DM looking for help to understand a PC's Character Sheet

[missmvicious]

Okay so last night I had my first session DM'ing a 4e campaign. I only had a couple of brief forays in to DM'ing in 3.5 so considering that and the fact that I have 2 brand new to 4e players and 2 that are still very very new I restricted the books that could be used to create your character to players handbooks one and two. I also restricted alignments so that no one could be evil. (my very first attempt to DM I ended up with a Paladin and an evil character in the same party and that head ache only ended when I killed the campaign so I'm not going through that again) And the last restriction was only for story set up. I told every one that they were the pupils of Douvan Stahl and that he was missing and they were going looking for him. I know, I know boo how dare I restrict players blah blah blah. Its supposed to just be a simple short campaign so every one learns what they are doing, if they want to upgrade to some super complicated dealie later on they can. I just want things to go smoothly and every one to have fun.
But the one guy that I knew would make things overly complicated because that is what he does. (I am a PC with him in a 3.5 game and he made a fighter that was mute, illiterate and was a poor artist and blamed my character the team leader for not being able to understand him) So I already know that he used powers that were out of Divine Power not just the PH 1&2 which is a bit frustrating because I am trying to dive into 4e for him. And looking at his character sheet I'm very confused. He has 6 encounter powers at level one and he is cross classing. I'm trying to figure out how all this is possible. I was told by people on the playground that you didn't cross class in 4e. And looking at the chart in the PH1 where it tells you how many powers you get it didn't seem to be a sliding scale or something it said 2 at will 1 encounter 1 daily. Is there a rule or feat or something that allows for cross classing and one that gives tons of extra powers? One other PC had asked if there was a way of gaining more powers and the guy in question didn't say that there was and I don't know of any way that it is possible.

I'm trying to figure out if my PC is just a very creative builder, if he picked things out of books that I didn't allow to over power his PC (which he didn't need to do, he got 3 18s) or if he just flat out cheated knowing that an unexperienced DM wouldn't realize it (he also usually wont allow DMs to see his character sheet so thats another reason I considered that as an option).

Honestly if I find out that he cheated flat out I am kicking him from the campaign entirely. He really frustrated the other PCs a lot by just behaving like an interruptive lunatic and he broke 2 of the 3 guide lines that I put down for starting the campaign. The two of course being that he picked powers out of a book that no one even had a copy of that I hadn't allowed and with out even bringing it up to me when the PCs all introduced their characters he announced that he was not a pupil and that he didn't know Douvan Stahl and he was just randomly with them.
I like the player, he is actually a pretty funny guy but we have been at odds in D&D for like a month now and I am honestly worried that he is trying to be a pain in the ass because when he decided to take a 1 month break from DMing his campaign I offered to take it over for him since he now has a full time job. He told me hell no but I could start my own campaign during his break, I don't think he actually thought that I would do it. He announced as soon as we finished playing last night that his life settled down more quickly then he expected and that as soon as we got to a stopping point in mine we could all resume his game again. Which I thought was a bit rude to me as a DM but also to the 3 players that are only in my campaign. Especially since he set the bridge on fire for a couple of players (myself included) when he rail roaded his campaign by throwing an encounter level 12 at a party of level 2 PCs, put the spell casters in collars that controlled their every action so you couldn't even play your PC and then immediately decided that he needed a one month break.

Sorry to kinda rant about that. Its a month of frustration built up.

Can anyone explain how the powers and cross classing works?

[NecroRebel]

That doesn't sound like a railroaded campaign idea at all; it's simply the campaign's premise, and in fact should be expected.

If he's a member of a race that gets a racial encounter power (most of them do, actually), is of a class that gets an encounter power as a feature (like a Cleric's Channel Divinity and Healing Word), and took a multiclass feat that gave him a 1/encounter ability that he's treating as an encounter power, he could, theoretically, have 5 encounter "powers" at level 1. If he was a Cleric, he might also have treated the fact that he can use Healing Word 2/encounter as 2 separate but identical encounter powers, pushing the number to 6. So, in theory, he could have 6 encounter powers at level 1... But I wouldn't count on it. He's probably misinterpreting something (in particular, he might've counted the two options of Channel Divinity for two separate powers, but they're not, really).

Have you got his character sheet handy? What race and class is he? What feat(s) did he take? And, if you've got the sheet with you, what powers did he take?

If you can confirm that he took things out of a disallowed book, I'd tell him to swap them out for something in a confirmed book. If he could have misinterpreted things somehow, ask him to explain himself. If he is blatantly cheating, though, kicking him out for that and for being disruptive is probably a good idea. At the least, you should probably tell him, "No, character backstories are as students of Stahl, if you aren't one of his students your character isn't in the campaign."



Edit: As for how selecting powers works, you appear to have it right. You get exactly two L1 at-will attack powers (unless you're human), exactly one L1 encounter attack power, and exactly one L1 daily attack power at level 1. You also may get a racial power that are usually encounter utility-type powers. Some classes also get features that work as powers as well.

Multiclassing takes a feat to do. You can only multiclass into one other class. The feats that make you multiclassed almost all give the use of one of the second class's class features once per encounter. Once you are multiclassed, you can take further feats that allow you to select powers from the second class (but they don't give you the powers, they basically just put it on your available power list). So, generally, multiclassing basically gives you one weak utility-type power that you wouldn't have otherwise, but doesn't actually give you additional powers.

[INDYSTAR188]

I obviously don't know you or him, but it seems pretty unfortunate that you guys are at odds (since the point of the game is to come together and have a good time). Cheating follows the point above, it's supposed to be fun and challenging! I require to see all of my PC's character sheets, if he isn't letting you look at it somethings wrong. I would ask him to sit down with you and explain the powers he took, tell him your confused and you just want to get on the same page. Additionally, tell him that for the campaign purposes he IS a student of Stahl. Necro has several very good points about possible powers, the PHB shows via chart the amount of class powers your allowed to have, these are usually your fighting options, but classes all have something available to them too. I would ask him to switch to powers in the books you allowed too. Finally, I would offer to switch games with him, so that you DM one week and he does the next.

[missmvicious]

That doesn't sound like a railroaded campaign idea at all; it's simply the campaign's premise, and in fact should be expected.




None of us would have minded it as a plot point if he hadn't had us spend 2 hours trying to hold the enemies off and told us there was a slim chance we could have beaten them. There was no way after having a tough battle just ten minutes before which burned through our daily powers that we would have won short of rolling a lot of nat 20s. If something is going to happen because its a plot point the DM should just describe it to us instead of making us play out a meaningless and moral crushing battle. Or at least given us the option to not play it out. This isn't the first time the he has a DM has made us go through something we couldn't possibly beat to do something like kill us off.

@ INDYSTAR188 though, the idea of switching to every other week is actually a really good one. I wonder how no one thought of that sooner.

I had just wanted to post a picture of the sheet itself but my scanner is made of lame.
He is a gnomish cleric.
He has in his race features reactive stealth, fade away, fey origin, trickster's cunning and master trickster. (which accounts for 1 of the extra encounter powers)
As class features he has Channel Divinity, Healer's Lore, Healing Word, Ritual Casting, and Bardic Training. So that is one extra power there as far as I can tell, as well as one of his extra feat.
In his feats he has Alchemist, Bardic Ritualist and Ritual Caster. I don't get the 3 feat either.
And his powers are as follows
At Will: Lance of Faith and Astral Seal (Astral Seal being the one that is from DP that he shouldn't have)
Encounter : Fade away, Ghost Sound, Divine Fortune, Turn Undead, Healing Word and Divine Glow.
Daily: Guardian of Faith

Where does it outline one's ability to multiclass in 4e?
And if this is a hybrid character then I am still not allowing it because I said PH 1&2. I don't even have a copy of 3 to double check that he isn't BSing something

I already texted him about his back story but I haven't brought up the fact he has used powers from other books. I don't think he intentionally meant to leave his character sheet at my place and I found it while I was cleaning up. I noticed it was way more many pages then they normally are and was astonished to see all the powers. I know as DM I have the right to see the characters sheets but a lot of times he still gets uppity about if you are looking at it. And its not like I was sneaking around spying on my players. So I want to bring it all up to him at once so I dont get accused of not trusting him or something

[NecroRebel]

None of us would have minded it as a plot point if he hadn't had us spend 2 hours trying to hold the enemies off and told us there was a slim chance we could have beaten them. There was no way after having a tough battle just ten minutes before which burned through our daily powers that we would have won short of rolling a lot of nat 20s. If something is going to happen because its a plot point the DM should just describe it to us instead of making us play out a meaningless and moral crushing battle. Or at least given us the option to not play it out. This isn't the first time the he has a DM has made us go through something we couldn't possibly beat to do something like kill us off.

That... was actually a response to you saying, "I told every one that they were the pupils of Douvan Stahl and that he was missing and they were going looking for him. I know, I know boo how dare I restrict players blah blah blah." Sending a level 2 party against any creature about level 7 or so is stupid.

[missmvicious]

That... was actually a response to you saying, "I told every one that they were the pupils of Douvan Stahl and that he was missing and they were going looking for him. I know, I know boo how dare I restrict players blah blah blah." Sending a level 2 party against any creature about level 7 or so is stupid.


Okay well cool, I am glad that you got that it was just the story set up. A lot of people on her complained when I wouldn't allow the same person to use a frying pan that dealt the same damage as a mace claiming that it was all just fluff. The problem of course being that I am a house wife that actually spins and throws maces (like the deadly kind) up twenty feet in the air and would catch them out at ren fairs. I know the difference better then most between a frying pan and a morning star

[INDYSTAR188]

Cast Iron is awesome and you could probably kill someone with it, but imho theres no fair comparison to that and a mace. It COULD just be refluffed but if you set that standard then your opening up a big can of worms.

[missmvicious]

Cast Iron is awesome and you could probably kill someone with it, but imho theres no fair comparison to that and a mace. It COULD just be refluffed but if you set that standard then your opening up a big can of worms.


Yeah I briefly considered allowing it as fluff but I believe that he is the kind of player that needs to be kept in check or else he breaks the game. I know the other group that he plays with is always trying to build epic broken characters and that is how he learned. I just am trying to learn to work around it. I told the frying pan would work like an improvised weapon but I ruled that if he crit'd that its would daze an enemy. I'm trying to both work with him some and stay realistic. And realistically although I don't think cast iron is any thing like a mace I'm willing to say if you get hit in the head with it you are at least dazed.

[LudiDrizzt]

Here's an idea: He seems to know 4e a lot better than you. Why not just let him play what he wants using the books he wants, and trust that he isn't cheating?

Novel idea I know, but I see no evidence of cheating anywhere in what you listed.

[INDYSTAR188]

Here's an idea: He seems to know 4e a lot better than you. Why not just let him play what he wants using the books he wants, and trust that he isn't cheating?

Novel idea I know, but I see no evidence of cheating anywhere in what you listed.

I would allow that with a caveat that you ask him to show you the source of whatever he's using. This way you can ask the questions, rule out stuff you don't like, and make sure you both really know how a power works and what exactly it will/won't do. I personally prefer my players use books/resources I have so that I fully understand what they have available to them and hopefully I know what it is their doing on their turn. That's not to say that I won't let them use a feat from Dragon Magazine or whatever, but if they want to use it, before they take it I want to be familiar and ok it.

[Tegu8788]

I think he needs to explain the three feats at level one, and you may want to have him look at his sheet compared to others. If he's trying to be a jerk, kick him to the curb, but if there's a chance he really doesn't understand non-broken chars, that would explain his behavior as a player and possibly a DM. If he expects you all to be uber-powerful like his character, then his encounters make more sense.

[LudiDrizzt]

I think he needs to explain the three feats at level one, and you may want to have him look at his sheet compared to others. If he's trying to be a jerk, kick him to the curb, but if there's a chance he really doesn't understand non-broken chars, that would explain his behavior as a player and possibly a DM. If he expects you all to be uber-powerful like his character, then his encounters make more sense.

This character is no where in the neighborhood of broken...what are you people talking about?

[NecroRebel]

This character is no where in the neighborhood of broken...what are you people talking about?

He might be "broken" in the underpowered sense... His feat choice is questionable from an optimization standpoint.

I suspect Tegu, who was the only one who brought up this character as broken, didn't read the analysis by the more experienced people.We've already figured out that having 3 feats at level 1 is entirely possible (you could have 4 if you wanted). It's somewhat stupid to do, as you get practically nothing out of either Alchemist or Ritual Caster until much higher levels, but possible.

[Shyftir]

Nothing is broke at level one, but if he's already edging up his power quotient...

Yeah, the only thing I see is three feats at lvl 1. Everything else seems pretty normal. Multi-classing in 4e is handled by taking a feat that grants some features from another class.

It's a bit wonky and over complicated considering the situation, but not wrong or OP.

Edit: still only seeing a reason for him to have two feats. The Ritual caster is free for clerics I believe and one more is natural to every character. I'm not seeing the third. Since he isn't human.

[NecroRebel]

Edit: still only seeing a reason for him to have two feats. The Ritual caster is free for clerics I believe and one more is natural to every character. I'm not seeing the third. Since he isn't human.

Alchemist can be substituted for Ritual Caster for no cost, so he trades the free Ritual Caster feat from being a Cleric for Alchemist, then takes Bardic Ritualist. Bardic Ritualist gives you the Bard's Bardic Training class feature. The Bardic Training class feature gives you Ritual Caster as a bonus feat. So, he gets Ritual Caster, trades it away, then gets it back. If he was human, his human bonus feat would be a fourth feat.

[Shyftir]

Ah, which brings up the fact he's using Divine Power AND Arcane Power...
(Divine Power for Astral Seal) (Arcane Power for Bardic Ritualist.)

So most of your issues are removed by making him back out of the "Power" books.

[DeadManSleeping]

While he's definitely breaking the rules you set forth, he's not really "powergaming", except in the sense that he'll have access to more rituals than is normal for a caster. Considering the money they cost and the infrequency of their use, that's not really a problem.

Still, you should have a talk with him about not listening to what you ask him to do and then doing the exact opposite. That's a real jerk move right there, and not something that belongs at the gaming table.

[Tegu8788]

He might be "broken" in the underpowered sense... His feat choice is questionable from an optimization standpoint.

I suspect Tegu, who was the only one who brought up this character as broken, didn't read the analysis by the more experienced people.We've already figured out that having 3 feats at level 1 is entirely possible (you could have 4 if you wanted). It's somewhat stupid to do, as you get practically nothing out of either Alchemist or Ritual Caster until much higher levels, but possible.

My statement was in reference to a statement the OP said, not actually reading the build in the other threat when I posted, and as I have said on several other thread, I'm a noob. It seems my mechanical concerns have been covered, but if, while playing a legal DnD character, is breaking campaign rules, that's still a problem.

[missmvicious]

This character is no where in the neighborhood of broken...what are you people talking about?


Based on the rules I set up in the game he is in fact broken. If anyone had any problems with the book restrictions they could have brought it up to me instead of just taking powers and feats from unallowed books. I know that its easy for more experienced players to handle characters like that, my concern is mostly just for the new players. Its far harder to learn a system if you have some one that just can't help but over power their character. I'm trying to build an environment that will allow a player from 2.0 and one from 3.5 get used to the 4e system. Any one that has played an earlier edition knows what a tough switch it can be.

I spoke to the player though and we have resolved our problem. He was unhappy with his character rebuild after he took away everything but the players handbooks material and offered to just help DM instead of play. I think that it would be good for both of us and the group. He knows a lot more rules and I have a track record of making rulings that are considered fair by most if not the whole group I am DMing for. And having one fewer player should make it easier to keep combat going quickly. 6 people is a bit much, I just wasn't expecting every one to actually join in.

Thanks every one for helping me figure out his character sheet out so quickly and letting me know where each problem originated at. <3

[Firebug]

He is a gnomish cleric.
He has in his race features reactive stealth, fade away, fey origin, trickster's cunning and master trickster. (which accounts for 1 of the extra encounter powers)
As class features he has Channel Divinity, Healer's Lore, Healing Word, Ritual Casting, and Bardic Training. So that is one extra power there as far as I can tell, as well as one of his extra feat.
In his feats he has Alchemist, Bardic Ritualist and Ritual Caster. I don't get the 3 feat either.
And his powers are as follows
At Will: Lance of Faith and Astral Seal (Astral Seal being the one that is from DP that he shouldn't have)
Encounter : Fade away, Ghost Sound, Divine Fortune, Turn Undead, Healing Word and Divine Glow.
Daily: Guardian of Faith


Everything is accounted for, all the information you posted is in line with a legal character.

You have to realize that most of those encounter powers are either required to fulfill the leader role (healing word), or are very situational (ghost sound, divine fortune, turn undead).

Someone already explained the alchemist/ritual caster feat issue.

What probably happened was he made the character on the character builder with all options available and just didn't realize certain powers/feats were from "banned" sources.

[missmvicious]

Everything is accounted for, all the information you posted is in line with a legal character.

You have to realize that most of those encounter powers are either required to fulfill the leader role (healing word), or are very situational (ghost sound, divine fortune, turn undead).

Someone already explained the alchemist/ritual caster feat issue.

What probably happened was he made the character on the character builder with all options available and just didn't realize certain powers/feats were from "banned" sources.


Every one and his brother knew that we were only using two books but at least we have the issue it cleared up.

[The New Bruceski]

What I'd like to know is how he got three 18s through the point-buy system? Even taking 16s in Int and Cha and getting the +2 from race leaves him with only 4 points, the best he could do with the other stats is 9/10/10/13.

[Fortuna]

The OP said "rolled", so I'd guess they (spoilers ahead!) rolled stats.

[missmvicious]

We rolled our characters. Epic, super-optimized characters aren't really necessary for a fun session in our games, so we just do 4d6, best-of-three. You get one re-roll, but you re-roll all stats and keep what you get. It kind of adds a little excitement to the building process... like adding a touch of Vegas to the experience.

We tried the array system in the last 4e. It created less interesting characters, imo.

[INDYSTAR188]

The OP said "rolled", so I'd guess they (spoilers ahead!) rolled stats.

I wish the forum had a +1 or a like button.