Balancing a houserule: on death

[ILM]

The largest change I've made in my game is about death. I've completely removed resurrection spells from play. If you're dead, you're dead and you're staying that way barring plot intervention.

Of course, this makes the game quite lethal so I've adjusted the mechanics of death just a bit to give my PCs a chance: basically, you die from hp damage when you're brought to -10 or less. From the moment you reach -10, you have one full round (i.e. until the start of the next turn of whoever dealt the killing blow) before you die. If your allies (or a contingency or whatever) are able to bring you back over -10, you're saved but exhausted.

Now here's what occurred to me this morning. This is crippling for martial characters - that much is working as designed. However, it's barely a nuisance for casters. They can see the pearly gates, get healed, and one round later they're back to slinging spells. I have a problem with that.

I don't necessarily want to take them out of the fight, but I'd like their effectiveness to be severely reduced as well. I could go one further and rule, for instance, that if you're saved you're stuck at -9 hp and stable, and can only be healed by natural healing. But if I didn't want to go that far, how could I appropriately convey to spellcasters the lingering effects of almost dying?

[Andreaz]

The largest change I've made in my game is about death. I've completely removed resurrection spells from play. If you're dead, you're dead and you're staying that way barring plot intervention.

Of course, this makes the game quite lethal so I've adjusted the mechanics of death just a bit to give my PCs a chance: basically, you die from hp damage when you're brought to -10 or less. From the moment you reach -10, you have one full round (i.e. until the start of the next turn of whoever dealt the killing blow) before you die. If your allies (or a contingency or whatever) are able to bring you back over -10, you're saved but exhausted.

Now here's what occurred to me this morning. This is crippling for martial characters - that much is working as designed. However, it's barely a nuisance for casters. They can see the pearly gates, get healed, and one round later they're back to slinging spells. I have a problem with that.

I don't necessarily want to take them out of the fight, but I'd like their effectiveness to be severely reduced as well. I could go one further and rule, for instance, that if you're saved you're stuck at -9 hp and stable, and can only be healed by natural healing. But if I didn't want to go that far, how could I appropriately convey to spellcasters the lingering effects of almost dying?

Drop out an available spell/slot of each level, or put them at a heavy caster level penalty, like 2/3 or half, until the "holy crap did I really survive that" effect passes.

[Elfinor]

Perhaps change the houserule to -10 or minus 1/3 max HP (whichever is higher)=death? Since spellcasters already have quite low max HP...

Another method would perhaps be to keep your current system but simply have them gain a negative level and/or just lose some spells from a near death experience.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Andreaz on the spell loss idea. Just:smalltongue:

[supermonkeyjoe]

I'd go with the effect that raise dead has on spellcasters

A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised...


A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell...

[The Boz]

I never liked the -10, way too many ways of outright killing, especially on high levels. Also, AoE spells.
How about -50% health?

[W3bDragon]

It depends if spells like Revivify and Close Wounds are available in your game. If they are, death becomes much less of an issue. With those spells available, if someone still manages to die, its usually a TPK.

However, when it comes to houseruling something for death. I'd suggest you go with negative levels, because it impacts both melee and casters. In fact, with no resurrection available, it wouldn't be too bad if you ruled that the dead character has his HD worth of rounds until he gets healed, but every round he spends dead gives him 1 negative level. So a 6th level character who outright dies, then is healed 4 round later, comes back with 4 negative levels.

The caveat here is how negative levels are handled in your game. If restorations are easily available, then this house rule won't be of any use. However, if they are difficult to receive, then it can work.

I define difficult by meaning that you won't get access to restoration mid adventure most of the time. Usually you'd have to wait until the end of the current story arc or adventure before getting downtime in which you sort out some restorations for your PCs.

To avoid a PC cleric spamming restorations on the party, you could rule that a cleric can cast restoration on someone who worships the same deity as the cleric without issue, but if its someone who worships a different deity, a ritual that requires (some random time interval) is needed to plead with the deity to intercede on behalf of this non-believer.

[docnessuno]

Possible fix:

Death at:
A) -(Max HP) HP
B) -(1/2 Max HP) HP

Dying (no actions possible) between -10 and death threesold (and possibly no normal stabilization possible)
Disabled (only 1 standard or move, costing 1 HP) between 0 and -10

Considering that noncaster have (usually) more hp, this would give them an edge in avoiding death, giving their groupmates time to heal them.

[Coidzor]

Of course, this makes the game quite lethal so I've adjusted the mechanics of death just a bit to give my PCs a chance:

Now here's what occurred to me this morning. This is crippling for martial characters - that much is working as designed. However, it's barely a nuisance for casters. They can see the pearly gates, get healed, and one round later they're back to slinging spells. I have a problem with that.

...Your throwing your players a bone is intentionally crippling them? Especially the mundanes who can't have nice things anyway? :smallconfused: Maybe that's the problem.

[ILM]

...Your throwing your players a bone is intentionally crippling them? Especially the mundanes who can't have nice things anyway? :smallconfused: Maybe that's the problem.
Not sure what you mean, but I think you may have misunderstood. The exhausted condition is crippling for melee; not so for casters. My point was that it's unfair (and especially because mundanes can't have nice things). I'm looking for something that would be equally crippling to casters but wouldn't further affect the mundanes. As for the general lethality of removing resurrection and whether or not it's a smart thing to do in the first place, I'm not discussing that here.

To answer a number of suggestions here: I like the 50% chance to lose each spell (good catch) but I fear it might be a little much dice-rolling and detract from the action. For this reason I'm leaning towards a hit to caster level. Negative levels may be a bit too harsh for me.

Also, I may review the -10 thing to make it -max HP or -50% max or something else that scales, thanks for the idea. However, I can't introduce a delay like W3bDragon suggested because a number of save-or-dies have riding effects (die and explode, dealing xd6 to everyone around, for instance). The one-round delay I introduced as a 'last chance' thing may be explained as death throes and resisting the effects and what-not for 6 seconds, but I'd be hard pressed to explain why you'd explode 15 rounds after being hit with the spell and dropping to the ground... Also, frankly, if they have HD rounds they probably have nothing to worry about by level 7/8 or so as the fights will be over anyway. I want them to have that sense of urgency.

[Mystral]

In my games, the houserule concerning death is:

You die at -(Your ECL+Your Constitution Score).
If you are killed by something other then hit point damage (finger of death and so on) you are at -(Your ECL+your constitution score-1), so 1 HP before death, and dying.
You also die if you have sustained physical ability damage exceeding 1,5 your ability score. If you sustain mental ability damage exceeding 1,5 your ability score, feeblemind.

On the other hand, I'd advise you to go with the 50% chance to lose a spell.

[Medic!]

What about making casters have to make a concentration check to cast as their form of "death fatigue" or increasing cast times of any spell to full round+?

[Coidzor]

Not sure what you mean, but I think you may have misunderstood. The exhausted condition is crippling for melee; not so for casters. My point was that it's unfair (and especially because mundanes can't have nice things). I'm looking for something that would be equally crippling to casters but wouldn't further affect the mundanes. As for the general lethality of removing resurrection and whether or not it's a smart thing to do in the first place, I'm not discussing that here.

An exhausted character that's at low HP from having been brought back from negatives is very quickly going to be a dead character as it can't run away without an absurdly high move speed. And it can't really contribute either.

Without a very deliberate form of whack-a-mole being played where the healer isn't having its face eaten off by whatever rocked the socks off of the melee, seeing as most healing spells are touch spells, I don't really see this houserule as anything but giving a false hope once or twice before the healer gets its face ripped off and whoever served as bait getting to enjoy being eviscerated a second time.

You'd have to go into borked "Casting spells kills your character because I hate casters" territory to get to that level of screwed.

So, in case that didn't clear it up, I'll state it more plainly. I'm suggesting you instead consider a less severe drawback aside from the ones that are already implicitly there just from being dropped, requiring another character to bring you up and not spend their actions ending the fight, and generally going back into the fray with less HP than one had before being dropped by whatever it is they're going back to fight.

You didn't ask for an alternative to exhaustion, you asked for something to put on top of it. When, rather than giving them a fair shake like you claim to be with your alteration of the rules, you're mostly just setting it up so that characters with healing capabilities are tricked into trying to bring someone up, only to find that they rolled poorly and the character is still below -10 and now they're getting their faces bitten off by what just did in their buddy or they bring their buddy back up, only to watch him get dropped again casually and then they get ganked.

As in, you're just giving additional drawbacks when, from what you've said, your goal was to at least partially mitigate the drawback of taking resurrection magic out.

[ILM]

An exhausted character that's at low HP from having been brought back from negatives is very quickly going to be a dead character as it can't run away without an absurdly high move speed. And it can't really contribute either.

Without a very deliberate form of whack-a-mole being played where the healer isn't having its face eaten off by whatever rocked the socks off of the melee, seeing as most healing spells are touch spells, I don't really see this houserule as anything but giving a false hope once or twice before the healer gets its face ripped off and whoever served as bait getting to enjoy being eviscerated a second time.

You'd have to go into borked "Casting spells kills your character because I hate casters" territory to get to that level of screwed.

So, in case that didn't clear it up, I'll state it more plainly. I'm suggesting you instead consider a less severe drawback aside from the ones that are already implicitly there just from being dropped, requiring another character to bring you up and not spend their actions ending the fight, and generally going back into the fray with less HP than one had before being dropped by whatever it is they're going back to fight.

You didn't ask for an alternative to exhaustion, you asked for something to put on top of it. When, rather than giving them a fair shake like you claim to be with your alteration of the rules, you're mostly just setting it up so that characters with healing capabilities are tricked into trying to bring someone up, only to find that they rolled poorly and the character is still below -10 and now they're getting their faces bitten off by what just did in their buddy or they bring their buddy back up, only to watch him get dropped again casually and then they get ganked.

As in, you're just giving additional drawbacks when, from what you've said, your goal was to at least partially mitigate the drawback of taking resurrection magic out.
Ah, I see.

Okay, so first maybe I should clarify my objective some more. I didn't want resurrection to be a commodity. It poses way too many logic issues (IMO or even IMC, obviously) and I really don't like the casual 'brb, dead for a bit' vibe that those spells give the game.

However, I don't want to make the game a brutally lethal thing, where late-level rocket-tag means no character will survive more than 2 sessions (half a session if not a caster).

What does death do when rezzes are available? You're instantly taken out of the fight, your party keeps on trucking, and provided you still have a corpse either it's going to be a TPK or your party will resurrect you after the battle is done (that's making a number of assumptions, of course: that you have the resources, the spells, the components, the time, etc. - assumptions that I feel are not entirely unreasonable for a party of appropriate levels).

I don't mind this aspect of death, so I aim to keep it. But then, how to best ensure that you are taken out of the fight while not cheapening the whole experience ("Death doesn't exist, the worst that can happen is getting incapacitated! Rainbows and kittens! Here's a CR -5 monster with nails made of candy, try not to hurt yourselves!")? Death still needs to be a threat, and needs to threaten players about as often as perma-death happens in a regular D&D game.

In short, what I'm really trying to do here isn't to alter the balance of the game at all; I'm just trying to get rid of the fluff aspect of 'you died but Mr. Cleric McHoly does a bit of mumbo jumbo and you're all better now' which I really can't get behind. Unfortunately, with death being such a fundamental part of the game (since it's kind of the only mechanical loss condition), it is a rather difficult exercise.

Back to my specific houserule-in-the-making. You get hit for massive damage or eat a save-or-die, and your hp goes below whatever threshold I settle on. You are, in the old sense of the word, dead. Except your pals get one 6-second chance to save your bacon. This, of course, already differs balance-wise from the normal death-resurrection mechanic. For one, you're costing in-combat actions to your buddies, which they would normally spend blasting the face off your enemies. For two, if you're not dead anymore, nothing stops you from joining the fight again - however dumb that may be. Now I don't want to take that option away from the PCs, because there may arise circumstances where they think the gamble is worth it: dying, being saved in extremis, and striking your foe down with your last remaining strength, knowing full well that if you don't kill him with that swing he'll definitely get you with the next. However, I do want to make it a gamble, hence the exhausted part: -6 to Str and Dex sounded like the right balance. It just didn't actually matter for casters (a problem I hoped to address, hence this thread).

Now you bring up interesting points. I hadn't thought that this lured the healers in. However, having given it some thought, I don't think that's as big an issue as you make it. For one, you can get killed in melee, yes, but also from range. If the healer's just a healbot, he's likely to be near the other PCs anyway, so he's just as exposed as they are as soon as he throws one healing spell (and here's to hoping he doesn't wait until someone drops to cast his first CLW). If he isn't, then he's also within range since he's either buffing them or slinging attack spells or hitting stuff in melee. In other words, I don't think the healer needs to "get back in the fray" systematically. Of course, if you're up against one melee BBEG and he slices through you, the healer is definitely going to need to walk up to him, and may not be armed for that kind of danger. However, I submit to you that it's pretty much the same if he tries to heal your bacon before you drop.

However, I can't disagree with you on the added action cost and what it means for the party's chances of surviving the encounter. Also, on the fact that if you're saved but weakened, the BBEG could just start a loop of killing you again and again until the healer is out of charges. On the other hand, consider this: if the BBEG spends his turn killing you again, and your healer spends his saving you again, then the rest of the party gets free pot-shots against the BBEG, and it's a net gain for you as long as the healer can keep it up. Is that actually all bad?

I really don't see what to do about the action cost. For the rest, the only idea I have is to let your party heal you, and then you're still unconscious but stable until rested. It hits casters and noncasters just as harshly, but at least the enemy won't keep killing you as soon as you stand up. However, you don't get a chance to get back in the fray, weakened but determined.

Have you got any other ideas?

(probably the biggest wall of text I've posted here :smalltongue:)

[Diefje]

How about an autofail on concentration checks, and maybe some %spell failure while exhausted. Then when fatigued, just a penalty on concentration and half the %spell failure.

I assume your goal is to get people to rest and heal up for the rest of the day. You can slap on pretty severe penalties, given the alternative is perma-dead.

[Coidzor]

Have you got any other ideas?

Probably should look in to a wounds/vitality system if you want weakened but determined. SAGA's got a pretty good one, IIRC, and there's UA.

[Lapak]

I really don't see what to do about the action cost. For the rest, the only idea I have is to let your party heal you, and then you're still unconscious but stable until rested. It hits casters and noncasters just as harshly, but at least the enemy won't keep killing you as soon as you stand up. However, you don't get a chance to get back in the fray, weakened but determined. I've been fiddling with the below-0-hit-points zone myself, lately, trying to make something work. It's not quite the same way you're taking it, but feel free to mine it for ideas.

For reference, my goals were:
- Death should be permanent.
- PCs should have a shot at avoiding it, and occasionally making dramatic recoveries or making sacrifice plays for the team.
- Dropping below 0 hit points should carry a significant penalty.
- The higher-level the character, the more resistant to death they should be.

INJURY AND DEATH
When a character is brought below 0 hit points, they are in danger of dying. Any time a character suffers a wound that brings them below 0 hit points (or suffers any wound when they are already below 0) the player must immediately make an Injury check by rolling 1d20 modified by their level and their current hit points.
Modified Injury Check Result:
0 or less: Character dies.

1-5: Character is dying. Each turn until they are healed, they take 5 additional points of damage and must make an immediate Injury check. (This new check may cause them to improve, stabilize or die as appropriate.)

6-10: Character is unconscious and helpless. They will awaken if brought above 0 hit points, but have the Disabled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#disabled0HitPoints)condition until fully healed.

11+: Character is Disabled. They may take a single move or standard action on their turn, though doing so causes them to suffer hit point damage and will require another immediate Injury check. The Disabled condition will expire when the character is brought back above 0 hit points.

Natural 20: Dramatic Recovery! The character's hit points are set to their character level, and they suffer no ill effects.

[Gabe the Bard]

If you want something more comparable to the exhaustion effect, I would add ability damage to int, wisdom and charisma. That will result in casters losing prepared spells and lowering their spell DCs, while martial characters won't be unaffected very much.

Exhaustion isn't that bad if you have a healer who can cast restoration, unless the exhaustion effect can't be cured by any means.

[Doughnut Master]

Why not just have bringing them back above -10 put them at alive, stable, but unconscious?

Also, instead of straight -10, you could go -Con Score. Gives the big burly types a bit more breathing room.