Dragonborn and Incarnum

[Tokuhara]

I've read on forums that adding Dragonborn removes racial bonus essentia. However, I've read and reread the Dragonborn and Incarnum races descriptions and have not found anything that would say that this happens. Can somebody explain this to me?

Reason: I am between campaigns and during this down-time, I build hypothetical characters. I thought that a Skarn Dragonborn would be seriously cool (flavour-wise, it is like Dragonwrought Kobold: a race with blood-ties to Dragons. With Skarn, perhaps it is a tie to the Incarnum Dragons). To me, it just seems cool.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I've read on forums that adding Dragonborn removes racial bonus essentia. However, I've read and reread the Dragonborn and Incarnum races descriptions and have not found anything that would say that this happens. Can somebody explain this to me?

Reason: I am between campaigns and during this down-time, I build hypothetical characters. I thought that a Skarn Dragonborn would be seriously cool (flavour-wise, it is like Dragonwrought Kobold: a race with blood-ties to Dragons. With Skarn, perhaps it is a tie to the Incarnum Dragons). To me, it just seems cool.

Dragonborn only keeps movement methods and ability scores adjustments from the original race. Bonus essentia is niether. A Dragonborn Skarn will lose its bonus essentia.

[Tokuhara]

Dragonborn only keeps movement methods and ability scores adjustments from the original race. Bonus essentia is niether. A Dragonborn Skarn will lose its bonus essentia.

I thought that stuff came with the Subtype, kind of like how Psionic creatures all have Power Points. Incarnum races all have Essentia points (heck, it's ONE Essentia).

Would it make a good houserule that subtypes (namely Incarnum and Psionic) retain their bonus points post-Rite of Rebirth?

[MesiDoomstalker]

I thought that stuff came with the Subtype, kind of like how Psionic creatures all have Power Points. Incarnum races all have Essentia points (heck, it's ONE Essentia).

Would it make a good houserule that subtypes (namely Incarnum and Psionic) retain their bonus points post-Rite of Rebirth?

Forgive me, I know little about Incarnum. If it's from a subtype that you keep after becoming Dragonborn, then you keep the bonus essentia. But make sure it actually comes from the subtype.

[Kaje]

The Incarnum subtype does nothing. The essentia is a separate feature.

[Tokuhara]

Forgive me, I know little about Incarnum. If it's from a subtype that you keep after becoming Dragonborn, then you keep the bonus essentia. But make sure it actually comes from the subtype.

Holy -Bleep- -Bleep- -Bleep-!!!

The incarnum subtype gives you +1 Essentia!

[MesiDoomstalker]

The Incarnum subtype does nothing. The essentia is a separate feature.


Holy -Bleep- -Bleep- -Bleep-!!!

The incarnum subtype gives you +1 Essentia!

These seem to conflict with one another.

*checks Incarnum Subtype, then Skarn entry*

....I don't even seen bonus essentia in the Skarn entry. But the Incarnum subtype is a result of having essentia. So, technically, you'd loose the subtype too since you loose your essentia pool.

[Tokuhara]

These seem to conflict with one another.

*checks Incarnum Subtype, then Skarn entry*

....I don't even seen bonus essentia in the Skarn entry. But the Incarnum subtype is a result of having essentia. So, technically, you'd loose the subtype too since you loose your essentia pool.

Dragonborn cannot have you lose a subtype, so the essentia has to conversely stay, since you retain your Subtypes when you become a Dragonborn.

That, and there is a secondary clause:



The creature was created through the use of incarnum or
from raw incarnum.

TECHNICALLY, their predecessor race was a creature born of Incarnum. Thus, the Riilkan and Skarn would be "grandfathered" into the Incarnum Subtype because their ancestral predecessor was forged through Incarnum

[MesiDoomstalker]

Dragonborn cannot have you lose a subtype, so the essentia has to conversely stay, since you retain your Subtypes when you become a Dragonborn.

Thats logic that proves itself. Dragonborn doesn't make you loose subtypes, but the Incarnum subtype is a result of having an essentia pool (which I'd like to point out Skarn's don't actually have to begin with). If you loose the essentia pool because you became a Dragonborn, you loose the subtype because you no longer have a pool. Pool=Subtype. No pool=no Subtype. The other races that have bonus essentia will lose it and thus the subtype but this discourse is mute as Skarns don't have it (at least not in my book).

[Tokuhara]

Thats logic that proves itself. Dragonborn doesn't make you loose subtypes, but the Incarnum subtype is a result of having an essentia pool (which I'd like to point out Skarn's don't actually have to begin with). If you loose the essentia pool because you became a Dragonborn, you loose the subtype because you no longer have a pool. Pool=Subtype. No pool=no Subtype. The other races that have bonus essentia will lose it and thus the subtype but this discourse is mute as Skarns don't have it (at least not in my book).

Sometimes, the rules WotC makes are plain stupid...

A race that is in a bloody book should have a bloody Essentia Pool and a pseudotemplate shouldn't erase the awesome you got for being a member of your race.

"Oh, you're a Lawful Neutral Azurin Incarnate? Well, since you are a Dragonborn, you lose your bonus feat and essentia pool, so now you have to take an Incarnum feat and lose a meldshaper level. Have Fun!

-Sick Evil -Bleep- at WotC-"

[Treblain]

Sometimes, the rules WotC makes are plain stupid...

A race that is in a bloody book should have a bloody Essentia Pool and a pseudotemplate shouldn't erase the awesome you got for being a member of your race.

"Oh, you're a Lawful Neutral Azurin Incarnate? Well, since you are a Dragonborn, you lose your bonus feat and essentia pool, so now you have to take an Incarnum feat and lose a meldshaper level. Have Fun!

-Sick Evil -Bleep- at WotC-"

Oh, yeah, WotC is evil. The nerve of them, letting you take a +0 LA template that lets you fly or breathe fire, and expecting you to lose something in exchange!

[Tokuhara]

Oh, yeah, WotC is evil. The nerve of them, letting you take a +0 LA template that lets you fly or breathe fire, and expecting you to lose something in exchange!

Well, losing something VITAL is kind of lame. I can understand the feat loss, but the essentia/power points loss is unnecessary

[MesiDoomstalker]

If you take Incarnum class thats an entirely different story. You won't recieve your racial bonus essentia but you'd still keep those from your class and the Incarnum Subtype.

[Tokuhara]

If you take Incarnum class thats an entirely different story. You won't recieve your racial bonus essentia but you'd still keep those from your class and the Incarnum Subtype.

Oh well. I guess you can't be too awesome.

Another question: Would a Skarn Dragonborn have his spines?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Oh well. I guess you can't be too awesome.

Another question: Would a Skarn Dragonborn have his spines?

Yes but only as natural attacks. None of the other benefits that come with them carry over (even logically they should.

[Tokuhara]

Yes but only as natural attacks. None of the other benefits that come with them carry over (even logically they should.

So Investing Essentia into my Spines doesn't make them Lawful?

[MesiDoomstalker]

So Investing Essentia into my Spines doesn't make them Lawful?

I'd say since its under the Natural Weapon (Spines) entry, I'm inclined to say they retain that property. I can see a case of why they wouldn't but, by RAW, they should.

[Tokuhara]

I'd say since its under the Natural Weapon (Spines) entry, I'm inclined to say they retain that property. I can see a case of why they wouldn't but, by RAW, they should.

Yay. One benefit.

[Darrin]

I'd say since its under the Natural Weapon (Spines) entry, I'm inclined to say they retain that property. I can see a case of why they wouldn't but, by RAW, they should.

But that's still a racial ability, and it's not a movement mode or ability modifier, so by RAW I think Dragonborn ixnays it. This is another one of those idiotic quirks of the Dragonborn pseudo-template... a kobold who becomes more "draconic" via Dragonborn actually becomes less draconic by losing his bite/claw/claw attacks.

[Tokuhara]

But that's still a racial ability, and it's not a movement mode or ability modifier, so by RAW I think Dragonborn ixnays it. This is another one of those idiotic quirks of the Dragonborn pseudo-template... a kobold who becomes more "draconic" via Dragonborn actually becomes less draconic by losing his bite/claw/claw attacks.

It doesn't mention it on either list, so I assume it lets you have the spines, because if Skarn don't get their spine attacks, then they cannot qualify for their own PrC

[BlackestOfMages]

It doesn't mention it on either list, so I assume it lets you have the spines, because if Skarn don't get their spine attacks, then they cannot qualify for their own PrC

ok, quick note here. if you become a dragonborn, you are no longer a skarn. you are a dragonborn that used to be a skarn and still looks like one but are no longer of that race.

just like if you'd been permenantly polymorphed or something like that.

so it'd make sense if you couldn't qualify for that prc since it's specific to a race you no longer are

[MesiDoomstalker]

But that's still a racial ability, and it's not a movement mode or ability modifier, so by RAW I think Dragonborn ixnays it. This is another one of those idiotic quirks of the Dragonborn pseudo-template... a kobold who becomes more "draconic" via Dragonborn actually becomes less draconic by losing his bite/claw/claw attacks.

Currently AFB, but doesn't Dragonborn keep ability mods, movement, and natural attacks?

[Darrin]

Currently AFB, but doesn't Dragonborn keep ability mods, movement, and natural attacks?

It doesn't mention natural attacks at all, so they get lumped into "racial traits", and you lose 'em by RAW as far as I can tell. I'd be quite delighted if someone could definitively prove otherwise.

[Kaje]

Dragonborn keep only type, subtypes, ability mods, and movement modes/speeds.

Now there's something I'm curious about. Would a Dragonborn Hengeyokai keep its alt-form's movement modes?

[Tokuhara]

ok, quick note here. if you become a dragonborn, you are no longer a skarn. you are a dragonborn that used to be a skarn and still looks like one but are no longer of that race.

just like if you'd been permenantly polymorphed or something like that.

so it'd make sense if you couldn't qualify for that prc since it's specific to a race you no longer are


You still count as
a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or
prerequisite that depends on race.

Therefore, you would still be a skarn, as stated by it's own effects.

Besides, a Gnoll Dragonborn still has teeth and claws, so logically, it SHOULD keep its natural weapons. It isn't like polymorph: you are augmented by the power of Bahamut (or Tiamat)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ok, so you turn into a draconic looking version of your previous race. The only main difference physically is your slightly taller, have scales (that don't provide NA), and a draconic head. So why in the 9 hells don't they keep their natural attacks? That makes absolutly no sense. Thats WotC for you.

I see a reasonable house rule right here.

[Darrin]

Now there's something I'm curious about. Would a Dragonborn Hengeyokai keep its alt-form's movement modes?

No. The movement modes are not part of their default humanoid stat block.

Hengeyokai would keep the shapechanger subtype, but that doesn't offer any alternate forms by itself. The Hengeyokai would lose access to both their hybrid and animal forms, including any Fly or Swim speeds granted by such.

[Tokuhara]

Ok, so you turn into a draconic looking version of your previous race. The only main difference physically is your slightly taller, have scales (that don't provide NA), and a draconic head. So why in the 9 hells don't they keep their natural attacks? That makes absolutly no sense. Thats WotC for you.

I see a reasonable house rule right here.

It's a default in campaigns where the situation arises