[3.5]: Best gestalt combo of low tier classes?

[deuxhero]

The tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) suggests letting low tier classes be gestalted with another class. What does everyone think are good combos in such a system?

Obvious you aren't going to be reaching tier 2 this way (though if you can somehow, I'd be interested to know)


Dread Necromancer//Warrior makes good use of the DN's self healing to be a good tank.

Wildshape Ranger//Adept (or Gleaner) is a mini druid on a great chaise. If you abuse the fact that a Gestalt is technically one class with the strengths of both instead of two classes at once (thus Adept spell slots are "ranger" spell slots), Sword of the Arcane order use MAY get you into low tier 2 and a DMG upside the head.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm a fan of Soulborn//Soulknife, myself.

[Hirax]

Well, define low tier, and how are you going to treat prestige classes? The tier 5/6 side is going to mean nothing because someone could simply do this:

T3caster//Paladin of tyranny or slaughter2/humanparagon3/urpriest

Suddenly they've got the full cleric spell list, turn attempts for DMM and other shenanigans, and plenty of utility spells and abilities from beguiler or dread necro.

[deuxhero]

As the tier system for class defines them.

As for PRCs, it could always take the Tier System for PRCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198) literally for gestalt or disable it when prcing. Thus Ur-Preist from Paladin of Tyranny is t3 (so NPC classes only on the other side), and has a normal Ur-Preist build with some minor arcane casting.


The idea isn't legal anyways, as Paladin of Tyranny isn't an NPC class.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warlock//Shadowcaster is a lot of fun.

CW Samurai//Fighter is good up to around level 10. Then the abilities rather wane. However, Zhent + Mass Staredown + Imperious Command = good times. Swift-action area-effect lockdown is good.

Monk//Pal/Crusader is fun.

[Hirax]

The idea isn't legal anyways, as Paladin of Tyranny isn't an NPC class.

I don't see where it was mentioned that the second class needs to be an NPC class, but it matters little for the point I was making, that you need to restrict prestige classes heavily to make any sort of tier guidelines work. Sub paladin for warrior to get feats instead of divine grace and little changes.

As I've posted in other threads though, don't waste time on tier restrictions. They're overly broad and are going to shut out more options than they need to. You could create an effective list of exceptions and rules to manage power if you wanted to sit down and write such a novel, but it's always going to be more productive just talk things over with your players and get them on the same page as far as power. That way nobody needs to maneuver around houserules in a system that's a rule quagmire already.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Assuming you mean "Option #2: Partial Gestalt," put Adept with any Tier 3-4 class that can afford a decent Wis score. Don't forget about Improved Familiar (DMG and CW versions).

[hex0]

Fighter//Monk, because full bab is dandy. Crushing strike. Preferably kensai variant fighter, too.

[Psyren]

Rogue//Lurk - sneak attack and psionic sneak attack explicitly stack. The Lurk's augments (and powers) shore up numerous rogue weaknesses, such as sneak attacking undead/constructs, striking incorporeal targets, and even turning off targets' Dex to AC.

[gorfnab]

Paladin // Dragon Shaman - Cha synergy with lots of healing and decent party buffing options.

[avr]

No mention of the simple Fighter // Rogue? Suddenly your Rogue has the feats and HP to make real use of sneak attack.

[deuxhero]

Because Daring Outlaw does that RAW.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Assuming you mean "Option #2: Partial Gestalt," put Adept with any Tier 3-4 class that can afford a decent Wis score. Don't forget about Improved Familiar (DMG and CW versions).

Serenity Paladin 2/Monk 2/Soulknife 2/Pious Templar 4/Soulbow 10//Adept 20. You need as much Dexterity as it takes to qualify for the archery feats you want, and then you can put everything else into Wisdom. Pick a deity that favors the longbow and you're capable of dealing respectable damage consistently while having a good selection of low-level utility and healing spells. A pseudodragon is an awesome Improved Familiar pick.

Reckon that's Tier 3. You could drop Adept and Monk for Ninja if you don't suck enough, and be a very nasty Tier 4.

What tier do racial HD and LA count as? VOP Saint Gold dragon//Paladin/Monk is scary.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Because Daring Outlaw does that RAW.

Unfortunately, no it doesn't. It just lets Fighter and Rogue levels stack for purposes of qualifying for Fighter only feats... it doesn't give you any extras...

[gkathellar]

Serenity Paladin 2/Monk 2/Soulknife 2/Pious Templar 4/Soulbow 10//Adept 20. You need as much Dexterity as it takes to qualify for the archery feats you want, and then you can put everything else into Wisdom.

If you go with this, you should find a way to get a level of Shiba Disciple in there.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

If you go with this, you should find a way to get a level of Shiba Disciple in there.

My Google-fu is failing me. What book is that in?

You can easily burn a level of Pious Templar, since you get everything you really want out of three levels-- the fourth is just a Fighter bonus feat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My Google-fu is failing me. What book is that in?

You can easily burn a level of Pious Templar, since you get everything you really want out of three levels-- the fourth is just a Fighter bonus feat.

Oriental Adventures, it's strongly setting specific and has a lot of feat tax prerequisites (Alertness, Combat Expertise, Iron Will), but at the first level you get to add your Wisdom bonus to attack and damage rolls.

[HunterOfJello]

The best options to go with would probably include:

Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X (Daring Outlaw)

Warmage

Dungeoncrasher Zentarim Fighter/Barbarian (with alternative class features mixed in)

Ranger/Scout (Swift Hunter and some Urban Class Features thrown in along with other ACFs)

Aristocrat dip to gain Iajutsu Focus and some other good skills put together with Able Learner

[Godskook]

I don't see where it was mentioned that the second class needs to be an NPC class, but it matters little for the point I was making, that you need to restrict prestige classes heavily to make any sort of tier guidelines work. Sub paladin for warrior to get feats instead of divine grace and little changes.

Found it for you(was the first place gestalt was mentioned in the link):


Option #2: Partial Gestalt. Tier 1s and 2s are normal. Tier 3s and 4s may gestalt their levels with an NPC class of their choice (Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior). Tier 5s and 6s may gestalt their levels with any other Tier 5 or 6 class of their choice, or Adepts. Result? Again, a healthy power boost for the low Tiers. Suddenly the Rogues can have full BAB and lots of hitpoints, and the Monks can have Fighter powers too. Very handy. Plus, multiclassing works... it's just that if you start as a Fighter//Monk and want to take a level of, say, Ranger, that level must have an NPC class on the other side. If for some reason you wanted Sorcerer, you wouldn't be gestalt at all in that level. Lord knows Fighters get a lot better when they can be Fighter//Monks or Fighter//CA Ninjas or whatever.

[Gnaeus]

In gestalt, you usually want 9th level spells/powers/maneuvers coupled with a class that supports them or gives them other options.

Dread Necro or Beguiler + Warrior
Any Tob Class + Adept
Healer + a tier 5 fighting class (fighter, paladin, Monk, knight).
Factotum + Warrior or Adept would also have to be included, because gestalt factotums are awesome

[Cespenar]

Monk//Adept should be the new Monk.

[JaronK]

Monk//Fighter's a pretty obvious one. Those two classes work together well. Warblade//Expert could be fun with the whole Iaijutsu Focus thing, as could any other martial melee class with Expert. And Dread Necromancer//Warrior could definitely be useful. Also, dipping Commoner for Infested with Chickens could be awesome.

JaronK

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

By deux's interpretation of spellcasting sources, would a Duskblade//Adept be able to channel Adept spells? MAD, but still quite nice. Also, Beguiler//Warrior is approaching druid levels of outshining at level 1.

[Psyren]

Monk//Psywar should be the new Monk.

FTFY


I'm a fan of Soulborn//Soulknife, myself.

I do like this one too.

[JaronK]

Monk//Psywar wouldn't be legal under this system. Psywar isn't a Tier 5-6 class.

JaronK

[Psyren]

Monk//Psywar wouldn't be legal under this system. Psywar isn't a Tier 5-6 class.

JaronK

Was responding specifically to "X should be the new monk" rather than within the confines of your tier system.

[JaronK]

I that cause, Unarmed Swordsage//Psywar. Go nuts.

JaronK

[deuxhero]

By deux's interpretation of spellcasting sources, would a Duskblade//Adept be able to channel Adept spells? MAD, but still quite nice. Also, Beguiler//Warrior is approaching druid levels of outshining at level 1.

I think Duskblades can do it anyways and the ability doesn't require it be a Duskblade spell. I don't think Adept (or Gleaner, prehaps Magewright has some?) has many spells eligible for channel that work.

Note I warned of DMGs with that interpretation.

[Fax Celestis]

By deux's interpretation of spellcasting sources, would a Duskblade//Adept be able to channel Adept spells? MAD, but still quite nice. Also, Beguiler//Warrior is approaching druid levels of outshining at level 1.

Duskblade has no restriction on what spells it can channel, merely that it has to be able to cast them. A duskblade 3/cleric 11, for instance, can channel harm.

[Godskook]

FTFY

In context, his is legal while yours isn't.

[Psyren]

In context, his is legal while yours isn't.

Eh, I have a pretty good e-lawyer to help me beat the e-charges.

[Godskook]

Eh, I have a pretty good e-lawyer to help me beat the e-charges.

Psyren, under these circumstances, requesting the intercession of an attorney is a sign of a guilty conscience. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2006-06-25)

[Tvtyrant]

Healer//Adept gets you two sources of casting that work well together (Healer gets Gate eventually, and you use the adept side for utility).

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, and Healer//Adept also is not as MAD as other adapt combos due to both using WIS in their spellcasting(Adept is Wis SAD while healer is Wis/Cha). Shugenja//Warrior also looks like it can be fun as now you have just become a better "spontaneous cleric" then the favored soul. Sure, your spell list is slightly more limited then the favored soul but you get heavy armor(which you can cast in just fine since your divine.), D12s, full BAB, better weapon selection AND full divine casting, meaning you don't even need to DMM: Persist Divine Power to fight like a fighter. Not sure if that combo pushes the Shugenja up a tier, but if it dose not it certainly makes it at the very top of Tier 3.

[Cespenar]

Now to think of it, which tier would a Warrior//Expert//Adept be? 3?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, and Healer//Adept also is not as MAD as other adapt combos due to both using WIS in their spellcasting(Adept is Wis SAD while healer is Wis/Cha). Shugenja//Warrior also looks like it can be fun as now you have just become a better "spontaneous cleric" then the favored soul. Sure, your spell list is slightly more limited then the favored soul but you get heavy armor(which you can cast in just fine since your divine.), D12s, full BAB, better weapon selection AND full divine casting, meaning you don't even need to DMM: Persist Divine Power to fight like a fighter. Not sure if that combo pushes the Shugenja up a tier, but if it dose not it certainly makes it at the very top of Tier 3.

You know, you can actually twink out Healer quite a bit, if you know what you're doing.

Use the 'Spontaneous Divine' option from the SRD, then go for Sovereign Speaker to cover the (many) gaps in your spell repertoire.

[deuxhero]

Now to think of it, which tier would a Warrior//Expert//Adept be? 3?

Very top of 4. Congrats! You are now a ranger with better spells!

[hex0]

Battle Dancer/Hexblade :smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

And what does Battle Dancer do?

[avr]

Using those tiered gestalt guidelines, Fighter // Rogue is unavailable. No matter. Try a Warblade // Magewright (ECS). Warblade covers your fighting needs for the most part, a few utility spells from Magewright (animate rope, phantom steed) give you some more out of combat skill, and the casting is based off INT so you don't get any more MAD.

[hex0]

Using those tiered gestalt guidelines, Fighter // Rogue is unavailable. No matter. Try a Warblade // Magewright (ECS). Warblade covers your fighting needs for the most part, a few utility spells from Magewright (animate rope, phantom steed) give you some more out of combat skill, and the casting is based off INT so you don't get any more MAD.

Warblade is tier 3.

Battle Dancer is the Chaotic, Full BAB, CHA based version of the monk.

I actually meant to type Battle Dancer//Spellthief. Although Battle Dancer gets pounce at 11 (effectively), I still think they are tier 5.

[Lord.Sorasen]

FTFY

Through tashalatora, that more or less is the new monk.


I like monk//fighter because it's a basic thing that makes sense. Obviously you can't take dungeoncrasher or zhentarim if you want to do this, because you then it'll be a tier 4 class and won't qualify.

I always have loved the fighter//bonus feat rogue, but I just realized that's not actually a legal choice.

(Monk 2//fighter 2)/(Warrior 18//Psychic Warrior 18) is one I'm fond of. Full BAB all the way, and monk advancement but also full BAB psychic warrior.

[deuxhero]

Warblade is tier 3.


And Magewright is an NPC class.

[hex0]

How low is low for this question? 4-6? Average of 5? 5-6?

I'd still go for Fighter//Monk any day.

[deuxhero]

Anything that can gestalt under the suggested rules.

[Psyren]

How about the PF T5s? Gunslinger, Cavalier/Samurai, what would we gestalt those with? (I think Cavalier is T5, not sure.)

[Chronos]

I can't remember what tier Incarnate is at, but an Incarnate//Expert would be a pretty good skillmonkey. Get all those soulmelds that give bonuses to skills, on top of actually having real skills. Unfortunately there's no soulmeld that gives a useful bonus to Hide/Move Silently, though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I can't remember what tier Incarnate is at, but an Incarnate//Expert would be a pretty good skillmonkey. Get all those soulmelds that give bonuses to skills, on top of actually having real skills. Unfortunately there's no soulmeld that gives a useful bonus to Hide/Move Silently, though.

No, but Shadowed and Silent Moves armor enhancements covers that pretty nicely.

[Adamantrue]

I've recently become a big fan of Gestalt Monk/Ranger, taking on a Ranged Skirmisher combined with a Full BAB Flurry, great Skill List with reasonable Skill Points each level, ACFs that let you trade out redundant abilities (like Evasion), decent Ability Score synergy.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

How about the PF T5s? Gunslinger, Cavalier/Samurai, what would we gestalt those with? (I think Cavalier is T5, not sure.)

The Musket Master goes really well with the CA Ninja, especially on Thri-Kreen. Consequently, Mysterious Stranger goes well with the PF Ninja, especially with a two level dip in Paladin/Expert.

I'm at a loss to combine the Cavalier with anything. As near as I can tell, it's just slightly better than Warrior for granting +1 BAB for classes that can't Gestalt with Fighter.

[Thurbane]

Assuming you mean "Option #2: Partial Gestalt," put Adept with any Tier 3-4 class that can afford a decent Wis score. Don't forget about Improved Familiar (DMG and CW versions).
By strictest reading, Adept doesn't qualify for Improved Familiar (unless the other side of your gestalt is an arcanist). All of the familiars listed have an "arcane spellcaster X" requirement. OK, technically you could take the feat, but it wouldn't allow you to get the familiar.

[docnessuno]

The suggested gestalt system is (imho) flawed, allowing you combinations like Psywar/adept, (T3-T5), while disallowing others like fighter/rogue (T4-T5)

A different system that i use in some games is:

T1: 6 points
T2: 5 points
T3: 4 points
T4: 3 points
T5: 2 points
T6: 1 point

Each level your total may not exceed X points (6 if allowing tier 1 in the game, 5 if allowing tier 2, 4 otherwise)

[JaronK]

The suggested gestalt system is (imho) flawed, allowing you combinations like Psywar/adept, (T3-T5), while disallowing others like fighter/rogue (T4-T5)

It was, quite honestly, thrown in at the last second. Some people had been insisting that the tier system was only to prove how Wizards were awesome, and said that unless they saw suggested house rules to help others they'd maintain that.

So I threw them a basic house rule, just to get the overall idea across. It was always intended that others would throw together something better with a little more thought, like the system you're suggesting.

JaronK

[Godskook]

The suggested gestalt system is (imho) flawed, allowing you combinations like Psywar/adept, (T3-T5), while disallowing others like fighter/rogue (T4-T5)

Jaronk made that clear in the thread linked, calling all 3 suggestions "quick and dirty".

[docnessuno]

It was, quite honestly, thrown in at the last second. Some people had been insisting that the tier system was only to prove how Wizards were awesome, and said that unless they saw suggested house rules to help others they'd maintain that.

So I threw them a basic house rule, just to get the overall idea across. It was always intended that others would throw together something better with a little more thought, like the system you're suggesting.
JaronK

That was not meant as a negative comment on your work (the whole class tiering is very well-tought and incredibly useful), just as an alternative idea for the OP.

[Randomguy]

Does anyone know any combo that would make truenamers slightly playable? Truenamer//factotum? I think that might work. Or maybe it will just make a factotum with a few skill ranks in a useless skill.

[JaronK]

That was not meant as a negative comment on your work (the whole class tiering is very well-tought and incredibly useful), just as an alternative idea for the OP.

Yup, I figured. Just mentioning the history, really, and pointing out that improvements were welcome.

JaronK