Swordsage or Paladin in Sorcadin Gish? (Sorcerage?)

[Hellwyrm]

I am playing the typical sorcadin build outline in a campaign (paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/sacred exorcist 8) which is currently at level 6 (Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4), and have had a thought about replacing the paladin in the build with a swordsage.

I have asked my DM if i can take the feat Aesthetic Mage and have the AC dependency change from wisdom to charisma, and he has said yes. This basically comes down to - Which is more important, AC or saves?

[Elric VIII]

If you strategically dip Swordsage and grab Martial Study a bit you can actually replace saves with Concentration checks.

Just be aware, the entire build will happen 1-2 levels later, since Swordsage 2/Sorcerer 4 only has +3 BAB, whereas Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 have +4 BAB. +4 BAB is the sweet spot that lets you dip Spellsword, then go into Abjurant Champion.

Also, if you want Cha to AC you can go for Battle Dancer 1/Fighter 1 and net 2 bonus feats (You don't need Ascetic Mage and Fighter gets a free one), along with full BAB.



Another good way to get Swordsage in there is with Bard. Swordsage 2/Bard 4 has +4 BAB, you can then go Swordsage 2/Bard 4/Spellsword 1/Abj Champ 2/Swordsage +1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champ +3/Sacred Exorcist 5.

[Hellwyrm]

Just be aware, the entire build will happen 1-2 levels later, since Swordsage 2/Sorcerer 4 only has +3 BAB, whereas Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 have +4 BAB. +4 BAB is the sweet spot that lets you dip Spellsword, then go into Abjurant Champion.

FAIL on my part. somehow missed the 3/4 attack bonus of Swordsage...... Bard sounds like a good idea, but it seems like i'm going to miss out on some the casting that i was aiming for..... oh well. Might just have to push everything back a level....
20th level will not be reached in this campaign so +16BAB is not required.

[Elric VIII]

FAIL on my part. somehow missed the 3/4 attack bonus of Swordsage...... Bard sounds like a good idea, but it seems like i'm going to miss out on some the casting that i was aiming for..... oh well. Might just have to push everything back a level....
20th level will not be reached in this campaign so +16BAB is not required.

What level are you going to reach? The Bard build catches up to Sorcerer 10 casting at level 11, and since you're taking full casting PrCs (advancing Sublime Chord) you remain only 1 level behind a Sorcerer over 11-20.

Over the course of levels 1-10 you get up to 3rd level spells, so you're a bit behind there. However, you have some IC to help out your melee. The only thing you're really missing out on is Wraithstrike + Power Attack. Snowflake Wardance/Slippers of Battledancing and some items that boost Music uses per day can help you out there.



As for AC bonus vs saves, I have to put my vote on saves; Divine Grace + Superior Resistance means you're a beast when it comes to saves, with an especially high Will and Fort, due to multiclassing. If you take Arcane Preparation this will allow you to prep Luminous Armor (and the Greater version). They get boosted by Abj Champ, plus you can swift cast Shield.



A good way to bypass the BAB problem is by making yourself a Charger. For a small investment you can greatly augment your damage potential. Take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a near-limitless supply of mounts (in case yours die). After all, Paladins need mounts. You could also use Phantom Steed. Basically, you have to choose if you want an extra feat or an extra spell known. For a Sorcerer, I would (personally) go for an extra spell known.

Take your Paladin levels such that you can get +8 in Ride (including dex bonus), then buy a military saddle (mundane item, PHB, +2 circumstance to ride). This is enough to both move and attack, and have a reasonable chance to Fast Dismount when you have a + Dex item and +Ride item.

Buy a Valorous Lance for 3x damage on a charge. Eventually you can invest in Battle Bridle (grats Mounted Combat feat, or Ride-by if you already have MC, and +5 competence to Ride) for 9000 gold. Eventually you can get Riding Boots (+5 competence, non-stacking, and you gain Ride-by) for 12000gp. When you get enough cash but a Lance of Faerun (grants you Spirited Charge) and make it Valorous for 4x damage on a mounted charge.

Season with Wraithstrike, add Power attack, to taste.

[Hellwyrm]

What level are you going to reach? The Bard build catches up to Sorcerer 10 casting at level 11, and since you're taking full casting PrCs (advancing Sublime Chord) you remain only 1 level behind a Sorcerer over 11-20.

Over the course of levels 1-10 you get up to 3rd level spells, so you're a bit behind there. However, you have some IC to help out your melee. The only thing you're really missing out on is Wraithstrike + Power Attack. Snowflake Wardance/Slippers of Battledancing and some items that boost Music uses per day can help you out there.



As for AC bonus vs saves, I have to put my vote on saves; Divine Grace + Superior Resistance means you're a beast when it comes to saves, with an especially high Will and Fort, due to multiclassing. If you take Arcane Preparation this will allow you to prep Luminous Armor (and the Greater version). They get boosted by Abj Champ, plus you can swift cast Shield.



A good way to bypass the BAB problem is by making yourself a Charger. For a small investment you can greatly augment your damage potential. Take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a near-limitless supply of mounts (in case yours die). After all, Paladins need mounts. You could also use Phantom Steed. Basically, you have to choose if you want an extra feat or an extra spell known. For a Sorcerer, I would (personally) go for an extra spell known.

Take your Paladin levels such that you can get +8 in Ride (including dex bonus), then buy a military saddle (mundane item, PHB, +2 circumstance to ride). This is enough to both move and attack, and have a reasonable chance to Fast Dismount when you have a + Dex item and +Ride item.

Buy a Valorous Lance for 3x damage on a charge. Eventually you can invest in Battle Bridle (grats Mounted Combat feat, or Ride-by if you already have MC, and +5 competence to Ride) for 9000 gold. Eventually you can get Riding Boots (+5 competence, non-stacking, and you gain Ride-by) for 12000gp. When you get enough cash but a Lance of Faerun (grants you Spirited Charge) and make it Valorous for 4x damage on a mounted charge.

Season with Wraithstrike, add Power attack, to taste.

While your charger build is certainly..... delicious you forgot one thing.... replace Wraithstrike with Rhino's Rush, and "waste" a turn casting True Strike (or just have haste active)..... The multipliers.... So shiny!

But my DM has said "NO!" to charger cheese past a certain point. His words "If you can reliably one shot yourself in the first round of combat, then don't bring it here"

I think level 11-12 is about when the campaign will end but I'll just have to wait and see.

On a side note, if Mage Armor and the greater version thereof is classified as Abjuration, would it be worth using a feat on Arcane Preparation just to nab another +2 to AC?

On a more important side note, how well would a couple of levels of swift blade fit into the standard sorcadin build? The feat requirements are a pain, but I could qualify at level 8 and then get the first 3 levels...... I don't know. Abjurant Champion is just so good!:smallbiggrin:

[Elric VIII]

While your charger build is certainly..... delicious you forgot one thing.... replace Wraithstrike with Rhino's Rush, and "waste" a turn casting True Strike (or just have haste active)..... The multipliers.... So shiny!

But my DM has said "NO!" to charger cheese past a certain point. His words "If you can reliably one shot yourself in the first round of combat, then don't bring it here"

Well, you can adjust the specifics to fit you group. You can go anywhere from simple 2x for a lance to 4x from a valorous lance of faerun.


I think level 11-12 is about when the campaign will end but I'll just have to wait and see.

Hmm... Well, the problem with Gishes is that they don't really start working until level 6-8, so be prepared to be just a Paladin/weak caster for a bit.


On a side note, if Mage Armor and the greater version thereof is classified as Abjuration, would it be worth using a feat on Arcane Preparation just to nab another +2 to AC?

If that's the case, no.


On a more important side note, how well would a couple of levels of swift blade fit into the standard sorcadin build? The feat requirements are a pain, but I could qualify at level 8 and then get the first 3 levels...... I don't know. Abjurant Champion is just so good!:smallbiggrin:

Swiftblade is an excellent class. Personally, I really onlylike the first 7-9 levels. It's a lot easier on a Wizard gish since they can get some Fighter bonus feats. I made a Wizard 6/Swiftblade 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade +7. I would rather 9th level spells than that last level of Swiftblade. I got weapon proficiency by being a lesser Tiefling (savage progression one, not PGtF), so I was an outsider.

[Edog]

Hellwyrm! This is your DM speaking!



My DM has said "NO!" to charger cheese past a certain point. His words "If you can reliably one shot yourself in the first round of combat, then don't bring it here"


I'm willing to accept it if it requires a few turns of buffing beforehand, though, but that still rules out the valorous lance.

Really, though, I don't think you need to be on here. Your character is optimised quite enough as is, thank you. Feel free to keep talking, but remember that if you start tearing through all the toughest monsters like tissue paper, I'm just going to make them stronger.

[Elric VIII]

Hellwyrm! This is your DM speaking!



I'm willing to accept it if it requires a few turns of buffing beforehand, though, but that still rules out the valorous lance.

Really, though, I don't think you need to be on here. Your character is optimised quite enough as is, thank you. Feel free to keep talking, but remember that if you start tearing through all the toughest monsters like tissue paper, I'm just going to make them stronger.

Well, I don't know your group. Perhaps if you were to give me some idea of an acceptable power level I could help Hellwyrm find something that fits what he wants without causing a breakdown of the group dynamic.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Honest question: What do you want your character to do?

Not just 'win the game' or 'destroy everything', but what kind of character do you want to build? Why is he a Gish? Does he self-buff then wade in? Does he party-buff? Does he blastomancy?

Letting us know what style you want to play in will help us determine something that will allow you to be a productive member of your group without irritating your GM.

[Hellwyrm]

Honest question: What do you want your character to do?

Not just 'win the game' or 'destroy everything', but what kind of character do you want to build? Why is he a Gish? Does he self-buff then wade in? Does he party-buff? Does he blastomancy?

Letting us know what style you want to play in will help us determine something that will allow you to be a productive member of your group without irritating your GM.

Yeah umm.... Not really my intention. I was just interested in what would be considered "better"/more useful, saves or AC and why.

I was looking mainly at the self-buff and wade in technique, currently the spells known/available level etc. means that party buffing isn't really an option, though i can chuck an occasional buff on someone else if need be..

If it came across as if i was trying to make a "me charge, you die" character, it was entirely by accident. Just looking at why certain features are integral to the build. Besides, after several rounds of buffing, I've only one-shotted creatures 3-5 levels below me....

[Elric VIII]

Yeah umm.... Not really my intention. I was just interested in what would be considered "better"/more useful, saves or AC and why.

I was looking mainly at the self-buff and wade in technique, currently the spells known/available level etc. means that party buffing isn't really an option, though i can chuck an occasional buff on someone else if need be..

Well, mass buffs are nice, too. Haste and Mass Snake's Swiftness are both great (although they don't stack together).


If it came across as if i was trying to make a "me charge, you die" character, it was entirely by accident. Just looking at why certain features are integral to the build. Besides, after several rounds of buffing, I've only one-shotted creatures 3-5 levels below me....

It's very hard to do that with just the methods I suggested. This characters use a combination of Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Battle Jump, and Pounce to get full PA damage x 6-8 for 3-4 attacks on a charge.

Just to give some perspective (at level 12):
Wielding a Valorous Lance.
Using Wraithstrike + PA.
Using GMW.
Assuming at least 22 Str (16 starting value, +4 item, +2 from levels).
Using Strongarm Bracers.

On a charge attack you deal 3*(2d6 + 9str + 3GMW + 2*PA).

You would have a BAB of 10, assuming you know you're going to hit (for accuracy buffs, etc) and PA for full (unlikely, but w/e) that's roughly 117 damage.

Assume a 12th level Fighter with a +3 Sword, Strongarm Bracers, and a +4 Str item. He will likely have 18 starting Str, and PA. He will have a Greatsword (since I assume that if super-charger is not okay for you, it's not okay for him, either).

On a full attack, assuming he PAs for half his BAB (since he may not have as many accuracy enhancers as you) he deals 3*(3d6 +10str +3enhancement + 2*PA). That's about 106-107 damage.

A Barbarian, with the same setup and Whirling Frenzy and Pounce deals 142 damage. He has the capacity to do much more, since he can Pounce and use Shock Trooper.

Just an FYI. Also, this is only enough damage to one-shot roughly half of the CR 12 creatures (af course, this assumes you hit, since the low-hp ones are the casters/non-melee creatures).

Now, I'm not saying you have to do this, but it just seems you're making it out to be more powerful than it actually is.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah umm.... Not really my intention. I was just interested in what would be considered "better"/more useful, saves or AC and why. More saves is better than more AC, because spells can insta-gib you, and NPC physical attacks generally won't. However, saves can be taken care of via a series of maneuvers from Diamond Mind, so you can have your cake and eat it too


I was looking mainly at the self-buff and wade in technique, currently the spells known/available level etc. means that party buffing isn't really an option, though i can chuck an occasional buff on someone else if need be. In that case, if you're just wanting self-buff and wade in, may I highly suggest Warblade/Suel Archanamach/Abjurant Champion? You're not even trying to do 9th level spells, but it does what you want it to do fairly well.


If it came across as if i was trying to make a "me charge, you die" character, it was entirely by accident. Just looking at why certain features are integral to the build. Besides, after several rounds of buffing, I've only one-shotted creatures 3-5 levels below me....

The trick here is to not need several rounds of buffing. This can be accomplished with War Weaver, to drop multiple buffs on the whole party as a move action. That's the best and easiest way, and it works extremely well with Suel Archanamach.

[hex0]

If you really want to be cheap about the Swordsage's ability not stacking with divine grace...seek out alternate versions of it like Witch Hunter or Akobo Warrior.

DM may slap you though.

[Morph Bark]

If you really want to be cheap about the Swordsage's ability not stacking with divine grace...seek out alternate versions of it like Witch Hunter or Akobo Warrior.

DM may slap you though.

You're thinking of Crusader.

[Edog]

Well, I don't know your group. Perhaps if you were to give me some idea of an acceptable power level I could help Hellwyrm find something that fits what he wants without causing a breakdown of the group dynamic.

Well, I don't really mind how powerful he gets, just so long as he can't one-shot the boss monsters--which would be tough, since they tend to have 150+ hp.

But, like I said, keep talking. He's responsible enough to make and use a character that won't destroy the game, overshadow the other players, etc. If you suggest something insanely powerful, he'll probably just not use it in this campaign. And that's fine.

[Elric VIII]

Well, I don't really mind how powerful he gets, just so long as he can't one-shot the boss monsters--which would be tough, since they tend to have 150+ hp.

But, like I said, keep talking. He's responsible enough to make and use a character that won't destroy the game, overshadow the other players, etc. If you suggest something insanely powerful, he'll probably just not use it in this campaign. And that's fine.

Well, a rather tame method of dealing damage is with the Greater Mighty Wallop spell from RotD. It's an hour/level buff that increases the base weapon damage of a bludgeoning weapon.

It gains a size increase based on the Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm) chart, one size level per 4 CLs. Before CL 20, this combines nicely with Strongarm Bracers. An ideal weapon for this is the Minotaur Greathammer, since it's a 2d6 /19-20 weapon. Although, Heavy Flail is decent, as well, and doesn't require EWP.

[Hellwyrm]

Well, a rather tame method of dealing damage is with the Greater Mighty Wallop spell from RotD. It's an hour/level buff that increases the base weapon damage of a bludgeoning weapon.

It gains a size increase based on the Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm) chart, one size level per 4 CLs. Before CL 20, this combines nicely with Strongarm Bracers. An ideal weapon for this is the Minotaur Greathammer, since it's a 2d6 /19-20 weapon. Although, Heavy Flail is decent, as well, and doesn't require EWP.

Sorry about not posting for a while, got a little busy...:smallfrown:

Yeah seen Greater Mighty Wallop looks rather nice, though as you said, tame. Which Greathammer is this? The one from MMIV? Or is it the other one (I think MMV?)
But overall the point in question is rather moot, as due to my stupidity and role playing, he died to an AoO from an ogre after marginally failing to kill a dragon he had chased, in the process leaving behind the entire party...........
Sometimes I get carried away with paladins.... :smalltongue:
All the help has been appreciated