beating that magic number

[leegi0n]

What do you think is the most effective way to take down a rogue/scout with a absurdly high AC and relfex saves? True Strike buffing the barbarians?

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Fortitude and Will saves and touch attacks?

[shadow_archmagi]

What do you think is the most effective way to take down a rogue/scout with a absurdly high AC and relfex saves? True Strike buffing the barbarians?

Target him with something that requires a Fort or Will save, obviously. Hold Person or Blindness, for my choices.

[Pilo]

Magic missile with fell drain on it (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1103-fell-drain.html). Maybe with arcane thesis and easy metamagic!

[Anderlith]

Catapults

Or make a wall with anyone of the shapespells or wall spells, cut him off from the rest & then to something permanent

[leegi0n]

Target him with something that requires a Fort or Will save, obviously. Hold Person or Blindness, for my choices.

he's got magic items that buff fort and will.....already tried that one. *sigh*

I'm thinking about an urban ranger/arcane archer build for it. Thoughts?

[deuxhero]

No save moves like Entagle (save only stops you from being held in place, nothing stops the slow) and Wall of Stone.

[Psyren]

Is his touch AC high as well? If not, level drain and penalize his ability scores with rays.

Does he have SR? If not, just use no-save no-attack roll spells like Force Missiles or Forcewave.

[Larpus]

Does the target have Uncanny Dodge?

If not then:

1. Rogueish character uses Invisibility.

2. Sneak up on him.

3. Instead of surprise attack, surprise bondage him (it helps if you wait 'till he sleeps).

4. Call the Barbarian in and join him while both of you beat the poor strapped bastard to a bloody pulp.

[Tr011]

Fortitude and Will saves and touch attacks?

Rogue/Scouts obviously have high touch ACs. But you can easily sneak them up to get them flat-footed since most their AC will come from high dex and dogde bonuses.
Another thing is to get an optimized bard for high buffing combos and Summon Monster. Or you simply get a sorcerer with Repeat Spell + Arcane Thesis(Magic Missle). Make sure to cast Blur before you fight (concealment counters precision damage like Skirmish and Sneak Attack, so they will make like 1d4 or 1d6+1 damage at best instead of their usual 5d6+craven).

[Eldan]

Make him lose his dex bonus to AC.

Ways to do that include:
Invisibility
He's climbing
He's grappled
He's prone
Feinting

I'd go with the feint, personally. Glibness and Improved Feint is all you need.

[Ernir]

Precision damage immunity + battlefield control.

[TriForce]

greater dispelling - all his magic items stop functioning for 1d4 rounds

after that, choose your pick, destruction, wail of the banshee, telekinesis him into a vat of acid or a symbol of death or something, soul bind, slay living, insanity, imprisonment

alternativly: summon monster spells. ofc they will only hit on a 20, but as long as you throw enough creatures at him it will happen eventully

alternativly: the power word stun/blind/kill spells, depending on the hp of the scout and the caster lvl of the opponent

alternativly: magic missle

[Telonius]

What level are you, and what level is the Rogue/Scout?

What you basically want to do is limit his mobility as much as possible. Tanglefoot Bags can do this at low levels. Depending on the resources available to him (and his/your level), spells like Grease, Waves of Exhaustion, Forcecage, Black Tentacles, Entangle, Snare, or even Reverse Gravity (if he has nothing to hold onto) can do this too. If you're lucky, Ray of Enfeeblement might leave him encumbered.

Summon something to Grapple with him, Sovereign Glue him to the floor, use any number of Save or Lose/Save or Suck stuff, Trip him, knock him Prone ...

If he can't move, he can't hurt you all that much.

[MesiDoomstalker]

(Greater) Dispel Magic + Quickened Dispel Magic should shut down at least 2 items. Figure out which are the strongest and target them.

Coup De Grace him while he sleeps. Auto-hit, auto-crit, Fort-or-die with a DC of 10+damage if the damage doesn't out right kill him. Combine with Greater or Superior Invisibility and he'll have trouble finding you if you fail and you can start harassing him with no-save spells that don't require attack rolls. I suggest a Light Pick, wielded 2-handed and full Power Attack if you have it. Or asking the Barbarian to do it while Raging (just make sure he holds off on the raging till right before he swings).

[Hyfigh]

Magic missile with fell drain on it (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1103-fell-drain.html). Maybe with arcane thesis and easy metamagic!

+1

Really, and spells that only attack SR would be fine too.

Does he have a high SR? What level are we talking? How high, precisely, are his Fort, Will, Ref, AC, Touch AC, etc?

[Cogidubnus]

If you're high level? Just cast Irresistible Dance on him. Prepare it in all your spell slots of the appropriate level and then hit with him whatever takes your fancy.

[Ashram]

Cloudkill + (No windows) Forcecage.

[leegi0n]

+1

Really, and spells that only attack SR would be fine too.

Does he have a high SR? What level are we talking? How high, precisely, are his Fort, Will, Ref, AC, Touch AC, etc?



No high SR. AC is in the mid 30's at level 8. Using Scout skirmish/Ranger. Two weapon. Touch AC I'm not sure of, I know Dex is probably highest ability. Fort would be #2.

[Chess435]

Time Stop + Cloudkill + (No windows) Forcecage.

Fixed that for you, otherwise he'd get a Reflex save.

[NNescio]

Fixed that for you, otherwise he'd get a Reflex save.

What reflex save? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm) This ain't Pathfinder.

(Discussions default to 3.5e unless otherwise specified. And everyone else on this thread has been assuming 3.5e and suggesting 3.5e methods.)

[Psyren]

Fixed that for you, otherwise he'd get a Reflex save.

If you use windowless, you'd have to cast the cloudkill first, else he would be protected from it.



(Discussions default to 3.5e unless otherwise specified. And everyone else on this thread has been assuming 3.5e and suggesting 3.5e methods.)

More accurately, this discussion defaults to 3.5 because he mentioned a 3.5 class (Scout.) The subforum itself has no default, other than narrowing it down to 3.5 or PF.

[Randomguy]

Summon something to kill him for you.

Cast split ray of stupidity (No save) on him until he turns into a vegetable, then coup-de-grace him repeatedly.

If you're an elf and hitting with touch attacks is a problem, the only feat you need to take levels in abjurant champion is combat casting, and that drasticly improves your BAB. You just need to wait until your poor BAB progression gets you a high enough BAB to enter.

Glitterdust stops him from hiding or going invisible, and blinds him if he fails a save, but that's just a bonus.

Get friends and battlefield control: Web, solid fog, freezing fog, wall of stone/force, the like. Stop him from moving too far and a fighter or barbarian will rip him to shreds.

Spellwarp sniper lets you remove the reflex save from an area spell, but you still need to hit with a touch attack.

Worst case scenario is pack your bags of holding and teleport to another continent.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

1) Warlock with HFW + Hindering Blast. Slow = he can't Skirmish, which shuts down his primary method of damage augmentation.

2) Force a grapple check, such as with Black Tentacles. Warlock can do this with Chilling Tentacles.

3) Start slinging around Fear effects. Look up Takahashi no Onisan in my desc, although there's far easier ways to set up the combo (Dread Necro + Aura of Terror + Fell Frighten comes to mind)

4) Glitterdust. Will save or be Blind. Blind = 50% concealment miss chance for all opponents. Concealment miss chance = precision-based damage (such as Skirmish) gets shut down

5) Swordsage with Child of Shadows stance, which gives a 20% concealment miss chance. See above for shutting down precision-based damage. Then go grab Pouncing Strike, Raging Mongoose, and twin kukri (with Improved Critical: Kukri feat).

[The Boz]

In the campaign I'm running right now, I have a crazed and deluded level 6 wizard NPC with only magic missile memorized in EVERY SPELL SLOT (with various metamagics applied). Surprisingly effective.

[Eldariel]

(Greater) Dispel Magic + Quickened Dispel Magic should shut down at least 2 items. Figure out which are the strongest and target them.

Coup De Grace him while he sleeps. Auto-hit, auto-crit, Fort-or-die with a DC of 10+damage if the damage doesn't out right kill him. Combine with Greater or Superior Invisibility and he'll have trouble finding you if you fail and you can start harassing him with no-save spells that don't require attack rolls. I suggest a Light Pick, wielded 2-handed and full Power Attack if you have it. Or asking the Barbarian to do it while Raging (just make sure he holds off on the raging till right before he swings).

CHAIN SPELL THAT DISPEL MAGIC, PEOPLE! You don't target 1 or 2 items, you target them all and him. Other than that, his magic items won't raise his Fort- and Will-saves enough to make them against actual Wizards. Take a level 9 Gray Elf/Drow/WhateverMakesSense Wizard casting Baleful Polymorph, for instance:
- 18 base Int + 2 Racial + 2 Levels + 2 Item = 24
- Level 5 spell
- Spell Focus: Transmutation ('cause he's a Transmuter, duh; Slows, Disintegrates, Balefuls, it's not that bad an SF and he needs it to enter Master Specialist anyways)

Save DC is 10 + 5 Spell Level + 7 Casting Stat + 1 Spell Focus = DC 23; I'd like to see a Rogue/Scout of an equivalent level do that without getting ridiculously lucky (and that's merely one standard action; next round can involve another Fort-save spell). This only if the attacker actually reasonably knows what he's dealing with, of course.

[Curmudgeon]

That depends a lot on whether the Rogue/Scout can be targeted. If they've got a way to Hide reliably then you're going to be mostly trying to locate them rather than attack them. A high Will save means Scrying won't work.

If you can see the Rogue, you can kill them with no save spells. If you can't, I suggest bribes and just learn to get along. :smallcool:

[Safety Sword]

That depends a lot on whether the Rogue/Scout can be targeted. If they've got a way to Hide reliably then you're going to be mostly trying to locate them rather than attack them. A high Will save means Scrying won't work.

If you can see the Rogue, you can kill them with no save spells. If you can't, I suggest bribes and just learn to get along. :smallcool:

If you can't; Welcome to Sneak Attack Land, population: Your spleen.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That depends a lot on whether the Rogue/Scout can be targeted. If they've got a way to Hide reliably then you're going to be mostly trying to locate them rather than attack them. A high Will save means Scrying won't work.

If you can see the Rogue, you can kill them with no save spells. If you can't, I suggest bribes and just learn to get along. :smallcool:

Glitterdust solves this problem. Toss it in the area he's likely to be in. Will save or be blind, but even if he makes the save, he's still outlined in glitter, making it easier to target him.

[Hyfigh]

I smell True Strike + Shivering Touch shennanigans. (Touch of Idiocy would likely work better...)
Level 8 = 4 BAB for the caster (pure caster - you could pull it off with a cleric, I suppose, through careful domain selection). +4 from Dex (at least 18 buffed with the dex +4 spell) and the +20 from True Strike means you'll likely land the touch attack pretty easily.
Scorching Ray could work, too.
What's his SR?
How exactly is he getting all saves, SR, and AC so high at level 8? (Not that 30 AC is big, but having seemingly great scores in all three seems unlikely to me)

[Jack_Simth]

Glitterdust solves this problem. Toss it in the area he's likely to be in. Will save or be blind, but even if he makes the save, he's still outlined in glitter, making it easier to target him.
He's carrying a lot of magic items. Arcane Sight will tell you, at a minimum, what square he's in.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He's carrying a lot of magic items. Arcane Sight will tell you, at a minimum, what square he's in.

Yes, but glitterdust removes the 50% miss chance which effective invisibility bestows...

[Hyfigh]

Yes, but glitterdust removes the 50% miss chance which effective invisibility bestows...

Hurray for win spells! :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

So will a bag of flour :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So will a bag of flour :smalltongue:

Glitterdust doesn't require an attack roll, and has a larger area of effect so as to ensure your target is at least SOMEWHERE in the area of effect...

[Eldariel]

He's carrying a lot of magic items. Arcane Sight will tell you, at a minimum, what square he's in.

Simple castings of Day/Level Nystul's Magic Aura can mask the item auras tho.

[Snowbluff]

A first level Warblade/Swordsage can use Sapphire Nightmare Strike, though you'll have to make a Concentration vs. AC check to make him flat footed and get an 1d6 extra damage. Shouldn't be too hard if you have Diamond Mind feat and a good Concentration Skill. There are probably other useful things for the Tome Of Battle to kick a lousy PHB2 class's ass.

[Curmudgeon]

Simple castings of Day/Level Nystul's Magic Aura can mask the item auras tho.
The Rogue/Scout probably wouldn't even need that many castings of Nystul's Magic Aura. A little lead lining in a scabbard will mask an undrawn sword. A single casting on a Heward's Handy Haversack will take care of the sack, and all the contents are off in some other space. Anything under clothing is out of line of sight, so there's no aura issue there.

[Hirax]

Practical metamagic+fell drain+sonic snap is a level 1 solution is you're a silverbrow human, and continues to be practical at higher levels, though obviously you can sub sonic snap for better spells, magic missile has already been mentioned. I haven't seen any mentions of mindsight for spotting the target. It can be had at level 6 and is pretty much game over.

[Jack_Simth]

Simple castings of Day/Level Nystul's Magic Aura can mask the item auras tho.
A few catches to that:
1) The Rogue/Scout has to think that way, and plan for it.
2) If he gets a wand to do it, he's paying 15 gp/item/day. If he gets a caster to do it, he's paying 10 gp/item/day... and has to frequent cities quite regularly. And he's got better things to spend money on.

The Rogue/Scout probably wouldn't even need that many castings of Nystul's Magic Aura. A little lead lining in a scabbard will mask an undrawn sword. A single casting on a Heward's Handy Haversack will take care of the sack, and all the contents are off in some other space. Anything under clothing is out of line of sight, so there's no aura issue there.
Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm) inherits from Detect Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm) which can penetrate barriers. Unless he convinced his DM to permit lead-lined clothing as a homebrew item, stuff under his clothes still gives a magic aura. Nevermind that the most likely item to buff his saves is a cloak.

[missmvicious]

This may be a bit too 1st level for you, but Flank, Feint, Aid Another.

Deny him his Dex bonus, and make it impossible for him to escape without taking attacks of opportunity. Then take your most accurate attacker and Aid him/her like it's going out of style. With a 4 man crew, this adds +6 to one attackers next attack and if you did your job right, he is denied his DEX as well. My team and I have taken out opponents we really shouldn't have beaten with this simple, martial technique.

Another way to go, is Thunderstone. It's a parlor trick to some, but my low DEX Level 10 Paladin used it plenty of times to gain the advantage in combat. It works like a charm against moving and shaking Rogues, because you don't have to throw against their AC. You just have to hit the square they're standing in, which is something a 1st level Commoner could do. The same applies for Tanglefoot Bag. Deny a Rogue their DEX, and you gain the advantage. Take away his ability to UMD (see deafened) and knock out his DEX and watch that Superman turn into Clark Kent in one round.

Then, it's time to tear him apart like the ravenous wolf you are.

[Hirax]

Unless he convinced his DM to permit lead-lined clothing as a homebrew item, stuff under his clothes still gives a magic aura. Nevermind that the most likely item to buff his saves is a cloak.

Eminently reasonable, simple frisking would detect it, so it's not exactly a wonderful solution if you need to go through any sort of security checkpoint. Once it's found out you've basically branded yourself as incredibly suspicious. I also see nothing unreasonable about making a lead sheath cast into something more durable. Lead's relative softness is entire reason it was used so prevalently for pipes and other things that required cavities.

[Curmudgeon]

1) The Rogue/Scout has to think that way, and plan for it. ... And he's got better things to spend money on.
A sneaky-by-nature character is certainly likely to think that way. And money has no use once you're dead, so there's never anything better to spend it on than self-preservation.

[NNescio]

This may be a bit too 1st level for you, but Flank, Feint, Aid Another.

Deny him his Dex bonus, and make it impossible for him to escape without taking attacks of opportunity. Then take your most accurate attacker and Aid him/her like it's going out of style. With a 4 man crew, this adds +6 to one attackers next attack and if you did your job right, he is denied his DEX as well. My team and I have taken out opponents we really shouldn't have beaten with this simple, martial technique.

Rogue has Uncanny Dodge and its improved variant. Plus Sense Motive and Tumble as class skills.

Also, Feinting only works for the feinter's (and not his allies') next attack and eats up a standard action. Good luck attacking.

Of course, what kind of Rogue lets himself be surrounded in the first place anyway?

(Assuming he's not up against a spellcaster who's messing around with him.)


Another way to go, is Thunderstone. It's a parlor trick to some, but my low DEX Level 10 Paladin used it plenty of times to gain the advantage in combat. It works like a charm against moving and shaking Rogues, because you don't have to throw against their AC.
DC 15 Fort. AKA "Won't work unless he rolls a Natural 1". And if it works, you penalize his Initiative (Which he already rolled). Oh and a 20% chance of spell failure if he actually casts spells. Whoop-de-doo.



You just have to hit the square they're standing in, which is something a 1st level Commoner could do. The same applies for Tanglefoot Bag. Deny a Rogue their DEX, and you gain the advantage. Take away his ability to UMD (see deafened) and knock out his DEX and watch that Superman turn into Clark Kent in one round.
Tanglefoot bags, unlike Thunderstones, require ranged attack rolls. And being Deafened doesn't affect UMD. Command Word ≠ Verbal Components, and UMD can bypass command word requirements anyway.

Another house-rule of yours?

[Gotterdammerung]

More specific please.

Why are you fighting him?

Is he gestalt?

If so, Are you gestalt too?

Do you know the specifics of his AC. If he is using combat expertise or fighting defensively or both, then he has a weakness to being sundered/disarmed, due to a flaw in the system. Sunder calls for opposed attack rolls, however these defensive maneuvers give a penalty to all attack rolls made in the round they are used. So if he is dumping attack roll in order to be defensive, a baby could hit his weapon. I know it doesn't make sense, right. Once he loses his weapon, you can take your time killing him as he won't pose much of a threat.
Or use range to your advantage. Combat expertise can not be used if he can't reach anyone to attack. I can't remember if it can be used with ranged weapons but I don't think it can.


If he is not using those defensive options then he shouldn't have a 30+ touch AC at such a low lvl with those classes. Attack his touch AC.

[missmvicious]

Another house-rule of yours?

No. Sheesh. I was just offering a suggestion. Why do I keep getting the "another house rule of yours?" question so often. It's starting to seem a little passive aggressive. I was reading the Players handbook at the time when I posted the suggestion. Maybe I misinterpreted the RAW, which is possible, but how did I get tagged as this hard-core homebrewing house-ruler. Just because I rig solutions and don't take the "throw a 9th level spell at it and see if it splats" route doesn't mean I don't play by the rules. Almost every campaign I've been in has been at levels 1-5 (pardon the occasional L10 and L20), so I think differently than the gestalt munchkins do. I prefer a scrapper who has to think outside the box just to survive rather than build an OP demi-god who can one-hit solo a Tarrasque. I don't see how jerry-rigging a solution is the same as house-ruling. House ruling means that you change the rule as written to something that fits the campaign's needs. Jerry-rigging means you improvise an unusual or indirect solution to a problem that you couldn't have survived directly. It's happened in many sessions I've been in before: a team of level 1s took on a level 10 in a campaign I was in and beat it, fair and square because of improvisation, strategy, and a bit of luck. And we played by RAW. What's so bad about that?

Can't we all just get along?

[Tenno Seremel]

Psion/Wilder/Psychic Warrior with Detect Hostile Intent cannot be surprised/caught flat-footed (unless mind-affecting immune) and detects hostile creatures within 30 ft. emanation (direction to them) for 10 min./level per manifesting. No save / no PR.

[Jack_Simth]

A sneaky-by-nature character is certainly likely to think that way. And money has no use once you're dead, so there's never anything better to spend it on than self-preservation.
Yet he still has resource limits.

Using Magic Aura to mask your items, when it's not just one use a day of your next-to-weakest "renewed daily" resource (as it is for the Wizard or Sorcerer who picks the spell) costs regular cash... and it's only useful if you think someone or something is going to attempt to locate you via that specific method. If you don't have your own casting, and if you have 3 items to cover, you're spending 45 gp/day (on average). We don't know how many magic items this guy has worn, but in general, the number of items goes up as level does (you've got 12 body slots, potentially a shield and multiple weapons, and the occasional slotless item to be equipped).

The sneak has a budget of some kind - a resource limit. Different methods and goals are in competition with each other for the resources he has to spend (it is decidedly unlikely that his only goal is to hide his magic items from magical detection...). He's probably balancing saves vs. SR vs. AC vs. attack vs. damage vs. skill boosters vs. HP boosters vs. utility items vs. day after pills vs. other potential concerns vs. this (if he thinks about this at all).

Hiding the aura of your magical items, if you can't cast the spell yourself, is something that's a continual drain on permanent resources to manage (costs gold per time unit covered), is a defense against exactly one strategy by a particular type of caster (and that strategy isn't particularly often employed even by the people that can), and does nothing for you if that particular type of caster doesn't attempt that strategy.

Now, if the sneak is specifically gearing for this fight, knows approximately when it'll happen, and can pick up the wand at the local Bloodbath and Beyond, then yes, it is probably worth the money as a precaution. In other circumstances, the continuous resource cost and the small probability of encountering exactly what this method stops is sufficiently slight that yes, the sneak has better things to spend money on.


Eminently reasonable, simple frisking would detect it, so it's not exactly a wonderful solution if you need to go through any sort of security checkpoint. Once it's found out you've basically branded yourself as incredibly suspicious. I also see nothing unreasonable about making a lead sheath cast into something more durable. Lead's relative softness is entire reason it was used so prevalently for pipes and other things that required cavities.
Reasonable, yes... but there's a reason I said it would need to be house-ruled in.

First, you have to worry about line-of-effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect); a single square foot gap in your defenses - say, for you face, hands, or feet... oh yes, and the gap need not be contiguous... means that your lead barrier doesn't actually stop anything. If you don't house-rule that issue away, you're looking at what amounts to full plate in lead.

Second, you've got the issue of "OK, so what are the mechanics?" "How much does this cost?" "What kind of Arcane Spell Failure does it carry?" "What kind of Armor Check Penalty does it carry?" "Does it require any funny proficiencies to act safely in combat with something you can't exactly get off the local shelf to have practiced with in the past?" "What's the skill check DC to make this stuff?" and possibly a few others, which require DM answers.

Is it reasonable to make it happen? Sure. But it requires a lot of DM collaboration and isn't supported by the rules that exist in the books. Additionally, most DM's will give the answers to the questions that it requires different answers. This makes that method very much the house rule.

[Hirax]

You're right, lead ultimately is bad option for the rogue, but we're losing sight of the primary reason why: all the other things that have been posted that are no save, no attack roll, only line of effect required (sonic snap, magic missile, and the like). Wizard5/mindbender1 lays waste to any low level humanoid; they won't be able to afford immunity to negative levels or hide from mindsight.

[docnessuno]

Rebuke, final (from spell compendium)
Will or die. Passed the save? Too bad, you are stunned.

Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

Cast it if you can or get a scroll.

Don't abuse that trick or you will only encounter enemys immune to stunning.

[leegi0n]

I smell True Strike + Shivering Touch shennanigans. (Touch of Idiocy would likely work better...)
Level 8 = 4 BAB for the caster (pure caster - you could pull it off with a cleric, I suppose, through careful domain selection). +4 from Dex (at least 18 buffed with the dex +4 spell) and the +20 from True Strike means you'll likely land the touch attack pretty easily.
Scorching Ray could work, too.
What's his SR?
How exactly is he getting all saves, SR, and AC so high at level 8? (Not that 30 AC is big, but having seemingly great scores in all three seems unlikely to me)

I agree and I'm gonna have to look at the character sheet to confirm. This is mostly my fault for being so lax with the builds that my players have. Most are new to the game and don't know about multiclassing their brains out....nor do they care. It makes it a strong STORY based game, which is where I shine as a DM. However, the balance of the party (as it pertains to combat) is shifting because of me letting this go unchecked. Result: I have to let him know that I'm on top of it.

Thanks for all the input.

I've got a warlock/thrall of juiblex (CR15) I think I'm gonna use to enforce it. Any ideas on that? I also have a Dread Necro Ogre Mage (CR13) (which I was saving for a bigger event) that I'm considering introducing early. Suggestions?

[Garwain]

Introduce him to Mimic.

[Medic!]

Or a Chaos Beast...it's like rust monsters for people!

[Venger]

if he has a high AC, he can get it from either armor (since he's a rogue, I assume he's wearing a MCS for +4) and dex (lvl 8 rogue, assuming he rolled/bought an 18 and put his 2 ability boosts there, that's +5) that puts him at 19, I guess he has a lotta rings of protection or exalted bonuses or something, but if you don't know, you can't really tell us, which is fine.

if his touch AC is much lower than 30, then touch attacks are useful. things like enervation are good against everything

rogues traditionally have poor will saves due to their tendency to dump wisdom and most spells are will. most necro SoDs are fort, but if his saves to both of those are good (assuming a plus x vest of resistance) then that throws something of a wrench into that plan.

getting his saves down is probably the easiest way to go. at lvl 8, assuming he's a straight rogue, they won't be all that great. base is 2/6/2, let's assume that he has a +5 vest or resistance, which essentially wipes out his WBL at lvl 8) that'll take him to 7/11/7, barring any ability boosts. everyone needs con, so let's say 1 or 2, dex is presumably his primary stat, and rogues always dump wis, giving us the likely arrangement of 9/16/7

will is probably your best bet. spam "bestow curse" as many times as you can and pick the "-4 penalty to saves, etc." first to make him more likely to fail subsequent curses. lower his dex by -6 after that to make him easier for your barbarian to land a hit on.

is there anything else you know about him? the more info you give, the more advice we can offer

[Curmudgeon]

Yet he still has resource limits.

The sneak has a budget of some kind - a resource limit. Different methods and goals are in competition with each other for the resources he has to spend (it is decidedly unlikely that his only goal is to hide his magic items from magical detection...).
One way of allocating sneak resources is with a 1-level dip into Cloistered Cleric. With the Magic domain the sneak will be able to use all wands of both Cleric and Wizard spells, thus freeing up skill points that would otherwise be required for Use Magic Device. Oh, and Magic has Nystul's Magic Aura as its 1st-level spell, so your Heward's Handy Haversack is concealed from detection every day (all its contents too, of course) with no gp required. That's a lost Rogue level, but you're also getting another domain and free Knowledge Devotion if you convert the Knowledge domain. You can even regain your full sneak attack if you take Sacred Outlaw to stack your Rogue and Cleric levels. And now the sneak can use wands of Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) for help with those tougher skilled jobs.

Is it reasonable to make it happen? Sure. But it requires a lot of DM collaboration and isn't supported by the rules that exist in the books. Not much DM collaboration is required if you think things through, I think.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Just because I rig solutions and don't take the "throw a 9th level spell at it and see if it splats" route doesn't mean I don't play by the rules.I don't know ... sounds like a house rule to me. I mean, spells lower level than 9th? C

[Chess435]

What reflex save? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm) This ain't Pathfinder.

(Discussions default to 3.5e unless otherwise specified. And everyone else on this thread has been assuming 3.5e and suggesting 3.5e methods.)

Sorry, I could have sworn Forcecage allowed a Reflex save. My mistake.

[deuxhero]

A few catches to that:
1) The Rogue/Scout has to think that way, and plan for it.
2) If he gets a wand to do it, he's paying 15 gp/item/day. If he gets a caster to do it, he's paying 10 gp/item/day... and has to frequent cities quite regularly. And he's got better things to spend money on.


Eternal Wand

[Jack_Simth]

One way of allocating sneak resources is with a 1-level dip into Cloistered Cleric. With the Magic domain the sneak will be able to use all wands of both Cleric and Wizard spells, thus freeing up skill points that would otherwise be required for Use Magic Device. Oh, and Magic has Nystul's Magic Aura as its 1st-level spell, so your Heward's Handy Haversack is concealed from detection every day (all its contents too, of course) with no gp required. That's a lost Rogue level, but you're also getting another domain and free Knowledge Devotion if you convert the Knowledge domain. You can even regain your full sneak attack if you take Sacred Outlaw to stack your Rogue and Cleric levels. And now the sneak can use wands of Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) for help with those tougher skilled jobs.
That's one item covered per day - more, if you don't mind not using some of them while sneaking - for the resource cost of a level spent (although as the Rogue capstone is "You multiclassed, right?", that one level isn't a big deal), and possibly the expenditure of a feat to not fall behind on sneak attack. If you want more items covered, or to be making use of those Gloves of Dexterity while you're using a Dexterity-based skill to avoid notice, you're still going to need to grab wands, scrolls, eternal wands, custom items, or more feats (like Practiced Spellcaster, so you can get your Cleric caster level to around 5, and get five items covered by your 1/day casting). Again: It's a resource expenditure, and the rogue has a resource limit. If the rogue has reason to think that someone is going to attempt to locate him specifically by the magical auras of his equipment in some specific time frame, then yes, it makes sense to grab the wands, or hire a few castings, or dip a different class and spend two feats, or some such. Otherwise, he really does have better things to spend his resources on.

When it's something you can cast yourself, it's not nearly as big of a deal - the Wizard-10 doesn't really have too terribly much to do with his 1st level spell slots that would be worth the action cost, so dropping one per day into Magic Aura to get ten items hidden from magical detection on the off chance he needs to hide makes sense.

For someone intending to play a Rogue proper, it's only expected to happen if he requests it from a party caster or if he has reason to think that's a method that's going to be used to find him.



Not much DM collaboration is required if you think things through, I think.
Check the context. The specific bit you quoted before this statement of yours was specifically in regards to lead-lined clothing denying line-of-effect to your stuff for purposes of divinations. The lead suit does require DM collaboration, unless you can find such a suit already written up in an approved source somewhere. Without DM collaboration, you can't bring it mechanically into the game - cost, ASF, ACP, weight, HP, hardness, and so on. The bit about requiring DM collaboration was not in reference to making use of Magic Aura.


Eternal Wand
An Eternal Wand (Magic Item Compendium) is a 2/day effect, that costs 820 gp for a 1st level spell at caster level 1; you've got an extra 410 gp surcharge for every magical item you want to have on you while sneaking. You get a marginally better deal with an eternal wand of Extended Magic Aura (4,420 for 2 uses/day, 6 days per use, = 368.3333... gp/item, blocks of 6 items).

Long term, if you plan on doing this regularly, then yes, it's a decent investment. But again, it's a resource cost. That 4,420 gp to prevent one highly specific method of penetrating your hiding is a +2 Cloak of Resistance you didn't get, or an Amulet of Health +2 you didn't get, or gloves of Dexterity +2 you didn't get, or a +2 you didn't put on your Mithral Chain Shirt, or five and a half wands of Lesser Vigor you didn't buy to heal yourself up after taking a hit, or some other expense. And it helps you with ... exactly one thing that might penetrate your hide check that most people won't try in the first place.

Oh yes, and there's the pesky issue that not all DM's permit all sources. It's entirely reasonable for the DM to say something along the lines of "No drawing from items I don't own in meatspace", and not have the book that the item you want is in.

Again: If the rogue has reason to think this will be attempted, then it makes sense. Otherwise, it doesn't.