Rules for spiked chain (5-20ft) charge

[deusXmachina]

Hey guys,

So i was thinking about my next build and i stumbled upon the spiked chain
Im probably going to play human monkey grip large spiked chain 5-20ft range I want to play a suicidal charge build

Looking at the charge rules in the player guide it doesnt accually say in the TEXT at what point in distance i have to attack, just as long as you move in a straight line etc..

BUT, if you look at the picture that comes with the text, it says :
"Torkdek must move to the nearest square from which he can attack the orc"

Since i have 5-20ft range does that mean i have to charge up to 20ft away for the creature and attack?
Lets say i "want" to charge up to 10ft and attack there?

In fysical terms you could say you hold the spiked chain in the middle, thereby reducing the range to 10ft and making the attack at the closest spot (10ft)

Basicly: if you have 5-x ft reach, you can choose at which spot to stop and attack afther making a single move (when within limits of reach)
Can you also choose at which square to stop and attack when chraging(when within limits of reach)

Thanks

[tyckspoon]

Looking at the charge rules in the player guide it doesnt accually say in the TEXT at what point in distance i have to attack, just as long as you move in a straight line etc..


Page 154, second paragraph of 'Movement During a Charge', immediately above the example picture.

No, reach is not optional when making a charge; you have the ability to attack from 20 feet away (only you don't, see next topic), so you charge to the nearest square 20 feet from your target and make your attack.

Large weapons don't give you extended reach. It's counterintuitive, but it's how the rules work: your reach is based on your size and whether you are wielding a Reach weapon. If you are wielding a Reach weapon, you double your reach. A Human with a Reach weapon he is capable of wielding properly has a 10-ft reach regardless of the size of the weapon.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge


First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent...

Apparently, you HAVE to attack from maximum reach on a charge.

Interesting.

Edit: Mostly swordsaged. I gave a link! :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

Also, having a large weapon doesn't double the reach of the weapon. In fact, by certain readings, it actually reduces your reach (since a reach weapon has to be sized "appropriately" for you, with no definition of what "appropriate" means).

Other than that, the others are correct. You have to charge to the closest square from which you can strike your foe. The funny thing about this? Dragons don't benefit from Pounce. A dragon's bite attack has 5' more reach than the rest of it's full attack. Thus, the dragon has to stop moving at X+5' away and can only make its bite attack because the rest of it's attacks only have a reach of X'.

[Vladislav]

By the strictest reading, it also means that Bull Rush on a charge is impossible, since Bull Rush requires you to "move into the defender space", but charge requires you to "move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent" (normally 5')

I guess this belongs in the Dysfunctional Rules thread.

[deusXmachina]

First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent...

oh missed that 1..

Ok,Ok.. although i dont see the logic i can understand the charge comes with "movement restrictions" that force you to take the closest square you can attack

lets picture this then:
Same character WITH quick draw

1. I charge unarmed!
2. I am at 10ft
3. I quickdraw my spiked chain 5-20ft
4. Oh look i can attack : Attack!

[herrhauptmann]

lets picture this then:
Same character WITH quick draw

1. I charge unarmed!
2. I am at 10ft
3. I quickdraw my spiked chain 5-20ft
4. Oh look i can attack : Attack!

What is this "spiked chain 5-20ft" Some special MAGIC chain that gets you additional reach? Because we've covered that just having a bigger weapon doesn't grant additional reach. (See titan blooded pixie, huge warhammer, but has to enter your square to attack)

If you want to be a human with a spiked chain and 20ft reach, you need to take some aberrant feats. Or maybe willing deformity to increase your regular reach to 10. Then when you pick up a chain, your reach becomes 20ft.
But at that point, you're better off just being a half ogre or something else that is large size already. THEN grabbing a chain.

So you charge to 5ft, and you attack.
With your bare hands.
The quickdraw happens as part of your charge, so it happens 'mid movement.' Meaning you still attack with the chain.

Maybe a weird pouncing build will do it:
Charge and attack barehanded with first attack. Then freely draw a weapon in the middle of your attack routine to use a real weapon on your lower attacks.
But that might not even be legal. Even if it's a 'free action,' I'm not sure you can intersperse a full attack sequence with other actions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Charging is a single action, you cannot take other actions during one. The only exception to this would be an immediate action, which would not include quick-drawing a weapon.

Reach is determined by the creature attacking, not the size of his weapon. A reach weapon doubles the wielder's reach, it does not give you double the reach of a different wielder. Inappropriately sized weapons do not ever grant the wielder additional reach, this was caused by RPGA characters of medium size races using longspears and glaives sized for small creatures in one hand so they could still use a shield, but it still also applies to larger than appropriate weapons as in this case. A medium creature wielding a large spiked chain only has a 5 ft. reach.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If you want the actual 20 reach with a spiked chain as a human, look into aberrant reach from Lords of Madness. Also take a peak at the willing deformity line from Heroes of Horror. Together, that should net you a 5-25 reach with a spiked chain.:smallcool:

[Frosty]

Charging is a single action, you cannot take other actions during one. The only exception to this would be an immediate action, which would not include quick-drawing a weapon.[/b]If you're using Pathfinder at all, you candraw a weapon as part of movement. When charging, if you have at least BAB +1, you can draw your weapon as part of the charge, but can't move from than 1x your speed.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

If you're using Pathfinder at all, you candraw a weapon as part of movement. When charging, if you have at least BAB +1, you can draw your weapon as part of the charge, but can't move from than 1x your speed.

That's in 3.5, too (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon):


If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.

[Vladislav]

You can draw a weapon as part of a move, but not as part of a charge.

[ericgrau]

I think RAI/RAMS (though perhaps not RAW) is to take the shortest path to the range you attack from, which may be closer than your reach. i.e., the purpose of the rule is to keep people from charging to the square next to the target rather than the closer one in front of it.

[Metahuman1]

Personally, I'd ask the Dm to house rule the reach rules. There are historical examples of warriors being very effective with a spear in one hand and a shield in the other, and of warriors using massive swords and Axes to great effect in no small part because of the greater reach they got. So that would mean it should be allowed even for none magical classes cause it wasn't even a really rare thing to see in history.


And for a spiked chain it already makes sense since it's the same thing just a bit heavier and a good length longer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Personally, I'd ask the Dm to house rule the reach rules. There are historical examples of warriors being very effective with a spear in one hand and a shield in the other, and of warriors using massive swords and Axes to great effect in no small part because of the greater reach they got. So that would mean it should be allowed even for none magical classes cause it wasn't even a really rare thing to see in history.


And for a spiked chain it already makes sense since it's the same thing just a bit heavier and a good length longer.

A shortspear can be used in one hand, it just won't grant any exceptional reach. There's also the Longaxe in Complete Adventurer, an appropriately sized axe that grants reach. No houserules are necessary, trying to use inappropriately sized weapons for extra reach is nothing short of rules abuse. Mechanically, reach is an advantage that has a cost: either size, or multiple feats, or a select few class features that are only available by a certain level.

[tyckspoon]

Personally, I'd ask the Dm to house rule the reach rules. There are historical examples of warriors being very effective with a spear in one hand and a shield in the other, and of warriors using massive swords and Axes to great effect in no small part because of the greater reach they got. So that would mean it should be allowed even for none magical classes cause it wasn't even a really rare thing to see in history.


In real life combat, a six-inch difference in the effective striking range of a weapon can decide a fight. In D&D, two human-sized combatants are blurred out over a full 10-foot area, which completely obliterates the effects of such relatively small differences in reach. The Reach quality represents those weapons that are long enough to make a difference even on that abstracted zoomed-out scale.

[ericgrau]

All the spear & reach stuff reminded me of: http://www.hulu.com/watch/210629/ip-man
Go to 122:11, "How can we get near him"
Oh, and long spears would be silly in one hand. I don't think anyone could hold that effectively. Shorter spears, sure.

[Axier]

If you want impressive reach and a shield, monkey grip a longspear, and get the feat "Short Haft" (PHB 2). It's even more effective if you have two or more small people (such as kobolds) with Swarmfighting. One hafted short, and one striking long.

[Keld Denar]

MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

[herrhauptmann]

MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!
+1
Also if you want a bigger weapon, buy strongarm bracers. Better than wasting your precious feats on something that doesn't work very well.