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gooddragon1
2011-10-26, 10:19 PM
Essence Leech (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Essence_Leech_%283.5e_Class%29).

You make 1 roll per round and that's usually it.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-26, 10:23 PM
And he still has more class features than a fighter. :smallamused:

Should definitely have at least 4+Int skill points per level though.

gooddragon1
2011-10-26, 11:18 PM
And he still has more class features than a fighter. :smallamused:

Should definitely have at least 4+Int skill points per level though.

I can't really see him using skills :/

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-26, 11:19 PM
Okay, well that's your call. Still, the Essence Drain ability looks nice, especially the temporary Charisma drain. Could be an interesting character.

Tanuki Tales
2011-10-26, 11:49 PM
So...

At level 20 this guy is dealing 20 to 80 damage with no attack and no save allowed?

And what duration exactly is a creature saving against? The only durations I see are what the Essence Leech receives from leeching off something.

I mean, I guess this balance outs somehow since it has to blow feats to even wear armor or use weapons and it'll have low hit points and skill points.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-10-27, 12:11 AM
Hmm... looks kind of weak, but- more importantly- boring to play. I guess that's the idea, but...

jiriku
2011-10-27, 01:59 AM
Broken, about three different ways.

The Charisma bonus from fully leaching an object is untyped and therefore stackable, allowing anyone to get NI Charisma with a 1-level dip.

The size of the object in question isn't specified, allowing the character to dissolve doors, walls, castles, mountains, whatever he has the patience for. It's essentially a light-duty version of disintigrate, available as an at-will ability.

Can't be resisted or shut down, meaning the character can bypass any barrier by absorbing it, dispose of artifacts in a casual manner, escape from any sort of prison, and otherwise punch massive gaping holes in a variety of DM plot devices.

As written, I'd say Tier 2. If you were aiming for T4/rogue as a balance point, you need to put a type on the Charisma bonus, a size limit on the objects to be affected, and engineer some effects that block or limit the effectiveness of the leech.

gooddragon1
2011-10-27, 02:27 AM
Broken, about three different ways.

The Charisma bonus from fully leaching an object is untyped and therefore stackable, allowing anyone to get NI Charisma with a 1-level dip.

The size of the object in question isn't specified, allowing the character to dissolve doors, walls, castles, mountains, whatever he has the patience for. It's essentially a light-duty version of disintigrate, available as an at-will ability.

Can't be resisted or shut down, meaning the character can bypass any barrier by absorbing it, dispose of artifacts in a casual manner, escape from any sort of prison, and otherwise punch massive gaping holes in a variety of DM plot devices.

As written, I'd say Tier 2. If you were aiming for T4/rogue as a balance point, you need to put a type on the Charisma bonus, a size limit on the objects to be affected, and engineer some effects that block or limit the effectiveness of the leech.

After killing... over 9000 enemies? I guess if your DM throws that many at you...

Temporary HP resist it. Otherwise that's sort of the point. It's a straight up: you take this much "damage" class.

I'll see what I can do about the other stuff.

EDIT: OK. Fixed.

gkathellar
2011-10-27, 04:10 AM
So ... who is this class intended for? People who are at the table but don't really want to be there? Because this is an incredibly boring mechanic.

Robbie McPaul
2011-10-27, 04:38 AM
After killing... over 9000 enemies? I guess if your DM throws that many at you...



Creatures or objects reduced to 0 or fewer HP by this ability are completely absorbed by the essence leech and grant him a +2 bonus on charisma for 2 hours per class level.

I think the above is what he's talking about. A spell components pouch comes to mind, or hell clubs and quarterstaffs.

jiriku
2011-10-27, 07:11 AM
Yes. Objects. Such as grains of sand. I imagine you could hold several million of them in a small sack. Enough to need scientific notation to display your Charisma score. Even if you restrict it to only bump Charisma off a living creature, PCs can carry ant farms, bags of vermin, rat cages, rabbit hutches, or hire a commoner to drive a flock of sheep to the dungeon site. Really, with the ability to gain +100 Charisma with five minutes of effort, the PC is strongly incented to find some way to get it done.

To clarify, the ability to damage people isn't primarily what breaks the class, although the "damage" you're dealing does have the quality of being both impossible to avoid and impossible to heal while requiring neither line of sight nor line of effect (ahem). The brokenness comes from the ability to disintigrate both matter and spell effects on an at-will basis in a completely unstoppable manner. That's a tremendously versatile and open-ended power. Consider that, at 1st level, you can do the following at will:


Open any door with 100% success by disintigrating the lock or the entire door.
Disarm any trap with 100% success by disintigrating the trap mechanism.
Bypass any dangerous area in a dungeon with 100% success by disintigrating a tunnel around the dangerous area.
Kill any known foe from behind total cover, with a 0% chance of revealing your position.
Convince anyone to do anything with 100% success via epic-level use of Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks, simply by disintigrating a handful of sand once every 90 minutes.
Earn arbitrarily large amounts of gold by using the sand trick, then using the Perform skill to earn money.
Operate any magical item with 100% success by using the sand trick before making a UMD check.
Disintigrate any in-place spell effect with 100% success, regardless of its caster level.
Render enemies impossible to raise from the dead with any spell short of true resurrection by disintigrating the body (with 100% success).
Reduce the Climb check of any vertical surface to 15 by disintigrating handholds and footholds out of it. Or alternately, disintigrate a stairway into the surface (again, 100% success).
Remove curses or cursed items with 100% success by disintigrating the curse spell effect or disintigrating the cursed item.


You can do all of this at 1st level. That's a 1-level dip for members of any other class. At higher levels, when your damage output is more credible, you can cripple enemies by disintigrating their magic weapons, spell component pouches, and holy symbols. The party will hate you for destroying loot, but hey, you've still turned a tough fight into an easy victory for the group.


Balancing suggestions:
Energy leech should require you to target the creature or object to be affected, and thus require you to have line of effect and line of sight. As a targeted effect, it should strike one target at a time - no capturing multiple creatures in a square.
Energy leech should be limited to affecting single objects weighing no more than 10 pounds per class level. The ability to affect a small portion of a larger object should be phased in at a higher level or entirely removed. You should also consider restricting the maximum of hardness of objects to be affected. Say, a limit of class level +4, which is enough to affect wooden items at 1st level and adamantine items at 16th level.
The Charisma boost should be a non-stacking enhancement or inherent bonus of +1/3 class levels.
The target gets a save to negate the damage of 10 + 1/2 class level + Charisma modifier. Attended objects can use their owner's saves as usual. Spells save as an object of their caster level, or using the caster's saving throws if the caster is actively concentrating on the spell or the spell is active on the caster's person. You should probably double or triple the damage to compensate for the likelihood of saving, but you need to insert some chance of failure into the ability.
The ability is clearly supernatural, and should be marked as such. It is not extraordinary.
The damage should be real damage, not a reduction in maximum hit points.

gooddragon1
2011-10-27, 11:09 AM
Yes. Objects. Such as grains of sand. I imagine you could hold several million of them in a small sack. Enough to need scientific notation to display your Charisma score. Even if you restrict it to only bump Charisma off a living creature, PCs can carry ant farms, bags of vermin, rat cages, rabbit hutches, or hire a commoner to drive a flock of sheep to the dungeon site. Really, with the ability to gain +100 Charisma with five minutes of effort, the PC is strongly incented to find some way to get it done.

To clarify, the ability to damage people isn't primarily what breaks the class, although the "damage" you're dealing does have the quality of being both impossible to avoid and impossible to heal while requiring neither line of sight nor line of effect (ahem). The brokenness comes from the ability to disintigrate both matter and spell effects on an at-will basis in a completely unstoppable manner. That's a tremendously versatile and open-ended power. Consider that, at 1st level, you can do the following at will:


Open any door with 100% success by disintigrating the lock or the entire door.
Disarm any trap with 100% success by disintigrating the trap mechanism.
Bypass any dangerous area in a dungeon with 100% success by disintigrating a tunnel around the dangerous area.
Kill any known foe from behind total cover, with a 0% chance of revealing your position.
Convince anyone to do anything with 100% success via epic-level use of Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks, simply by disintigrating a handful of sand once every 90 minutes.
Earn arbitrarily large amounts of gold by using the sand trick, then using the Perform skill to earn money.
Operate any magical item with 100% success by using the sand trick before making a UMD check.
Disintigrate any in-place spell effect with 100% success, regardless of its caster level.
Render enemies impossible to raise from the dead with any spell short of true resurrection by disintigrating the body (with 100% success).
Reduce the Climb check of any vertical surface to 15 by disintigrating handholds and footholds out of it. Or alternately, disintigrate a stairway into the surface (again, 100% success).
Remove curses or cursed items with 100% success by disintigrating the curse spell effect or disintigrating the cursed item.


You can do all of this at 1st level. That's a 1-level dip for members of any other class. At higher levels, when your damage output is more credible, you can cripple enemies by disintigrating their magic weapons, spell component pouches, and holy symbols. The party will hate you for destroying loot, but hey, you've still turned a tough fight into an easy victory for the group.


Balancing suggestions:
Energy leech should require you to target the creature or object to be affected, and thus require you to have line of effect and line of sight. As a targeted effect, it should strike one target at a time - no capturing multiple creatures in a square.
Energy leech should be limited to affecting single objects weighing no more than 10 pounds per class level. The ability to affect a small portion of a larger object should be phased in at a higher level or entirely removed. You should also consider restricting the maximum of hardness of objects to be affected. Say, a limit of class level +4, which is enough to affect wooden items at 1st level and adamantine items at 16th level.
The Charisma boost should be a non-stacking enhancement or inherent bonus of +1/3 class levels.
The target gets a save to negate the damage of 10 + 1/2 class level + Charisma modifier. Attended objects can use their owner's saves as usual. Spells save as an object of their caster level, or using the caster's saving throws if the caster is actively concentrating on the spell or the spell is active on the caster's person. You should probably double or triple the damage to compensate for the likelihood of saving, but you need to insert some chance of failure into the ability.
The ability is clearly supernatural, and should be marked as such. It is not extraordinary.
The damage should be real damage, not a reduction in maximum hit points.


-Line of effect is now set (multiple creatures is to fight swarms)
-Hardness limit implemented
-Charisma boost removed
-Save implemented
-It's meant to work in an AMF.
-It's a form of damage that isn't supposed to be easy to heal
-Ever heard of dragonfire adept? 1d6 fire at level 1 of which half goes through hardness. Same action. No hardness requirement. 15 foot cone

Morph Bark
2011-10-27, 03:51 PM
Questions:

What Tier did you aim for?
Did you want to make a class that is fun to play?
Did you intend for this to be serious or silly?

jiriku
2011-10-27, 04:45 PM
Before we discuss further, I want to let you know I'm not trying to give you a hard time about this. This is actually a pretty interesting class that rewards creativity and lateral thinking. I like it a lot. I wouldn't be so picky about it, except that you put Balance: Rogue in your class description. If you had written Balance: Druid, I'd be suggesting a lot fewer changes.

The broad issue that I'm trying to drive at, both in my previous posts and below, is that energy leech works too well. It can deal damage in ways that can't be resisted or healed, even by Tier 1 characters, regardless of level (this is somewhat addressed by your addition of a save). It can unravel the spells and effects of Tier 1 characters in ways they can't prevent, regardless of level. IT can kill people in ways that render them non-resurrectable except by 9th-level magic, even at 1st level. It can remove obstacles with 100% success, regardless of level, which means the DM will find it very difficult to contain the character (may already be addressed depending on the specifics of your hardness limitation). It can be used while bound, while grappled and pinned, while paralyzed and helpless, while stripped of all gear, while imprisoned within an antimagic field (literally the only way to contain an energy leech is to keep him unconscious or kill him). All of these features are potentially game-breaking, which places your class squarely in Tier 1 or Tier 2 territory, despite your professed balance point of rogue.

Let's compare your energy leech to a druid, arguably the most powerful published class in the game. A druid has access to spells and wild shape forms that can bypass barriers, but gains them slowly and in limited quantities. A locked door might stop him at 1st level, a steel barrier might stop him at 5th, and a wall of force might stop him at 10th (this concern may not be relevant, depending on what sort of hardness limit you implemented). A druid can deal substantial harm to foes, but the druid must contend with armor class, spell resistance, miss chances, damage reduction or energy resistance, and many other defenses. He has attacks that will bypass some of these defenses, but they are still a concern to him. His best capabilities are limited, at least at low level, and for every cool thing he can do, there exists a counter somewhere that can block or defeat him - to maintain full use of his powers, he's got to worry about casting defensively, avoiding anti-magic fields, steering clear of characters with the Mage Slayer feat, not getting paralyzed, silenced, or grappled, etc, etc. Now, the essence leech isn't as versatile as a druid, but his power, when applicable, works much more reliably than a druid's powers do, his power is nearly always applicable, and there's really nothing anyone can do stop him without killing him outright. Do you see the contrast?


It's meant to work in an AMF.

Clearly so, and I can see why you'd want to be extraordinary. But this effect destroys physical matter and eats spells from a distance of 100+ feet and grants the user temporary hit points from the absorbed essence. It defeats magical healing and consumes even magical effects that are invulnerable to harm from mundane sources, like a wall of force. Everything about it is supernatural. Extraordinary just isn't a good fit.


-It's a form of damage that isn't supposed to be easy to heal.

Fair enough, and I can support that goal. But you wanted damage that wouldn't be easy to heal, and this is damage that's impossible to heal. Even vile damage and dessication damage can be healed under specific circumstances. There aren't any tier 4 classes that can deal damage in ways a cleric of equal level can't fix. I'd say probably wish and miracle are your only routes to healing this "damage", and even that would fall under the "exceptional" uses of those spells. If a 17th-level character has to spend 5,000 xp to undo the effects of an attack by a 1st-level character, then we might have a game balance issue, hmm?

Looking at it from another direction, let's think of defenses that this bypasses:
damage reduction
incorporeal miss chance
concealment
immunity to precision damage
immunity to weapon damage
immunity to targeted effects
magic immunity
Armor Class
energy resistance
spell resistance

Consider rogue and warlock, two classes with a power level similar to your desired result. How many of those defenses can they ignore with 100% of their attacks?


-Ever heard of dragonfire adept? 1d6 fire at level 1 of which half goes through hardness. Same action. No hardness requirement. 15 foot cone

Great class! I encourage my players to use it a lot. Doesn't bypass hardness at all. Perhaps you're remembering that its fiery breath weapon deals half damage to objects? A 1st-level DFA can deal up to 3 damage to an object, which has zero chance of harming anything with hardness greater than 2. At 3rd level, when his damage improves, he has a ~17% chance per round of dealing 1 point of damage to a wooden object. At 5th level, IF he chooses acid breath, he finally gains the ability to deal full damage to objects and has a respectable ability to damage normal metal items, but he's still stopped cold by more difficult barriers like adamantine or walls of force.

A better example in defense of your class balance might be the warlock, since some warlocks will take baleful utterance at 1st level and be able to use an at-will shatter effect. The warlock's eldritch blast isn't any better for destroying objects than the DFA's breath, but a warlock with baleful utterance can easily shatter a lock. However, warlocks can affect only nonmagical objects of no great weight. There's no corresponding limit on the essence leech's power.

gooddragon1
2011-10-27, 06:00 PM
Before we discuss further, I want to let you know I'm not trying to give you a hard time about this. This is actually a pretty interesting class that rewards creativity and lateral thinking. I like it a lot. I wouldn't be so picky about it, except that you put Balance: Rogue in your class description. If you had written Balance: Druid, I'd be suggesting a lot fewer changes.

The broad issue that I'm trying to drive at, both in my previous posts and below, is that energy leech works too well. It can deal damage in ways that can't be resisted or healed, even by Tier 1 characters, regardless of level (this is somewhat addressed by your addition of a save). It can unravel the spells and effects of Tier 1 characters in ways they can't prevent, regardless of level. IT can kill people in ways that render them non-resurrectable except by 9th-level magic, even at 1st level. It can remove obstacles with 100% success, regardless of level, which means the DM will find it very difficult to contain the character (may already be addressed depending on the specifics of your hardness limitation). It can be used while bound, while grappled and pinned, while paralyzed and helpless, while stripped of all gear, while imprisoned within an antimagic field (literally the only way to contain an energy leech is to keep him unconscious or kill him). All of these features are potentially game-breaking, which places your class squarely in Tier 1 or Tier 2 territory, despite your professed balance point of rogue.

Let's compare your energy leech to a druid, arguably the most powerful published class in the game. A druid has access to spells and wild shape forms that can bypass barriers, but gains them slowly and in limited quantities. A locked door might stop him at 1st level, a steel barrier might stop him at 5th, and a wall of force might stop him at 10th (this concern may not be relevant, depending on what sort of hardness limit you implemented). A druid can deal substantial harm to foes, but the druid must contend with armor class, spell resistance, miss chances, damage reduction or energy resistance, and many other defenses. He has attacks that will bypass some of these defenses, but they are still a concern to him. His best capabilities are limited, at least at low level, and for every cool thing he can do, there exists a counter somewhere that can block or defeat him - to maintain full use of his powers, he's got to worry about casting defensively, avoiding anti-magic fields, steering clear of characters with the Mage Slayer feat, not getting paralyzed, silenced, or grappled, etc, etc. Now, the essence leech isn't as versatile as a druid, but his power, when applicable, works much more reliably than a druid's powers do, his power is nearly always applicable, and there's really nothing anyone can do stop him without killing him outright. Do you see the contrast?



Clearly so, and I can see why you'd want to be extraordinary. But this effect destroys physical matter and eats spells from a distance of 100+ feet and grants the user temporary hit points from the absorbed essence. It defeats magical healing and consumes even magical effects that are invulnerable to harm from mundane sources, like a wall of force. Everything about it is supernatural. Extraordinary just isn't a good fit.



Fair enough, and I can support that goal. But you wanted damage that wouldn't be easy to heal, and this is damage that's impossible to heal. Even vile damage and dessication damage can be healed under specific circumstances. There aren't any tier 4 classes that can deal damage in ways a cleric of equal level can't fix. I'd say probably wish and miracle are your only routes to healing this "damage", and even that would fall under the "exceptional" uses of those spells. If a 17th-level character has to spend 5,000 xp to undo the effects of an attack by a 1st-level character, then we might have a game balance issue, hmm?

Looking at it from another direction, let's think of defenses that this bypasses:
damage reduction
incorporeal miss chance
concealment
immunity to precision damage
immunity to weapon damage
immunity to targeted effects
magic immunity
Armor Class
energy resistance
spell resistance

Consider rogue and warlock, two classes with a power level similar to your desired result. How many of those defenses can they ignore with 100% of their attacks?



Great class! I encourage my players to use it a lot. Doesn't bypass hardness at all. Perhaps you're remembering that its fiery breath weapon deals half damage to objects? A 1st-level DFA can deal up to 3 damage to an object, which has zero chance of harming anything with hardness greater than 2. At 3rd level, when his damage improves, he has a ~17% chance per round of dealing 1 point of damage to a wooden object. At 5th level, IF he chooses acid breath, he finally gains the ability to deal full damage to objects and has a respectable ability to damage normal metal items, but he's still stopped cold by more difficult barriers like adamantine or walls of force.

A better example in defense of your class balance might be the warlock, since some warlocks will take baleful utterance at 1st level and be able to use an at-will shatter effect. The warlock's eldritch blast isn't any better for destroying objects than the DFA's breath, but a warlock with baleful utterance can easily shatter a lock. However, warlocks can affect only nonmagical objects of no great weight. There's no corresponding limit on the essence leech's power.

Ok then, balance = blaster.


No object is safe. Eldritch blast ignores hardness, and while it only deals half damage to objects, there isn't anything he won't get through eventually.

http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/8327/3.5-dnd-warlock/p1

It's... a blaster. It's not impossible to heal either. Make a few will saves (nat 20 always succeeds) to halve the duration each time. Anyone could make enough saves to actually make the damage go away faster than natural healing. I just want to deal damage. It's not even that much damage. You just aren't going to heal it in combat.

The warlock also gets something else this guy doesn't: Invocations. The sole feature of this class is damage. Invisibility? No. Flying? No. Climbing on the walls? No. Targeting more than one enemy with an attack? Nope.avi

EDIT:
http://www.iconusa4.com/online/Images/starwars/Master_replicas/StormtrooperBlasterRifle_0.gif

Glimbur
2011-10-27, 06:51 PM
The discussion about the exact power level of essence leach is well in hand, so I'll take a different tack. This class has only one ability. Why is that? It plays the same (barring items) at level 20 as it does at level one. I feel that makes a class flat and boring. For other class features, I would consider other uses of all of this "essence" which the class has leached. Maybe it could be used to produce objects or temporary constructs or such. Maybe it can be used to enhance things besides personal Charisma. This would be easier with more fluff behind the ability.

jiriku
2011-10-27, 07:52 PM
This might help you define your desired balance level (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=9t69nnja5snovrvecldesafvm3&topic=5293), assuming you aren't familiar with it already.


Quote:
No object is safe. Eldritch blast ignores hardness, and while it only deals half damage to objects, there isn't anything he won't get through eventually.

The poster who wrote this is incorrect. Eldritch blast does not have any special ability to ignore hardness. Perhaps he was confusing the rules for hardness and damage reduction; an eldritch blast does ignore damage reduction.


It's... a blaster. It's not impossible to heal either. Make a few will saves (nat 20 always succeeds) to halve the duration each time. Anyone could make enough saves to actually make the damage go away faster than natural healing. I just want to deal damage. It's not even that much damage. You just aren't going to heal it in combat.

I see your goal. I also see that there aren't any other effects in the game that deal damage that never misses, can't be mitigated, and absolutely can't be healed in combat by any means starting from level 1. There is a reason for this. Game balance relies on trade-offs and the risk of failure. You need them to make a good class.


The warlock also gets something else this guy doesn't: Invocations. The sole feature of this class is damage. Invisibility? No. Flying? No. Climbing on the walls? No. Targeting more than one enemy with an attack? Nope.avi

That's true. It also doesn't get spells, wild shape, bonus feats, rage, or anything else, but that's not significant. You can't balance an overpowered class feature by gimping versatility. A class that auto-pwns at tasks A, B, and C isn't balanced merely because it auto-fails at tasks D, E, and F. If anything, such a class is more broken because it's now dead weight for the party to drag around when it's not stealing the show with its auto-win abilities.

Further, dealing damage is far from this class's sole feature. Quite the opposite, it's better at overcoming many dungeon obstacles than skill monkeys like rogue who are supposed to be specialists at such things. Your sole feature isn't about dealing damage (it doesn't actually deal damage at all). Your sole feature is about completely removing from reality absolutely anything that gets in your way. That's a very broadly pitched and useful power in an extraordinary variety of situations.

And, umm, lest we forget, that's not your sole feature. You also automatically grant yourself 1d4*class level in temporary hit points every single round when you're in combat, and can gain them easily enough outside of combat by absorbing almost any sort of minor critter in the area.

gooddragon1
2011-10-27, 08:28 PM
This might help you define your desired balance level (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=9t69nnja5snovrvecldesafvm3&topic=5293), assuming you aren't familiar with it already.



The poster who wrote this is incorrect. Eldritch blast does not have any special ability to ignore hardness. Perhaps he was confusing the rules for hardness and damage reduction; an eldritch blast does ignore damage reduction.



I see your goal. I also see that there aren't any other effects in the game that deal damage that never misses, can't be mitigated, and absolutely can't be healed in combat by any means starting from level 1. There is a reason for this. Game balance relies on trade-offs and the risk of failure. You need them to make a good class.



That's true. It also doesn't get spells, wild shape, bonus feats, rage, or anything else, but that's not significant. You can't balance an overpowered class feature by gimping versatility. A class that auto-pwns at tasks A, B, and C isn't balanced merely because it auto-fails at tasks D, E, and F. If anything, such a class is more broken because it's now dead weight for the party to drag around when it's not stealing the show with its auto-win abilities.

Further, dealing damage is far from this class's sole feature. Quite the opposite, it's better at overcoming many dungeon obstacles than skill monkeys like rogue who are supposed to be specialists at such things. Your sole feature isn't about dealing damage (it doesn't actually deal damage at all). Your sole feature is about completely removing from reality absolutely anything that gets in your way. That's a very broadly pitched and useful power in an extraordinary variety of situations.

And, umm, lest we forget, that's not your sole feature. You also automatically grant yourself 1d4*class level in temporary hit points every single round when you're in combat, and can gain them easily enough outside of combat by absorbing almost any sort of minor critter in the area.

Temporary HP removed


An eldritch blast is subject to spell resistance, although the
Spell Penetration feat and other effects that improve caster
level checks to overcome spell resistance also apply to eldritch
blast. An eldritch blast deals half damage to objects. Metamagic
feats cannot improve a warlock’s eldritch blast (because it is a
spell-like ability, not a spell). However, the feat Ability Focus
(eldritch blast) increases the DC for all saving throws (if any)
associated with a warlock’s eldritch blast by 2. See page 303 of
the Monster Manual.


Energy Attacks

Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

Does not apply hardness.

There is also a risk of failure: Successful Will save + Mettle.

Orb of Force+True Strike. Sr/NO, +20 to touch attack.

It doesn't deal that much damage and as such it shouldn't have to worry about the enemy healing the damage away.

EDIT: I have now made it to apply hardness.

EDIT2: Please... stop :(

jiriku
2011-10-27, 10:39 PM
Suit yourself. I think at this point we both understand what the other is trying to say.

Yitzi
2011-10-28, 11:16 AM
And he still has more class features than a fighter. :smallamused:

Depends what you consider a class feature. If everyone got access to a single spell of each level, would that mean that a wizard would have no class features?

Morph Bark
2011-10-28, 01:51 PM
Considering my questions have remained unanswered, I'm gonna go ahead and assume the motto here is "unserious, unfun, unbalanced".

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 01:56 PM
Depends what you consider a class feature. If everyone got access to a single spell of each level, would that mean that a wizard would have no class features?

No. The wizard has a familiar. :smallconfused:

Yitzi
2011-10-28, 02:32 PM
No. The wizard has a familiar. :smallconfused:

Point...but what about a wizard variant that gave up the familiar for an extra spell/day of each level (you know people would take such a variant)?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 02:34 PM
Point...but what about a wizard variant that gave up the familiar for an extra spell/day of each level (you know people would take such a variant)?

By that logic, the fighter does have class features like Dungeoncrasher and the PHB II variants (All of which he trades his bonus feats for). I'm talking about the strict base class here.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-10-28, 04:09 PM
The one-ability class is an interesting thought experiment, but (here at least) it fails to be well designed.

Firstly, the mechanic is boring for all the "official" applications. Dealing 20-80 damage each round based on a d4 roll (10-40 damage if the enemy saves successfully) is not only somewhat underwhelming, but it's incredibly uninteresting. There's no room for optimization, new tactics, or anything but "press A to kill dudes."

Further, the other uses of the ability are "overcome all challenges all the time by blasting them to pieces," with a hefty dose of "if you can't blast this challenge into pieces, be utterly useless to the party for a while."

In short, OP in some circumstances (can blast though pretty much any obstacle), UP in most other circumstances, and utterly boring both to play (all you can do is creatively disintegrate things) and in theory (one ability that doesn't change or evolve over 20 levels isn't going to be fun once you've exhausted most of its uses around level 4-5).

gooddragon1
2011-10-28, 05:11 PM
The one-ability class is an interesting thought experiment, but (here at least) it fails to be well designed.

Firstly, the mechanic is boring for all the "official" applications. Dealing 20-80 damage each round based on a d4 roll (10-40 damage if the enemy saves successfully) is not only somewhat underwhelming, but it's incredibly uninteresting. There's no room for optimization, new tactics, or anything but "press A to kill dudes."

Further, the other uses of the ability are "overcome all challenges all the time by blasting them to pieces," with a hefty dose of "if you can't blast this challenge into pieces, be utterly useless to the party for a while."

In short, OP in some circumstances (can blast though pretty much any obstacle), UP in most other circumstances, and utterly boring both to play (all you can do is creatively disintegrate things) and in theory (one ability that doesn't change or evolve over 20 levels isn't going to be fun once you've exhausted most of its uses around level 4-5).

Well, my DM approved it so :P. I'm just tired of being a wizard and doing everything. I have other party members who can do the other stuff.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-10-28, 05:26 PM
Well, my DM approved it so :P. I'm just tired of being a wizard and doing everything. I have other party members who can do the other stuff.

DM approval is fine. If you post on the homebrew forums, however, I'm going to give you critique from a design standpoint. And from a design standpoint, this class does not work well at all. :smalltongue:

gooddragon1
2011-10-28, 06:08 PM
DM approval is fine. If you post on the homebrew forums, however, I'm going to give you critique from a design standpoint. And from a design standpoint, this class does not work well at all. :smalltongue:

Well, now that I am not crying anymore after how harsh the critique was can you list the problems with it (bullet format plz)?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-10-28, 06:59 PM
Certainly.


Lack of abilities at higher levels means the class feels LESS interesting as you level, rather than more. Players want new and better tricks as they level, not a constant litany of minor improvements to existing abilities...especially if they only have one ability.
Ability starts weak in terms of damage, and scales poorly and with a wide damage range.
Ability's utility is far to powerful (you can destroy anything given enough time), but the class is useless outside of situations where that ability is applicable or where time is important (as it takes so long to eat through anything). By contrast, the ability can eat through magical effects almost instantly, and there's no clear rules for what effects it can and can't chew through.
Due to the above (utility of one ability and uselessness of the entire rest of the class), it's either almost worthless or entirely spotlight hogging.
Ability is so simplistic in use that the class will be boring to play: you lack options for customization or even just variety in game-play.
Damage values are static and wide-spread (10-80 damage is a VERY wide gap).
The class is only able to attack Will saves and/or objects, making it extremely limited.
Skill list and all strong saves don't really make sense with the concept, and there is no flavor to speak of, so the concept itself is extremely nebulous.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 07:07 PM
Certainly.


Lack of abilities at higher levels means the class feels LESS interesting as you level, rather than more. Players want new and better tricks as they level, not a constant litany of minor improvements to existing abilities...especially if they only have one ability.
Ability starts weak in terms of damage, and scales poorly and with a wide damage range.
Ability's utility is far to powerful (you can destroy anything given enough time), but the class is useless outside of situations where that ability is applicable or where time is important (as it takes so long to eat through anything). By contrast, the ability can eat through magical effects almost instantly, and there's no clear rules for what effects it can and can't chew through.
Due to the above (utility of one ability and uselessness of the entire rest of the class), it's either almost worthless or entirely spotlight hogging.
Ability is so simplistic in use that the class will be boring to play: you lack options for customization or even just variety in game-play.
Damage values are static and wide-spread (10-80 damage is a VERY wide gap).
The class is only able to attack Will saves and/or objects, making it extremely limited.
Skill list and all strong saves don't really make sense with the concept, and there is no flavor to speak of, so the concept itself is extremely nebulous.


Djinn's right here, gooddragon. It's a good thing that your class was approved by your DM, but power isn't what makes a class good. The barbarian is a perfectly strong class, but you'll very rarely hear of it being taken past 7th level in any game where prestige classes are allowed. The reason for that isn't because it's not powerful on its own, its because many different options is what makes a class fun to play.

A lot of times on optimization boards (this one especially) you'll hear talks about balance and power and all that, but at the end of the day, D&D is a game first, and a combat system second. What's most important isn't how much damage you deal or how many obstacles you can tear through, it's how much fun you have.

That said, a class with a single ability could be pretty interesting, as long as that ability scaled at least every other level and gave you a few different options and tweaks to that ability. (Think of a warlock, without his invocations but with more blast essences and shapes)

gooddragon1
2011-10-29, 12:35 AM
Djinn's right here, gooddragon. It's a good thing that your class was approved by your DM, but power isn't what makes a class good. The barbarian is a perfectly strong class, but you'll very rarely hear of it being taken past 7th level in any game where prestige classes are allowed. The reason for that isn't because it's not powerful on its own, its because many different options is what makes a class fun to play.

A lot of times on optimization boards (this one especially) you'll hear talks about balance and power and all that, but at the end of the day, D&D is a game first, and a combat system second. What's most important isn't how much damage you deal or how many obstacles you can tear through, it's how much fun you have.

That said, a class with a single ability could be pretty interesting, as long as that ability scaled at least every other level and gave you a few different options and tweaks to that ability. (Think of a warlock, without his invocations but with more blast essences and shapes)

I can see what you guys mean. Many people don't want to be stuck with doing one thing over and over and how there must always be counters. I am one of the people who does enjoy doing one thing over and over but require that I not run into situations where I cannot do that 1 thing. The DM I played with tonight said that I should consider having the ability grant me a charge while using it to deal more damage (d6 instead of d4). I don't want to do more damage than 1d4. So instead I am thinking of having the charge have a basic ability that you can reroll the d4 by spending a charge. Charges should last 2 hours per level. Perhaps more abilities could be allowed at later levels and may cost more charges? Meh. Too tired atm.

gooddragon1
2011-10-30, 02:08 PM
Expend Essence (Su)

As a standard action, an essence leech may use some of the stored essence he has. He may not use this ability more than 3 + Charisma Modifier + 1 per 5 levels times per day. As the essence leech increases in power he eventually gains the capacity to convert drained essence into different effects.

Lesser Renewal (This ability requires no charge points): This ability removes damage from one creature or object he touches equal to twice his level.

Renewal (Expend 1 Charge Point to use this ability): You can cure 2 points of ability damage or remove the dazed, fatigued, or sickened condition from one individual touched.

Improved Renewal (Expend 2 Charge Points to use this ability): You can remove the exhausted, nauseated, poisoned, or stunned condition from one individual touched.

Greater Renewal (Expend 4 Charge Points to use this ability): You can remove a negative level or the blinded, deafened, or diseased condition from one individual touched.


If a creature or sentient object fails it's will save against this ability the essence leech gains 1 charge point for the next 24 hours (he cannot have more than 1 charge point per 5 levels at any time (minimum 1)).

I added healing because my DM suggested it.

EDIT: Made all charge points expire at midnight for ease of book keeping.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-10-30, 04:39 PM
Honestly, this looks like a step in the right direction, at least from a game-design standpoint. Suck the life out of creatures and objects, and re-purpose it. Heal your allies! Buff yourself! And so on!