke]

I'd recommend putting a lot of reponsibility on them. They have strange powers, are Chosen of the Gods, their people are counting on them, etc. Give them chances for moral dilemmas, interesting NPCs (and enemies), local legends to track down, ruins from the Old Times, prophecies, and all that good stuff.

Of course, I'd recommend that in almost ANY campaign.

Strange powers...? Hm. HM! Any thoughts on that? That sounds realllllllly interesting.

As to the others, the whole campaign is a build up to a moral dilemma, it involves a ton of NPC interactions and backstabbing and Diplomacy/Bluffing... they are investigating 3-5 ruins over the course of the game, and they do indeed get a time-sensitive prophecy.



For adventure-specific advice? Well, if they're in the wilderness, access to Ye Olde Magic-Mart will be distinctly limited. Heck, getting metal weaponry might be tricky, depending on the local tech base.



Heh, heh... about that... They'll be based at a fort whose existence depends on the fact that they have a good chunk of spell casters there to make items, heal, etc. However, there ARE a few problems with the fort's supplies, so I think that might work.

[QUOTE]
If you want to challenge them, try to hit them with one more fight than they have the spells for. Let enemies try to track them down and jump them while they're getting ready to sleep. When you want them to feel AWESOME, throw huge hordes of easily-blasted mooks at them, so they can blow them all up with one spell.


They have the eidolon and the Druid's companion, in addition to wild shape (which shouldn't be a melee problem in Pathfinder). The Psion is summoning an Astral Construct.

[Crossblade]

Increase CR
Give more fights per day


Solved.

[Thrawn4]

How about sidequests with limited time? "We need to find a cure for the special poison the commander is suffering from within three days, or he will die and our organization might fall apart" or "We just translated this script, it mentions a strange ritual tomorrow. We have to find the location." If your players can't rest all the time they have to save their spells.

Backstabbing colleagues are also a possiblity, as they have access to spells as well.

The final could take place in an antimagic zone, so that they have to use mundane means.

[gkathellar]

Remember, decent-level casters can bypass or ignore a lot of obstacles.

Actually, in an all-caster campaign, this can be a good thing. When your Cleric ends an encounter in one round with Symbol of Sleep and then the rest of the party feels bored, that's no good. But in a party of all-casters, when everyone is pulling those kinds of shenanigans, it makes the players feel like they're using resources to find tactical solutions to problems.

When the druid flies across a chasm or raises an army of treant, he's happy he played a druid. When the psion finds out crucial information by reading someone's mind or disintegrates a support column to crush an army, he's happy he played a psion. Solving problems is the core of the game, and casters are fun because they have lots of problem-solving tools.

So make the problems big, in terms of complications if not in terms of scope. Pushing casters to their breaking point by adding more encounters to the day or arbitrary limitations like AMF fields is a boring solution, and only appropriate for mixed games — in an all-caster game, you should give them chances to use their incredible power, to revel in it. But at the same time, ensure that their powers are not instantaneous solutions to the larger-scale problems of the campaign, or even of the adventure.

And yeah, emphasize that with great power comes great responsibility. They have to bear out the consequences of their godlike might.

[Kyrinthic]

Some monsters start becoming a good bit scarier to an all caster party, throw some rakshasa at them or something :)

Enemy casters and counterspells, high SR critters, golems that are plain immune to a lot of spells. Golems especially are a great way to force the party to think of a way around the encounter or enforce a puzzle solving encounter or the like.

Dont overuse the above, as mentioned, the best solution is often to let them shine, but throw enough stuff at them that they run out of batteries.

All said, lots of ways to challenge a caster, even a leveled orc warlord that picked up the mage slayer and step up feats can be scary, a group of 4 could be devestating :)

Ambushes, small groups of enemys that force them to spend resources on very small encounters. That volly of arrows from the forest and all the screeming that caused the party to buff up for a big fight are really just a pair of loud goblins with multishot.

[navar100]

Actually, in an all-caster campaign, this can be a good thing. When your Cleric ends an encounter in one round with Symbol of Sleep and then the rest of the party feels bored, that's no good. But in a party of all-casters, when everyone is pulling those kinds of shenanigans, it makes the players feel like they're using resources to find tactical solutions to problems.

When the druid flies across a chasm or raises an army of treant, he's happy he played a druid. When the psion finds out crucial information by reading someone's mind or disintegrates a support column to crush an army, he's happy he played a psion. Solving problems is the core of the game, and casters are fun because they have lots of problem-solving tools.

So make the problems big, in terms of complications if not in terms of scope. Pushing casters to their breaking point by adding more encounters to the day or arbitrary limitations like AMF fields is a boring solution, and only appropriate for mixed games — in an all-caster game, you should give them chances to use their incredible power, to revel in it. But at the same time, ensure that their powers are not instantaneous solutions to the larger-scale problems of the campaign, or even of the adventure.

And yeah, emphasize that with great power comes great responsibility. They have to bear out the consequences of their godlike might.

I second this. Let them shine as casters. Some advice from the Epic level Handbook is good here. It mentions hypothetical concern of what to do now that the party spellcasters have regular access to powerful spells. The answer is to have those spells be part of the solution. It gives the example of having Walls of Force just so the wizard can Disintegrate them.

You can do this in non-epic campaign, even with non-spellcasters. Teleport is a good example. Don't fret the party can now bypass mini-random encounters walking to the next town. Now, the party needs to Teleport to get to where the main adventure takes place. If they don't, if they walk from town to town encountering mini-random stuff, they won't arrive in time to stop the Doom they are meant to prevent.

Remember also the party is still supposed to win combats. They'll do it flashier than a party with warriors, but that's all it is, just flashier. It's ok to have the occasional tough fight; I'm meaning don't fret if it only takes a couple of spells to defeat the bad guys for the non-BBEG combats. That's supposed to happen.

[Analytica]

Strange powers...? Hm. HM! Any thoughts on that? That sounds realllllllly interesting.

It's already there in their class fluff. One has a unique power to bend the world just by inner strength, that is almost unheard of among the learned but associated with truly horrible beings from beyond the stars and below the earth. One is not so much chosen by the gods, as being able to wield the power of the gods, regardless of their will, as long as they remain true to the proper ideals - this is the kind of person who historically might have founded entire religions in your setting. One is in tune with the entire world, and all living things and all spirits in it, able to understand and speak with the spirits within everything and protected by everything that lives. One has made pacts with supremely powerful beings from beyond, and can channel them through their body.

If they reveal who they are, the world should treat them as just that special. A high-level cleric or oracle is basically the Pope, Dalai Lama or the like, or a mythological prophet. A high-level druid is Merlin. A high-level Psion is a Buddha figure or some kind of eldritch monster in human form. Just compare them to what the commoners around them are, understand and can do, and treat them accordingly.


Remember, decent-level casters can bypass or ignore a lot of obstacles. This is WHY they're the only ones who can get to the treasure in the sunken city in the lake/the demon ruins in the volcano/the ghost-haunted tombs/the Abandoned City In The Clouds.

Very, very true.

[SamBurke]

Y'all are making me really excited to run this! :smallbiggrin:

I already will be throwing CR+2s at them as a standard fight, with boss fights moving up significantly (CR+3 - 4 is going to be fairly hard, even with the bosses having lesser abilities).

The campaign, as written, does have a one month time limit, which is when the BBEG shows up. However, I don't know about forcing encounters on them... seems a little bit railroad-y. Besides, a good chunk of them are spontaneous casters, and there's always Summon X (which the summoner gets 7 of as an SLA, +Eidolon, +Having Summon X on his spell list), which means they're not going to run out of options quickly.

The idea of them having powers does mesh well with the world and the specific tone of the campaign. Any way y'all can think of to *gracefully* throw in bits of plot exposition about that? Also, as a note, nearly half of the characters were just "found" near the tribe. I think that can tie in nicely, too.

[Analytica]

The idea of them having powers does mesh well with the world and the specific tone of the campaign. Any way y'all can think of to *gracefully* throw in bits of plot exposition about that? Also, as a note, nearly half of the characters were just "found" near the tribe. I think that can tie in nicely, too.

One favourite way of mine to do backstory is to roleplay it as a minigame. Hand out character sheets for low-level hunters. Play their search for food animals for ten minutes, then have them encounter the foundling and discover some strange signs around it. Then jump back to the present time, when the now-aged hunter has just been telling that very story to the tribe.

Also, cave paintings, carvings. Could also be roleplayed as a minigame, or made as handouts.

Prophetic dreams, perhaps shared dreams, or cases where the other players are temporary characters in one character's dream.

[SamBurke]

One favourite way of mine to do backstory is to roleplay it as a minigame. Hand out character sheets for low-level hunters. Play their search for food animals for ten minutes, then have them encounter the foundling and discover some strange signs around it. Then jump back to the present time, when the now-aged hunter has just been telling that very story to the tribe.

Also, cave paintings, carvings. Could also be roleplayed as a minigame, or made as handouts.

Prophetic dreams, perhaps shared dreams, or cases where the other players are temporary characters in one character's dream.

OOOH. A minigame? Sounds fun... how did the players feel to it, and how did you move from the main game to the mini-session and back again? Was it conducted individually with the players, or together?

[Ravens_cry]

The best challenges are ones that cannot be fought directly.
Sure, you could baleful polymorph the Dread Necromancer Xaliph the Unrepentant into the slimy slug he is, but he is the personal guest of the Mage-King Valkonen of Keartoff as an envoy of the Blood Lords of Necross and as such under his personal protection. Killing him would cause an international incident that could start a war.
As agents of the mage-king, this would go against his and your interests.
There has to be some other way of dealing with him.

[gkathellar]

The best challenges are ones that cannot be fought directly.
Sure, you could baleful polymorph the Dread Necromancer Xaliph the Unrepentant into the slimy slug he is, but he is the personal guest of the Mage-King Valkonen of Keartoff as an envoy of the Blood Lords of Necross and as such under his personal protection. Killing him would cause an international incident that could start a war.
As agents of the mage-king, this would go against his and your interests.
There has to be some other way of dealing with him.

Preferably one that uses tons and tons of magically-enabled lateral thinking.