Go

[Qwertystop]

Can someone help me learn to play Go (the chinese board game)?

I have book of rules, but it's a bit unclear. For example, I usually end up making a huge line that, when added to 2 of the side walls, ends up as a large loop that controls about a third of the board. Does that count as my having those spaces, for the purpose of scoring? And does that mean that at the end, all my opponent's pieces in that area are dead-as-they-stand, assuming I have a second loop connected to that huge one?

[Brother Oni]

The wikipedia page for Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28game%29#Detailed_description) has some useful tips for scoring, which seems to be your issue.

That said:



For example, I usually end up making a huge line that, when added to 2 of the side walls, ends up as a large loop that controls about a third of the board. Does that count as my having those spaces, for the purpose of scoring?


It depends on whether the other side has any pieces inside the loop that you can't take, otherwise known as 'eyes'. The Life and death section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_and_death) covers this quite well, thus even if you have a large chunk of the board 'controlled' by your line, their little defensive spot is their territory.
This makes every point between your line of stones and their eye, contested territory, thus doesn't count for either side when scoring.

Note that for an eye to be completely impregnable, there needs to be two of them connected (see the Life and death page again), so if they only manage to get one up before you block them off, that group is dead and the territory is yours at the end of the game.

Edit: If you're teaching yourself the game, then this tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gECcsSeRcNo) might be of some use.

[Qwertystop]

advice and links

So if they have a two-eye unit inside my (two-eye) loop, nothing else in that area counts? Thanks.

[Tirian]

So if they have a two-eye unit inside my (two-eye) loop, nothing else in that area counts? Thanks.

Any territory that is touching a living white group and a living black group is dame even if it is all "inside" one of those groups. So you'd only get credit for your eyes and other properly unadulterated territory like that.

Like most tricky questions in go, it doesn't often come up in real games. Once you get sufficiently good at the game, you'd never surround central territory and then let your opponent live inside you.

[Qwertystop]

Like most tricky questions in go, it doesn't often come up in real games. Once you get sufficiently good at the game, you'd never surround central territory and then let your opponent live inside you.

In my case, it's more that the only other person I know who plays tends to make small loops, and doesn't manage to block my large loops. We had both thought that if there was a large loop surrounding a small one (both have 2 eyes), then anything inside both gave points to whoever had the innermost one, and anything in the larger one that wasn't in the smaller one gave points to whoever had the larger one. I pretty much aimed to get the big loops because I thought it gave me lots of points.

[blueblade]

I think you may be missing the point that you both continue to play for as long as you have a useful move to make. That move can be either:

-Securing one of your own areas
OR
- Attacking an opponents area, by either creating a two-eye structure inside it, or by connecting it to a safe chain.

So if you have made a line horizontally across the board, and your opponent chooses to pass his turn rather than play inside it, then all of that area belongs to you. In beginner play, that might happen now and then, but in more experienced play, if you claim too much territory in such a way, your opponent is going to play inside there and make a safe chain, denying you valuable points. A key element of Go is judging whether the territory you are carving out is large enough to matter, but tight enough to be controlled.

[blueblade]

...and anything in the larger one that wasn't in the smaller one gave points to whoever had the larger one. I pretty much aimed to get the big loops because I thought it gave me lots of points.

Answering this part: If you have an area which looks something like zone F:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Gofin.png/200px-Gofin.png

Then, as mentioned previously, it is Dame, so they belong to neither of you. Think of it this way: If your opponent could safely (by starting from his own chain) fill it in and deny you the territory, then it didn't really belong to you!

[Eldan]

Or, in the loop inside loop situation:


WWWWWWW
W.....W
W.BBB.W
W.B.B.W
W.BBB.W
W.B.B.W
W.BBB.W
W.....W
WWWWWWW

Note: silly situation. Likely won't come up.

Here, black has two eyes, but is completely inside a white loop. The spaces surrounding the black loop, however, don't belong to anyone.

Why? Because black could place a stone on any of these spaces, and that stone would be safe. Therefore, white does not have control over them.

[pasko77]

It is extremely hard to learn without direct tutoring. I had a hard time learning the game by myself, and it was a relief when I finally found someone near my area to teach me.

So, and I speak for personal experience, search a club or something, where they play go. It will make things easier.

[Brother Oni]

It is extremely hard to learn without direct tutoring. I had a hard time learning the game by myself, and it was a relief when I finally found someone near my area to teach me.

Alternately, a rulebook and copious amounts of Hikaru no Go. :smalltongue:

There's also The Path of Go on X-box Live that gives a decent tutorial and gives a hard game (for me anyway) on a 9x9 board. Any larger board than that and the game AI falls down significantly.

[Qwertystop]

Or, in the loop inside loop situation:


WWWWWWW
W.....W
W.BBB.W
W.B.B.W
W.BBB.W
W.B.B.W
W.BBB.W
W.....W
WWWWWWW

Note: silly situation. Likely won't come up.

Here, black has two eyes, but is completely inside a white loop. The spaces surrounding the black loop, however, don't belong to anyone.

Why? Because black could place a stone on any of these spaces, and that stone would be safe. Therefore, white does not have control over them.

The situation I was talking about generally had more of a gap between the inside and outside loops.

Thanks, everyone!

[Eldan]

Of course. That's a very generalized example and it won't ever happen like that (quite a few of the black stones are superfluous). But even if the gap was, say, five spaces wide, black could still put stones there and connect them to something living.

Generally, you count a space as "yours" if your enemy can't put a living formation into it. If that would still be possible, it's at least potentially conflicted.

[pasko77]

Alternately, a rulebook and copious amounts of Hikaru no Go. :smalltongue:



Believe it or not, it is thanks to Hikaru if I found a small community of go players in my town. :smallbiggrin:

[Brother Oni]

Believe it or not, it is thanks to Hikaru if I found a small community of go players in my town. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, I believe it. I always wanted to learn and watching it gave me the final impetus to knuckle down and learn it.

Well that plus a holiday to Japan where I found a travel Go set and book of Go puzzles. :smalltongue:

[Math_Mage]

HnG led to a Go Renaissance worldwide. (I kinda feel hipster saying I started playing Go before I found out about the series.)

Part of the problem with learning to play Go is that so much of it is implied. A group may appear entirely unmolested and still be dead, but over the course of the game its death often will never be actually played out. And the difference between territory that's actually yours (opponent can't form a living group inside it) and territory you merely think is yours is something that can't actually be seen without playing out dozens of moves--but you're supposed to know which it is long before then.

To expand somewhat on the Eldan example, the white loop doesn't control any territory inside the loop because if you play out what happens in that area, it would look something like this:


WWWWWWW
WWBWBWW
WBBBBWW
WBB.BWW
WWBBBBW
WBB.BWW
WWBBBBW
WWBBWBW
WWWWWWW

In a real game, this is just taken for granted and never played out.

On the other hand, if you're looking at a 9x9 board, this White loop does control both sides of the board, as there's no way Black can make a living group on either edge. The complete board looks something like this:

.WWWWWWW.
.WWBWBWW.
.WBBBBWW.
.WBB.BWW.
.WWBBBBW.
.WBB.BWW.
.WWBBBBW.
.WWBBWBW.
.WWWWWWW.

This is, of course, a very unlikely outcome. And on a 19x19 board, you have no such control.