Zceryll without Binder?

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I was working on a conjuration specialized wizard a while back and recently found this vestige. The ability to freely summon creatures from the summon monster list and add a template to them without cost is very enticing.
I've run into a snag, however. The PrC's I'm interested in require spell casting specialization and, as such, can't sacrifice any wizard levels (there are very few in the build) and cannot really sacrifice PrC levels if I want to keep the character at a decent power level.

With this in mind, is there a way to bind a 6th level Vestige without levels in Binder, or with very few?

Without taking levels in Binder, how do you augment your Binder check?

Thanks.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Binder 1/Wizard X/Anima Mage 10/ Legacy champion advancing Anima Mage's dual advancement?

[Flickerdart]

You don't need Binder levels to enter Anima Mage, curiously enough.

[Morph Bark]

You don't need Binder levels to enter Anima Mage, curiously enough.

Which is indeed curious as it advances the soul binding class feature of the Binder, not any of the binding-granting feats.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Anima Mage is cool, but I was really looking forward to finally testing out a Circle Magic wielding Malconvoker. I mean, there's pretty much no way to get 7 levels of Anima Mage (with Improved Bind Vestige feat) and 7 levels of Malconkover AND 5 levels of Red Wizard.

Is there any way I can do all three?

Should I bother with trying to do all three?

For a conjurer, is this Vestige idea better than levels in Red Wizard and Master Specialist?

[gbprime]

Red Wizard is never worth it, IMO, but Focussed Specialist is an excellent buy.

Binding vestiges over level 3 takes a significant investment in Binder/Anima Mage. If you don't want to spend those levels, skip vestiges entirely. If you want the pseudonatural template, check out the Alienist PrC.

[Urpriest]

I think you can get circle magic in fewer levels (though later in your career) via Halruuan Elder, and/or Hathran. But someone should check.

[Morph Bark]

Anima Mage is cool, but I was really looking forward to finally testing out a Circle Magic wielding Malconvoker. I mean, there's pretty much no way to get 7 levels of Anima Mage (with Improved Bind Vestige feat) and 7 levels of Malconkover AND 5 levels of Red Wizard.

Is there any way I can do all three?

Should I bother with trying to do all three?

For a conjurer, is this Vestige idea better than levels in Red Wizard and Master Specialist?

What is Red Wizard supposed to add here? Your Malconvoking will not be improved in any way by using Circle Magic.

If you can use the Dark Chaos Shuffle (cheese) you can start with Binder 1/Wizard 1/Anima Mage 9 with Improved Binding to get Zceryll, then go into Malconvoker.

[Person_Man]

In my opinion, a strait Binder 20 (or Binder/PrC that does not give up effective Binder levels) is actually one of the best pure Summoner builds there is (once you get access to Zceryll). Remember, your effective Sorcerer level for Zceryll is based on your Binder level. So if you give up Binder levels to mix in Wizard or whatever, you're giving up (or delaying) access to higher level Summons.

Also, don't overlook the fact that the Binder also gets access to Desharis, which gives you Animate Objects at will once every 5 rounds, which is amazing for nanobots builds. (Each object can Aid Another every turn, giving you an untyped bonus to most checks). And/or Haures, which gives you Mind Blank, Incorporeal Movement, Phantasamal Killer, and Major Image at will once every 5 rounds. And by default the Binder gets a scaled bonus to Initiative (or various other things, up to +10) which is wildly important for high level play.

[Coidzor]

Bind Vestige + Improved Binding + some other feat can make it so that with 3 feats you bind as a binder of somewhere between 5th and 7th level, but you can only get one ability without an additional feat, IIRC.

This likely won't work to do what you want though.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

In my opinion, a strait Binder 20 (or Binder/PrC that does not give up effective Binder levels) is actually one of the best pure Summoner builds there is (once you get access to Zceryll). Remember, your effective Sorcerer level for Zceryll is based on your Binder level. So if you give up Binder levels to mix in Wizard or whatever, you're giving up (or delaying) access to higher level Summons.


It doesn't actually say this by RAW. It states "You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could". It never explicitly states it is based on Binder level, simply level (ie. character level).
It even continues to states levels 10 and 14 later, but never says "a binder of 10th level" or "a Binder of 14th level".


What is Red Wizard supposed to add here? Your Malconvoking will not be improved in any way by using Circle Magic.

If you can use the Dark Chaos Shuffle (cheese) you can start with Binder 1/Wizard 1/Anima Mage 9 with Improved Binding to get Zceryll, then go into Malconvoker.

Mostly some free metamagic and such none-sense. It's not really critical, I suppose, but I feel Circle Magic and a free metamagic feat is a nice gain for the character.


Bind Vestige + Improved Binding + some other feat can make it so that with 3 feats you bind as a binder of somewhere between 5th and 7th level, but you can only get one ability without an additional feat, IIRC.

This likely won't work to do what you want though.

This would do fine. I only want the one ability. Does the third feat exist or is this simply a hypothetical? If it does can you name it?

[Flickerdart]

Bind Vestige gains you the ability of a 1st level Binder, Improved Vestige upgrades that to 5th level Binding. However, as you do not actually have the Soul Binding class feature (as Bind Vestige states several times) you cannot take Improved Binding for another +2.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Bind Vestige gains you the ability of a 1st level Binder, Improved Vestige upgrades that to 5th level Binding. However, as you do not actually have the Soul Binding class feature (as Bind Vestige states several times) you cannot take Improved Binding for another +2.

Ya, Improved Bind Vestige is the best I can get, and that still leaves me 7 effective Binding levels short.

In the end I'm feeling it's just not worth it. It's nice to have free minions to toss around, but if the sacrifice is giving up summoning stronger minions and keeping them long, then it's a trade I can't make.

I'll stick with summoning monsters, some Malconkover deceptions and the summon elemental feat.

I can't see anyway of accomplishing this without a relatively high level and feat investment.

[Coidzor]

This would do fine. I only want the one ability. Does the third feat exist or is this simply a hypothetical? If it does can you name it?

Practiced Binder + Bind Vestige + Improved Bind Vestige gets 2 abilities as a 5th level binder. Improved Binding treats you as a binder 2 levels higher for purposes of the vestiges you can bind and nothing else, but upon checking requires Soul Binding. So wouldn't be able to tell you if the ability to bind souls as a binder of X level counts, as it's not calling for the class feature explicitly. So close enough you have a fair chance with asking your DM.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Practiced Binder + Bind Vestige + Improved Bind Vestige gets 2 abilities as a 5th level binder. Improved Binding treats you as a binder 2 levels higher for purposes of the vestiges you can bind and nothing else, but upon checking requires Soul Binding. So wouldn't be able to tell you if the ability to bind souls as a binder of X level counts, as it's not calling for the class feature explicitly. So close enough you have a fair chance with asking your DM.

Unfortunately it doesn't count. In the Bind Vestige feat, it makes it quite clear (often repeating) that you do not have the Soul Binding class feature.
It would be a good plan, but it would leave me about 5 effective Binder levels short. I could swap out my levels in Red Wizard for Anima Mage at that point, but no sooner, as there are no other levels to spare.

Is there another way to get yourself up to 7th+ effective Binding level without class levels/by feats/equipment/spells?

[cagemarrow]

Binder is one of my favorite classes and at higher levels can easily keep up with most classes.

In the most recent campaign I was in my Binder Jacob was the most versatile and powerful character in the party. He survived the entire Red Hand of Doom campaign without dying and made it to 14th level, EBL 18, to gain SM IX once every 4 rounds. That's free heals, Wizard or Cleric Spells 6th level and lower, raise dead and Reincarnate from spell-like abilities, and with a little work to boost Wisdom checks Symbol (Any) as a spell-like ability.

The campaign ended when the DM put us up against a 16th level sorcerer, a mid level cleric, and an advanced spell stitched Dust Wight at us which turned the whole party to stone with its petrification aura. DC 24 fort wasn't high enough to make the save and we didn't get a Knowledge: Religion or Arcana check to know what it's aura did besides slow us down. I think the DM was just trying to end the campaign as he petitioned to switch to an E6 game rather than continue on with new characters.

I don't think there is any way to get Zceryll without actual levels in Binder. If you want to become a summoner I would highly recommend going straight binder, or doing the anima mage/Legacy Champion route, with bloodlines if you can swing it to boost your Effective Binder Level as high as possible. Effective Binder level does affect the level of your summons, per the Binder vestige ability rules at the begining of the vestiges section, pg 19 of Tome of Magic.


• If a supernatural ability granted by a vestige mimics the effect of a spell or shadow magic mystery, the caster level of that ability is always equal to a binder’s effective binder level.

Here's some info I put together and originally posted on Brilliant Gameologists' forums.


Well for those who are interested here's the public Google doc's link. I'll continue to update it and if people have suggestions please let me know.


Zceryll's Psuedonatural Summon Monster List
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1qzF3oIZ73Iy6nalb1e3e2zAtniAqfPbdpsZs6nidkP 0

Got a couple of more docs that people may find useful.

Plant Material that a Djinni can create using its Permanent Major Creation
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aiyz5iDSM5rddG5Ud0NFeXFwUUxhLW9UNHZSNFd0a Wc&hl=en_US
Document has been updated 10/17/2011

A Consolidated list of the Binder Vestiges, powers granted and bind dcs
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0Byyz5iDSM5rdZDE0ZmIzN2YtNmVhMC00ZmQzLTk3NGM tNDA3MTExNDYwODg1&hl=en_US

[Person_Man]

It doesn't actually say this by RAW. It states "You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could". It never explicitly states it is based on Binder level, simply level (ie. character level).
It even continues to states levels 10 and 14 later, but never says "a binder of 10th level" or "a Binder of 14th level".

Um, ok. Does your DM read it that way? Would you allow your players to use it that way? Zceryll is already the most powerful vestige out there, and is probably one of the most powerful class features in general. Basically giving someone full caster progression up to 9th level spells for only 10 levels of Binder and a feat does not seem to be the intent of the vestige.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Effective Binder level does affect the level of your summons, per the Binder vestige ability rules at the begining of the vestiges section, pg 19 of Tome of Magic.


There we go. I was looking for something like this. Thank you; I missed it during my last read.


Um, ok. Does your DM read it that way? Would you allow your players to use it that way? Zceryll is already the most powerful vestige out there, and is probably one of the most powerful class features in general. Basically giving someone full caster progression up to 9th level spells for only 10 levels of Binder and a feat does not seem to be the intent of the vestige.

No, I agree with you. I have no DM atm; it's just for fun. Additinally, if I had no proof otherwise, as a DM, I would feel compelled to allow it. That being said, I do agree with you; it would be very much over the top.

[Bandari]

I realize that this is a bit of a necro thread, but you cannot use Zycerll with Malconvoker. Anything with the Alien template becomes neutral. Malconvoker's Fiendish Legion ability requires that the target be evil.

The only way I can see gaining the use of it is an argument that the creature 'gains' the template, but that the original target is evil. Seems weak, but there it is.

[Rhatahema]

"Always Neutral" is only mentioned in the entry for the pseudonatural hippogriff. Hippogriffs are normally "Always Neutral" because they're of an animal intelligence. Nowhere in the template description does it mention a change to the creature's alignment. A fiendish -> pseudonatural animal will retain its evil alignment. Strangely, pseudonatural -> fiendish creatures are impossible.

If you want to apply the pseudonatural template to your summons, take a look at the Mastery of Madness feat in Player's Guide to Eberron [pg126]. It requires Iron Will and is somewhat Eberron specific, but it allows you summon a pseudonatural version of any celestial of fiendish creature you could normally summon. In this case, however, Malconvoker wouldn't work, as the animals summoned would retain their neutral alignment.

[Answerer]

I think Bandari is conflating the rules used for the Alienist with the rules used for Zceryll. The Alienist explicitly states that it removes everything from Summon Monster except the Fiendish/Celestial creatures, which all get the Pseudonatural template instead of the Fiendish/Celestial template.