Ranged Touch attack = Sneak Attack?

[Aerlock]

I've got a question and can't seem to work it out myself or find a post here that answers my question. If I'm a Rogue/Master Thrower with the Weak Spot thrown weapon trick, which turns all my thrown attacks into ranged touch attacks, does that mean I'm doing Sneak Attack damage on all my thrown attacks?

- Aerlock

[Ravens_cry]

Without any other information, you would have to meet the other specifics to do so, i.e. within thirty feet, deny the enemy dexterity.

[elpollo]

Touch attacks ignore armour bonuses. Sneak attacks require that the target be denied their dexterity bonus. You do not automatically get sneak attacks from touch attacks (but obviously still can as normal).

[Tsuzurao]

I've got a question and can't seem to work it out myself or find a post here that answers my question. If I'm a Rogue/Master Thrower with the Weak Spot thrown weapon trick, which turns all my thrown attacks into ranged touch attacks, does that mean I'm doing Sneak Attack damage on all my thrown attacks?

- Aerlock

You aren't denying the opponent their Dexterity bonus to their AC with ranged touch attacks - you're denying them their armour, natural armour, and shield bonuses. Therefore, you aren't meeting the requirements for a Sneak Attack (attacking an opponent you flank or attacking an opponent who has been denied their Dexterity modifier to their AC) just by using the Weak Spot trick.

[Aerlock]

Touch attacks ignore armour bonuses. Sneak attacks require that the target be denied their dexterity bonus. You do not automatically get sneak attacks from touch attacks (but obviously still can as normal).

D'OH! My brain had it that touch attacks denied Dex and not armor/shield/NA for some reason. That clears this up for me. Thanks!

- Aerlock

[The Glyphstone]

Indeed...attacking touch AC makes Dex pretty much the only thing they do get aside from various magical/miscellaneous bonuses.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Having said that, Sneaky Shot *DOES* enable sneak attacks

[Keld Denar]

Having said that, Sneaky Shot *DOES* enable sneak attacks

Wouldn't that be Shneekey Shot? :smallcool:

[Person_Man]

So it's fairly easy to do exactly what you want. Whatever 5/Master Thrower 5. Buy a Ring of Blinking and take the Mage Slayer feat, or use a Wand of Greater Invisibility, or deny your target their Dex some other way. Excluding special abilities and powers your target might have, every attack roll will be rolling against an AC 10ish (they might have special bonuses which still count somehow), and every attack should qualify for Sneak Attack (and your other 2 Master Thrower Tricks beyond Weak Spot), assuming that your target otherwise qualifies for Sneak Attack damage (is within 30 ft, not immune to crits, etc).

But from a metagame perspective, it's generally a bad idea. If you always hit, then your DM is just going to find a way to ramps up the difficulty of some/most combats in another way, simply to keep things interesting and challenging. In general, you want to avoid "always on" offensive abilities, and instead find reliable/useful/powerful/fun activated abilities, like maneuvers, spells, vestiges, soulmelds, psionics, etc.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wouldn't that be Shneekey Shot? :smallcool:Okay, you win a Rim Shot (http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true) for that one.

But seriously, Sneaky Shot is Slight of Hand vs Sense Motive (something almost no NPC gets) to declare opponent denied dex bonus to AC. Not 'flat-footed', which Uncanny Dodge fixes, flat declared Denied Dex Bonus To AC. Which makes it *VERY* rogue-friendly. And can be taken as your first skill trick, no less.

[Safety Sword]

Having said that, Sneaky Shot *DOES* enable sneak attacks

Well, I'll be...

How have I never noticed this before?!! :smallfurious:

Edit: Thrown weapons... now I know why i wasn't interested :smalltongue:

[Aerlock]

So it's fairly easy to do exactly what you want. Whatever 5/Master Thrower 5. Buy a Ring of Blinking and take the Mage Slayer feat, or use a Wand of Greater Invisibility, or deny your target their Dex some other way. Excluding special abilities and powers your target might have, every attack roll will be rolling against an AC 10ish (they might have special bonuses which still count somehow), and every attack should qualify for Sneak Attack (and your other 2 Master Thrower Tricks beyond Weak Spot), assuming that your target otherwise qualifies for Sneak Attack damage (is within 30 ft, not immune to crits, etc).

I don't quite follow how the Mage Slayer feat helps this, but your other advice has been helpful. I may just end up going Wand of Greater Invisibility route.


But from a metagame perspective, it's generally a bad idea. If you always hit, then your DM is just going to find a way to ramps up the difficulty of some/most combats in another way, simply to keep things interesting and challenging. In general, you want to avoid "always on" offensive abilities, and instead find reliable/useful/powerful/fun activated abilities, like maneuvers, spells, vestiges, soulmelds, psionics, etc.

This is for a 20th level Gestalt cheese game so I'm not worried about the DM ramping up the difficulty too much. I'm throwing about 18 ranged touch attacks a round with a base to hit before iterative attacks and weapon bonuses of over 30, half of them being Wounding so the addition of always on Ranged Sneak Attack is just icing on the cake. I already have pretty much always on Melee Sneak Attack using a route similar to the Killer Gnome builds. As for other nifty things to do, between 20 levels of Pathfinder SoulKnife on one side and 3.5 Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower/Whisperknife/Fighter on the other and all the gear of a 20th level char I've got more than one trick up my sleeve. :smallbiggrin:

- Aerlock

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Mage Slayer lets you ignore miss chances, which (on top of making it hard to hit) negate sneak attack.

[Keld Denar]

Mage Slayer itself does not, but its a Prereq for Pierce Magical Concealment. PMC just states that it negates miss chance. Its doesn't specify that that miss chance must come from an opponent, just that it has to come from magic. If you are Blinking, you normally have a 20% miss chance due to a small chance you are ethereal at the exact moment you try to hit someone. PMC sees this miss chance and negates it, even if you are the generator.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Mage Slayer itself does not, but its a Prereq for Pierce Magical Concealment. PMC just states that it negates miss chance. Its doesn't specify that that miss chance must come from an opponent, just that it has to come from magic. If you are Blinking, you normally have a 20% miss chance due to a small chance you are ethereal at the exact moment you try to hit someone. PMC sees this miss chance and negates it, even if you are the generator.1. I meant "The Mage Slayer line."
2. Really? That's a reading of the spell I hadn't seen before.

[tyckspoon]

1. I meant "The Mage Slayer line."
2. Really? That's a reading of the spell I hadn't seen before.

If you didn't know that was in Blink, you're just not reading the whole spell- it's quite plainly stated and requires no interpretation. If you mean how it interacts with Pierce Magical Concealment, well, blame it on PMC being really really broadly worded; it basically goes: Are your attacks subject to a miss chance? Is the source of the miss chance magical? Ignore it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you didn't know that was in Blink, you're just not reading the whole spell- it's quite plainly stated and requires no interpretation. If you mean how it interacts with Pierce Magical Concealment, well, blame it on PMC being really really broadly worded; it basically goes: Are your attacks subject to a miss chance? Is the source of the miss chance magical? Ignore it.Yeah, I meant PMC, which is a feat, not a spell :smallfrown:. I'm not making myself clear... sleep deprivation does that. But wow, PMC is quite nice. Does that mean you'd ignore the miss chance granted by concealment from a (magically conjured) fog cloud?

[Curmudgeon]

Having said that, Sneaky Shot *DOES* enable sneak attacks
That should be without the plural, I think. Sneaky Shot requires a move action before each attack, which is enough of a limitation that I don't think you'll need to worry too much about your DM throwing only sneak-immune foes at you. One shot/round with high damage reliability (within 30', when there's no concealment, against most but not all types of enemies, when your Sleight of Hand beats the opponent's Spot) is good, but not game-breaking. Your Rogue/Master Thrower isn't going to cause issues, if you steer clear of those more problematic (Pierce Magical Concealment + Ring of Blinking) suggestions. :smallsmile: