Help against the Paladin

[agentnone]

Is there anyway to resist the Smite Evil ability from a Paladin? I mean, sure I could toss an encounter against them that isn't evil or an outsider. But that doesn't fit within the idea behind my campaign to use neutral, native creatures the whole campaign. I was wanting to know if there were any feats, powers, monster templates, etc that can give my encounters an unexpected twist against the Paladin in my group by them either getting a chance to resist or not be affected by the Paladin's Smite Evil ability. This is a Pathfinder only campaign.

[Killer Angel]

There's a reason you're worried about it? With PF improvement, now SE is at least acceptable, while in 3.5 it was a joke.

Edit: of course, if you're merely interested in an "unexpected twist", to make a particular encounter memorable, the thing it's easy...

[Rad]

Besides them not being Evil in the forst place, I don't think there's anything out there. I would probably not be too worried about it though; Paladin is not the strongest of classes at all.

[agentnone]

Well, seeing as how it's an ability that just happens, doesn't end until the creature is dead and the monster doesn't get a chance to resist it, so it does unbalance things from time to time. In D&D it was only one one attack, IIRC. In PF it is triggered and lasts forever, and with the Aura of Justice ability it makes encounters extremely easy on the group. They're already level 11 and easily taking on 2 or 3 CR 13 monsters. But, I'm not wanting to use it for every encounter from here on out, I'm just looking for something to use on one or two encounters over the course of the rest of the campaign.

[umbergod]

golems are neutral by default. make him fight some of them

[BlackestOfMages]

you really shouldn;t be worried about the paladin's smite evil, tbh :smalltongue:

I mean, it's hardly the strongest class feature. the casters/rogue/bearcaster/barbarian have much nastier abilities at their disposal that aren't alignment restricted...

[W3bDragon]

In low to mid level games, the number of times per day should be control enough. If he can smite evil only twice a day, and he has to go through 3 encounters a day, each with 4 to 5 enemies, smite evil would help only about 15% of the time. That's not too different than a blaster mage blowing his big gun spell once per day.

The best control I can see here is the limited uses. Beyond that, if you're set on making the paladin's life miserable, mix in a few neutral opponents.

Is the paladin using detect evil before every smite? If he doesn't, there will be times when he's wrong.

All that said, I'd say that this shouldn't be a big problem at all. Think of it like a wizard dropping haste on the party or a barbarian raging. Sure it seems powerful, but its limited by how often it can be used. Throw enough encounters per day and enemies per encounter, and you won't have any trouble.

[umbergod]

Well, seeing as how it's an ability that just happens, doesn't end until the creature is dead and the monster doesn't get a chance to resist it, so it does unbalance things from time to time. In D&D it was only one one attack, IIRC. In PF it is triggered and lasts forever, and with the Aura of Justice ability it makes encounters extremely easy on the group. They're already level 11 and easily taking on 2 or 3 CR 13 monsters. But, I'm not wanting to use it for every encounter from here on out, I'm just looking for something to use on one or two encounters over the course of the rest of the campaign.

pathfinder paladins still only get smite evil a limited amount of times per day, not with every attack that hits an evil creature.....

[BlackestOfMages]

Indeed, to back up 2b3 dragon, smite is more effective against single enemies, throw a good old fashioned horde at them and watch the paladin be underwhelmed, if you really feel like kicking one of the weaker classes in the crotch...

though after doing so the wizard should loose their spell-book and the sorceror should have a major bount of amnisia and be unable to cast :smallannoyed:

also, what's your party size, becuase the cr of most creatures was calculated for a party of 4 - which could explain why their steamrollering it

[agentnone]

Ok, let me rephrase the question.

Is there anything an evil outsider can get/earn/use/learn that can make it avoid/save/be immune to the Paladin's Smite Evil ability? I'm not trying to make the Paladin miserable. I'm not worried about his ability to use it because the main target will have his minions. I'm just wanting to know if there's anything out there in the 3.5/PF world that gives the enemy a chance to resist it, aside from having to home brew something? It's not a default game mechanic thing. It's a campaign, storyline thing.


also, what's your party size, becuase the cr of most creatures was calculated for a party of 4 - which could explain why their steamrollering it

And my party size is 6.
Halfling: rogue 6/sorcerer 1/4 dragon deciple
Human: fighter 11
Human: sorcerer 11
Human: cleric 11
Human: wizard (transmuter) 11
Elf: paladin 11

They have typical magical gear that falls in line with their WBL. I usually double up on the monsters that I toss at them. But lately they've been too weak to make it a challenge. This is our first time playing in PF and we've all noticed the classes a lot more powerful than their 3.5 counterparts. So I've had to increase the difficulty just to make it worth everyone's time. three CR 13 monsters in one encounter makes the fight about even.

[W3bDragon]

Only thing I can think of is....

Helm of opposite alignment.

You could make it work. Let's say that this BBEG is very smart and knows he needs to protect himself against the paladin. He manages to acquire a helm of opposite alignment and always keeps it nearby to put it on when he finally squares off against the paladin. The fight starts, the BBEG puts on the helm, laughs triumphantly, and proceeds to attack, only to find himself losing heart in what he's doing. The players will push the fight whether the BBEG wants it now or not and he'll have to defend himself.

Now it can either lead to the fight eventually grinding to halt as the BBEG denounces his evil ways, or it could be that a high ranking minion casts the required spells to remove the cursed helm and the fight continues as normal. Even worse, an even higher ranking enemy, say the BBEG's boss, shows up, puts a Geas on the BBEG to keep fighting and teleports away.


Yes, its a stretch, but you could make it work.

[Killer Angel]

Ok, let me rephrase the question.

Is there anything an evil outsider can get/earn/use/learn that can make it avoid/save/be immune to the Paladin's Smite Evil ability?

The BBEG knows they're coming after him. He disguises himself as some extraplanar creature (or golem, or whatever) not evil but neutral, and proceeds to fake its alignment with some magic.
The group and the paladin will think to some powerful mercenary-bodyguard, to kill before facing the BBEG, and obviously they won't waste Smites.

edit: if the BBEG is smart enough, beforehand he will spread rumors about this deadly LN mercenary in its service...

[BlackestOfMages]

hold person on the paladin?

be a very, very, very extremist LN/CN/TN, rather than outright evil, who's doing it all for a good cause really?

be an antipaladin and smack him in the face with it first :smallamused:

or as to the Helm of evil/good switchyness, why put it on yourself when you can throw it at the paladin. at worst the powers shut down, at best you have a new minion :smallamused:

[Ceaon]

If at mid-level play a paladin's smite evil is the thing overpowering your campaign, you are a lucky DM. When I DM, a druid, cleric, sorcerer or wizard has usually completely destroyed any purpose of actually rolling dice during combat.

However, instead of downplaying the paladin, you could improve the other players and increase the encounter difficulty? I mean, 6 level 11 characters are supposed to beat a EL 13 encounter pretty easily.

Also, the way you phrased the topic (Help AGAINST the Paladin) made me chuckle.

[Darrin]

Is there anything an evil outsider can get/earn/use/learn that can make it avoid/save/be immune to the Paladin's Smite Evil ability?


Yes.

The Darksoul Protection armor property (+1 enhancement, BoVD p. 111) reduces Smite or good-based damage by half.

Six levels of Horizon Walker allows you to take the Aligned planar trait, which makes you immune to spells and abilities that harm those of an opposite alignment.

The positive energy protection (Manual of the Planes) and protection from positive energy (Planar Handbook/Spell Compendium) spells might work, but I don't see Smite Evil specifically identified as a postive energy effect.

[Killer Angel]

Yes.

The Darksoul Protection armor property (+1 enhancement, BoVD p. 111) reduces Smite or good-based damage by half.

Six levels of Horizon Walker allows you to take the Aligned planar trait, which makes you immune to spells and abilities that harm those of an opposite alignment.

The positive energy protection (Manual of the Planes) and protection from positive energy (Planar Handbook/Spell Compendium) spells might work, but I don't see Smite Evil specifically identified as a postive energy effect.

The OP specified "This is a Pathfinder only campaign", so i fear things like BoVD should be left out.

[Telonius]

There is the "Smoking Eye Creature" template from Shackled City, but that's more for material-plane creatures. (IIRC it can't be applied to people from the lower planes).

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Misdirection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/misdirection) can be fun; make him not be able to auto-detect evil all the time.

I think some people are confused about how smite evil works in Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin#TOC-Smite-Evil-Su-).

Unfortunately, Horizon Walker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/horizon-walker) doesn't work quite the same in Pathfinder.

How many encounters do they go through a day?

[Treblain]

You could have the bad guys mind-control good or neutral creatures to attack the paladin.

[agentnone]

If at mid-level play a paladin's smite evil is the thing overpowering your campaign, you are a lucky DM. When I DM, a druid, cleric, sorcerer or wizard has usually completely destroyed any purpose of actually rolling dice during combat.

However, instead of downplaying the paladin, you could improve the other players and increase the encounter difficulty? I mean, 6 level 11 characters are supposed to beat a EL 13 encounter pretty easily.

Also, the way you phrased the topic (Help AGAINST the Paladin) made me chuckle.

Actually, I'm both a lucky and unlucky DM. The campaign revolves an outsider running around causing all kinds of pain and chaos. So the Paladin is naturally the only one to make a difference. Not to mention the fact that he's the only one that plans his character out way in advance and buys gear to pretty much mn/max himself. His AC is off the chart and impossible to hit, even with touch attacks. And whenever he decides to drop his tower shield, he becomes a melee beast, outshining the fighter. So yeah, he's making things too easy for the group. The rest of party don't ever really play their class that well. The rogue has done a total of like make 12 sneak attacks. Not because I don't let him, but because he doesn't think like a rogue.

And the encounter wasn't 1 CR 13 monster, it was 3 CR 13 monsters. They were supposed to take a little punishment and retreat. They survived and won instead.

Now, most of the issue has been taken care of temporarily as the Paladin's player deployed to the middle eastern cat box for a few months. Problem is, I have to now tone down the challenges a little because without his character and leadership, the rest of the group is in horrible shape. lol and the BBEG plans on taking advantage of that.

And whoever said to put the helm of opposite alignment on the Paladin is a genius. Just have to either do it with a sneak attack or have an evil monk grapple him and put it on his head. Or the old fashioned alter aura trick.

P.S.

Glad you liked the title. It's true. The Paladin is making my game way too easy. lol My games are usually set on INSANE difficulty and the group knows this going into it. He effectively dropped it down to medium.

[Killer Angel]

Not to mention the fact that he's the only one that plans his character out way in advance and buys gear to pretty much mn/max himself. His AC is off the chart and impossible to hit, even with touch attacks. And whenever he decides to drop his tower shield, he becomes a melee beast, outshining the fighter.

Smite isn't always on. Your problem isn't the smite, but a character generally overpowered (high AC, good equipment, and so on) in confront of the other PCs. The real problem is the power gap between PCs.
Anyway, it remains a meleer, and by definition it's not a problem, unless you want to play really soft.
Use battlefield control spells (web, walls... keep the pally stuck in a place), flying monsters with ranged attacks (so sorry pallys don't fly)... be a little creative.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I doubt it would fit your scenario but there's the Touch of Benevolence feat in Champions of Ruin. It gives you a 50% chance of avoiding any effect that specifically targets evil alignments, however it requires the character to basically have a nice side.

[Killer Angel]

And whoever said to put the helm of opposite alignment on the Paladin is a genius. Just have to either do it with a sneak attack or have an evil monk grapple him and put it on his head. Or the old fashioned alter aura trick.


Oh, yes, it's a great way to ruin the game, risking also a TPK. :smallannoyed:

This is strictly IMO, but if I were the player, I would easily accept an enemy immune to Smite evil, or some magic that makes the paladin miserable for a fight... basically, something that let me still fighting and still trying to act, even if heavily under my usual standard.
But "bam, you're no more a paladin and now you're CE, next time you'll think twice before using those annoying smites", would leave me very upset.

Of course, you know your player better than me.

[charcoalninja]

I would advise against outright destroying the effectiveness of Smite evil through some means, as that's one of the big iconic shticks paladins have. It would hurt the pally's fun considerably I would think to find his smite to not work for some silly reason.

I would recommend, rather than using say 3 CR 13 creatures for an encounter, use 6 CR10s or whatever. The more opponents present in a battle, the less dramatic Smite Evil becomes due to its focused nature and limited uses. These larger battles ensure that Smite Evil remains awesome, but it doesn't have the pally an untouchable juggernaught for the whole fight.

I don't think the helm of opposite alignment is a good idea because that effectively destroys his character. It sounds that you actually have a player using a Paladin the way it should be, I vote don't mess with that! There's so many people that destroy it through terrible play.

Ranged opponents and such is certainly a speedbump to throw at him, but since Pathfinder Smite evil doesn't care what you attack with, flying critters just start eating sickass Holy Archery to the face anyway. As each ranged attack will still gain the lovely +pally level to damage.

But yeah, best way to deal with this is a lot more guys per encounter. Keeps the fights just as hard, but limits the use of Smite Evil. It does sound like you've got a player that's thrilled to meet your challenges, and I love that its a pally holding the party together. Love Paladins.

[utherphoenyx]

I would advise against outright destroying the effectiveness of Smite evil through some means, as that's one of the big iconic shticks paladins have. It would hurt the pally's fun considerably I would think to find his smite to not work for some silly reason.

I would recommend, rather than using say 3 CR 13 creatures for an encounter, use 6 CR10s or whatever. The more opponents present in a battle, the less dramatic Smite Evil becomes due to its focused nature and limited uses. These larger battles ensure that Smite Evil remains awesome, but it doesn't have the pally an untouchable juggernaught for the whole fight.

I don't think the helm of opposite alignment is a good idea because that effectively destroys his character. It sounds that you actually have a player using a Paladin the way it should be, I vote don't mess with that! There's so many people that destroy it through terrible play.

Ranged opponents and such is certainly a speedbump to throw at him, but since Pathfinder Smite evil doesn't care what you attack with, flying critters just start eating sickass Holy Archery to the face anyway. As each ranged attack will still gain the lovely +pally level to damage.

But yeah, best way to deal with this is a lot more guys per encounter. Keeps the fights just as hard, but limits the use of Smite Evil. It does sound like you've got a player that's thrilled to meet your challenges, and I love that its a pally holding the party together. Love Paladins.

yes i whole hartedly agree i love pallies but to many people bash them or groan when someone wants to play one

[Medic!]

The last PC Pally I had in a campaign was thwarted facing Baphomet (from Fiendish Codex 1) when I randomly rolled in plain view to see who would get the first nasty in the big fight. Rolled a d6 and pre-designated who was what number out of the party of 6. BAM the pally gets hit with Maze, and his int score was 10 (only thing he didn't really buff up at all). I felt awful at first, but then realized it was a party of 6 20th lvl characters and *shrug*

[utherphoenyx]

it happens character mortality is very high adventuring as a profession is like the life expectancy of well either a tomb raider or a storm chaser

[Mando Knight]

Problem is, I have to now tone down the challenges a little because without his character and leadership, the rest of the group is in horrible shape. lol and the BBEG plans on taking advantage of that.

...

Glad you liked the title. It's true. The Paladin is making my game way too easy. lol My games are usually set on INSANE difficulty and the group knows this going into it. He effectively dropped it down to medium.

I very strongly doubt that all of these statements are true:
1) HP damage from a melee character rarely ever breaks an encounter, unless it's multiplied so it turns everything into jelly. If your encounters are truly "insanely difficult," a bonus to a melee character's damage isn't going to affect that too heavily.
2) You're underestimating the leadership aspect. If one player, a melee character at that, is the reason your other players can relatively easily take on difficult encounters, that one player is likely rallying the players in other aspects, functioning as a force multiplier.

Unless he's getting crazy crits by smiting on a mounted charge with a lance or something, nerfing Smite Evil is not going to fix your problem. You'll need to re-evaluate your own tactics and DMing perspective, I think. You seem to be used to playing against unoptimized characters and giving them a good beatdown every once in a while. Your Paladin player apparently isn't. For now, I would turn away from the path of escalating the encounters to "beat him," as it will only leave the other players in the dust.

[Doc Roc]

Can I get a party layout, and an example encounter?

[Zale]

And my party size is 6.
Halfling: rogue 6/sorcerer 1/4 dragon deciple
Human: fighter 11
Human: sorcerer 11
Human: cleric 11
Human: wizard (transmuter) 11
Elf: paladin 11


I'm trying to resist strong smart-alecky comment making instincts right now..

:smallannoyed:Must.. resist...

[Doc Roc]

I'm trying to resist strong smart-alecky comment making instincts right now..

:smallannoyed:Must.. resist...

This is 3.x. Merely telling me their classes and levels is simply not enough. What does the transmuter cast? How do they play together? What feats does the paladin have? What are their play styles?

Also:

Smite's duration in PF is encounter-length, but each use only affects a single target. So you can probably just throw a few more mooks at him, or use things like Legion Demons.

[elvengunner69]

Paladins don't get a lot of love it seems -- seems that they are an unappreciated playing class. I think they can be quite fun in a campaign and should in a sense give the PC a good fighting chance in encounters (pun intended).

Team Paladin!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, seeing as how it's an ability that just happens, doesn't end until the creature is dead and the monster doesn't get a chance to resist it, so it does unbalance things from time to time. In D&D it was only one one attack, IIRC. In PF it is triggered and lasts forever, and with the Aura of Justice ability it makes encounters extremely easy on the group. They're already level 11 and easily taking on 2 or 3 CR 13 monsters. But, I'm not wanting to use it for every encounter from here on out, I'm just looking for something to use on one or two encounters over the course of the rest of the campaign.

No, that's not how it works. It lasts until the paladin takes a daily rest (the one that lasts 6-8 hours), and it's still limited per day. It's not automatic, although it is a free action (or part of an attack).

[Israel]

I have to say paladins are not overpowered at all and the fact that they have a few abilities that seem overpowered they also can only use them so much. it takes proper planning for a paladin to excel at what I have done in Agent's game. This is the paladin he has been talking about and i never read any of this till today and i see how he has been making it hard on me in the campaign. But only one more game session left and it will be game over. You guys have helped him make the encounters test me all around, and it has been a real challenge and fun to see the stuff he has thrown at the party and I. I have to say one thing though you guys hurt me mentally every game session having to improv every single fight and for that "I DISLIKE YOU ALL", but Thanks for the extremely fun game

- Varius the Defender of the Light (Paladin)