Quad 9's

[molten_dragon]

Big Teej's thread on triple nines got me thinking about this. I'm wondering if it's possible to get 9th level arcane spells, 9th level divine spells, 9th level psionic powers, and 9th level maneuvers.

Just so we have a framework to build within, let's restrict material to any WotC official source except dungeon and dragon magazines.

Can it be done in 20 levels?

If not, what's the lowest level you could pull it off at?

[Eldan]

The maneuvers could probably be done with feats, if you count that... take at triple-nine build stick on four or five times Martial Study, that should take you there.

[TroubleBrewing]

Aren't triple-9 builds traditionally pretty feat-starved? I mean, excepting Shun/Embrace shenanigans, you'd need to find a triple-9 build that only uses 2 of it's 7 (if human) feats for the spells/powers.

[drakir_nosslin]

The maneuvers could probably be done with feats, if you count that... take at triple-nine build stick on four or five times Martial Study, that should take you there.

Stone Dragon 9 has no pre-reqs, if you have the initiator lvl it's enough to get that feat once.

[molten_dragon]

The maneuvers could probably be done with feats, if you count that... take at triple-nine build stick on four or five times Martial Study, that should take you there.

Don't you still have to meet martial adept level pre-reqs with martial study? That would limit you to 5th level and lower maneuvers. To pull off 9th level, you'd need to get your martial adept level up to at least 17, and that would mean taking an actual martial adept class (or prestige class that gave you 1:1 class level:adept level)

[Eldan]

Oh, true. I forgot that part.

Can you fit Ur Priest, Sublime Chord, dual-casters and Jade Phoenix mage in the same build?

[Hirax]

You'd need prcs and dual progression casters on both sides.

Crusader8/ur-priest2/RKV10//psion8/bard2/sublime chord1/cerebremancer9

You'd need to use shenanigans to meet sublime chord's requirement of being able to cast 3rd level spells, though

[drakir_nosslin]

You'd need prcs and dual progression casters on both sides.

Crusader8/ur-priest2/RKV10//psion8/bard2/sublime chord1/cerebremancer9

You'd need to use shenanigans to meet sublime chord's requirement of being able to cast 3rd level spells, though

I thought this wasn't gestalt?? With gestalt it shouldn't be too hard.

[Hirax]

Reading comprehension fail for me. No, not possible, even with extreme shenanigans, unless, as mentioned, you count 9th level maneuvers gained from martial study.

[drakir_nosslin]

Reading comprehension fail for me. No, not possible, even with extreme shenanigans, unless, as mentioned, you count 9th level maneuvers gained from martial study.

And even then I'd be hard to get the IL high enough. Maybe by using bloodlines and a single level of initiator? That'd get them up to IL 12, I think... Still not enough.

[Eldan]

I've been throwing around a few builds in my head... getting IL up is difficult. You need 14 levels in initiator classes, so you get something like Crusader 4/Urpriest X/RKV 10, which, while powerful, isn't very friendly to more than double nines.

No, I don't think it can be done outside of gestalt. In gestalt, it shouldn't be difficult if you can get a DM to allow dual-casting classes.

[Morph Bark]

For the maneuvers, you take a Major Bloodline. It increases your class level for each class for just about anything dependant on your class level by 3, including initiator level, allowing you to easily access 9th-level maneuvers (at least Stone Dragon) by the end.

It would be harder if you wanted 9th-level Mysteries instead of maneuvers, though easier if you took 9th-level Mysteries in place of psionics.

[molten_dragon]

I've been throwing around a few builds in my head... getting IL up is difficult. You need 14 levels in initiator classes, so you get something like Crusader 4/Urpriest X/RKV 10, which, while powerful, isn't very friendly to more than double nines.

No, I don't think it can be done outside of gestalt. In gestalt, it shouldn't be difficult if you can get a DM to allow dual-casting classes.

Well, RKV and JPM can be entered without taking any martial classes, you just need maneuvers/stances, so that could be pulled off with feats. So ur-priest 1/RKV 10/JPM 4 would take care of your initiator level, as well as 8 levels of divine casting and 3 of arcane casting.

[faceroll]

Hatchling phaerimm with LA buy off gets us CL 20 sorcerer casting as a racial ability.

Ardent4/Crusader1/Ur Priest1/Psychic Theurge 9/RKV5
Use sanctum spell to enter psychic theurge early. Use Practiced Manifester to get a higher ML for powers known.

You get:
Ardent powers of 9th level with ML 17
Ur Priest casting 9th level spells with a CL of 14
6th level maneuvers known with an IL of 12
Casting as a 20th level sorcerer.

If there was a psionic martial adept class out there, quad 9s would be no problem.

[TroubleBrewing]

Impressive work, faceroll.

If we stretch the boundaries just slightly, I'm sure there's a psionic initiator class somewhere in the 'brew forum.

[Morph Bark]

Impressive work, faceroll.

If we stretch the boundaries just slightly, I'm sure there's a psionic initiator class somewhere in the 'brew forum.

If we go 'brew, it becomes super easy.

I mean hey, I recently made this bugger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11902190). :smalltongue:


What is the LA/RHD on a Phaerimm and where is it from? Admittably I forgot about Ardent. That makes the psionics side incredibly easy.

[Eldan]

Several, actually, from what I remember. Krimm probably made one, or TDO.

[faceroll]

What is the LA/RHD on a Phaerimm and where is it from? Admittably I forgot about Ardent. That makes the psionics side incredibly easy.

Lost Empires of Faerun. 1 RHD (replaced with class level), 2 LA.

[Alleran]

Hatchling phaerimm with LA buy off gets us CL 20 sorcerer casting as a racial ability.

Ardent4/Crusader1/Ur Priest1/Psychic Theurge 9/RKV5
Use sanctum spell to enter psychic theurge early. Use Practiced Manifester to get a higher ML for powers known.

You get:
Ardent powers of 9th level with ML 17
Ur Priest casting 9th level spells with a CL of 14
6th level maneuvers known with an IL of 12
Casting as a 20th level sorcerer.

If there was a psionic martial adept class out there, quad 9s would be no problem.
So how far into epic levels would we have to go in order to get the 6th level up to 9th?

[Tr011]

So how far into epic levels would we have to go in order to get the 6th level up to 9th?

I think you need lvl 25 for 9th (IL 17 is necessary). So you just max out RKV.

[dextercorvia]

Hatchling phaerimm with LA buy off gets us CL 20 sorcerer casting as a racial ability.

Ardent4/Crusader1/Ur Priest1/Psychic Theurge 9/RKV5
Use sanctum spell to enter psychic theurge early. Use Practiced Manifester to get a higher ML for powers known.

You get:
Ardent powers of 9th level with ML 17
Ur Priest casting 9th level spells with a CL of 14
6th level maneuvers known with an IL of 12
Casting as a 20th level sorcerer.

If there was a psionic martial adept class out there, quad 9s would be no problem.

You don't have the saves you need for Ur-Priest.

[Morph Bark]

Actually, he does have the saves for Ur-Priest. It requires both Fort+3 and Will+3. Crusader has good Fort, Ardent has good Will. 3 levels in one and 1 in the other would qualify for the saves part.


Lost Empires of Faerun. 1 RHD (replaced with class level), 2 LA.

In that case:

Phaerim Ardent 1/Crusader 3/Cleric 1/Ur-Priest 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Ardent +1
17 class levels, LA+2.

You lose the cleric casting, but not the Turn Undead. You take Iron Will at level 1, Spell Focus (Evil) at level 3 (the feat does not require you to have casting) and Practiced Manifester 4 times (level 6, 9, 12, 15).

You get: 9th-level powers, 9th-level divine casting, 9th-level arcane casting (via Phaerimm), 8th-level maneuvers (initiator level 15).

You have one level left; three with LA buy-off. If you use any Bloodline (minor, moderate or major) you get to 9th-level maneuvers earlier. With a Major Bloodline you also need to take Practiced Manifester only 3 times.

EDIT: the only problem is making some of the Ur-Priest prequisite skills class skills, this is why Cleric is in there. (Cloistered Cleric obviously!)

[dextercorvia]

Actually, he does have the saves for Ur-Priest. It requires both Fort+3 and Will+3. Crusader has good Fort, Ardent has good Will. 3 levels in one and 1 in the other would qualify for the saves part.

Clearly I was posting too early in my morning.

[vampire2948]

'course it is possible.

By RAW:

Exalted Phaerimm Erudite 18
Spend all feats for Martial Maneuvers, should be able to get a ninth or two.

Use 'Channel Greater Celestial' on a Solar to gain all Cleric spells known, or go the evil route and just learn them as erudite spells.

Would be better if there were Psion - Martial theurge classes.


EDIT : Phaerimm get sorceror casting as their HD. May have gotten the RHD wrong, however. Since I cannot seem to locate their stats in my books at present.

[Morph Bark]

'course it is possible.

By RAW:

Exalted Phaerimm Erudite 18
Spend all feats for Martial Maneuvers, should be able to get a ninth or two.

Use 'Channel Greater Celestial' on a Solar to gain all Cleric spells known, or go the evil route and just learn them as erudite spells.

How long does Channel Greater Celestial last? It would need to be at least 9 hours for you to rest and prepare the Cleric spells.

Learning them as Erudite "spells" makes them psionic powers, not spells. :smallwink:

[VarianArdell]

How long does Channel Greater Celestial last? It would need to be at least 9 hours for you to rest and prepare the Cleric spells.

and where, good sir, does it say that a cleric need rest before preparing spells?

[faceroll]

'course it is possible.

By RAW:

Exalted Phaerimm Erudite 18
Spend all feats for Martial Maneuvers, should be able to get a ninth or two.

Use 'Channel Greater Celestial' on a Solar to gain all Cleric spells known, or go the evil route and just learn them as erudite spells.

Would be better if there were Psion - Martial theurge classes.


EDIT : Phaerimm get sorceror casting as their HD. May have gotten the RHD wrong, however. Since I cannot seem to locate their stats in my books at present.

With an initiator level of 9, you're not getting 9th level maneuvers, regardless of how many feats you get.

[Morph Bark]

and where, good sir, does it say that a cleric need rest before preparing spells?

Always presumed all casters needed to, but alright. Does it last at least 1 hour?

[vampire2948]

Always presumed all casters needed to, but alright. Does it last at least 1 hour?

10 mins per caster level. So you'd probably want to extend it with a rod, at least.


With an initiator level of 9, you're not getting 9th level maneuvers, regardless of how many feats you get.

Curses! Pesky IL. Need to be more Psionic-Initiator theurges :(

[Morph Bark]

Finally got a chance to actually take a look at the Phaerimm. A hatchling never gets casting beyond 1st level Sorcerer without taking Sorcerer levels. Its Sorcerer casting, like that of true dragons, is based on its Racial HD, not including class levels other than Sorcerer.

As such, that bars it from use, otherwise my entry would be the sole qualifying one so far. :smallfrown:

[vampire2948]

Finally got a chance to actually take a look at the Phaerimm. A hatchling never gets casting beyond 1st level Sorcerer without taking Sorcerer levels. Its Sorcerer casting, like that of true dragons, is based on its Racial HD, not including class levels other than Sorcerer.

As such, that bars it from use, otherwise my entry would be the sole qualifying one so far. :smallfrown:

Hooray for misremembering.
Ignore everything I wrote in this thread, then.

[faceroll]

Finally got a chance to actually take a look at the Phaerimm. A hatchling never gets casting beyond 1st level Sorcerer without taking Sorcerer levels. Its Sorcerer casting, like that of true dragons, is based on its Racial HD, not including class levels other than Sorcerer.

As such, that bars it from use, otherwise my entry would be the sole qualifying one so far. :smallfrown:

"Spells: A phaerimm casts arcane
spells as a sorcerer (caster level
equals phaerimm’s character level).
Phaerimms use their sorcerer spells
as if they were spell-like abilities, so
they require no verbal, somatic, or
material components"

[dextercorvia]

"Spells: A phaerimm casts arcane
spells as a sorcerer (caster level
equals phaerimm’s character level).
Phaerimms use their sorcerer spells
as if they were spell-like abilities, so
they require no verbal, somatic, or
material components"

That advances caster level, does anything advance their Spell progression?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Hatchling phaerimm with LA buy off gets us CL 20 sorcerer casting as a racial ability.fail


Its Sorcerer casting, like that of true dragons, is based on its Racial HDwin

NonGestalt, 9th level manuevers (any list), 9th level cleric casting, 9th level sorc/wiz casting, 9th level psion manifesting? Been there done th

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Loredrake Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Sorcerer would help excel the arcane side of things. Use Ur-Priest with Mystic Theurge to cover Arcane/Divine. On the other side of things of the gestalt, you could wing things like Psion with either Soul Manifestor, a redone Jade Pheonix Mage, and/or a redone Binder.


Really depends on which 9s you want, and how far you can stretch things.

[Morph Bark]

"Spells: A phaerimm casts arcane
spells as a sorcerer (caster level
equals phaerimm’s character level).
Phaerimms use their sorcerer spells
as if they were spell-like abilities, so
they require no verbal, somatic, or
material components"

I see. That works then, unless we don't count SLAs. If we do count SLAs, we need to figure out where we draw the line. Do (Su) abilities that copy spells and powers count? If so, a Binder/Cleric/Tenebrous Apostate can get real far with Abysm and Zceryll (though you could count Zceryll as being divine since summon monster is both a Wizard and a Cleric spell). Counting SLAs as arcane could work, I suppose, since Warlocks and DFAs are both arcane. Even if you'd count Zceryll for the arcane part, you'd have trouble with the initiator levels though.

So with that, I'll update my build, trying to see if there is anything wrong with it.

Race: Hatchling Phaerimm
Ability scores (15 point buy): Str 2 (-6 racial), Dex 14 (+6 racial), Con 8 (+0 racial), Int 16 (+0 racial, 10 points), Wis 19 (+2 racial, 5 points, 4 from levels), Cha 10 (+2 racial)
Classes: Cloistered Cleric of Wee Jas 1/Crusader 3/Ardent 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/Ur-Priest 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator +9/Ardent +1
Cleric domains: Knowledge and [something from Wee Jas].
17 class levels, LA+2.

Note: Due to them being spell-like abilities, the sorcerer spells the Phaerimm "casts" have no minimum Cha requirement. I also assumed no LA buy-off and the lowest point buy generally used. I also did not assume there would be any Manuals or Tomes available.

Feats: Iron Will (level 1), Spell Focus (Evil) or Malign Spell Focus (level 3), Practiced Manifester (levels 6, 9, 12 and 15).

Note: I haven't statted him beyond level 19 without LA buy-off. With one extra level, he gets one more feat. This should go into Weapon Finesse unless he buffs himself up with spells enough to mitigate his low Str. I also assumed no Flaws. With Flaws, getting two more feats, he could take Extend Spell, Persistent Spell and DMM: Persist.

Skills at level 5: Bluff 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.

Note: This was a hard part and why the Cleric has Knowledge and Trickery domains. I don't know how others play, but I usually play with the houserule "once it is a class skill, it is always a class skill", but I won't use it here. I will, however, use the houserule (which I think many people also use) that "once it is a class skill for any of your classes, the maximum ranks in that skill is [character level] +3", because struggling with multiclassing is such a hassle. Considering I assumed minimum point buy, no flaws and no LA buy-off so far, I think this is reasonable. If you don't think so, we can always add LA buy-off and add some Cleric levels to up those skills. I am also using magic/psionics transparancy, so Psicraft is counted as Spellcraft. Another problem is that there aren't errata for Complete Psionics, so the Ardent has "Knowledge" on his skill list and I'm not sure if it is meant to be all of them or just psionics (or psionics and religion). I will assume all of them, just like with the Psion.

He starts at level 1 with Bluff 2 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks and Spellcraft 4 ranks.
Crusader 3 adds Knowledge (religion) +3 ranks (total 7), Hide 4 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) +1 rank (total 5), Bluff +2 ranks (total 4).
Ardent 1 adds Knowledge (religion) +1 rank (total 8) and Spellcraft +4 ranks (total 8).

So at level 5 he has all the requirements necessary for Ruby Knight Vindicator. He still needs 2 ranks in Bluff for Ur-Priest, which he can get from Ruby Knight Vindicator.

You got one level left that you have to put into either an initiator PrC (or Crusader) or a class that gets a bonus feat that can be Martial Study. So either Crusader or Fighter.

Pros: Gets quadruple 9s, without LA buy-off, without Flaws, with minimum point buy and isn't item-dependant.
Cons: Requires magic/psionics transparency and a headache-preventing rule/houserule regarding maximum skill ranks.
Con-cons: With one extra Cleric level, the cons can be worked away if you take the second Cleric level after Ardent.

[Tyndmyr]

Aren't triple-9 builds traditionally pretty feat-starved? I mean, excepting Shun/Embrace shenanigans, you'd need to find a triple-9 build that only uses 2 of it's 7 (if human) feats for the spells/powers.

Eh, chaos shuffle fixes most of that.

[ahenobarbi]

Did you mean Triple Cheeseburger with Onions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16939250&postcount=23)?