Natural Weapons, Grafts, and other monk questions

[Little Brother]

How in the name of bacon does it work?
Do Mighty Arms grant you the benefit of the larger size unarmed strike with the Battlefist, or just the slam? Or anything?
Do mighty arms, by RAW, remove any claw attacks you have?
Would increased unarmed damage from a monk affect natural attacks in any way?
I assume not, but since I'm asking anyways, might as well ask: Do classes that advance manifesting of the class you took Tashalatora add onto your effective Monk level?

Thanks.

[Keld Denar]

Natural attacks are not "special monk weapons", and can not be combined with a Flurry of Blows.

I'm AFB, so I'll have to look up the Mighty Arms graft later. IIRC, though, it just gives you a slam attack like a Warforged. If its described as replacing your arms, then yes, it would eliminate your existing claw attacks with any arms replaced. I'm pretty sure you can attach a Battlefist to a Mighty Arms graft, but again, AFB.

Tash requires the feat Monastic Training. Monastic Training requires you to select a single [Psionic] class. Tash only stacks your levels of Monk together with that ONE [Psionic] class, and only WRT your UAS damage, Flurry of Blows progression, and AC bonus. You don't get the speed increase, slowfall range, or any of the other class abilities of the monk.

[Little Brother]

Natural attacks are not "special monk weapons", and can not be combined with a Flurry of Blows.So, if I, say, have 2 claws and a bite, would a full attack for a monk be 5 unarmed, 2 claws, and a bite?

I'm AFB, so I'll have to look up the Mighty Arms graft later. IIRC, though, it just gives you a slam attack like a Warforged. If its described as replacing your arms, then yes, it would eliminate your existing claw attacks with any arms replaced. I'm pretty sure you can attach a Battlefist to a Mighty Arms graft, but again, AFB.Can I ask exactly where it says that? I mean by pure RAW.

Tash requires the feat Monastic Training. Monastic Training requires you to select a single [Psionic] class. Tash only stacks your levels of Monk together with that ONE [Psionic] class, and only WRT your UAS damage, Flurry of Blows progression, and AC bonus. You don't get the speed increase, slowfall range, or any of the other class abilities of the monk.Thought not. Wait, does Cerebromancer qualify as a "Psionic class?"

And can one Power Attack with unarmed strikes/Natural Weapons?

[Keld Denar]

1) Depends on how many attacks your monk had. If you had say, 8 monk levels (BAB +6, Flurry at -1) and claw/claw/bite, you could either:

Flurry UAS +5/+5/+0

OR

UAS +6/+1
Claw +1/+1
Bite +1

3 attacks vs 5, but your UAS damage will probably be higher, and easier to augment with magic

2) As I said, I'm AFB (away from books). I don't recall off the top of my head if Mighty Arms physically replaces your arms, or something else. I'll look it up when I get home, if you want, or you can look it up youself. If it does replace your arm, then clearly it would remove your existing claw and replace it with a warforged arm (which can make a slam attack).

Even if it did, you couldn't make both a claw and a slam with the same arm. They both occupy the same "part" of your limb. And yes, since someone is going to ask, a humanoid makes his slam attacks with his limbs. If you don't believe me, consult the MM and look for any humanoid monster who's full attack routine includes both a manufactured weapon and a slam attack. None exist, because if your limb is busy with one weapon, it can't make attacks with another.

3) Yes, while UAS's and other natural weapons are considered Light WRT most things (like Weapon Finesse), you can indeed PA 1:1 with them as if they were 1handed.

4) Yes, Cerebromancer is a [Psionic] class. Any class that either grants PP or advancing manifesting is a [Psionic] class.

EDIT: I co-wrote a mini-guide a while back to help answer some of these questions. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

[MeeposFire]

mighty arms work with the battlefist and is why they are so important for monks of all races.

[Little Brother]

Thanks Keld.

Follow up to a follow up: I believe there's a feat to let you flurry with basically anything. If that was the case, could you not combine flurry with Multiattack and Rapid Strike for a crazy number of attacks?

Also, anyone know where that feat is? Unorthodox Flurry, I believe it's called.

Would there be any way to get the arms back? Are there ways to get two additional arms to be replaced?

And what other grafts/gear are there to give natural attacks that don't replace the arms? I know of the Goring horns(LoM), but that's it. I *Think* there wouldn't be a problem in replacing one of the Mighty Arms with a Rending Claw, but I don't know.

Thanks.

[Demon of Death]

Thanks Keld.

Follow up to a follow up: I believe there's a feat to let you flurry with basically anything. If that was the case, could you not combine flurry with Multiattack and Rapid Strike for a crazy number of attacks?

Also, anyone know where that feat is? Unorthodox Flurry, I believe it's called.

Would there be any way to get the arms back? Are there ways to get two additional arms to be replaced?

And what other grafts/gear are there to give natural attacks that don't replace the arms?

Beast Strike (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Beast_Strike) may be somewhat relevant to this discussion

And Unorthodox Flurry (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Unorthodox_Flurry)

Not exactly what you described.

For the arms there is the Girallon Arms spell from Savage Species, reprinted in the Spell Compendium,but in SS it could be permanacied, that gives you two more arms.

[dextercorvia]

Three levels of Shou Disciple (worth taking if you are going non-magic monk type character) will let you flurry with your Natural Weapons.

[Little Brother]

Beast Strike (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Beast_Strike) may be somewhat relevant to this discussion

And Unorthodox Flurry (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Unorthodox_Flurry)Eh, close enough. Does "Natural Weapon" count as one weapon?

Isn't there also some PrC that does let you flurry with anything, then?

Not exactly what you described.

For the arms there is the Girallon Arms spell from Savage Species, reprinted in the Spell Compendium,but in SS it could be permanacied, that gives you two more arms.They could be permanencied? Really?

Would that really qualify?

[dextercorvia]

Eh, close enough. Does "Natural Weapon" count as one weapon?

Isn't there also some PrC that does let you flurry with anything, then?
They could be permanencied? Really?

Would that really qualify?

Not really Claw, Bite, etc are different weapons. See above for Shou Disciple.

[Demon of Death]

They could be permanencied? Really?

Would that really qualify?

Sorry, the spell is called Girallon's Blessing
Just the basic run-down of it

3rd level spell for Cleric & Wizard
So 1,500 XP to Permanency
Gives one additional pair of arms per caster level each hands a fully working hand max of 5 more arms per casting
Only 2 More pairs of arms for Medium creatures
You can use two two-handed items at once
But just re-read it and noticed this "The additional arms do not allow additional attacks or several simultaneous tasks"

But if used with the Fuse Arms spell from the same book, they increase your strength a lot, which can also be permanency'd for the same price.

[Little Brother]

Three levels of Shou Disciple (worth taking if you are going non-magic monk type character) will let you flurry with your Natural Weapons.Perfect! Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks.


Sorry, the spell is called Girallon's Blessing
Just the basic run-down of it

3rd level spell for Cleric & Wizard
So 1,500 XP to Permanency
Gives one additional pair of arms per caster level each hands a fully working hand max of 5 more arms per casting
Only 2 More pairs of arms for Medium creatures
You can use two two-handed items at once
But just re-read it and noticed this "The additional arms do not allow additional attacks or several simultaneous tasks"

But if used with the Fuse Arms spell from the same book, they increase your strength a lot, which can also be permanency'd for the same price.Would those actually be valid targets for replacing? Awesome.

Also, how do multiple arms function with Flurry? Would you get extra unarmed strikes like normal Natural Weapons?

[Coidzor]

Always wondered how the "removing a hand from a 2-handed weapon is a free action, as it gripping the weapon with the second hand again" would interact with having a claw natural weapon. Especially since it's used as a way to justify UAS+THF :smallconfused:

[Keld Denar]

If you have multiple arms capable of wielding multiple weapons, you can use Multiweapon Fighting. Flurry just adds 1 (or 2 with Greater Flurry) to your routine, same as you get when you flurry with TWF.

[Little Brother]

If you have multiple arms capable of wielding multiple weapons, you can use Multiweapon Fighting. Flurry just adds 1 (or 2 with Greater Flurry) to your routine, same as you get when you flurry with TWF.But since it's a natural weapon, could I use it as such, an extrw attack at the penalty?

Okay, one more question, and a pro'lly noobish one: How do you calculate damage for sizes above colossal?

[Demon of Death]

Ok, the spells both got put into the Spell Compendium and the Girallon's Blessing got changed a bit.


All of your arms have a claw attack, and they call all weild weapons now,
Blessing is also a Druid 3 spell now
Note that Spell Compendium doesn't have anything to be permanancied as there is no table for it, but easy enough to show your DM the Savage Species Area for the two spells, especially since they are almost the exact same
Also, the Strength bonus from Fuse Arms is not named, therefore stacks with everything
Also, Fused Arms is a 2nd level spell for Cleric and Wizard now.

Have Fun.

[Little Brother]

Ok, the spells both got put into the Spell Compendium and the Girallon's Blessing got changed a bit.


All of your arms have a claw attack, and they call all weild weapons now,
And Fuse Arms is a 3rd level spell
Blessing is also a Druid 3 spell now
Note that Spell Compendium doesn't have anything to be permanancied as there is no table for it, but easy enough to show your DM the Savage Species Area for the two spells, especially since they are almost the exact same
Also, the Strength bonus from Fuse Arms is not named, therefore stacks with everything
Also, Fused Arms is a 2nd level spell for Cleric and Wizard now.

Have Fun.
I meant for RAW

Also, how do old grafts(FF, LOM, Book of Bad Latin) interact with the newer(Eberron books) and newest(DotD)? And can you stack bite attacks?

Also, how one improve flurry without additional class levels? Preferably mundane gear, or at least something like a tattoo or graft.

[Coidzor]

I meant for RAW

Also, how do old grafts(FF, LOM, Book of Bad Latin) interact with the newer(Eberron books) and newest(DotD)?

Ah, fun one, don't recall offhand. Did you consult the handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12154.0)? I believe it addresses interaction to a certain extent there...


And can you stack bite attacks?

No, not really. Why do you ask?

IIRC, only the best one applies unless the language of how the bite attack is acquired has it so that one of the bite attacks specifically supercedes any others one possesses.

Closest thing to bite stacking would be to acquire additional heads/mouths on limbs.


Also, how one improve flurry without additional class levels? Preferably mundane gear, or at least something like a tattoo or graft.

Don't recall anything about that offhand, sorry.

[Darrin]

How in the name of bacon does it work?


The designers were frequently confused by unarmed strikes, natural attacks, and how they work together. Keld's miniguide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) straightens most of it out.



Do Mighty Arms grant you the benefit of the larger size unarmed strike with the Battlefist, or just the slam? Or anything?


The description of how a Battlefist works is completely FUBAR. First, it is described as an oversized spiked gauntlet, which might suggest it's used as a manufactured weapon. But instead, it increases a Warforged's slam (natural weapon, not manufactured) by one size category.

Unless you are a Warforged monk, in which case the designer divides by zero, and the bizarre unanswered questions quickly start to multiply:

Does the monk still get a slam attack?
Does the battlefist have to be used in the attack to get the bonuses?
Can it be used in a flurry?
Can it be used as an off-hand attack for TWF?
Is the battlefist a light or one-handed weapon?
Can you mount two battlefists?
Can the battlefist manipulate objects/somatic gestures/spell components/knit a sweater?

The Mighty Arms graft just adds more questions... because even if you're a human monk, by RAW you're still not a Warforged monk.

You'll need to ask your DM how he wants to treat a Mighty Arms/Battlefist combo.



Do mighty arms, by RAW, remove any claw attacks you have?


RAW doesn't specify... whether or not the hands are included with the arms sounds mostly like a fluff decision. The material components say you need two Warforged arms, which I would presume would include the hands as well, or constructed mechanical arms, which could either contain some of the graftee's original parts or could just replace the natural claws with "constructed mechanical claws" that are more or less identical to the original claws. Sounds like another DM's call.



Would increased unarmed damage from a monk affect natural attacks in any way?


Which natural attacks? The slam provided by the Mighty Arms, or the monk's unarmed strike? You get a size increase from the battlefist on your unarmed strikes, but I have no idea what happens to the slam attack.


Follow up to a follow up: I believe there's a feat to let you flurry with basically anything. If that was the case, could you not combine flurry with Multiattack and Rapid Strike for a crazy number of attacks?


Unorthodox Flurry is in the Dragon Compendium. Choose a light weapon you are proficient with, and you can Flurry with it as if it were a special monk weapon. Note that if you're being an absolute stickler for RAW, you get the usual headaches with monks not being proficient with unarmed strikes, and humanoids are not automatically proficient with any natural weapons they might have. If you're trying to add bite/claw/claw to your Flurry progression, you'll have to take Unorthodox Flurry for *each type* of natural weapon you have, otherwise they can't be used in the same round as a Flurry.



Would there be any way to get the arms back? Are there ways to get two additional arms to be replaced?


You could cast girallon's blessing + permanency before grafting on the Mighty Arms. Or polymorph shenanigans. But watch out for dispel magic. Otherwise regeneration or Dukar Hand Coral should work like normal.


Sorry, the spell is called Girallon's Blessing
Just the basic run-down of it

3rd level spell for Cleric & Wizard
So 1,500 XP to Permanency



Requires caster level 13, which may affect the price: 30 x 13 = 390 GP, 50 x 13 = 650 GP for permanency, and 1500 x 5 GP = 7500 GP, so total cost might be around 8540 GP.




Gives one additional pair of arms per caster level each hands a fully working hand max of 5 more arms per casting
Only 2 More pairs of arms for Medium creatures
You can use two two-handed items at once
But just re-read it and noticed this "The additional arms do not allow additional attacks or several simultaneous tasks"



Spell Compendium changed the effect so that you only get one extra pair of arms regardless of your size, but you get 4 claw attacks and the "make a Will save or you get a -2 penalty for being disoriented/confused by too many limbs" was removed. However, the permanency rules in Savage Species still apply to the new version.



Also, how do multiple arms function with Flurry? Would you get extra unarmed strikes like normal Natural Weapons?

Wouldn't work. Natural weapons (i.e., claws) aren't special monk weapons, and can't be used in a flurry or added as secondary attacks after a flurry. If you add Unorthodox Flurry (claws), then... I'm not sure what happens. The new description of girallon's blessing says the claw attacks cannot be combined with manufactured weapons, and it's not clear if a monk making iterative/flurry attacks with his unarmed strike is using a manufactured weapon (counts as both).


Okay, one more question, and a pro'lly noobish one: How do you calculate damage for sizes above colossal?

Follow the progression from Improved Natural Attack or use the table in the Rules Compendium. There are two "damage tracks", one for d6 and one for d8:

2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6*
2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8
(* = Improved Natural Attack only, not included in the Rules Compendium)

Many Theoretical Optimization (TO) builds extrapolate this table out even further, but by RAW the table stops at 8d6 and 12d8. You can manipulate this a bit further by using the Large Monk Unarmed Damage table, Fist of the Forest, Superior Unarmed Strike/Monk's Belt, and possibly the Heavy Weapon property from Magic of Faerun.



And can you stack bite attacks?


Possibly. Check out the Serpent Arm graft (12000 GP, Serpent Kingdoms p. 154). Add venomfire as a nice little garnish for LOLZ.



Also, how one improve flurry without additional class levels? Preferably mundane gear, or at least something like a tattoo or graft.

Generally by reducing monk levels to zero and using TWF or Snap Kick to get an extra attack instead.

[Cog]

Always wondered how the "removing a hand from a 2-handed weapon is a free action, as it gripping the weapon with the second hand again" would interact with having a claw natural weapon. Especially since it's used as a way to justify UAS+THF :smallconfused:
I don't think I've ever seen that justification used; the usual one I've seen, and use myself, is that you don't need a hand at all to make an unarmed strike - it could just as easily be a kick instead. Thus, the free-off, free-back-on, doesn't allow any additional attacks, as that limb can still only participate in the usual number of attacks.

[Little Brother]

Ah, fun one, don't recall offhand. Did you consult the handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12154.0)? I believe it addresses interaction to a certain extent there...I didn't really see it there.


No, not really. Why do you ask?

IIRC, only the best one applies unless the language of how the bite attack is acquired has it so that one of the bite attacks specifically supercedes any others one possesses.

Closest thing to bite stacking would be to acquire additional heads/mouths on limbs.I was looking at the mandibles graft, but, yeah, I see that. The snake head arm graft thingy looks best.


Don't recall anything about that offhand, sorry.Dang, oh well.


You could cast girallon's blessing + permanency before grafting on the Mighty Arms. Or polymorph shenanigans. But watch out for dispel magic. Otherwise regeneration or Dukar Hand Coral should work like normal. Dukar Hand Coral?

And that would be a valid target for removing arms?

After you have the 2 arms, is there any reason you couldn't replace one of the arms with another graft.
Spell Compendium changed the effect so that you only get one extra pair of arms regardless of your size, but you get 4 claw attacks and the "make a Will save or you get a -2 penalty for being disoriented/confused by too many limbs" was removed. However, the permanency rules in Savage Species still apply to the new version.




Wouldn't work. Natural weapons (i.e., claws) aren't special monk weapons, and can't be used in a flurry or added as secondary attacks after a flurry. If you add Unorthodox Flurry (claws), then... I'm not sure what happens. The new description of girallon's blessing says the claw attacks cannot be combined with manufactured weapons, and it's not clear if a monk making iterative/flurry attacks with his unarmed strike is using a manufactured weapon (counts as both). I meant with 3 levels of Shou Disciple, and natural claw attacks.


Follow the progression from Improved Natural Attack or use the table in the Rules Compendium. There are two "damage tracks", one for d6 and one for d8:

2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6*
2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8
(* = Improved Natural Attack only, not included in the Rules Compendium)So a colossal(+1) Monk with 2d8 damage would deal16d8?


Many Theoretical Optimization (TO) builds extrapolate this table out even further, but by RAW the table stops at 8d6 and 12d8. You can manipulate this a bit further by using the Large Monk Unarmed Damage table, Fist of the Forest, Superior Unarmed Strike/Monk's Belt, and possibly the Heavy Weapon property from Magic of Faerun.I think I got it, it doubles the last size. Thanks. Couldn't find it.


Possibly. Check out the Serpent Arm graft (12000 GP, Serpent Kingdoms p. 154). Add venomfire as a nice little garnish for LOLZ. Wait a sec, do you have to lose an arm to get that? Or can you just stick it on their shoulder or something.

And where's Venomfire.

Also, do sharptooth/Imp. Natural attack on, say, different claw attacks if you have two claws with different stats, or does it affect both?


Generally by reducing monk levels to zero and using TWF or Snap Kick to get an extra attack instead.I am also planning on using Snap Kick.

And snap kick has horrible damage without monk levels to back it up, does it not?

[Darrin]

Dukar Hand Coral?


Champions of Ruin p. 63. For 1600 GP, provides a variety of benefits, including the ability to regenerate lost body parts. However, you implant it under the skin of your hand, so then removing your *arms* and trying to regenerate them becomes somewhat problematic.




I meant with 3 levels of Shou Disciple, and natural claw attacks.


Ah. That would probably fix most of the issues with combining Flurry with natural weapons. The rules for Flurry are extremely vague, but I believe Shou Disciple 3 could stack on secondary natural attacks after his iteratives like normal.



So a colossal(+1) Monk with 2d8 damage would deal16d8?


Depends on the order you want to apply the effects, but starting with the large monk table and then applying INA/weapon size increases. (Note: Shape Soulmeld: Totem Avatar and Open Lesser Chakra: Shoulders can give you another size increase.) I'm not sure what sort of items/grafts/abilities this colossal monk has, so I'm not sure how you got up to 16d8.



Wait a sec, do you have to lose an arm to get that? Or can you just stick it on their shoulder or something.


Unlike some other arm grafts, Serpent Arm doesn't mention cutting anything off. Given how much Yuan-Ti love to play around with "abominations", I'd say you can just add them to whatever you happen to consider your torso.



And where's Venomfire.


Same book, Serpent Kingdoms. One of the few direct damage spells with no maximum damage cap.



Also, do sharptooth/Imp. Natural attack on, say, different claw attacks if you have two claws with different stats, or does it affect both?


I'd probably want to know how you got two different types of claws with different stats. But when I read through INA... it specifies one "form" of attack. I'm not sure if that would apply to all your different claw attacks... I could see it go either way, so that's probably another DM's call.



I am also planning on using Snap Kick.

And snap kick has horrible damage without monk levels to back it up, does it not?

Well, the usual argument is adding levels of monk still gives you horrible damage output. It's a lot easier for a Fighter or Barbarian to buff up their damage than a monk throwing immense resources into getting another couple dice on their unarmed strike.

[Keld Denar]

Its not a doubling. It follows a patern that alternates. Its a 4/3 increase followed by a 3/2 increase, followed by a 4/3 increase, and a 3/2 increase, etc.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, quick graft question. Is there a way to put Golem/Construct Arms on a humanoid character?

I've got no familiarity with grafts what so ever, and a friend relatively new to D&D and very knew to 3.X who was curious about getting metal arms on an otherwise organic character. So I though I'd ask. Thanks.

[Little Brother]

Its not a doubling. It follows a patern that alternates. Its a 4/3 increase followed by a 3/2 increase, followed by a 4/3 increase, and a 3/2 increase, etc.

It doubles the previous one. As in is level=x, it's x-1, x, 2(x-1), 2x, etc., is it not? It doubles the previous level.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, that progression works too. I find it easier to do the 3/2 and 4/3 multiplication, which simplies down to 2/1 over two increases (which gives your patern). Either works.

[Coidzor]

Ok, quick graft question. Is there a way to put Golem/Construct Arms on a humanoid character?

I've got no familiarity with grafts what so ever, and a friend relatively new to D&D and very knew to 3.X who was curious about getting metal arms on an otherwise organic character. So I though I'd ask. Thanks.

The Mighty Arms graft mentioned in this thread pretty much gives robot arms.

Depends upon what, exactly, he's wanting, beyond just having metal arms, which you can allow with handwavium, depending upon the nature of setting.

I didn't really see it there.

Old Style Grafts: "# There is no limit on how many or what kinds of grafts a creature can have."


New Style Grafts: Magic of Eberron: "# A single creature can have only 5 grafts.A single creature cannot have more than one type of graft (Construct, Deathless, Dragonic, Plant, or Elemental).
# The above does not prevent you from mixing different types outright: You can apply Elemental grafts to someone who all ready has an Aboleth graft, provided you do not have more than 5 Elemental grafts, and do not try to apply a Plant, Dragonic, Construct, or Deathless graft later on."


So it depends on how much you trust that source and what that means.

[Little Brother]

The Mighty Arms graft mentioned in this thread pretty much gives robot arms.

Depends upon what, exactly, he's wanting, beyond just having metal arms, which you can allow with handwavium, depending upon the nature of setting.


Old Style Grafts: "# There is no limit on how many or what kinds of grafts a creature can have."


New Style Grafts: Magic of Eberron: "# A single creature can have only 5 grafts.A single creature cannot have more than one type of graft (Construct, Deathless, Dragonic, Plant, or Elemental).
# The above does not prevent you from mixing different types outright: You can apply Elemental grafts to someone who all ready has an Aboleth graft, provided you do not have more than 5 Elemental grafts, and do not try to apply a Plant, Dragonic, Construct, or Deathless graft later on."


So it depends on how much you trust that source and what that means.Oh, I guess I derped, then.

Thanks.

[marcielle]

If you used unirthodox flurry with kukris, would you retain the crit range(nothing says you don't). If yes then Kaorti resined kukris just became the bestest monk weapon ever.

Edit: Derp, I just realized it said base attack instead of damage. I wonder if it's possible to put the scorpion kama enchantment on a kukri...