Statting Zombie Dragon

[Shadowbite]

Hello everyone, I'm playing a lvl 12/3/3 dread necromancer, master specialist (necromancy of course), archmage. Caster level 18. Last session we killed a Mature Adult Blue dragon http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blueDragon

Which I promptly raised into a dragon zombie (from Dragonomicon), the trouble is that I'm trying to stat it out and feel like I'm messing up and would like some help. I also have a question, I'm trying to follow the example of the zombie dragon in the Draconomicon (pg. 198) and it lists the zombie dragon as having a full attack. I'm confused I thought that having the Slow special quality only allows you to take a single standard action or move action and thus you can't make a full attack action. I'm pretty confused about it.

I'm raising the dragon with the 9th level spell Plague of Undead so maximum hp per level. I'm a dread necromancer so my undead that I create get a +4 enhancement bonus to Str. and +2 Hp per HD. I also have the feat corpse crafter for a +4 enhancement bonus to str (I know it doesn't stack) and dex. I also have the spell Awaken Undead which I will use on the zombie to make it get back its feats and skills.

Here is what I have so far.

HP 387, Speed 40 ft, burrow 20 ft. fly 150 ft. (clumsy),Init. +5, AC 20 (+11 nat, -2 size, +1 dex), Base Atk +24, Grp +41, Atk +33 melee (2d8+11, bite); Full Atk +33 melee (2d8+11 bite), +31 melee (2d6+6, 2 claws), +31 melee (1d8+6, 2 wings), +31 melee (2d6+15, tail slap); Space/Reach 15ft./10 ft. (bite 15 ft.); Breath Weapon (7d8, Reflex Save DC 22 half), darkvision 60 ft, immunity to lightning, DR 5/slashing, slow

Fort.? Ref. +15, Will +14
Str. 33 (+11), Dex. 12 (+1), Con -, Int. 10 (+0), Wis 10. (+0), Cha 10. (+0)

Skills
Bluff ?, Concentration ?, Diplomacy ?, Hide?, Intimidate?, Knowledge (arcana)?, Knowledge (nature)?, Listen?, Search?, Sense Motive?, Spellcraft?, Spot?


Feats
Ability Focus (Frightful Presence), Alertness, Combat Expertise, Eschew Materials, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Multi-attack, Power Attack

Any help would be incredibly appreciated. Thank you!

[Runestar]

You are right in that a zombie dragon would normally get only 1 attack/round. However, I suppose its full attack routine is added there for completeness sake. For example, a half-dragon lion zombie would have pounce, and thus be able to make a full attack even after charging as a standard action.

Okay, so this example is somewhat contrived, but you see my point? I suppose if you could persuade your DM to have it take dire charge when it regains its int score...:smalltongue:

Basically, it seems that raising it as a skeleton may be more worthwhile instead? Also, I am AFB at the moment, so can't help you in any way. :smallredface:

[ILM]

You are right in that a zombie dragon would normally get only 1 attack/round. However, I suppose its full attack routine is added there for completeness sake. For example, a half-dragon lion zombie would have pounce, and thus be able to make a full attack even after charging as a standard action.

Okay, so this example is somewhat contrived, but you see my point? I suppose if you could persuade your DM to have it take dire charge when it regains its int score...:smalltongue:

Basically, it seems that raising it as a skeleton may be more worthwhile instead? Also, I am AFB at the moment, so can't help you in any way. :smallredface:
Charging is a full-round action. Also, skeletons can't fly so I can see why he'd want a zombie dragon.

Corpsecrafter doesn't add +4 to dex; instead it adds another 2 hp/HD. Awaken Undead doesn't give the dragon its feats back, though it does give it back its (Ex) special qualities. I bolded the changes below.

HP 432, Speed 40 ft, burrow 20 ft. fly 150 ft. (clumsy),Init. -1, AC 18 (+11 nat, -2 size, -1 dex), Base Atk +24, Grp +43, Atk +33 melee (2d8+11, bite); Full Atk +33 melee (2d8+11 bite), +31 melee (2d6+6, 2 claws), +31 melee (1d8+6, 2 wings), +31 melee (2d6+15, tail slap); Space/Reach 15ft./10 ft. (bite 15 ft.); Breath Weapon (7d8, Reflex Save DC 22 half), immunity to lightning, DR 5/slashing, slow, undead traits, Sound Imitation, Crush, Spell Resistance 22, Blindsense, Keen Senses (including Darkvision 120 ft).

Fort.- Ref. +13, Will +14
Str. 33 (+11), Dex. 8 (-1), Con -, Int. 10 (+0), Wis 10. (+0), Cha 10. (+0)

Skills: None

[Coidzor]

^: And Zombies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm) can charge.
Single Actions Only (Ex)

Zombies have poor reflexes and can perform only a single move action or attack action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round, but only if it attempts a charge.

OP: No desecrate (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)?

[ILM]

^: And Zombies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm) can charge.
Ah, so they can; I stand corrected.

edit: wait no, I don't. The Zombie template in the SRD states that, but the Zombie Dragon template in Draconomicon (which is the latest one and would take precedence) has no such provision. Admittedly though, it prefaces the description with "Like zombies" so I guess you could ask your DM whether it extends to charges or not.

[Runestar]

Charging as a standard action is not confined solely to zombies. Anyone can do so, but only if they are limited to only a standard action for that round (such as a barb affected by the slow spell). So a zombie dragon can still charge even if this is not stated in its entry.:smallsmile:

[ILM]

Charging as a standard action is not confined solely to zombies. Anyone can do so, but only if they are limited to only a standard action for that round (such as a barb affected by the slow spell). So a zombie dragon can still charge even if this is not stated in its entry.:smallsmile:
My bad, you're entirely right. I missed that part of the Charge rules: "If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn."

Nevermind me! :smallsmile:

[Shadowbite]

Thank you everyone for the responses.

To Coidzor: Unfortunately no Desecrate since this undead creation took place in a pocket Hell dimension, so I had no chance to get any sort of desecrate magic item and didn't have anything on hand.

To IM: The +4 dexterity bonus comes from the lvl 8 Dread Necromancer class feature Undead Mastery. I mixed up the effects of Corpse crafter with Undead Mastery.

Hm... I see that you are right about Awaken Undead not giving back feats or skills. I think that I had before that it did and hadn't double checked. Yeah now I see where i read that. From

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook_%283.5e_Optimized_Cha racter_Build%29/Proper_Care_and_Feeding_of_Skeletons

"Eventually you will get your grubby mitts on Awaken Undead and then you can start considering the abilities of dead bodies. Note that the Spell Compendium version of Awaken Undead gives back feats and skills to your skeles. The problem is that your DM will decide if you pick those feats and skills or he does, since its not mentioned in the rules, meaning they might have awesome fighter feat chains that you pick or complete crap like Toughness taken seven times that your DM might pick for ease of use."

Totally didn't realize that the dragon kept Spell Resistance, nice. Not sure where my HP totals are off. Thanks for all the help.

[JaronK]

Awaken Undead does give feats, because all undead do get feats. The exception is unintelligent undead, who don't. Once you awaken your zombie, now he's intelligent undead, should he should in fact get his feats.

Skills aren't generally retroactively gained, so I'm not sure he'd get those. They are an Ex ability (see the FAQ), so if Awaken Undead says it gives those back you do get them.

JaronK

[Coidzor]

Skill points are a function of having a HD and an int score anyway, so denying them skillpoints is just showing the DM trying to be petty anyway, when it was his choice to OK minion necromancy.

Problem being that assigning them is annoying for most monsters, as rarely are class skills ever really given. I think dragon variants are one of the few exceptions to this though. Of course, changing the dragon HD to undead HD means **** for skill points in the same way their BAB plunges.

[Shadowbite]

What would the dragon's Fort save be?

I know that they are immune to most fort effects unless it also effects objects (like the spell Disintegrate).

[Daftendirekt]

...How the hell are you a master specialist? You're not a wizard. One of the requirements for Master Specialist: "You must be a specialist wizard". You're a focused sorcerer, essentially. Not sure what's worse, that you thought that would work or that your DM didn't catch and rectify it.

[Diefje]

What would the dragon's Fort save be?

I know that they are immune to most fort effects unless it also effects objects (like the spell Disintegrate).

1/3 HD Fort is standard for zombies

[Runestar]

Skill points are a function of having a HD and an int score anyway, so denying them skillpoints is just showing the DM trying to be petty anyway, when it was his choice to OK minion necromancy.

Not entirely true. If you look at the incarnate construct template in savage species, it states that the golem gains no feats or skill points when it gets an int score. So you have a creature with an int score, but no feats or skill ranks.

Though awaken undead has no such clause, one could interpret that the aforementioned precedent suggests that after a monster has lost its int score, it would not retroactively get them back if it would later acquire an int score.:smalltongue:

[JaronK]

But RAW is that intelligent undead get feats and unintelligent ones don't, so I'd go with that.

JaronK

[Coidzor]

Not entirely true. If you look at the incarnate construct template in savage species, it states that the golem gains no feats or skill points when it gets an int score. So you have a creature with an int score, but no feats or skill ranks.

Though awaken undead has no such clause, one could interpret that the aforementioned precedent suggests that after a monster has lost its int score, it would not retroactively get them back if it would later acquire an int score.:smalltongue:

Your statement and emoticon do not seem to actually contradict the sentiment that the issue is less about RAW or kludging the system into something appearing coherency and more interpersonal in nature.

[MesiDoomstalker]

...How the hell are you a master specialist? You're not a wizard. One of the requirements for Master Specialist: "You must be a specialist wizard". You're a focused sorcerer, essentially. Not sure what's worse, that you thought that would work or that your DM didn't catch and rectify it.

Greater Spell Foucus (Necromancy), Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and an extra spell doesn't seem terribly broken. Still illegal but he could do much worse.

[Shadowbite]

To Annulus: You are correct, normally a dread necromancer wouldn't be able to take Master Specialist without a dip in wizard. I petitioned my DM about allowing Dread Necromancer to count toward Master Specialist's, specialist wizard requirement when I turned level 12 in Dread Necromancer. He said it was okay since it was very similar conceptually and I wasn't trying to break anything, merely trying to get to Archmage in reasonable time while keeping my necro theme. My bad for not mentioning the house ruling.

[Fouredged Sword]

Awakening the dragon is a very good idea. Spellcasting is not listed as a typed ability on the stat block, so it defaults to an EX ability (the spells themselves are otherwise, but the ability to cast them is EX)

This returns to the dragon when it gets awakened. Yes the spellcasting stat is horrid, but now it can use sorcerer/wiz items without UMD checks. That and buffs don't need saves.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Awakening the dragon is a very good idea. Spellcasting is not listed as a typed ability on the stat block, so it defaults to an EX ability (the spells themselves are otherwise, but the ability to cast them is EX)

This returns to the dragon when it gets awakened. Yes the spellcasting stat is horrid, but now it can use sorcerer/wiz items without UMD checks. That and buffs don't need saves.

To use scrolls and wands and such, you still need a casting stat high enough.

[Coidzor]

To use scrolls and wands and such, you still need a casting stat high enough.

If its worth killing and zombifying for its casting, it should have a high enough stat to still be able to cast low level stuff and a vendor-trash item of cha+ as part of its hoard/gear. Probably worth more to the party to have 'em in use for the additional support than what they'd make by selling them for half, or even 60ish percent of the cost with good haggling.

Might be competitive with someone with the mercantile background feat haggling to get around 85% of the price, but if you've got someone with that set up, you should really have an artificer who can set you up with replacements and still profit.

And if they're moving that much magical product, the additional muscle of zombie dragons with casting and a decent kit is probably a welcome thing for security's sake.

[ILM]

I don't know why I said earlier that the dragon didn't get feats back. Says so right there in the spell description: "see MM290 for information on skills and feats the creature gains." It's interesting how they specifically changed that in SpC from the LM version. In fact, you could argue that not only do they get feats, but it doesn't say anywhere they have to be the same as when they were alive (though you might want to run that by your DM).



Awakening the dragon is a very good idea. Spellcasting is not listed as a typed ability on the stat block, so it defaults to an EX ability (the spells themselves are otherwise, but the ability to cast them is EX)
I like how you state this as fact, when a month ago you asked the question on these very boards and someone gave you a pretty sensible response that indicated at the very least that it was up for debate. Lemme quote his answer here:

The usual debate here centers around a couple of clauses:

1. In the Rules Compendium it states that any ability that is not specifically called out as Ex., Su. or Sp. is a natural ability.

This implies that Spellcasting, not being called out as any of the three categories, is a natural ability.

and...

2. In the Monster Manual, Spellcasting is listed as a Special Ability. From SRD:

Special Abilities

"A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature."

Accordingly, since spellcasting is neither supernatural nor spell-like, it must be extraordinary.

The debate that follows tends to circle around primary sources, namely, whether or not the primary source for rules is the Rules Compendium, in which case it overrules the Monster Manual, or whether or not the Monster Manual is the primary source for this rule set.

I leave the interpretation to you, but from a balance perspective, a Druid who uses Shapechange to turn into a Dragon inherits all its Ex. and Su. abilities. If Spellcasting is Ex. then Druids gain up to around 20th level Sorcerer casting in addition to their Druid casting while Shapechanged...do you really need to supercharge arguably the most powerful class in the game? Rule as you will. In terms of Awaken Undead...do you really think that your Cleric or Wizard should have a second primary spellcaster under its influence?

The official rules conflict, so I tend toward ruling in favor of sanity, and accordingly consider Spellcasting to be a natural ability. I take the Rules Compendium as the primary source in this instance.
Personally, I'd go with Rules Compendium as it's the latest source and it makes more sense in this instance.

[Coidzor]

Personally, I'd go with Rules Compendium as it's the latest source and it makes more sense in this instance.

Or that all spellcasting is covered by that monster manual entry as being called out, so even with the Rules Compendium it doesn't count as unspecified.

Which keeps natural abilities more neat in terms of mostly being things like movement modes.

[Shadowbite]

A bit confused. so is the consensus that the dragon would get its sorcerer spells?

Also what determines what spells the dragon has? DM I'm assuming?

[Coidzor]

A bit confused. so is the consensus that the dragon would get its sorcerer spells?

Also what determines what spells the dragon has? DM I'm assuming?

There's some suggested spells known somewhere or another, but, yeah, if you kill a dragon and restore its spellcasting, one interpretation would be that it regains the spells known it knew when alive.

The other is it gains entirely new ones and then it's whether the DM wants to do the work to make it "balanced" or foist it off on the player so he can maximize its power