Sneaky gish build help

[A_S]

Hey, y'all.

I'm trying to figure out a good sneaky gish. I'm hoping for:
-16 BAB
-9th level wiz/sorc casting
-Enough skills to be sneaky and serve as party skillmonkey
-No LA
-Minimal cheese

I've already worked out a build, most of which I'm happy with, but the last five levels feel very inelegant to me. The build as it stands is:

-----

Human

Abilities:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 17
Wis: 8
Cha: 9

1 - Human Paragon 1 - Able Learner, Combat Casting
2 - Wizard (Combat Prowess ACF) 1 - Power Attack
3 - Human Paragon 2 - Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard), Extend Spell
4 - Human Paragon 3 - Int 20
5 - Wizard 2
6 - Spellthief 1 - Master Spellthief
7 - Unseen Seer 1
8 - Unseen Seer 2 - Int 21
9 - Unseen Seer 3 - Arcane Strike
10 - Unseen Seer 4
11 - Abjurant Champion 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 2 - Iron Will, Int 22
13 - Abjurant Champion 3
14 - Abjurant Champion 4
15 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Dodge
16 - Dragonslayer 1 - Int 23
17 - Spellsword 1
18 - Eldritch Knight 1 - Persistent Spell, Improved Initiative
19 - Eldritch Knight 2
20 - Eldritch Knight 3 - Int 24

-----

I like the first fifteen levels, but I hate wasting two useless feats to get into Dragonslayer, just so I can get the proficiencies I need to qualify for Spellsword and EK (and then having a relatively useless fighter bonus feat from EK late in the build). Is there something else I could take for those five levels that'd get me 4/5 casting and 5/5 BAB?

[Arcane_Snowman]

Hey, y'all.

I'm trying to figure out a good sneaky gish. I'm hoping for:
-16 BAB
-9th level wiz/sorc casting
-Enough skills to be sneaky and serve as party skillmonkey
-No LA
-Minimal cheese

I've already worked out a build, most of which I'm happy with, but the last five levels feel very inelegant to me. The build as it stands is:

-----

Human

Abilities:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 17
Wis: 8
Cha: 9

1 - Human Paragon 1 - Able Learner, Combat Casting
2 - Wizard (Combat Prowess ACF) 1 - Power Attack
3 - Human Paragon 2 - Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard), Extend Spell
4 - Human Paragon 3 - Int 20
5 - Wizard 2
6 - Spellthief 1 - Master Spellthief
7 - Unseen Seer 1
8 - Unseen Seer 2 - Int 21
9 - Unseen Seer 3 - Arcane Strike
10 - Unseen Seer 4
11 - Abjurant Champion 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 2 - Iron Will, Int 22
13 - Abjurant Champion 3
14 - Abjurant Champion 4
15 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Dodge
16 - Dragonslayer 1 - Int 23
17 - Spellsword 1
18 - Eldritch Knight 1 - Persistent Spell, Improved Initiative
19 - Eldritch Knight 2
20 - Eldritch Knight 3 - Int 24

-----

I like the first fifteen levels, but I hate wasting two useless feats to get into Dragonslayer, just so I can get the proficiencies I need to qualify for Spellsword and EK (and then having a relatively useless fighter bonus feat from EK late in the build). Is there something else I could take for those five levels that'd get me 4/5 casting and 5/5 BAB? The question is, why do you want to do all 3 things, you could do much better if you decided to focus on 2 of the 3 instead of trying for all three.

With the gish classes you're sacrificing a lot of skill points, which you could mitigate with spells, but that begs the question why you're not just getting spells to cover the sneaky parts in the first place. And if you're after the sneak attack, you'd be better off just doing full Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster with the Acidic Splatter reserve feat for some truly nasty Greater Invisibility shenanigans.

Otyugh Hole from Complete Scoundrel can give you Iron Will for 3000 gp, frees up a feat slot.

[dgnslyr]

I guess you could somehow stick a level of Spellblade in there? It's a one level prestige class that gives full BAB and Caster Level progression, with some arcane spell reduction tidbits in there. Not much in the way of abilities, but it's one level of not losing anything from either side.

yeah there's more levels but nobody takes them because it's a 5/10 spellcasting PrC

[A_S]

The question is, why do you want to do all 3 things, you could do much better if you decided to focus on 2 of the 3 instead of trying for all three.

With the gish classes you're sacrificing a lot of skill points, which you could mitigate with spells, but that begs the question why you're not just getting spells to cover the sneaky parts in the first place. And if you're after the sneak attack, you'd be better off just doing full Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster with the Acidic Splatter reserve feat for some truly nasty Greater Invisibility shenanigans.

Yeah, but...sneaky spellcaster with a sword! The whole "Vlad Taltos" archetype, you know? It's cool! I guess maybe it's odd that I'm trying to optimize an inherently sub-optimal character concept, but still something I enjoy doing.

Otyugh Hole from Complete Scoundrel can give you Iron Will for 3000 gp, frees up a feat slot.

Hm, that'd save one feat, at least...


I guess you could somehow stick a level of Spellblade in there? It's a one level prestige class that gives full BAB and Caster Level progression, with some arcane spell reduction tidbits in there. Not much in the way of abilities, but it's one level of not losing anything from either side.

yeah there's more levels but nobody takes them because it's a 5/10 spellcasting PrC
I think you're talking about Spellsword, which I already dipped...but it requires proficiencies, which is why I had to take the Dragonslayer in the first place.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Replace Spellthief with Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter), possibly also with Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) if you want a few more skill points and don't need armor proficiencies to dip Spellsword. That should give you some BAB leeway to take Unseen Seer to 8. Take the Summon Elemental reserve feat instead of getting Trapfinding, just have that free throw-away minion run ahead of the party, open all the doors and chests, throw all the levers, push all the buttons, etc.

If your DM doesn't houserule (Greater) Mage Armor to work with Abjurant Champion's bonus, you'll need to use (Greater) Luminous Armor, which means you'll need to cast it with Invisible Spell or use a Deeper Darkness or maybe a Heightened Darkness or Heightened (Persistent) Veil of Shadow to be able to hide.

You can visit (or pay gold and say you visited) the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it. If you're going to get Dodge, take a look at Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327).


1 - Human Paragon 1 - Able Learner, Extend Spell
2 - Wizard (Combat Prowess ACF) 1 - Power Attack
3 - Human Paragon 2 - Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard), Invisible Spell
4 - Human Paragon 3 - Int 20
5 - Wizard 2
6 - Sneak Attack Fighter 1 - Combat Casting
7 - Unseen Seer 1
8 - Unseen Seer 2 - Int 21 - Silent Spell
9 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Summon Elemental
10 - Abjurant Champion 2
11 - Abjurant Champion 3
12 - Abjurant Champion 4 - Arcane Strike, Int 22
13 - Abjurant Champion 5
14 - Unseen Seer 3
15 - Unseen Seer 4 - Minor Shapeshift
16 - Spellsword 1 - Int 23
17 - Unseen Seer 5
18 - Unseen Seer 6 - Persistent Spell
19 - Unseen Seer 7
20 - Unseen Seer 8 - Int 24

BAB +16, 18th level Wizard spellcasting.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I forget what its called, but its a PrC used to fill out Socardin builds, it has 3/4 BAB, not sure if you'll hit 16 with that but you could try that. IIRC, its full casting gives TU, and 3/4 BAB.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I forget what its called, but its a PrC used to fill out Socardin builds, it has 3/4 BAB, not sure if you'll hit 16 with that but you could try that. IIRC, its full casting gives TU, and 3/4 BAB.

Sacred Exorcist, and his original build would be better off with more Unseen Seer over that, but it can't afford to lose any more BAB.

[A_S]

[snip]

This is great, thanks. Can't remember why I was so fixed on putting Spellthief in there; I guess the light armor, but can wear a mithral chain shirt with just the Spellsword level anyway, even if I can't finagle a decent armor spell into abjuration.

Cheers.

[Vowtz]

Jade Phoenix Bard

Human bard 1[PH]/warblade 2[ToB]/ bard+3/Jade Phoenix Mage 4[ToB]/Sublime Chord 2[CA]/JPM+6/Abjurant champion 2[CM]

BAB: +18
Sorc/wiz spells: 9th
blade magic: 8th


Bard 1 -> skills
warblade 2 -> bab, maneuvers
bard+3 -> skills, magic
Jade Phoenix Mage 4 -> bab, maneuvers, magic
Sublime Chord 2 -> magic
JPM+6-> bab, maeuvers, magic
Abjurant Champion 2 -> bab, magic

Suggested Feats(for versatility purposes):

H -Able Learner[RoD]: Skills
1 -Improved Initiative
3 -Martial Study(Shadow Jaunt)[ToB]: will give you great mobility and hide as a class skill for all your classes
6 -Touch of Healing[CC]: free healing for all your party
9 -Slot Free
12 -Arcane Strike[CW]: To help your fighting
15 -Summon Elemental[CM]: Utility Purposes
18 -Combat Casting: required for abjurant champ


You can buff your friends(and yourself), have a lot of skill points in the beginning, have combat maneuvers to fight, Heal yourself and your friends, have bardic knowledge to help in quests and in the end is a mighty caster.


[PH] Players handbook
[ToB] Tome of Battle
[RoD] Races of Destiny
[CW] Complete Warrior
[CC] Complete Champion
[CA] Complete Arcane
[CM] Complete Mage