Optimizing body outside body

[drakir_nosslin]

So, I've been thinking of making some kind of volley archer for a gestalt game, and while the character is finished already I've been looking through various splat books for things that I have missed and might want to use some other time.

So, in CA there's this 7th lvl spell body outside body which essentially creates a number of clones equal to your CL/5. So, if you guys where to build a gestalt 20 gish that uses this spell how would you do it? I've been playing around with some kind of wu-jen//warblade/eternal blade to use island in time to get a ridiculous number of attacks. Anyone has a better idea, or care to expand on the above? One of my main problems is that while I can figure out how to get a large number of attacks, at lvl 20 each attack from the clones won't be doing much damage and lots and lots will be lost to DR.

So what say the playground?

EDIT: Possible build
{table=head]Level | Class | Class | Feat
1 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Iron Will, Precise Shot
2 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Rapid Shot
3 | Wu Jen | Warblade | Quicken Spell
4 | Wu Jen | Warblade |
5 | Wu Jen | Warblade |
6 | Incantatrix | Warblade | Spell Focus: Abjuration
7 | Incantatrix | Warblade |
8 | Incantatrix | Warblade |
9 | Incantatrix | Warblade | Skill Focus: Spellcraft
10 | Incantatrix | Warblade |
11 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
12 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Spell Focus: Conjuration
13 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
14 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
15 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Chain Spell
16 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
17 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
18 | Archmage | Eternal Blade | Extra Spell
19 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
20 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
[/table]

or


{table=head]Level | Class | Class | Feat
1 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Combat Casting, Precise Shot
2 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Rapid Shot
3 | Wu Jen | Warblade | Quicken Spell
4 | Wu Jen | Warblade |
5 | Wu Jen | Warblade | Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)
6 | Wyrm Wizard | Warblade | Spell Focus: Transmutation
7 | Wyrm Wizard | Wu Jen |
8 | Wyrm Wizard | Warblade |
9 | Wyrm Wizard | Wu Jen | Skill Focus: Spellcraft
10 | Spellblade | Warblade |
11 | Spellblade | Eternal Blade |
12 | Spellblade | Eternal Blade | Spell Focus: Conjuration
13 | Spellblade | Eternal Blade |
14 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
15 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Chain Spell
16 | Wyrm Wizard | Eternal Blade |
17 | Wyrm Wizard | Eternal Blade |
18 | Archmage | Eternal Blade | Feat
19 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
20 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
[/table]

With this we can buff our clones with giant size and bite of the werebear (through spellblade) and wyrm wizard gives us those spells on our spell list plus death throes.
Incantatrix means that our clones can use cooperative metamagic when buffing them, casting a quickened chained giant size and then a chained bite of the werebear in just one round.

Archmage gives the clones body outside body and death throes as a SLA, so if need be they can create their own clones, and then suicide charge the enemy dealing massive amounts of force damage.

[faceroll]

Make a build where you do lots of damage, then use the spell. Now you get 4 clones that all do lots of damage.

What's hard about this?

[drakir_nosslin]

Make a build where you do lots of damage, then use the spell. Now you get 4 clones that all do lots of damage.

What's hard about this?

The fact that I don't really have a good source for lots of damage? I can't use PA, because it's ranged, the clones get mundane and not magical weapons, so a force bow won't help, I don't have enough levels to add lots of precision damage (and I was hoping on longer range than 30 ft.), maneuvers are melee only, the clones can't cast spells, so they can't use the arcane archer arrow+spell thing... So yea, I don't really know what to do now. But you're welcome to help if you want.

[Dictum Mortuum]

So, I've been thinking of making some kind of volley archer for a gestalt game, and while the character is finished already I've been looking through various splat books for things that I have missed and might want to use some other time.

So, in CA there's this 7th lvl spell body outside body which essentially creates a number of clones equal to your CL/5. So, if you guys where to build a gestalt 20 gish that uses this spell how would you do it? I've been playing around with some kind of wu-jen//warblade/eternal blade to use island in time to get a ridiculous number of attacks. Anyone has a better idea, or care to expand on the above? One of my main problems is that while I can figure out how to get a large number of attacks, at lvl 20 each attack from the clones won't be doing much damage and lots and lots will be lost to DR.

So what say the playground?

#1 (utility job) get 2 levels of incantatrix and use the clones' cooperative metamagic on spells you cast.
#2 Get white raven tactics, cast clones, all white-raven-tactics you. You get additional full attacks equal to CL/5.
#3 Get Arcane Strike. They have all those spells, they just can't use them.

[Andion Isurand]

How about carrying poisoned arrows... and not firing them for the sake of your duplicates who would use mundane copies of them for the limited amount of time they exist.

[faceroll]

Buy a greatbow with a strength rating of a lot.
Polymorph into a firbolg (MMII).
Cast bite of the werebear and giant size on yourself.
Use zen archery to use wisdom instead of dex to hit with ranged weapons.

You now have a base strength of 36 (firbolg) + 32 (giant size) + 16 (bite of werebear). That's 8d6+37 damage. Use hunter's eye to get CL/3 sneak attack for another 6 or 7d6 sneak attack. Chain spell greater magic weapon so everyone gets +5 weapons. That's 14d6+42 per shot. Is that enough?

[Dictum Mortuum]

Buy a greatbow with a strength rating of a lot.
Polymorph into a firbolg (MMII).
Cast bite of the werebear and giant size on yourself.
Use zen archery to use wisdom instead of dex to hit with ranged weapons.

You now have a base strength of 36 (firbolg) + 32 (giant size) + 16 (bite of werebear). That's 8d6+37 damage. Use hunter's eye to get CL/3 sneak attack for another 6 or 7d6 sneak attack. Chain spell greater magic weapon so everyone gets +5 weapons. That's 14d6+42 per shot. Is that enough?

Enough, but not legal.

[Boci]

Is homebrew allowed? There are some ranged disciplines. If not, SA and dead eye for flat footedness could be an option. Remember to get chained greater magic weapon for your clone's mundane weapons.

[Andion Isurand]

Buy a greatbow with a strength rating of a lot.
Polymorph into a firbolg (MMII).
Cast bite of the werebear and giant size on yourself.
Use zen archery to use wisdom instead of dex to hit with ranged weapons.

You now have a base strength of 36 (firbolg) + 32 (giant size) + 16 (bite of werebear). That's 8d6+37 damage. Use hunter's eye to get CL/3 sneak attack for another 6 or 7d6 sneak attack. Chain spell greater magic weapon so everyone gets +5 weapons. That's 14d6+42 per shot. Is that enough?

Draconic Polymorph for +8 more strength.

As far as homebrew goes, I also made an untested spell called Flexing Weapon (http://andionisurand.blogspot.com/2011/10/spellbook.html) in my blog that allows a weapon (primarily a bow or whip) to adapt to the full strength of its wielder as it is used.

[faceroll]

Whoa, Fusion + Body Outside Body = quintuple both your powerpoints and your spells known. Neato.


Enough, but not legal.

What part isn't legal?

[Dictum Mortuum]

What part isn't legal?

Body outside body does not give you a size increase RAW, just your ability scores. Buffs (unless they buff your ability scores or grant you feats/skills/levels) won't work either.
Hunter' Eye is not a Wu-Jen spell.
Bite of the Werebear is not a Wu-Jen spell.

That's all.

[drakir_nosslin]

#1 (utility job) get 2 levels of incantatrix and use the clones' cooperative metamagic on spells you cast.
#2 Get white raven tactics, cast clones, all white-raven-tactics you. You get additional full attacks equal to CL/5.
#3 Get Arcane Strike. They have all those spells, they just can't use them.

#1 and #2 are mighty useful, #3 doesn't work since arcane strike is melee only, unfortunately.


How about carrying poisoned arrows... and not firing them for the sake of your duplicates who would use mundane copies of them for the limited amount of time they exist.

That'd work, though at lvl 20 it would have to be a nasty poison to get through those fort saves. Black lotus might do it...


Buy a greatbow with a strength rating of a lot.
Polymorph into a firbolg (MMII).
Cast bite of the werebear and giant size on yourself.
Use zen archery to use wisdom instead of dex to hit with ranged weapons.

You now have a base strength of 36 (firbolg) + 32 (giant size) + 16 (bite of werebear). That's 8d6+37 damage. Use hunter's eye to get CL/3 sneak attack for another 6 or 7d6 sneak attack. Chain spell greater magic weapon so everyone gets +5 weapons. That's 14d6+42 per shot. Is that enough?

Now that's more like it! :smallbiggrin:
Polymorph and giant size are both useful, but bite of the werebear and hunter's eye are both outside my spell list. This means some kind of custom item or leadership, and I'd rather avoid that atm.

I don't think that the clones come with any buffs on them, so that means that the 'original' must be able to chain spell polymorph and giant size as well.

EDIT: Swordsaged by Dictum, several times even.

[IncoherentEssay]

See if you can fit some Archmage in there. The duplicates can still use class features, including spell-likes. How silly this 'attack of the clones' gets depends on if the daily use is expended before or after the duplication. Infinite clones isn't quite as effective as it sounds though, their hp plummets pretty quickly to the point where a single hit causes a chain reaction wipe from the 10 dmg feedback.

[faceroll]

Body outside body does not give you a size increase RAW, just your ability scores. Buffs (unless they buff your ability scores or grant you feats/skills/levels) won't work either.
Hunter' Eye is not a Wu-Jen spell.
Bite of the Werebear is not a Wu-Jen spell.

That's all.

Getting access to those spells and chaining them on your clones is a trivial endeavor, especially given level 20 gestalt.


bite of the werebear and hunter's eye are both outside my spell list. This means some kind of custom item or leadership, and I'd rather avoid that atm.

I don't think that the clones come with any buffs on them, so that means that the 'original' must be able to chain spell polymorph and giant size as well.

EDIT: Swordsaged by Dictum, several times even.

Ocular spell (reduce metamagic cost with cheese) with a metamagic rod of chain spell, greater (or more metamagic cost reduction through cheese) will handle all the buffing you need to do.

You can get hunter's eye on your spell list with what, a couple levels?, in unseen seer. A couple levels in Wyrm Wizard does it for bite of the werebear. Otherwise use limited wish.

I'm sure there are other ways.

[Boci]

Getting access to those spells and chaining them on your clones is a trivial endeavor, especially given level 20 gestalt.

But without stacking quicken on top of chaining that’s 5 rounds of prep at the start of each battle. In a game well known for its rocket tag potential that has both kindling (high optimization level) and an accelerant (gestalt). Even with quicken its still 3.

Edit: Yay, invisible post.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Getting access to those spells and chaining them on your clones is a trivial endeavor, especially given level 20 gestalt.

Not as trivial as you may think.

Bite is a touch spell, so you need to apply reach spell first (making it ~9). Now you need to apply chain, but that means that we're under the assumption that metamagic feats stack and do not apply just to the base spell = DM fiat.

Hunter's Eye has a personal range = can't be chained.

[drakir_nosslin]

Is homebrew allowed? There are some ranged disciplines. If not, SA and dead eye for flat footedness could be an option. Remember to get chained greater magic weapon for your clone's mundane weapons.

No homebrew.
Chained GMW is one of the goals, yes. SA is a bit harder, since I want a high BAB for as many attacks as possible, and as high CL as possible for metamagic slots.


Draconic Polymorph for +8 more strength.

Draconic polymorph is not on the spell list for Wu-Jen, sadface.jpg


See if you can fit some Archmage in there. The duplicates can still use class features, including spell-likes. How silly this 'attack of the clones' gets depends on if the daily use is expended before or after the duplication. Infinite clones isn't quite as effective as it sounds though, their hp plummets pretty quickly to the point where a single hit causes a chain reaction wipe from the 10 dmg feedback.

Hmm, that's interesting. What we need is some kind of huge buff to all the clones, upping their CON after creation, since they all have 20 HD it would significantly increase their HP.


Getting access to those spells and chaining them on your clones is a trivial endeavor, especially given level 20 gestalt.

I must be stupid, but I can't see it right away. I'll need to think on this for a while.

[faceroll]

Not as trivial as you may think.

Bite is a touch spell, so you need to apply reach spell first (making it ~9). Now you need to apply chain, but that means that we're under the assumption that metamagic feats stack and do not apply just to the base spell = DM fiat.

Hunter's Eye has a personal range = can't be chained.

I prefer using ocular spell, as you can stick two spells in there. Metamagic feats stack, unless explicitly stated otherwise (like empower + maximize).


But without stacking quicken on top of chaining that’s 5 rounds of prep at the start of each battle. In a game well known for its rocket tag potential that has both kindling (high optimization level) and an accelerant (gestalt). Even with quicken its still 3.

Edit: Yay, invisible post.

Ehhhh, true. I'd want to put a few levels of incantatrix in there, for making the tricks last all day. Body Outside Body only lasts for 1 minute.

With Ocular Spell, it's not so bad.
Quicken BOB (heh, BOB), ocular spell out polymorph & giantsize. In round 1 you've got 4 guys with bows that do 8d6 damage and have 68 strength. The only issue is taking a -6 penalty on attacks until you can get up bite of X on the next round.

[Boci]

Now you need to apply chain, but that means that we're under the assumption that metamagic feats stack and do not apply just to the base spell = DM fiat.


Your other points are valid, but what is there to suggests MM doesn't work this way by default? The fact that maximize and empowered are called out specifically not stacking indicates that others would.

[Boci]

I prefer using ocular spell, as you can stick two spells in there.


Okay that cuts down prep time.

1st round: Body outside body.

2nd round: Occular chained hunter's eyes and occular chained bite of the were-bear.

4th round: Chained (draconic)polymprhp.

5th round: Chained greater magic weapon.

Still pretty daunting though.

On the plus side your clones can attack whilst you are buffing everyone, and your party members should be able to benefit from the chained spells too.

Never mind, alternative aproach posted.

[faceroll]

You can combine quicken & ocular. May as well blow your cash on greater rods of quicken, as cool magic items aren't going to do much for your clones. Also, with 20 levels of casting, you've got the slots to cover itemization. Just invest in some scrolls otherwise.

[Boci]

You can combine quicken & ocular. May as well blow your cash on greater rods of quicken, as cool magic items aren't going to do much for your clones. Also, with 20 levels of casting, you've got the slots to cover itemization. Just invest in some scrolls otherwise.

So wu-jen 10 / incantatrix 10 // arcivist 20? Or wizard who adds BOB to his spell list? Probably be easier in the long run, since its 1 spell versus 2 I think. Arcivist makes will make aquiering hunter's eye easy, and makes knowledge devotion an option. Not to mention dark knowledge.

Sources needed:
Core - for wizard and polymorhp
Player's Guide to Faerun - For Incantatrix . Note: you can also use theMagic of Fareun version, but its weaker, plus its 3.0.
Complete Arcane - For Chaining Spell and Body Outside Body and possible Persist Spell
Spell Compendium - For Bite of the Were Bear and Hunter's Eye
Heroes of Horror - For Arcivist
Lords of Madness - For Occular Spell
Complete Champion - For Knowledge Devotion

Do you have access to those OP?

[Dictum Mortuum]

Your other points are valid, but what is there to suggests MM doesn't work this way by default? The fact that maximize and empowered are called out specifically not stacking indicates that others would.

Because, it's not clarified in the rules. I'm not saying I'm against it, but since it's somewhat of a gray area, so it falls under DM judgement.

I'm not talking about "quickened empowered fireball", because that is pretty straightforward and the metamagic feats are interchangeable (i.e. quickened[empowered[spell]] is the same with empowered[quickened[spell]]).

I'm talking about "chained reach touch spell", because you can't apply the metamagic feats, unless you apply them in a specific order (i.e. chained[reach[spell]] and not reach[chained[spell]]).

@faceroll: using ocular spell won't help you with Hunter's Eye, as its range is personal.

[Boci]

@faceroll: using ocular spell won't help you with Hunter's Eye, as its range is personal.

Right you are:


Only ray spells and spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.

But I think he's dropped that from the plan.

[drakir_nosslin]

So wu-jen 10 / incanastrix 10 // arcivist 20? Or wizard who adds BOB to his spell list? Probably be easier in the long run, since its 1 spell versus 2 I think. Arcivist makes will make aquiering hunter's eye easy, and makes knowledge devotion an option. Not to mention dark knowledge.

Sources needed:
Core - for wizard and polymorhp
Player's Guide to Faerun - For Incantatrix . Note: you can also use theMagic of Fareun version, but its weaker, plus its 3.0.
Complete Arcane - For Chaining Spell and Body Outside Body
Spell Compendium - For Bite of the Were Bear and Hunter's Eye
Heroes of Horror - For Arcivist
Lords of Madness - For Occular Spell
Complete Champion - For Knowledge Devotion

Do you have access to those OP?

I was thinking more along the lines of Wu-Jen 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5//Fighter 2/Warblade 8/Eternal Blade 10.

This gives me and all the clones island in time, doubling the number of attacks. I took IncoherentEssay's advice and uses archmage to get BOB as a SLA, giving all the clones it as well.
Fighter is there to give me some archery feats, most notably rapid shot, giving me another attack (which is 5 extra/round when the clones start attacking.)

Eternal Blade gives int to hit and damage against one type of enemies 5/day, negating much of the need for zen archery.

But, yea, I got all those books. :smallsmile:

[Dictum Mortuum]

Read more carefully:


Only ray spells and spells
with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.

@OP: try to get Death Throes from Spell Compendium as spell known and get it as a spell-like ability on your clones. Then they can suicide for CL uncapped d8 force damage in 30ft.

[Boci]

Read more carefully:

Swordsaged you.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Swordsaged you.

ah:smallbiggrin:

[drakir_nosslin]

@OP: try to get Death Throes from Spell Compendium as spell known and get it as a spell-like ability on your clones. Then they can suicide for CL uncapped d8 force damage in 30ft.

Hmm, Extra Spell perhaps, if the DM would allow Wu-Jen to pick from the wizard list as well... Doubtful, but a very, very cool trick!

[faceroll]

Boci-
I'm pretty sure most of this can be done while retaining most of the warblade levels.

Critical pieces are- incantatrix 2, spellguard 4, wyrm wizard 4. Loses 2 caster levels, which can be made up on the warblade side.


Because, it's not clarified in the rules. I'm not saying I'm against it, but since it's somewhat of a gray area, so it falls under DM judgement.

I'm not talking about "quickened empowered fireball", because that is pretty straightforward and the metamagic feats are interchangeable (i.e. quickened[empowered[spell]] is the same with empowered[quickened[spell]]).

I'm talking about "chained reach touch spell", because you can't apply the metamagic feats, unless you apply them in a specific order (i.e. chained[reach[spell]] and not reach[chained[spell]]).

Isn't there a rule somewhere about how you get to choose the order of effects if it's not in the rules?


@faceroll: using ocular spell won't help you with Hunter's Eye, as its range is personal.

Won't help with Giant Size, either.
Welp, just stick some spellguard on there, I guess.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Hmm, Extra Spell perhaps, if the DM would allow Wu-Jen to pick from the wizard list as well... Doubtful, but a very, very cool trick!

There's even a 9th level wu-jen spell that makes you invulnerable for 1 round and then kills you. I don't know if you can get it as a spell-like ability using archmage, but it would be a very nice kill switch.

[drakir_nosslin]

So, a possible build would look something like this. Now, this isn't done in any way, but just so that we all know what we're talking about and what we have to play with...

{table=head]Level | Class | Class | Feat
1 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Iron Will, Precise Shot
2 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Rapid Shot
3 | Wu Jen | Warblade | Quicken Spell
4 | Wu Jen | Warblade |
5 | Wu Jen | Warblade |
6 | Incantatrix | Warblade | Spell Focus: Abjuration
7 | Incantatrix | Warblade |
8 | Incantatrix | Warblade |
9 | Incantatrix | Warblade | Skill Focus: Spellcraft
10 | Incantatrix | Warblade |
11 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
12 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Spell Focus: Conjuration
13 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
14 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
15 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Chain Spell
16 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
17 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
18 | Archmage | Eternal Blade | Extra Spell
19 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
20 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
[/table]

Thoughts? Should I scrap it totally?

[Boci]

Boci-
I'm pretty sure most of this can be done while retaining most of the warblade levels.

Critical pieces are- incantatrix 2, spellguard 4, wyrm wizard 4. Loses 2 caster levels, which can be made up on the warblade side.

Fair enough.


Isn't there a rule somewhere about how you get to choose the order of effects if it's not in the rules?

I'm pretty sure that was a FAQ.


So, a possible build would look something like this. Now, this isn't done in any way, but just so that we all know what we're talking about and what we have to play with...

{table=head]Level | Class | Class | Feat
1 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Iron Will, Precise Shot
2 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Rapid Shot
3 | Wu Jen | Warblade | Quicken Spell
4 | Wu Jen | Warblade |
5 | Wu Jen | Warblade |
6 | Incantatrix | Warblade | Spell Focus: Abjuration
7 | Incantatrix | Warblade |
8 | Incantatrix | Warblade |
9 | Incantatrix | Warblade | Skill Focus: Spellcraft
10 | Incantatrix | Warblade |
11 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
12 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Spell Focus: Conjuration
13 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
14 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
15 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Chain Spell
16 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
17 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
18 | Archmage | Eternal Blade | Extra Spell
19 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
20 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
[/table]

Thoughts? Should I scrap it totally?

Iron will can be gained from for 3,000gp when you book abberants and oozes inc delux hotel room. No seriously, it from complete adventurer.

[Dictum Mortuum]

You can get Iron Will from a magical location that costs ~8000 gp (not sure). Otyugh Hole.

You need Point Blank Shot to get Precise Shot.

Lose Spell Focus (Abjuration) and get it on Transmutation instead.

Don't forget that Incantatrix grants 4 bonus metamagic feats.

[drakir_nosslin]

Boci-
I'm pretty sure most of this can be done while retaining most of the warblade levels.

Critical pieces are- incantatrix 2, spellguard 4, wyrm wizard 4. Loses 2 caster levels, which can be made up on the warblade side.



Isn't there a rule somewhere about how you get to choose the order of effects if it's not in the rules?



Won't help with Giant Size, either.
Welp, just stick some spellguard on there, I guess.

I'm not sure that I can get in spellguard as well, I need to find a way to get in Combat casting.
Besides that, this is starting to look really fun :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I'm not even sure that we need spellguard. Use high arcana to give all clones BOB, bite of the wearbear, hunter's eye and giant size. There you go. The problem now is buffing time though...

[drakir_nosslin]

Iron will can be gained from for 3,000gp when you book abberants and oozes inc delux hotel room. No seriously, it from complete adventurer.


You can get Iron Will from a magical location that costs ~8000 gp (not sure). Otyugh Hole.

You need Point Blank Shot to get Precise Shot.

Lose Spell Focus (Abjuration) and get it on Transmutation instead.

Don't forget that Incantatrix grants 4 bonus metamagic feats.

Otyugh Hole it is, can't believe that I forgot that one...

I meant Point blank shot, not precise, it's the pre-req for rapid.

EDIT: Alternate build...

{table=head]Level | Class | Class | Feat
1 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Extend Spell, Precise Shot
2 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Rapid Shot
3 | Wu Jen | Warblade | Quicken Spell
4 | Wu Jen | Warblade |
5 | Wu Jen | Warblade | Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)
6 | Wyrm Wizard | Warblade | Spell Focus: Transmutation
7 | Wyrm Wizard | Wu Jen |
8 | Wyrm Wizard | Warblade |
9 | Wyrm Wizard | Wu Jen | Skill Focus: Spellcraft
10 | Wyrm Wizard | Warblade |
11 | Wyrm Wizard | Eternal Blade |
12 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Spell Focus: Conjuration
13 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Persist Spell
14 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
15 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Chain Spell
16 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
17 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
18 | Archmage | Eternal Blade | Feat
19 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
20 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
[/table]

[faceroll]

EDIT: I'm not even sure that we need spellguard. Use high arcana to give all clones BOB, bite of the wearbear, hunter's eye and giant size. There you go. The problem now is buffing time though...

Oh, very nice! Elegant!

Cast BOB at beginning of day, have clones use persistent spell on you casting BOB again, get 24 hours of clones? You could, um, probably use all your 7th level slots getting a horde of clones.

Did you take any flaws?
Dual progression of prestige classes isn't a legit thing in gestalt, I don't think. Ask your GM.

[drakir_nosslin]

Oh, very nice! Elegant!

Cast BOB at beginning of day, have clones use persistent spell on you casting BOB again, get 24 hours of clones? You could, um, probably use all your 7th level slots getting a horde of clones.

Did you take any flaws?
Dual progression of prestige classes isn't a legit thing in gestalt, I don't think. Ask your GM.

I haven't used any flaws yet :smallsmile:

We could drop spellguard, add some more wyrm wizard there to get death throes on the spell list as well, negating the need for extra spell, that frees up a feat (and there's no need for a discussion on how Extra spell works) and then use High arcana to give that to the clones.

Still, with spellguard the buffing will be quicker.

And yea, this isn't viable by RAW since I am using two PrC:s at the same time, but most (all?) gestalt games I've been in allows for that to happen. But it does ramp up the cheese level a bit.

EDIT: Without spellguard.

{table=head]Level | Class | Class | Feat
1 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Extend Spell, Precise Shot
2 | Wu Jen | Fighter | Rapid Shot
3 | Wu Jen | Warblade | Quicken Spell
4 | Wu Jen | Warblade |
5 | Wu Jen | Warblade | Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)
6 | Wyrm Wizard | Warblade | Spell Focus: Transmutation
7 | Wyrm Wizard | Wu Jen |
8 | Wyrm Wizard | Warblade |
9 | Wyrm Wizard | Wu Jen | Skill Focus: Spellcraft
10 | Wyrm Wizard | Warblade |
11 | Wyrm Wizard | Eternal Blade |
12 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Spell Focus: Conjuration
13 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Persist Spell
14 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade |
15 | Incantatrix | Eternal Blade | Feat, Chain Spell
16 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
17 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
18 | Archmage | Eternal Blade | Feat
19 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
20 | Archmage | Eternal Blade |
[/table]

We do lose a caster level here, since I must have eternal blade 10 to get island in time.

[Talionis]

See if you can fit some Archmage in there. The duplicates can still use class features, including spell-likes. How silly this 'attack of the clones' gets depends on if the daily use is expended before or after the duplication. Infinite clones isn't quite as effective as it sounds though, their hp plummets pretty quickly to the point where a single hit causes a chain reaction wipe from the 10 dmg feedback.

Immortal Fortitude would allow you and the clones to stay alive with little hit points. And Emerald Immolation allows you to destroy clones arguably without losing hit points since they will/would return they also do damage when they explode. And you can do a ton of damage with that 9th level maneuver from White Raven that allows everyone to charge.

[drakir_nosslin]

Immortal Fortitude would allow you and the clones to stay alive with little hit points. And Emerald Immolation allows you to destroy clones arguably without losing hit points since they will/would return they also do damage when they explode. And you can do a ton of damage with that 9th level maneuver from White Raven that allows everyone to charge.

Immortal fortitude is a really good idea, I'm stealing that :smallwink: Unfortunately there's no room for JPM, and it's a PrC that advances two classes simultaneously, something that's normally disallowed in gestalt.
Warmaster's charge is already in the build, I just never wrote out the maneuvers I was planning.

White raven tactics and time stands still are two important ones, allowing the original to attack a massive amount of times once all the clones are in place. In fact the original could get 25 rounds/round + time stands still + island in time (1/day). That's a lot of spells/attacks...
And that's before we really start optimizing. Since each clone can use BOB twice and each clone-clone can use BOB once that'd give us 164 clones for 8 rounds (can't persist the SLA:s). These clones need to be reduced in size so that they all can fit within 10 ft. of the original which could then benefit from 165 rounds in a single round. That's 990 seconds/second, or 16.5 minutes of actions per 6 seconds. With a full attack each round + rapid shot that'd be 825 attacks in a single round. And if the original uses Time stands still every other round and refreshes it in the next that's another 82 full attacks, giving us a total of 1235 attacks. Nice.

Remember then that this is from a single casting of BOB and no other spells. This build could easily prepare three BOB:s each day, with plenty of room over for other stuff. At 21:st it grabs epic spellcasting and researches spells with insanely high DC:s with the help of aid another and a couple of hundred clones...

[nedz]

They only get mundane versions of your equipment, but they get all of your feats.
This sounds like a job for Vow of Poverty.

[drakir_nosslin]

They only get mundane versions of your equipment, but they get all of your feats.
This sounds like a job for Vow of Poverty.

That sounds like a job for buffs is what I'm thinking. With the amount of spells and metamagic this build can churn out it isn't hard to chain-persist loads of buffs (raise spellcraft and if that isn't enough use clones+aid another to get even higher checks.). But with money you can buy a force bow with the splitting enchantment, doubling the number of ranged attacks for example. In general the VoP isn't worth it, and while spellcasters manage ok with it, they tend to be able to buy better stuff with cash than what you get from money.

Also, the Archmages arcane reach can be used to give touch spells a fixed range, making them eligible for persist.

[Necroticplague]

My memories a bit rusty, but does this explicitely disallow powers to be used? If not, Wu Jen/whatever full casting prcs//psion (telepath)/whatever full manifesting prcs. Take extra power (or whatever the feat is called that lets you take a power cross-dicipline) for astral construct. buffing sequence BoB->Shism->AC. Spend the rest of the night trying to take all of your turns.

[Boci]

My memories a bit rusty, but does this explicitely disallow powers to be used? If not, Wu Jen/whatever full casting prcs//psion (telepath)/whatever full manifesting prcs. Take extra power (or whatever the feat is called that lets you take a power cross-dicipline) for astral construct. buffing sequence BoB->Shism->AC. Spend the rest of the night trying to take all of your turns.

Would the magic-psionics transparency rule ban power use along with spells?

[Soren Hero]

don't know if this helps a whole lot, but i was wondering if you guys have read LoP's Dirty Trick (http://web.archive.org/web/20070717224238/http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-554668) about this particular subject? "Q: What about psionic-magic transparency? Wouldn't that mean that BoB clones can't use psionic powers?
A: There are two approaches to this, both of which result in agreeing that BoB clones should be capable of using psionics.

The first is the "enumerated effects" approach, which Tleilaxu_Ghola expressed nicely. Because the magic-psionics transparency rule has a specific part where it explains how things works mechanically, we have a solid standard. Since loss of power manifesting as a result of spellcasting loss is not one of the facets of the interaction rules, the transparency rule says that manifesting capability and spellcasting capability are functionally independent.

The second approach is to use clear precedent. Consider the mental pinnacle spell in the Expanded Psionics Handbook and SRD. Mental pinnacle gives the character psionic manifesting capability, and then says that "you lose your spellcasting ability." If we were to interpret loss of ability to cast spells as the loss of ability to manifest powers, then this spell would do exactly nothing. Certainly, this single case is not a definitive ruling, but it is a valuable precedent confirming RAW support for the independence of manifesting capability and spellcasting capability."

[The-Mage-King]

Gentlemen, we are forgetting something.


Something called "Iaijutsu Focus"


"But wait!" you say, "Iaijustsu Focus can only be used on flat footed creatures!"


"Indeed!" I reply, and then point out a little thing called "Sapphire Nightmare Blade". Which each clone should have access to, if you have it readied.


That gives you a decent amount of damage, if melee, for a single shot while getting buffs set up.

[nedz]

That sounds like a job for buffs is what I'm thinking. With the amount of spells and metamagic this build can churn out it isn't hard to chain-persist loads of buffs (raise spellcraft and if that isn't enough use clones+aid another to get even higher checks.). But with money you can buy a force bow with the splitting enchantment, doubling the number of ranged attacks for example. In general the VoP isn't worth it, and while spellcasters manage ok with it, they tend to be able to buy better stuff with cash than what you get from money.

Also, the Archmages arcane reach can be used to give touch spells a fixed range, making them eligible for persist.

In general I would agree, but we are talking about multiples of VoP so the relationship is more like:
n x VoP > WBL > VoP
This is even more pronounced when WBL is close to zero for (n-1)

The problem with buffs is that they take time and therefore actions. Even with Timestop and Quicken you can only pump out so many; even then:
Buffs+Vop > Buffs.
BoB is a standard action, so with VoP you can just cast and go. BoB also only has a fixed duration of 1 minute, so no time to prep anyway.
There doesn't seem to be anything stopping you spamming BoB either; sounds like an interesting use of Extra Spell for a Sorceror.

[Psyren]

Would the magic-psionics transparency rule ban power use along with spells?

Not technically, though I personally think it should.

Maneuvers are definitely safe though, so a Wu Jen/Warblade/JPM could have all of its clones know martial arts.

[Necroticplague]

My memories a bit rusty, but does this explicitely disallow powers to be used? If not, Wu Jen/whatever full casting prcs//psion (telepath)/whatever full manifesting prcs. Take extra power (or whatever the feat is called that lets you take a power cross-dicipline) for astral construct. buffing sequence BoB->Shism->AC. Spend the rest of the night trying to take all of your turns.

Actually, improving this, use fission then schism.

[Little Brother]

Here's a build for you. It's based on the chassis of my rework(still in progress) to get record damage.

Wyrm of War Dragonwrought Kobold
Ardent 1/Disciplined StP Erudite 3/Cerebromancer 7/Mystic Ranger 4/Psychic Theurge 3/Mystic Ranger 2

Magic Mantle and Focused Disciple (Magic)

No need for Gestalt. With Giant Size, it makes you a flat Colossal, so you being small is fine. You are also still Tiny, which is nice.

Now worship an Elder Evil. You now have nine bonus feats and access to PsiRef, so you can switch them around at will. Take Arcane Devotee/Disciple/whatever it's called as you see fit, I'd pick up the domain that gives you Divine Power, and the Spite domain. You can know any arcane spell, so you know Giant Size and Transcend Immortality. Abuse whatever swift action spells/powers you can, and otherwise be a Zen Archer. You have Hunter's Mercy, so I'm sure you'll be loving your crits.

You really can't go wrong with this build, TBH.

Oh, BTW, take Supernatural Transformation on your psionics. You win the universe.