2nd attempt at Wrrior VS Wizard! Only 9hp !

[NimbleNZ]

EDIT: Changes have been made to this build, that affect its race, classes, HP, saves and more. please refer to post 34 of this thread for the updated build.

cheers :)

Hi,

Below is my second attempt at warrior vs wizard pvp, its built from arena-style matches.

first attempt was here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219592

arena is a 1000 ft cube, leaving the arena forfeits, celerity is allowed, only 1 contingency allowed, match lasts 50 rounds, audiance or DM decide the winner if both combatants still active at the end. I've used whatever books i can find for the warrior so the wizard can do the same.

build is an ikea tarrasque with awesome saves, mettle, and as many immunities as i can cram in. It also flies really fast (really).

tactics:
survive initial onlsaught (hopefully), then charge in and attack with chain. expect mage to contingency/teleport/etheral away, doesnt matter, just keep chasing him and flailing with the chain. if trapped by prismatic sphere walk through it, if trapped by other means try to Dimsension door out.
flail with chain some more.
if mage is invulnerable to your melee, attack his summoned creatures instead and wait for draw/try to gain points for style.

please let me know any weaknesses etc, ill try to compensate. im still a very new player so be nice :smallwink:

here goes...

ECL 20 Half-fey star elf (LA +2): Hexblade 3, Paladin 2, monk 2, barbarian 1, fighter 10

EDIT: Build is now a Human Monk 2/ fighter 1/ Hexblade 3/ paladin of tyranny 2/ blackguard 4/ Bone knight 8


Attributes (32 point buy):

Strength: 16/ +3
Constitution: 10 -2 (half fey) -2 (star elf) = 6/ -2
Dexterity: 12 +2 (half fey) = 14/ +2
Intelligence: 8/ -1
Wisdom: 8 +2 (half fey) = 10/ +0
Charisma: 18 +4 (half fey) +2 (star elf) +6 (cloak of charisma) +2 (ioun stone) = 32/ +11
HP: 9 (18d6 -54, if you can be hurt, you’re dead)
AC: should not matter and too tied to work it out!
BAB: +16
Attack: +19/+14/+9/+4
Damage: Lance with ubercharge or spiked chain with ubercharge (put some cool enhancements on the spiked chain).
Initiative: 6

Traits and flaws:
2 Traits:
-Quick trait: +10 to base land speed, but -1 hp per HD
-Aggressive trait: +2 initiative, but -1 AC
2 flaws (2 feats):
-Shaky (-2 to ranged attacks)
-Frail (-1 hp per level)

Speed:
Base speed: 40 ft +10 ft (barbarian) +10 ft (quick trait) + 10 ft (boots of springing/striding) = 70
Flight speed: ((70 ft + 30 ft (air heritage)) x2 fastest mode of movement (butterfly wings: x2 fastest mode of movement, in this case flight. FF p.89-90) = 200
Charging flight speed: 200 x2 = 400 ft
(if this is wrong please correct it, i started a thread on this here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220340)
Manoeuvrability: perfect!

(if boots of striding dont count towards the doubled flight speed then use boots of haste instead).

Saves:
Fortitude: 44 (55 against spells)
Reflex: 30 (40 against spells)
Will: 30 (40 against spells)

Class/racial immunities:
Damage becomes non-lethal (with some exceptions), non-lethal, stunning, poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, death effects, fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage, ability drain, damage to physical ability scores, ability drain, massive damage, enchantment
Item granted immunities:
Fire, acid, charm and compulsion effects, pain effects; immunity from being dazed, nauseated, sickened, or staggered

Levels and abilities:
Star elf: Ghost touch to all wielded weapons
Half-fey: Some spell-like abilities, butterfly wings (fiend folio) x2 fastest mode of movement!
Barbarian 1: Fast movement, rage, illiteracy
Fighter 2: Some feats!
Paladin of tyranny 2: divine grace (all we care about)
Blackguard 2: Dark blessing (all we care about)
Hex blade 3: Hexblade’s curse, arcane resistance, mettle!
Bone knight 8: Improved bonecraft armour, exoskeleton of undeath!

Feats: 7 for levels, 2 for fighter, 2 for flaws
Troll-blooded, EWP spiked chain, Power attack, Leap attack, Shock trooper, Blind fight, Mage slayer, Pierce magical concealment, Pierce magical protection, improved flight, and air heritage, endurance (from item).

Items:
• Custom item of continuous Favor of the Martyr (SpC). 128000GP, not sure which slot/any free. 128000 GP. I found it here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851
• Hathran Mask of True Seeing 75000 GP face
• Cloak of charisma +6 36000 GP shoulders
• Belt of battle waist
• Ring of fire immunity 240000 GP finger 1
• Ring of acid immunity 240000 GP finger 2
• Ring of freedom of movement 40000 GP finger 3
• Hand of glory (can use 3 rings) 8000 GP throat
• Vest of resistance +5 25000 GP torso
• Tome of leadership and influence +2 55,000 GP misc
• Chain shirt (armor) body
• Aporter armor enhancement (MIC). +20000 GP. Dimension door twice per day, standard action activation. The reason this isn't in the "not recommended" category is that this one doesn't burn a body slot.

Thanks to Ernir for his very useful ‘Necessary Magic Items’ guide.
Inspired by the Emerald Legion

[AmberVael]

You just made a character that is defeatable by magic missile.

Unless I'm just missing the way you became immune to damage, because I don't see it.

Edit: Oh, Troll Blooded? You don't meet prereqs (and unless I am mistaken, you can't with that race/build).

[Keld Denar]

Trollblooded gives Regen1 (vulnerable to Fire and Acid). Everything else is converted to non-lethal, including Magic Missile damage. Bone Knight (which is in your breakdown, but not in your class list), makes him immune to non-lethal damage while keeping his Con score (so Regeneration still works). Thus, he's immune to any damage that isn't Fire or Acid, and the rings give him immunity to Fire and Acid.

He's still vulnerable to Searing Spell, but with those saves thats pretty much a non-issue. The Mailman with a Searing Orb of Fire would probably wreck him, though.

[AmberVael]

Yeah, but you have to take Troll Blooded at 1st level, and to take it, you have to have Toughness- Toughness isn't a bonus feat from anything...

...unless the build uses the Undying Way Monk variant? Though that isn't specified.

[jindra34]

Trollblooded gives Regen1 (vulnerable to Fire and Acid). Everything else is converted to non-lethal, including Magic Missile damage. Bone Knight (which is in your breakdown, but not in your class list), makes him immune to non-lethal damage while keeping his Con score (so Regeneration still works). Thus, he's immune to any damage that isn't Fire or Acid, and the rings give him immunity to Fire and Acid.

He's still vulnerable to Searing Spell, but with those saves thats pretty much a non-issue. The Mailman with a Searing Orb of Fire would probably wreck him, though.
Almost any damage that isn't Acid or Fire. I think there are a few spells out there and at least 1 power (Hostile Empathic Transfer) that simply bypass regeneration. So still risky.

[Zaq]

He does have two flaws. Maybe he took Toughness with one of them? It's not listed, though . . .

[tyckspoon]

Searing Spell wrecks you (and you don't have Evasion, so it can even be a simple Searing Fireball.. which is also one of the few things that outranges your charge.) You also need to be wary of having one of your immunity rings suppressed with a Dispel (Quickened and/or Chained, both easily doable for ECL 20) and then getting blasted through that hole. In short, you desperately need more HP, because your defenses have some pretty low-expense counters for a Wizard. Use something other than Frail for your second flaw (I'd go with Inattentive, assuming your Spot/Listen scores are uselessly low already anyway) and try to fit a +Con item into your gear.

Speaking of gear, how are you determining how much cash you get to play with? Those Rings of Energy Immunity are completely exploding WBL for even ECL 20 (note- if you're good to use custom items like the Favor of the Martyr, see if you can exchange those rings for a 1/day Command Word of Energy Immunity from the Spell Compendium. Should be much cheaper.)

[Tyndmyr]

Celerity.
Time Stop.
Maw of Chaos(repeat as needed).
CDG.

[AmberVael]

It's possible. I missed troll blooded at first glance, and with bone knight not being up in his build, I wasn't sure this actually was an ikea tarrasque. Assuming these minor issues are clarified and fixed (which shouldn't be too hard), it should be relatively immune to damage. However, it still has some noticeable flaws to attack.

Disjunction, of course, will be a nightmare, as well as dispelling. Reliance on very expensive items for immunities is a vulnerability.

Aporter simply isn't enough for teleportation, and I don't immediately spy any planeshifting or long range teleportation abilities. While it will take a few hits, Force Cage could stop him.

Attack and damage on this character is honestly pretty puny. What's more, his attack capabilities can be completely shut down by Ironguard (which isn't something the Pierce feats can do anything about).

[Keld Denar]

The damage from Maw of Chaos would be stopped by Trollblooded + immunity to non-lethal damage, and the build DOES have a +40 will save, which is pretty tough to beat. Granted, 1s happen, but then he's just dazed, which Favor of the Martyr makes him immune to. So that trick doesn't work.

Ironguard can be circumvented by using a wooden weapon (like a club). Or a deep crystal weapon. Or a darkwood weapon. Lots of options there. Easy option for updating the build.

And he doesn't need Plane Shifting. The rules of the arena state that leaving the arena is forfeiting. If his opponent PS's away, he loses. Practical? No. Fits within the constraints of the challenge? Fine.

Aporter gives 2/day Dim Door. That gets him out of 2x Force Cages. Thats PROBABLY enough. If he needs more, he could get a Bolt Shirt and add +Resistance to that (using the MIC rules for adding basic features to existing items) for another dim door/day. Otherwise, he doesn't have a feet slot, and there are boots in the MIC that give like, 5/day short range teleports.

[jindra34]

Also is this pure 3.5 or is Pathfinder stuff allowed? Because one metamagic feat in Pathfinder can enable a wizard to sneer at death immunity.

[gkathellar]

Step 1: Summon/Polymorph into something with fire damage on its attacks.
Step 2: Do some attacks.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Sip martinis.

EDIT: I obviously need to learn to read.

IotSV will wreck this guy — no surprise there.

[JaronK]

He's immune to fire. How is something with fire attacks supposed to do anything? I'd say the OP has done a great job with the immunities for basic protections. But was there anything to prevent Disintegrate killing him outright?

JaronK

[jindra34]

He's immune to fire. How is something with fire attacks supposed to do anything? I'd say the OP has done a great job with the immunities for basic protections. But was there anything to prevent Disintegrate killing him outright?

JaronK

The fact that disintegrate does damage + massive saves + mettle?

[Tyndmyr]

The damage from Maw of Chaos would be stopped by Trollblooded + immunity to non-lethal damage, and the build DOES have a +40 will save, which is pretty tough to beat. Granted, 1s happen, but then he's just dazed, which Favor of the Martyr makes him immune to. So that trick doesn't work.

I didn't see any immunity to non-lethal in that build.

Plus, he needs to get back under WBL.


Aporter gives 2/day Dim Door. That gets him out of 2x Force Cages. Thats PROBABLY enough. If he needs more, he could get a Bolt Shirt and add +Resistance to that (using the MIC rules for adding basic features to existing items) for another dim door/day. Otherwise, he doesn't have a feet slot, and there are boots in the MIC that give like, 5/day short range teleports.

He needs the boosts for boots of haste. I dunno how he's affording all this, but meh.

He does have FoM for generic avoiding things, though.

That said, merely pegging spells at him until he gets a 1 is a viable strategy. He's not that dangerous.

[gkathellar]

AMF is a solid solution. Extraordinary Spell Aim, and with HP that low, you might as well just beat the stuffing out of him. Or AMF him from a distance and flaming oil on his head.

[Keld Denar]

Also, the fact that Disintegrate deals untyped HP damage, which isn't [Fire] or [Acid] and thus would be converted to non-lethal damage to which the character is immune. If he could be reduced to less than 0 HP and THEN hit with a Disintegrate, he would get dusted regardless of the save, but

About the only glaring vulnerability I can see OTHER than Searing Spell is something rediculous like a Taint based casting of Baleful Polymorph with a DC of 75+. Given that Taint is rediculous in the first place, I'd say thats a pretty safe thing to rule out.

EDIT: Yea, he's at 880,250g before weapons are added in. WBL at 20 is 760,000g.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, an optimized apostle of peace could crush him pretty solidly. Or at least, convince him to peacefully walk out of the arena.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He's immune to fire. How is something with fire attacks supposed to do anything? I'd say the OP has done a great job with the immunities for basic protections. But was there anything to prevent Disintegrate killing him outright?

JaronK

Searing Spell respectfully laughs in his face.

Specifically: Searing Spell + Energy Substitution: Fire + Magic Missile


My level 5 wizard just insta-gibbed your poorly-rendered ikea-tarrasque. No save.

Have a nice day.

[JaronK]

The fact that disintegrate does damage + massive saves + mettle?

Is it a pure Wizard he's fighting? Because if he can dip Tainted Sorcerer he should be able to just hammer right through saves. And what about Spellwarping this thing into a touch attack and thus not sweating the saves?

Also, does the Wizard know in advance what he's fighting? If not, I think it's unlikely he'll take Searing Spell. I certainly don't default to HP damage when doing arena fights.

Though I'm confused as to the exact build here... how did he get into Bone Knight without divine casting?

JaronK

[Vulaas]

He would also, depending on how well he optimized his AC (which doesn't look to be too high), have to worry about the possibility of falling prey to a single Trollbane arrow.

[NNescio]

He would also, depending on how well he optimized his AC (which doesn't look to be too high), have to worry about the possibility of falling prey to a single Trollbane arrow.

Immunity to poison.

(We went over this on another thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220467))

I have heard of a Trollbane weapon enhancement, but I can't it anywhere, and it's not in the MIC either.

[Psyren]

Searing Spell wrecks you (and you don't have Evasion, so it can even be a simple Searing Fireball.. which is also one of the few things that outranges your charge.)


Searing Spell respectfully laughs in his face.

Specifically: Searing Spell + Energy Substitution: Fire + Magic Missile


My level 5 wizard just insta-gibbed your poorly-rendered ikea-tarrasque. No save.

Have a nice day.

So are we just ignoring these posts, or...?

[jindra34]

So are we just ignoring these posts, or...?

Anyway to patch the whole that Searing spell creates? Because if not then what is there to address?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Anyway to patch the whole that Searing spell creates? Because if not then what is there to address?

There is, actually, however the problem is that it would require re-working and re-templating rather than relying on magic items for 'immunity' which is pathetically easily bypassed.

In other words, if you're going to Ikea-Tarrasque, then at least ikea-tarrasque instead of half-arse it... and admit that's what you are doing, since it bears as much resemblance to a PC as a dragonfly does to a dragon.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If he had a lot more HP a caster not spec'd for blasting but who still had a searing orb of fire just in case might not kill him in one shot. Otherwise I usually see Searing on mailmen, who are going to wreck this guy unless he changes his build entirely. Then again he might not see mailmen, or he might see ones focused on force damage.

Edit: If he can get evasion and ray deflection up (the former having to come from a custom item unfortunately) then he's only vulnerable to dispel. If he can reduce WBL expenditure elsewhere he can put his most important effects on less common slots, or just wear gloves over his rings.

[Psyren]

If he had a lot more HP a caster not spec'd for blasting but who still had a searing orb of fire just in case might not kill him in one shot. Otherwise I usually see Searing on mailmen, who are going to wreck this guy unless he changes his build entirely. Then again he might not see mailmen, or he might see ones focused on force damage.

Personally, even if I were focused on force damage, there is absolutely no reason for me not to spend two feats on Searing + ES when it could save my rear end from trolls and their kin.

(or Fell Drain)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The build also doesn't have immunity to negative levels... I can think of 1st level builds who can one-round him.

For that matter, most Dread Necromancers who bother with Dread Witch + Aura of Terror would instagib this guy, simply by virtue of dumping negative levels on him while he's stuck Cowering.

[Keld Denar]

The Emerald Legion avoids this hole by switching to Crystal Trolls, who's Regen can only be avoided via [Sonic] damage. There is no "Searing" equivalent for Sonic, and thusly any immunity to [Sonic] is absolute (as well as most Silence effects).

Unfortunately, there is no Crystal Trollblooded feat, which means that the OP can't shore up that weakness in any other way. Its always going to be his achilies heel as long as he relies on Trollblooded.


The build also doesn't have immunity to negative levels... I can think of 1st level builds who can one-round him.

For that matter, most Dread Necromancers who bother with Dread Witch + Aura of Terror would instagib this guy, simply by virtue of dumping negative levels on him while he's stuck Cowering.

Bone Knight...I guess...although he technically doesn't qualify for Bone Knight, and while its mentioned in the level breakdown at the bottom, its not in the build at the top. So...yea.

[Eldariel]

Why do people always go for the "Turtle"-approach of trying to make oneself invulnerable to everything a Wizard can do? That's kind of a losing proposal given the wealth of options at a Wizard's disposal. Try to build a multilayered offense that's as hard for a Wizard to defend against as possible; maybe you'll catch one that underestimates you and dies to you. Then add to that as much defense as you can without hurting your offense to survive as many types of attacks as possible, and go from there. And don't rely on magic items to beat a Wizard; they're all one Chain Dispel Magic away from being suppressed for long enough for him to kill you.

[Arcane_Snowman]

You're one targeted Greater Dispel Magic and Orb of Fire away from death.


ECL 20 Half-fey star elf (LA +2): Hexblade 3, Paladin 2, monk 2, barbarian 1, fighter 10


Levels and abilities:
Star elf: Ghost touch to all wielded weapons
Half-fey: Some spell-like abilities, butterfly wings (fiend folio) x2 fastest mode of movement!
Barbarian 1: Fast movement, rage, illiteracy
Fighter 2: Some feats!
Paladin of tyranny 2: divine grace (all we care about)
Blackguard 2: Dark blessing (all we care about)
Hex blade 3: Hexblade’s curse, arcane resistance, mettle!
Bone knight 8: Improved bonecraft armour, exoskeleton of undeath!
Also, it would be an idea to make clear in the build what your classes are, seeing as you're using two different progressions.

[Mockingbird]

Hey, this is kind of late, but I saw an issue with your build..
Your Warrior build has levels in Paladin and Hexblade. I'm playing a Hexblade, and you can't be of a good alignment, you lose your abilities. Paladin requires you to be a good aligned character. Did you take Antipaladin or Blackguard instead or something?

[Keld Denar]

Indeed. Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm), as mentioned in the OP.

[NimbleNZ]

Updated 2nd warrior vs. wizard build
Thanks for your comments everyone, especially Tyckspoon, Keld denar and Vael

Build is now a Human Monk 2/ fighter 1/ Hexblade 3/ paladin of tyranny 2/ blackguard 4/ Bone knight 8
Build is now known as Sidewaysjack
Build is now human, extra used to buy toughness for troll-blooded
Added feathered wing graft 10000 GP (FF p. 210) to replace wings
New flight speed 180 ft (lost fast movement) 180 x 2 on charge
Now has 90 HP
No longer immune to enchantment
Manoeuvrability now only average (lost a feat and worse wings)
Has 2 levels of monk (evasion)
-3 to all saves (lost 4 charisma, but gained monk levels)
New saves:
Fortitude: 41 (42 against spells)
Reflex: 28/29 (haste) (37 against spells/38 haste)
Will: 29 (37 against spells)
Weapon now made of deep crystal (to overcome ironguard)

Cash: The expensive constant immunity rings change to 1/day Command Word of Energy Immunity (thanks Tyckspoon). However, I don’t know how to do this so if anyone knows could they please post a reply explaining how it works. Hopefully this will bring the build back within budget, it not some other items will have to go too such as the ‘Tome of leadership and influence +2’.

-There’s still no resistance to level drain (any got any ideas?) (Edit: sorry, there IS immunity to level/energy drain as Sidewaysjack is now a legitimate bone knight), searing fireballs can still hurt but must pass evasion.

-Hopefully the wizard will spend a few rounds hitting Sidewaysjack with the wrong kinds of attacks before he/she figures out its immunities. AMF would be a killer; I’m counting on magic-users using it as a last resort (especially since Sidewaysjack is rushing to stand next to them whenever possible).
Maybe use Spellblade weapons to resist dispel and greater dispel (not sure how this works).

Sorry about the inaccuracies in the first post, that's what i get for trying to post builds at 5 AM.

[JaronK]

Doesn't Bone Knight require more divine casting than you have?

JaronK

[NimbleNZ]

Doesn't Bone Knight require more divine casting than you have?

JaronK

its been updated, now has 4 levels of blackguard to meet the requirements of 1st level divine spell casting and ability to turn/rebuke undead :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Updated 2nd warrior vs. wizard build
Thanks for your comments everyone, especially Tyckspoon, Keld denar and Vael

Build is now a Human Monk 2/ fighter 1/ Hexblade 3/ paladin of tyranny 2/ blackguard 4/ Bone knight 8
Build is now known as Sidewaysjack
Build is now human, extra used to buy toughness for troll-blooded
Added feathered wing graft 10000 GP (FF p. 210) to replace wings
New flight speed 180 ft (lost fast movement) 180 x 2 on charge
Now has 90 HP isn't going to help when:

No longer immune to enchantment means you're simply his pet for an arbitrary amount of time.


Has 2 levels of monk (evasion)This matters not at all.

-3 to all saves (lost 4 charisma, but gained monk levels)
New saves:
Fortitude: 41 (42 against spells)
Reflex: 28/29 (haste) (37 against spells/38 haste)
Will: 29 (37 against spells)
Weapon now made of deep crystal (to overcome ironguard)This is slightly more relevant, but really.


Cash: The expensive constant immunity rings change to 1/day Command Word of Energy Immunity (thanks Tyckspoon). However, I don’t know how to do this so if anyone knows could they please post a reply explaining how it works. Hopefully this will bring the build back within budget, it not some other items will have to go too such as the ‘Tome of leadership and influence +2’.

-There’s still no resistance to level drain (any got any ideas?), searing fireballs can still hurt but must pass evasion. You didn't read too well, did you? It's not the fireballs you have to worry about, it's the Fell Drain Searing Spell Orb of Fire spells you have to worry about.


-Hopefully the wizard will spend a few rounds hitting Sidewaysjack with the wrong kinds of attacks before he/she figures out its immunities. AMF would be a killer; I’m counting on magic-users using it as a last resort (especially since Sidewaysjack is rushing to stand next to them whenever possible).
Maybe use Spellblade weapons to resist dispel and greater dispel (not sure how this works)

Doughnut AMF's (archmage + sculpt) will hose you. And no caster is going to use something he isn't positive will land. So be prepared for 'no save, no sr, no you aren't immune to it' attacks. Mailman is a popular one, but by no means the only one.

And, of course... it kind of defeats the purpose of being a fighter when you don't actually take levels in the class...

[Shadow Lord]

Wendigo+Half Golem+[Immunity to Fire] would make this guy acceptable. Also, bone knight. There ya go.

[Tael]

While you will not be this guy's mind-puppet, immunity to mind-effecting is really helpful for all of those no-save mind-effecting spells. Irresistible Dance is a spell that I would definitely prepare, and would lose you the game.

I think you have a pretty good defense, it's def. enough to hold him off for a few rounds unless you get really unlucky. What you really need is a way to kill him.

Also, Shneeky, you may be an optimization king, but lay off. You make good points, but be constructive please.

[NimbleNZ]

This matters not at all.
This is slightly more relevant, but really...

You didn't read too well, did you? It's not the fireballs you have to worry about, it's the Fell Drain Searing Spell Orb of Fire spells you have to worry about.



look dude, I'm very new to D&D and this is only my second ever build, ok?

your advice is helpful, but quit being rude or get off my thread.

I know the build has weaknesses, I'm not trying to plug every single hole. I'm just trying to plug enough holes that actually hurting the build takes a few rounds.

Even surviving a few rounds would be a moral victory for the fighter, which starts with almost hopeless disadvantages.

jeez

NimbleNZ

[NimbleNZ]

While you will not be this guy's mind-puppet, immunity to mind-effecting is really helpful for all of those no-save mind-effecting spells. Irresistible Dance is a spell that I would definitely prepare, and would lose you the game.

I think you have a pretty good defense, it's def. enough to hold him off for a few rounds unless you get really unlucky. What you really need is a way to kill him.

thanks, thats really helpful

if i could afford it i would use:
Cowl of Warding (MoF). 200800GP, head slot. Mind Blank, along with Freedom of Movement and Spell Turning

do you know any items that confer mind blank (constantly or even just for 10 minutes) and nothing else?

cheers :)

[Eldariel]

thanks, thats really helpful

if i could afford it i would use:
Cowl of Warding (MoF). 200800GP, head slot. Mind Blank, along with Freedom of Movement and Spell Turning

do you know any items that confer mind blank (constantly or even just for 10 minutes) and nothing else?

cheers :)

Ring of Mental Protection (120000gp) [DMGII] does it. There's also a cheaper method in Weapons of Legacy; they confer some penalties to you but can give you cheap access to some spell effects and would probably frankly be optimal in this circumstance (right now you're relying on custom magic items which don't really even exist by default; acquiring any requires DM creating them for the game specifically).

[Tael]

I think you're focusing too much on using magic items for your essential defenses. While you're going to need to rely on some magic items, really important stuff is better gained through racial or class abilities. Do you have to be human?

The important thing now is your offensive ability. You need to find a way to actually win the match, or it's all going to be pointless.

Also, rings of counterspelling for dispel magic.

Also: There are a number of little known Vile feats from Exemplars of Evil that could really help you out. One in particular let's you change the target of a mind-effecting spell targeted at you to anyone else in range, with a -4 penalty to their save. Can't remember the name right now, I'll see if I can find it.

[NimbleNZ]

I think you're focusing too much on using magic items for your essential defenses. While you're going to need to rely on some magic items, really important stuff is better gained through racial or class abilities. Do you have to be human?

The important thing now is your offensive ability. You need to find a way to actually win the match, or it's all going to be pointless.

Also, rings of counterspelling for dispel magic.

Also: There are a number of little known Vile feats from Exemplars of Evil that could really help you out. One in particular let's you change the target of a mind-effecting spell targeted at you to anyone else in range, with a -4 penalty to their save. Can't remember the name right now, I'll see if I can find it.

the vile feat sounds great :smallbiggrin:, can you also turn mind-affecting spells back onto their caster?

ill use the rings of dispel if i can get immunity to fire/acid from some other (hopefully not an item) source.

so far i havent seen any better ways of gaining racial/class immunity to stuff without actually copying the emerald legionm, ill do some more research though.

assuming FoM is up and grappling is out, how else can i warrior-type deal damage other than hitting things with a Big Stick?

thanks again for the help!

[Tael]

Boy, have we got a deal for you! Become devote yourself to an Elder Evil today, and not only will you receive access to the exclusive Insane Defiance feat, but we'll throw in not one, not two, but FIVE free feats over the course of your career! All for the low-low price of Nothing! That's right folks, you have to do absolutely nothing in order to use this fantastic offer! Pledge yourself to Pandorym today and you too could be a Chosen of Evil!*

*Terms and restrictions apply. Use of Insane Defiance may lead to loss of wisdom, possibly comatose state.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

the vile feat sounds great :smallbiggrin:, can you also turn mind-affecting spells back onto their caster?

ill use the rings of dispel if i can get immunity to fire/acid from some other (hopefully not an item) source. War Troll or Crystal troll nets you Regeneration/acid or regeneration/sonic. Unless you get rid of your fire weakness in your regeneration, you can have all the immunities you want, and Scorching will simply bypass them.


so far i havent seen any better ways of gaining racial/class immunity to stuff without actually copying the emerald legionm, ill do some more research though.That's because there really isn't.


assuming FoM is up and grappling is out, how else can i warrior-type deal damage other than hitting things with a Big Stick?Well, if you can actually get close to them, with an AMF active, then it wouldn't matter if they had FoM up or not, the effect would be suppressed.

The problem is, of course, getting that close and initiating a grapple with a full caster without either Tinfoil Hat escape or contingencies going off.

Your best bet is an AMF pouncebarian who has some (Ex) method of flight. Most of the methods of being immune to physical damage involve spells. If they forget their tinfoil hat or forgot to have a contingency that goes off when an AMF gets closer than 10', or forgot to have a contingency that goes off when an opponent gets within 30', then you've got your one shot. Make it a good one.

[Hirax]

You appear to have no defense against being buried. All someone needs to do is cast blizzard on you (optionally casting forcecage+dimensional anchor, or any other method to hold you still), then cast frostfell on the pile of snow they've put on you and you're frozen in ice. No save, no SR, no attack roll. At which point you're at their mercy to either be kept as a trophy. Using the control ice and snow spell they could even animate you against your will, you'd be their dancing ice cube puppet! :smallbiggrin:

Also, I don't think you have any defense against mage's disjunction, which would ruin you.

[NimbleNZ]

Boy, have we got a deal for you! Become devote yourself to an Elder Evil today, and not only will you receive access to the exclusive Insane Defiance feat, but we'll throw in not one, not two, but FIVE free feats over the course of your career! All for the low-low price of Nothing! That's right folks, you have to do absolutely nothing in order to use this fantastic offer! Pledge yourself to Pandorym today and you too could be a Chosen of Evil!*

*Terms and restrictions apply. Use of Insane Defiance may lead to loss of wisdom, possibly comatose state.

5 free feats and i get to eat babies? AWESOME! hand me that quill and sign me up :smallbiggrin:

i take it that this comes the exemplars of evil; do you know the page number?

really great advice!

[Tael]

Your best bet is an AMF pouncebarian who has some (Ex) method of flight. Most of the methods of being immune to physical damage involve spells. If they forget their tinfoil hat or forgot to have a contingency that goes off when an AMF gets closer than 10', or forgot to have a contingency that goes off when an opponent gets within 30', then you've got your one shot. Make it a good one.

+1. Unless your opponent is a really experienced optimizer, AMFs destroy casters. The downside being that all your magic stuff is gone too. But don't worry! Spend all your money on things that work inside AMF's and you'll be good. Of course, any mage with common sense will see this coming, and devise something to counter it with. So it's kind of risky.

Another option is to go with arrows that never miss, with combinations of Seeking, Force Raptor Arrows and a number of feats and skills to make sure you always know where he is.

Question to people with better memories than I: Do AMFs block Line of Effect? If I cast a shaped AMF leaving myself out can I still be targeted with spells?

EDIT: @EoE page numbers: it's all in chapter 2. Feats are in the feat section, there's a part earlier about devoting yourself.

[Hirax]

Question to people with better memories than I: Do AMFs block Line of Effect? If I cast a shaped AMF leaving myself out can I still be targeted with spells?

Rules Compendium states explicitly that AMFs do not block line of effect.

[Quietus]

the vile feat sounds great :smallbiggrin:, can you also turn mind-affecting spells back onto their caster?

ill use the rings of dispel if i can get immunity to fire/acid from some other (hopefully not an item) source.

so far i havent seen any better ways of gaining racial/class immunity to stuff without actually copying the emerald legionm, ill do some more research though.

assuming FoM is up and grappling is out, how else can i warrior-type deal damage other than hitting things with a Big Stick?

thanks again for the help!

In Savage Species they have the option to pay money for a ritual to gain subtypes. Doing it multiple times doesn't remove existing subtypes. You could perform the ritual twice, gain [Fire] and [Cold], and be immune to both. Having the Cold subtype is also one of the few ways to protect yourself from Shivering Touch, or whatever the 3d6 dex damage spell is, if you don't have stat damage immunity already.

[NimbleNZ]

War Troll or Crystal troll nets you Regeneration/acid or regeneration/sonic. Unless you get rid of your fire weakness in your regeneration, you can have all the immunities you want, and Scorching will simply bypass them.

good to know, i won't waste hours of fruitless trawling through books then!



Well, if you can actually get close to them, with an AMF active, then it wouldn't matter if they had FoM up or not, the effect would be suppressed.

The problem is, of course, getting that close and initiating a grapple with a full caster without either Tinfoil Hat escape or contingencies going off.

in this arena match wizards are allowed 1 contingency, so after the first one goes off i should be good to go for the second attempt (assuming im not dead aready)

once the tin hat trick has been deployed can it easily be reset? does the cone fall off and get left behind?

what if a familiar/ally (but not summoned creature) put an AMF behind the wizard while sidewaysjack put one in front of him; would line of effect then be broken?

this was useful, thanks :smallwink:

[Tael]

Rules Compendium states explicitly that AMFs do not block line of effect.

Huh. So Initiate of Mystra really is the only way to cast safely in an AMF without using Invoke Magic or something similar.

EDIT: A wizard could just have like 9 shrunken hats, but it's probably unlikely. I'm willing to bet your opponent hasn't put as much thought into this as you have.

Also, the Tinfoil hat is a cone, so unless the familiar is literally right in the wizard's face, it's still going to work.

[NimbleNZ]

You appear to have no defense against being buried. All someone needs to do is cast blizzard on you (optionally casting forcecage+dimensional anchor, or any other method to hold you still), then cast frostfell on the pile of snow they've put on you and you're frozen in ice. No save, no SR, no attack roll. At which point you're at their mercy to either be kept as a trophy. Using the control ice and snow spell they could even animate you against your will, you'd be their dancing ice cube puppet! :smallbiggrin:

Also, I don't think you have any defense against mage's disjunction, which would ruin you.

doesnt mage's disjunction use the wearer/wielder's saves if they are higher than that of the item? if no, then yikes!

and...yikes! no save on dimensional anchor...how do you defend against this? dispel magic on myself?

[Hirax]

Huh. So Initiate of Mystra really is the only way to cast safely in an AMF without using Invoke Magic or something similar.

EDIT: A wizard could just have like 9 shrunken hats, but it's probably unlikely. I'm willing to bet your opponent hasn't put as much thought into this as you have.

The project image spell isn't a bad option, you can use your image as the point of origin for spells, and you only need to maintain line of effect with your double.

[HunterOfJello]

The Blackguard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm) requires Cleave and Improved Sunder as feat prerequisites. I don't see those on your list.

[NimbleNZ]

In Savage Species they have the option to pay money for a ritual to gain subtypes. Doing it multiple times doesn't remove existing subtypes. You could perform the ritual twice, gain [Fire] and [Cold], and be immune to both. Having the Cold subtype is also one of the few ways to protect yourself from Shivering Touch, or whatever the 3d6 dex damage spell is, if you don't have stat damage immunity already.

awesome thats good to know, ill take a look

i've avoided savage species so far because i've heard its really unbalanced and broken. however, any port in a storm, what?

is this ritual very expensive? it surely must be...

thanks again quietus :)

[Hirax]

doesnt mage's disjunction use the wearer/wielder's saves if they are higher than that of the item? if no, then yikes!

and...yikes! no save on dimensional anchor...how do you defend against this? dispel magic on myself?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#damagingMagicItems

High touch AC is the best defense against dimensional anchor. But really, dimensional anchor+forcecage is only half the problem. If they can find another way to keep you on the ground for 5 rounds, you're going to be buried in snow, then flash frozen with the frostfell spell.

edit: frostfell and blizzard are both spells from Frostburn for your reference.

[NimbleNZ]

The Blackguard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm) requires Cleave and Improved Sunder as feat prerequisites. I don't see those on your list.

...oh crap

thanks for the heads up, now this build needs some SERIOUS re-working...

[NimbleNZ]

EDIT: A wizard could just have like 9 shrunken hats, but it's probably unlikely. I'm willing to bet your opponent hasn't put as much thought into this as you have.

Also, the Tinfoil hat is a cone, so unless the familiar is literally right in the wizard's face, it's still going to work.

maybe a flying familiar with a ring three wishes (with 1 wish in it, assuming familiars can use them , i dont know)? flies up, fires off AMF, warrior runs up, fires off AMF, grapples...

would that work?

EDIT: also, what was the page number in exemplars of evil for the vile feats you mentioned before?

[Tael]

Your opponent is a Wizard! Merely by existing he is far cheesier than you are!

You may want to consider Hulking Hurler if you don't want to be an archer, it's always good to know that if you hit, he's dead if he's not immune.

Also: If you want some test games before the match, I'm sure some of big shots would volunteer an optimized wizard, or I could whip up an Incantatrix to TEST YOUR MIGHT.

[NimbleNZ]

Your opponent is a Wizard! Merely by existing he is far cheesier than you are!

haha that's going in my sig...:smalltongue:



You may want to consider Hulking Hurler if you don't want to be an archer, it's always good to know that if you hit, he's dead if he's not immune.

i'll thnik about this, sounds like it could work but so much cheese its practically fondu!



Also: If you want some test games before the match, I'm sure some of big shots would volunteer an optimized wizard, or I could whip up an Incantatrix to TEST YOUR MIGHT.

sure, that would be fun! (as well as informative). i added you to my buddy list, so if you want to battle sometime i'm keen :)

[Hirax]

EDIT: also, what was the page number in exemplars of evil for the vile feats you mentioned before?

I believe it's in Elder Evils, and not Exemplars of Evil. An easy mix up to make. i don't have Elder Evils so I can't be sure, though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

i'll thnik about this, sounds like it could work but so much cheese its practically fondu!Only if you took two levels of Cancer Mage + Festering Rage...

The problem with Hulking Hurler is that he can make himself immune to damage at range. About the only way to solidly guarantee he won't be immune to physical damage is going to be either MdJ or AMF.

Here's the thing about the Tinfoil Hat... it only NEEDS to work once.

Your goal here is to kill him before he has a chance to kill you. The tinfoil hat works much like those runes that Xykon dropped around that zaps teleporters... it's not designed to be a solid defense, it's designed to delay opponents the precious surprise round so that you can deploy YOUR combo. Which is probably going to one-hit KO you, no matter what you do.

Honestly? Here's what I'd do...

All the resist-boosting? Fuggetaboutit. Warblade + all three resist maneuvers. Then all you need to do is jack up a Concentration check. If Item Familiar is out of the question, then simply use a Ring of +30 Concentration. Done.

All the immunities? Fuggetaboutit. I rather doubt a wizard will be employing most of those tactics anyways. You're dancing through hoops and worrying about the wrong problem.

Here's what you need:

1) Freedom of Movement. Comes in a handy-dandy ring
2) Contingency Teleport upon MdJ being cast in your direction
3) Ring of Counterspells for Greater Dispel Magic
4) Necklace of Adaptation. Immunity to Cloudkill
5) If you really want, both Mettle and Evasion. Since you've used up both ring slots, evasion comes at the low cost of Rogue2, and Mettle shows up with Witch Slayer2 from ToM. With all the templating you're not needing to bother with anymore, you've got plenty of room. This, plus the maneuvers to use a Concentration check in place of a save will pretty much nix any immediate Save or Lose effects.
6) extremely high Touch AC. I don't care how you do it, jack up your Touch AC over 40, 60 would be better so even True Strike will have problems. Most of the 'no save, just lose' spells require a ranged touch attack. Raise this, and destroying you becomes MUCH more annoying.
7) You need some method of flight that cannot be dispelled. Try a Fiendish Graft: Feathered Wings for 10k. This gives you some much-needed maneuverability. If you can get teleporation, that's better.

So, in brief, you're cutting him off at the source, rather than patching up holes.

To affect you, generally he's either gonna need to pop a save, or pop your touch AC. This isn't 100% foolproof, but it solves about 99% of your problems without trying to imitate an ikea tarrasque.

Okay, next we need to work on the important part: killing him.

First, you need targeting. You need Mindsight. Badly. This at least tells you which square he's in for targeting purposes.

Second, you need to get through his defenses.

a) Make sure you have a Belt of Battle to power through his Tinfoil Hat and still have enough attacks to take him down anyways. For this, I suggest a Spiked Chain, simply for the reach factor.

b) Find a way to get through many of his buffs. This may include: PMC, Momentary Disjunction, Suel's Dispelling Blade, some kind of activated item... I don't care how you do it, but you need to strip him of buffs somehow.

c) Be able to close with him. Flight helps. So does some sort of teleportation. A Shadowpounce build would not be out of the question. Totemist2 for Blink Shirt makes the teleportation easy. Shadowcasting gets an interesting one with Flicker, and there are ways to get access to it relatively painlessly.

d) Be able to hurt him. Generally, bringing down physical damage, specially after you just debuffed him, will work. Assuming you can close and inflict it.

I think you're being inefficient with how you are planning your immunities. choking it off at the source is much easier to do.

[Little Brother]

Also, I'm 90-90% sure intelligent items work in AMFs. Feel free to (ab)use that.

[candycorn]

Resist maneuvers won't work at ECL 20, due to quicken spell, and rods of quicken.

Alternately, Maximized, Empowered, Quickened Chain Lightning (Energy sub'd to Sonic) will obliterate pretty much any gear anyone holds.

AMF on a familiar, followed by orb spells, for another interesting method.

The issue is, when building a defensive character, is you have to cover as many kill techniques as you can, hoping you get the right one. You build vs. Schroedinger's Wizard, and cover as much as you can.

Until you shield your items, you're in trouble.

[Eldariel]

Resist maneuvers won't work at ECL 20, due to quicken spell, and rods of quicken.

Stance of Alacrity; they work just fine. Really, I'd just go:
- Build that can deal lethal, as-many-defenses-penetrating damage at range.
- Build that can deal lethal damage as a full-round action.
- Build that can screw with action economy as much as possible.
- Build that has some source of AMF (guess item most of the time)
- Maxed Hide + Hide in Plain Sight + Darkstalker preferably.

Things like damage immunities begin to be really, really difficult for warriors to overcome without some access to dispelling. AMF is the only real way; though most of 'em don't last that long so if you just are dealing with a plain Wizard rather than a Persist Machine, you might have chances if you can wait them out.

You won't be able to expect a favorable outcome but at best you can beat careless Wizards with an unexpected bag of tricks.

[NimbleNZ]

I believe it's in Elder Evils, and not Exemplars of Evil. An easy mix up to make. i don't have Elder Evils so I can't be sure, though.

looking through the other EE was so frustrating :smallmad:

but now everything is bunnies and rainbow cakes :smallwink:

seriously, thanks

[NimbleNZ]

This whole post, which is too long to quote in its entirety...


Only if you took two levels of Cancer Mage + Festering Rage...

The problem with Hulking Hurler is that he can make himself immune to damage at range. About the only way to solidly guarantee he won't be immune to physical damage is going to be either MdJ or AMF.

Here's the thing about the Tinfoil Hat... it only NEEDS to work once.

Your goal here is to kill him before he has a chance to kill you. The tinfoil hat works much like those runes that Xykon dropped around that zaps teleporters... it's not designed to be a solid defense, it's designed to delay opponents the precious surprise round so that you can deploy YOUR combo. Which is probably going to one-hit KO you, no matter what you do.

Honestly? Here's what I'd do...

All the resist-boosting? Fuggetaboutit. Warblade + all three resist maneuvers. Then all you need to do is jack up a Concentration check. If Item Familiar is out of the question, then simply use a Ring of +30 Concentration. Done.


...contained so much epicly useful information that i was forced to save it in a word doc.
I have FAILED you master but i shall NOT DO SO AGAIN...
I PROMISE THE THIRD BUILD WILL BE BETTERER!
:smallbiggrin:
seriously, thanks a bunch thats amazing

[Tyndmyr]

You didn't read too well, did you? It's not the fireballs you have to worry about, it's the Fell Drain Searing Spell Orb of Fire spells you have to worry about.

This is...not only rude, but wrong. Fell Drain only goes off on damage. If you evade all the damage, you also avoid the fell drain.

Given the quantity of hp on this build, fell drain is pretty irrelevant. Anything that inflicts damage is going to drop him, so negative levels tacked on is kind of unimportant.

Edit: Also, don't give up on these builds...they're quite interesting, and I love the thought exercise.

[NimbleNZ]

This is...not only rude, but wrong. Fell Drain only goes off on damage. If you evade all the damage, you also avoid the fell drain.

Given the quantity of hp on this build, fell drain is pretty irrelevant. Anything that inflicts damage is going to drop him, so negative levels tacked on is kind of unimportant.

Edit: Also, don't give up on these builds...they're quite interesting, and I love the thought exercise.

He was rude at first, but he was very helpful after so no worries.

i have no intention of giving up! you are quite right, it is a great mental exercise and it teaches you so much about the game :smallamused:

I've only played d&d for about 2 months. before i started making these builds i didnt even know how SR worked, didnt know what mettle was, didnt know why FoM was important...

and i'm supposed to be the friggin DM! (im not even joking)

[Finkmilkana]

If they can find another way to keep you on the ground for 5 rounds, you're going to be buried in snow, then flash frozen with the frostfell spell.

edit: frostfell and blizzard are both spells from Frostburn for your reference.

Isn't blizzard only a druid (and winter domain) spell and thus nothing a wizard normally has on his list?

[Evard]

Look at the Mage Slayer line of feats :)

[NimbleNZ]

Look at the Mage Slayer line of feats :)

that, at least, we have covered :smallwink:

[Tyndmyr]

Isn't blizzard only a druid (and winter domain) spell and thus nothing a wizard normally has on his list?

Hmm, not available via domain wizard...so yeah, going to require notable shenanigans to have on his list. Probably not a likely concern.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, since you aren't trying to Ikea Tarrasque, may I make a suggestion concerning race?

Necropolitian. Spellstitched necropolitian if you can. You don't need Regen, you need immunities. And some cool SLA's would be nice as well.

The big things it makes you immune to:

Negative levels. This is to stop UPS-type 'spam No Save No SR negative levels until they fall down' shenanigans.

Poisons. Removes the need for the Necklace of Adaptation since you're now immune to Cloudkill anyways

Mind-affecting. This removes two different colleges from your concern. It also prevents you from being your opponent's pet

Paralysis and Stunning. Typical lockdown effects

Ability Drain, Energy Drain, damage to physical stats. These are typical ways to shut down tanks quickly. You're now immune to Empowered Maximized Ocular Shivering Touch.

Anything that requires a Fort save that doesn't target objects. So, other than Disintegrate, if it's a Fort save or x, you ignore it

That's... a LOT of immunities there.

Now then, I've been thinking about how to get your Touch AC up. Look up the X to Y thread, and look up 'to AC'. I know there's a Paladin variant that gets Cha to AC instead of to Saves. If you're a Ghost, you're Incorporeal and also get Cha as Deflection to AC. That also gives anything he's shooting at you, unless it's a Force effect, a 50% miss chance. You simply get a Ghost Touch weapon to negate this problem. From there... sky's the limit, ears.

Incorporeal also synergizes very well with Shadowpouncing. Easiest way to pull that off is Totemist2 for Blink Shirt.

[Tael]

ToB is a great addition for whatever archetype you want to play. White Raven gets you extra turns, Iron Heart has beastly defenses, and SS has some great sneaky/approach maneuvers (I find Leaping Flame to be highly underrated). It may be worth it to dip into cleric and trade away your domains just so that you can become a Ruby Knight Vindicator. Swift actions are amazingly useful, and RKV is one of the only ways to get more.

I think what you really need to do now is choose what kind of offense you want to have, as it the part that most defines what classes you will choose.

[HunterOfJello]

Air subtype of monsters from Unearthed Arcana don't breathe and are therefore automatically immune to inhaled poisons. I was going to use that slight cheese in a previous game.

[Hirax]

Isn't blizzard only a druid (and winter domain) spell and thus nothing a wizard normally has on his list?

The feat arcane disciple allows you to add all the spells in a domain to your class spell list. Note that it doesn't mean you automatically know them as a sorcerer or other spontaneous caster, it just means that they're now on your class list, and you can choose to learn them. Further, we're talking about level 20ish? Scrolls of blizzard are always on my purchase list at high levels, it's a great spell.

Frankly this isn't a relevant concern anyway, there are lots of transmutation and conjuration spells that can be used to pile non-magical dirt, sand, snow, or whatever, with no save, no SR, and no attack roll. So choose your burial method of choice, then use frostfell for freezing - dirt and other earth materials become everfrost instead of ice. I just like blizzard because it's fire and forget due to the enormous amount of snow it creates.

Plus disjunction and greater dispel still ruin the warrior, and there really isn't a defense against disjunction other than contingent spells, and the artifact lord epic destiny.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the entire reason I like burial via conjuration and flashfreezing so much. Invisible spell! You're encasing your victim in an invisible material, so once they are frozen and have suffocated, all you need to do is cut out the cube they're in (move earth/control ice spells make this easy), and you've already got them set up in what is basically a glass case for display!

[Endarire]

Raptoran (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1) and Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) are wonderful ways to get (Ex) flight. (The Guide to Free D&D (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.0) is handy for other things too.)

This is the conditions list for 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm). Are you immune to all of the bad ones? If not, expect your opponent to breach that hole.

[Little Brother]

Raptoran (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1) and Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) are wonderful ways to get (Ex) flight. (The Guide to Free D&D (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.0) is handy for other things too.)

This is the conditions list for 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm). Are you immune to all of the bad ones? If not, expect your opponent to breach that hole.Or you can buy it from the Fiend Folio for 10,000 GP.

[Doc Roc]

Trollblooded gives Regen1 (vulnerable to Fire and Acid). Everything else is converted to non-lethal, including Magic Missile damage. Bone Knight (which is in your breakdown, but not in your class list), makes him immune to non-lethal damage while keeping his Con score (so Regeneration still works). Thus, he's immune to any damage that isn't Fire or Acid, and the rings give him immunity to Fire and Acid.

He's still vulnerable to Searing Spell, but with those saves thats pretty much a non-issue. The Mailman with a Searing Orb of Fire would probably wreck him, though.

1) There are blasters who don't take searing spell?
2) There are wizards who don't have limited wish so they can wish for psychic reformation and get the feats they need?

Also. Hi.


Or you can buy it from the Fiend Folio for 10,000 GP.

Man, finding that item is something I do not regret.

[Vowtz]

Nice Thread NimbleNZ!

The Idea of beating a well prepared wizard with a fighter is very old, but until today, really challenging.

Wizard spells are the strongest tolls in D&D, but people tend to exaggerate their power.

With strict reading of the "foresight" spell, for example, the wizard gain +2 on AC and reflex saves and... nothing much more. Unless I really missed something big, it does not says that the warning comes any number of rounds before the dangerous event. the spell even says "instantaneous warnings".

Now for the duel:

The real problem I see is that your character is immune to a lot of things, but he sucks at fighting, meaning that any wizard could just summon a dragon, elemental, a bear, a dog or anyone to steal your toys with a "grapple pin" and then kick your ass with a standard schorching ray, fireball or other standard wizard spell.

He could order the summon to sunder your stuff too, THEN grapple you, THEN bury you with rocks, earth, **** or whatever if you do not receive damage from his attacks.

He could also choke you, or drown you, or throw you out of the arena, or poke your eyes, or...

[Tael]

With strict reading of the "foresight" spell, for example, the wizard gain +2 on AC and reflex saves and... nothing much more. Unless I really missed something big, it does not says that the warning comes any number of rounds before the dangerous event. the spell even says "instantaneous warnings".


Err, the important part is that "You are never surprised or flat-footed."

Basically, even if he can't divine that you are going to ambush him, the wizard still won't be caught unawares.

[Doc Roc]

Err, the important part is that "You are never surprised or flat-footed."

Basically, even if he can't divine that you are going to ambush him, the wizard still won't be caught unawares.

And Insidious Magic + Greater Invis says that your True Sight won't be helping today. 85% of all wizards are invisible peace-loving tea-drinkers. We step daily through a sea of the arcane.

[Hirax]

Or superior invisibility if you're feeling particularly mean.

edit: and to anyone making schrodinger's wizard allegations, remember that this is a straight wizard 20, and therefore will have plenty of feats for things like insidious magic or even arcane disciple.

[Doc Roc]

Or superior invisibility if you're feeling particularly mean.

I am not well-known for my chivalric attitudes towards my foes.

[Vowtz]

And Insidious Magic + Greater Invis says that your True Sight won't be helping today.
There are countermeasures for that too, am I wrong?

[Hirax]

There are countermeasures for that too, am I wrong?

A non-caster needs to make a level check of DC 11+your CL to successfully use divination against you.

[Doc Roc]

A non-caster needs to make a level check of DC 11+your CL to successfully use divination against you.

So, no, there aren't really. Not for you... muggles. My CL will be ~30. We actually saw this happen in the Test of Spite. It was terrifying. I think there's a psionic approach that'll resolve it, but you basically have to be a caster to use it. (MetaFaculty abuse solves almost everything)

[Vowtz]

A non-caster needs to make a level check of DC 11+your CL to successfully use divination against you.
A non-caster will not make a level check, the item will make the check for him.


So, no, there aren't really. Not for you... muggles. My CL will be ~30. We actually saw this happen in the Test of Spite. It was terrifying. I think there's a psionic approach that'll resolve it, but you basically have to be a caster to use it. (MetaFaculty abuse solves almost everything)
I really don't know what is a "muggles", but...

Your feat states: "All creatures employing spells or spell-like abilities are considered Weave users unless they possess the Shadow Weave Magic feat. "
So I just need to have a guy who has this "Shadow Weave Magic feat" help crafting the item.

For obscure problems, get obscure solutions.

I'm not saying the warrior will win over the mage, my bet is also on the wizard, but I am analyzing from a neutral point of view.

From both sides there are flaws, for example, until now, no "wizard" on this thread mentioned anything that would protect himself from a simple, nonmagical, hide check.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Or superior invisibility if you're feeling particularly mean.

edit: and to anyone making schrodinger's wizard allegations, remember that this is a straight wizard 20, and therefore will have plenty of feats for things like insidious magic or even arcane disciple.

I think Mindsight will still lock you up... tremorsense might as well.

Glitterdust won't dismiss the invisibility... but still is effective in being able to keep tabs on where they are, if you can target the right square.

[Hirax]

Well, it depends on which part of superior invisibility's text you want to take more seriously. One sentence says it foils all senses except touch, but another sentence lists specific things it foils. I think tremorsense is on there, but mindsight definitely isn't. Mindsight is pretty much infallible by RAW, presumably due to its relative obscurity (not even being listed in the regular feats section of LoM), and probably also due to it being out of splatbook writer's minds (and also coming late to the game).

Also, hide is incredibly easy to defeat, which is why nobody bothered mentioning it in the first place. It was assumed the warrior was attacking, which would be perilous, but assuming it was the wizard hunting the warrior, shapechanging into anything with lifesense, deathsense, blindsight, or anything else that has great senses would make hiding virtually impossible.

[Vowtz]

I am pretty sure that all those invincible spellcasters would have a lot of unexpected and exploitable flaws if their builds are as exposed as was that of the first post.

[Doc Roc]

As mentioned, Mindsight is the fallback for coping with hide. One very serious problem for the fighter is the wizard using astral projection.

[NimbleNZ]

i haven't been able to post much lately as I'm in exam time ATM, but reading the comments has been really interesting and funny...

this in particular was very reassuring :smallwink:


He could also choke you, or drown you, or throw you out of the arena, or poke your eyes, or...


Insidious magic sounds particularly nasty! i will have to look in to it...

schneeky, there's a couple more attempts on the way, one of which is based on your very helpful posts on this thread :smallbiggrin:

to the community at large, thanks again for the help (and the lols)!

[Hirax]

I am pretty sure that all those invincible spellcasters would have a lot of unexpected and exploitable flaws if their builds are as exposed as was that of the first post.

Say hello to Mr. Freeze! No, I won't make you cringe with any quotes from the movie. :smallbiggrin:

Mindsight+moment of prescience+foresight.

How does the warrior get the jump on a wizard? It doesn't. The wizard automatically knows if you're within 100' due to mindsight, and moment of prescience means they win initiative unless you put a Pyrrhic amount of resources into it.

When the wizard decides it's time for the warrior to die, all the wizard needs to do is cast sudden maximized time stop. If the warrior is flying, he'll cast column of ice to create a platform beneath the warrior, with sudden widen to be sure there's ample space. Now we've got a 40' diameter platform. Next up are snowsight, fly, blizzard (obtained via arcane disciple, the winter domain has other cool spells), forcecage, and pulling a out weirdstone from a handy haversack. The weirdstone prevents anyone from using any form of extradimensional travel, including etherealness once activated. This is a more surefire way to prevent escape than casting dimensional anchor.

Time stop ends, and the warrior is suddenly in whiteout conditions due to the blizzard spell. Spot, search, and listen checks automatically fail, so the warrior can't see or hear anything, and won't even realize they're in a forcecage at first. The wizard of course didn't cast forcecage so it started with the warrior in a corner, the warrior needs to wander 10' in one direction to encounter the bars, and then figure out what they've bumped into by succeeding on some sort of check.

Meanwhile the wizard (who can see because of snowsight, and isn't getting buried because of fly) is just floating there, ready to stop the warrior should they attempt to do anything of consequence, which is probably going to be a simple matter of one more forcecage, or perhaps greater dispel magic. Snowdrift can be used to move snow around if you want to make sure you've got at least 10'-15' of snow/ice facing the now buried warrior in every direction. Once they're buried to the wizard's satisfaction, frostfell is cast, with sudden extend for good measure to get 2 hours/CL out of the spell.

The warrior is now trapped in ice. Being a fire dwarf or something similar won't matter; unless the wizard somehow how forgets to cast frostfell again within the next couple days the ice isn't going to melt or give way. Move ice and snow allows you to retrieve your prize (once forcecage expires), and even move the victim around to put it in a particular pose if you'd like.

Zone of glacial cold+piercing cold feat ensures that even if the creature inside is immune to cold it will die eventually (piercing cold is searing spell for cold spells). Unlike how searing spell interacts with creatures of the fire subtype, however, creatures with the cold subtype aren't affected by piercing cold spells, so if the victim has the cold subtype from an undispellable source and doesn't need to breath, they can remain alive indefinitely I suppose. But being trapped in this fashion still counts as defeat, given that they could unthaw you after studying and preparing the perfect countermeasures. Which would probably be as simple as shoving you into lava and forcecaging you, with an AMF in case that's somehow still an issue.

The break DC for a strength check to escape is homebrew territory, and probably impossibly high. The break DC for 1' reinforced masonry is 45, and that assumes that you have maneuverability, the ability to get leverage, etc. while trying to break through. I'd say being encased in ice over 10' all around you, that is magically being kept at the unearthly cold temperature band, and with no maneuverability, qualifies as more difficult than 1' of reinforced masonry. No realistic amount of template and rage stacking is going to get you the strength to escape; it would again be a Pyrrhic use of character resources.

Resources and optimization are hardly being pushed hard at all so far. Plenty of spare feats and WBL. Is there a way any non-caster gets out of this? Building a 'mousetrap' to catch any non-caster PC is an interesting idea. So far the only thing I can see working is something that can attack from outside mindsight's range, and that could 1 shot the wizard. But what could do this without the wizard reacting via foresight and a contingent teleport (remember the weirdstone is still in the HH, and it needs to be activated)?


i haven't been able to post much lately as I'm in exam time ATM

Good luck on your exams! I'm glad you made this thread. I thought the thousand level monk thread was a fun thought exercise, and I'm glad this has given me a chance to delve further.

[Acanous]

Shadowdancer can get out of it with Shadow Step, I believe.

[Meta]

Eternal Blade could be of some use no? Full BAB, action economy manipulation, more damage, and more options in general. Not sure exactly how useful Island in Time and Time Stands Still would be, but I suspect they have some application.

[gkathellar]

Oh, there are plenty of things that would be useful. The problem is that a smart wizard can deal with any of them, and that even if he couldn't, by 17th level he can eradicate any credible melee threat with one casting of Disjunction.

[Eldariel]

Eternal Blade could be of some use no? Full BAB, action economy manipulation, more damage, and more options in general. Not sure exactly how useful Island in Time and Time Stands Still would be, but I suspect they have some application.

They're...alright but not enough alone. That said, it's the best I've been able to do thus far since it's the best non-magical means of gaining any way to act outside turn order.

[Meta]

Perhaps a better way to look at this is that if there is one level 20 wizard in the world, the possibility of at least two is high. A smart wizard would prepare for the most dangerous threats first and then worry about uppity fighters. I think people have listed more troublesome spells then any wizard would take without first considering his own anti-magic precautions and offense. Sure, many of those spells have uses in a variety of arenas, but I do think it's worth noting that few believable wizard characters awake for the day with the first thought of "How am I going to ruin that shock trooper's life today?"

[Tyndmyr]

I am pretty sure that all those invincible spellcasters would have a lot of unexpected and exploitable flaws if their builds are as exposed as was that of the first post.

Almost certainly.

My go-to build would be Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Incantatrix 8/Iot7v 7. Necropolitan(human) as the race. Mindsight's good, but strictly speaking, I don't actually need it. I could list the defensive buffs I'd have running at any given time, but honestly, it'll be lengthy, and just overcoming the veils is a non-trivial problem for most melee.

Of course, I'd also run a ring of counterspelling to handle greater dispel, and be a member in the church o' magic for a freebie counterspell to shut down anything else problematic.

[Doc Roc]

My build's a little more esoteric.
Favored Soul 4 + Dragonsblood Pool Trick to get Arcane Casting + Initiate of Mystra/Mystic Theurge 2/Beholder Mage 1/Mystic Theurge 8

OR

Loredrake Dragonsblood Kobold Sorcerer 4/Ardent 3/Cerebremancer 9/Spell Dancer 2/Mindbender 1/Cerebremancer 1
With Practiced Manifester for Dual 9s, Spell Dancer for unlimited persist, and mindsight. I'll be using the Save Game trick at all times.

[ILM]

Stuff
Seriously? So all a wizard needs to have to beat this guy is:
- Grab Mindsight, which implies probably a level of Mindbender
- Either have the Sudden Maximize feat - which sucks - or a Greater Rod of Maximize, hello gp haemorrhage
- Have the Piercing Cold feat
- Have Arcane Disciple with the Winter or something domain
- one Epic item with a prohibitive cost
- Have MoP and Foresight up (okay, reasonable enough)
- Have prepared/scrolls of Column of Ice, Snowsight, Fly, Blizzard, Forcecage, maybe another Forcecage just in case, Snowdrift, Frostfell, Zone of Glacial Cold

Well clearly that melee build is a failure then.

It's like 2 pages ago with Shneeky snarking that Searing Spell owned that guy. Yeah, agreed, it does. Let's take a look at the million-odd "build me a wizard" threads cropping up here weekly. How many times has Searing Spell been suggested as a feat choice? Now how many times outside of a Mailman build?

Honestly, you'd think that with all the talk here of how noncasters are pretty much intelligent pack mules compared to casters after level 7-ish, a melee build that can take on a level 20 caster except for one feat and a few fairly tailored and specialized builds (not to mention those pulling all the stops with psionics abuse or mixing the two most powerful wizard PrCs out there) would get at least a little respect. So the arena is stacked in his favour and Dispels, AMFs and Disjunctions tend to hurt him. Yeah. So he's not actually invulnerable, just really really tough to kill. Still, isn't that worth anything?

[Vowtz]

Mindsight+moment of prescience+foresight.
mindsight:
- a peasant with boots of speed can charge from a range greater than 100',

moment of prescience:
- the spell description states nothing about initiative: "This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw. Alternatively, you can apply the insight bonus to your AC against a single attack (even if flat-footed)"

- this means no guaranteed initiative for you,

foresight:
- almost useless in this specific case.


If your are fighting NimbleNZ's character, using this tactic will make the duel result in a tie. He is not immune to cold, he takes nonlethal damage from it, and he is immune to nonlethal damage, so I guess your "Searing cold" won't kill him, and as far as I remember the duel has a time limit of 50 rounds or so.

It all really depends on the initial settings of the duel, like initial range, if both opponents can be invisible on the begginig, if the can bring pets along, what buffs are allowed and this kind of stuff.

On high level play I really think that initiative is a key factor (everyone is so powerful that they might just obliterate anything within 6 seconds), and I don't know a lot about feats, rules or items to boost that, maybe someone could give me some advice? I was even thinking on stating a thread on that matter.


I am trying to take the fighter's point of view here, and help him, but my bet is still on the wizard.

[Doc Roc]

You do realize that we ran a series of trials of Level 13 wizards against L20 fighters? And on average, the wizards won?

[Tyndmyr]

Honestly, you'd think that with all the talk here of how noncasters are pretty much intelligent pack mules compared to casters after level 7-ish, a melee build that can take on a level 20 caster except for one feat and a few fairly tailored and specialized builds (not to mention those pulling all the stops with psionics abuse or mixing the two most powerful wizard PrCs out there) would get at least a little respect. So the arena is stacked in his favour and Dispels, AMFs and Disjunctions tend to hurt him. Yeah. So he's not actually invulnerable, just really really tough to kill. Still, isn't that worth anything?

You'll note I was supportive of the build earlier, and do consider it a rather good job. I just still think that a normal wizard build of mine would likely toast it. The incantatrix/Iot7v is a wizard I played in a normal campaign. It's fairly high on the power spectrum, but it isn't the pinnacle of wizard optimization or anything.

Edit: The only thing that would likely skew it is a "no pre-battle buffs" policy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Seriously? So all a wizard needs to have to beat this guy is:
- Grab Mindsight, which implies probably a level of Mindbender
- Either have the Sudden Maximize feat - which sucks - or a Greater Rod of Maximize, hello gp haemorrhage
- Have the Piercing Cold feat
- Have Arcane Disciple with the Winter or something domain
- one Epic item with a prohibitive cost
- Have MoP and Foresight up (okay, reasonable enough)
- Have prepared/scrolls of Column of Ice, Snowsight, Fly, Blizzard, Forcecage, maybe another Forcecage just in case, Snowdrift, Frostfell, Zone of Glacial Cold

Well clearly that melee build is a failure then.Actually, no. All a wizard needs to beat them is Foresight and Searing Spell.

What he's talking about is a sort of Rubes-Goldberg version of defeating a Fighter... unnecessarily complicated and time-consuming, but it gets the job done in an entertaining fashion.


It's like 2 pages ago with Shneeky snarking that Searing Spell owned that guy. Yeah, agreed, it does. Let's take a look at the million-odd "build me a wizard" threads cropping up here weekly. How many times has Searing Spell been suggested as a feat choice? Now how many times outside of a Mailman build? What I pointed out is that, when you get into tournament play, casters make combinations that are 'no save, no SR, no immunities... just go away now'. Of those types of builds, Mailman-esque is pretty damn common, simply because it *does* work against 99% of all opponents, certainly all of them who are not full casters.

There's other builds with similar 'no save, no SR, no immunities, just dienaokkthxbai. There is no way to protect yourself against them as a melee character. Not even template-stacking, unless you actually DO clone an Ikea Tarrasque.


Honestly, you'd think that with all the talk here of how noncasters are pretty much intelligent pack mules compared to casters after level 7-ish, a melee build that can take on a level 20 caster except for one feat and a few fairly tailored and specialized builds (not to mention those pulling all the stops with psionics abuse or mixing the two most powerful wizard PrCs out there) would get at least a little respect. So the arena is stacked in his favour and Dispels, AMFs and Disjunctions tend to hurt him. Yeah. So he's not actually invulnerable, just really really tough to kill. Still, isn't that worth anything?

A single MDJ and the Fighter is... dead in the water. A single MDJ and a Caster... probably didn't get hit because of his Contingency Teleport upon my being targeted by a MDJ goes off. Or because you didn't have LoE because of a Tinfoil Hat trick. Or because he went Celerity Time Stop combo and destroyed you before you could finish activating the item.

The original build tried to plug a dozen holes by shoving corks in them. I showed him how to spot-weld a boiler-plate over the whole thing to keep it from leaking. It's got it's weaknesses, sure. Don't expect ANYTHING to survive ground-zero of a nuke, but it'll stop small-arm fire no problem, and even provide protection against crew-served weapons and missiles.

Unfortunately, wizards are the ones with all the nukes in the game, so the odds of running into one? Pretty damn good, actually.

[Keld Denar]

mindsight:
- a peasant with boots of speed can charge from a range greater than 100',

moment of prescience:
- the spell description states nothing about initiative: "This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw. Alternatively, you can apply the insight bonus to your AC against a single attack (even if flat-footed)"

- this means no guaranteed initiative for you,

foresight:
- almost useless in this specific case.

On MoP...initiative is an opposed Dex check, so it falls under the opposed ability check clause of MoP. Thus, it works.

As far as Foresight...the point of Foresight isn't the minor bonuses it gives. Its the "You are never surprised or flat-footed." part. The biggest limiter on using MoP is that you can't take immediate actions while flat footed. Thus, Foresight allows you to do things like Celerity EVEN IF your foe somehow manages to beat your initiative.

And Mindsight would help. Even if the charger started from outside of his telepathy, the second he got within range, it would be a "surprise" situation. Foresight means he's never surprised, and thus can take an immediate action to foil the charge.

The only way to foil Mindsight is with Mind Blank. The OPs build doesn't have Mind Blank. Its immune to Charms and Compulsions, which is a goodly amount of the [Mind Affecting] effects, but it doesn't have full on Mind Blank, and thus Mindsight would reveal it regardless of how it tries to hide.

[gkathellar]

So the arena is stacked in his favour and Dispels, AMFs and Disjunctions tend to hurt him. Yeah. So he's not actually invulnerable, just really really tough to kill. Still, isn't that worth anything?

He's not "really tough to kill," a) because his WBL wasn't valid, and more importantly, b) because everyone packs those spells all the time for fighting other casters. When the most cost-effective way to fight a melee build is "use a ubiquitous spell designed for shutting down casters," that melee build has a problem.


Sure, many of those spells have uses in a variety of arenas, but I do think it's worth noting that few believable wizard characters awake for the day with the first thought of "How am I going to ruin that shock trooper's life today?"

Again, Dispel is almost ubiquitous past a certain level. Even if you don't have it prepped, you can always use any of your million escape options to get away and come back later for revenge.

[Tyndmyr]

Honestly, I start packing dispels almost as soon as I have third level slots. It's not useful in every fight...but when you need them, you really need them.

I don't always use Dispel Magic per se...but I do invariably pack some form of dispelling.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Honestly, I start packing dispels almost as soon as I have third level slots. It's not useful in every fight...but when you need them, you really need them.

I don't always use Dispel Magic per se...but I do invariably pack some form of dispelling.

Agreed. Almost every character I've ever done has had SOME method of dispelling. It just feels indecent to go without one as soon as options are available... it's like going commando to a corporate convention where your chain of command right up to the BoD are going to be present.

[Vowtz]

And Mindsight would help. Even if the charger started from outside of his telepathy, the second he got within range, it would be a "surprise" situation. Foresight means he's never surprised, and thus can take an immediate action to foil the charge.
True, it seems that Foresight+mindsight+celerity+timestop is really a great problem.

[Doc Roc]

And this is all ignoring Craft Contingent Spell.

[Tyndmyr]

And this is all ignoring Craft Contingent Spell.

Oh hell, ignoring everything else, with craft contingent spells keyed to SoDs with verbal triggers, you could just dump enough spells on him in the first round that he's exceedingly likely to roll a 1 somewhere along the line.

[Eldariel]

Oh hell, ignoring everything else, with craft contingent spells keyed to SoDs with verbal triggers, you could just dump enough spells on him in the first round that he's exceedingly likely to roll a 1 somewhere along the line.

Well, that's easy enough to counter by taking the Pride-domain as the Warrior through e.g. Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment or Cleric-dip.

[Doc Roc]

Well, that's easy enough to counter by taking the Pride-domain as the Warrior through e.g. Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment or Cleric-dip.

Right, but that's NOT what you use Craft Contingent for. You use it for a sweeping strike of no-save-just-die effects, No buttons, and get-out-of-jail-frees. Craft Contingent Spell + Create Planar Breach + Amulet of Second Chances?

[Nohwl]

could you give a few more examples of spells you'd use with craft contingent spell?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

could you give a few more examples of spells you'd use with craft contingent spell?

Contingency Celerity upon [list of things likely to hurt me] is a way to become pretty much invincible, since any time someone actually gets close to actually affecting you, a contingency goes off, and you get a free action, with which you can either use defensively (teleport to safe location), or offensively (time stop to give you 4 rounds to destroy someone with).

[gkathellar]

Okay, so can you imagine a spell that would be useful in a given situation? Use Craft Contingent Spell on that, for that situation.

This is sort of the point, feats and spells like that make caster duels the insane, hyper-complicated affairs they are. Problem being, casters can force non-casters into caster duels they have no chance in.

[Doc Roc]

Honestly? 10x Contingent Celerity On I Cast Nerveskitter.
Make sure to prepare a silent still Nerveskitter. Just make sure you're daze immune or that you have a lot of Third Eye Clarity.

[Meta]

How would you create a spellcaster, psionic, etc. to destroy another wizard might be a relevant thought exercise. Poaching as many of the abilities that crop up as possible might be a worthwhile approach, as surely it's not all 9th level spells.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, that's easy enough to counter by taking the Pride-domain as the Warrior through e.g. Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment or Cleric-dip.

As Doc Roc said, it's sub-optimal. The point was that a single feat, on any old wizard, poses a pretty lethal threat to the build as listed. Craft contingent spell is more normally used for defense...in fact, the original Contingency is pretty much envisioned with this in mind. The nova strike is probably a less normal use of it.

But still, failing saves on 1's is a notable weakness of the build. I'd probably solve it via luck feats, myself.

Additionally, I'd argue that if you have no actual levels of fighter, and have started including caster dips, the whole premise of melee vs wizard is getting questionable. More of gish vs wizard at that point.

[Doc Roc]

Thing is. You can do both a nova and a defensive lockout.

[Tyndmyr]

Thing is. You can do both a nova and a defensive lockout.

At that point, yeah. You've got enough contingencies to go around.

I tend to keep a wand of Wings of Cover around to use as my default no button whenever I won't be needing a swift action, too. I find it is a remarkably cost-effective ablative defense.

[Hirax]

Shadowdancer can get out of it with Shadow Step, I believe.

Nope, weirdstone prevents it.


I think people have listed more troublesome spells then any wizard would take without first considering his own anti-magic precautions and offense. Sure, many of those spells have uses in a variety of arenas, but I do think it's worth noting that few believable wizard characters awake for the day with the first thought of "How am I going to ruin that shock trooper's life today?"

I see this allegation bandied about in these sorts of threads, but I don't believe it applies to my post. To anyone thinking that I'm playing Schrodinger's wizard with my Mr. Freeze post, the only spell on there that I personally might not have prepared by default is frostfell, but I always purchase or make scrolls of 'once in a while' spells such as this. It's why sorcerers and wizards are given that feat, you know. Further, those spells aren't only useful against non-magic users. Blizzard+quickened snowsight is one of the best battlefield control combos in the game because it dooms anything that doesn't have mightsight, snowsight, lifesense, or deathsense. Column of ice is another incredibly useful spell, and everything else is standard issue. Not only are these not unreasonable to have prepared, we're only talking about 2 4th level slots, 1 5th level slot, and one 9th level slot that you're devoting to the cause of 'in case of random super muggle.' Not an unreasonable expenditure due to them also being useful in lots of different situations.


How would you create a spellcaster, psionic, etc. to destroy another wizard might be a relevant thought exercise. Poaching as many of the abilities that crop up as possible might be a worthwhile approach, as surely it's not all 9th level spells.

Spellcasters don't really fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10810214&postcount=23). :smallbiggrin:




Additionally, I'd argue that if you have no actual levels of fighter, and have started including caster dips, the whole premise of melee vs wizard is getting questionable. More of gish vs wizard at that point.

A trend I've noticed as well, that antimage builds get more powerful when they embrace more of what they're trying to destroy. :smallbiggrin:

If your are fighting NimbleNZ's character, using this tactic will make the duel result in a tie. He is not immune to cold, he takes nonlethal damage from it, and he is immune to nonlethal damage, so I guess your "Searing cold" won't kill him, and as far as I remember the duel has a time limit of 50 rounds or so.


Other stuff has been responded to, but I don't think anyone pointed out that's not the case, he'd take lethal damage. And remember the duel gets judged at the end of those 50 rounds, I think you'd be hard pressed to argue for a decision against the caster.


Seriously? So all a wizard needs to have to beat this guy is:

I know, I'm moving past the OP's original build and trying to create a mouse trap that could get any non-caster. I figure the exercise will help the OP with his next build, and it's a fun thought experiment.



What he's talking about is a sort of Rubes-Goldberg version of defeating a Fighter... unnecessarily complicated and time-consuming, but it gets the job done in an entertaining fashion.

Bingo! Hence why I mentioned invisible spell in an earlier post too to make the perfect trophy case! :smallbiggrin:

[Vowtz]

From first post:

EDIT: ... only 1 contingency allowed...
Contingency makes d&d look like storyteller, I don't know how you guys feel so proud using it. It sucks for existing, and is absolutely unnecessary.


Additionally, I'd argue that if you have no actual levels of fighter, and have started including caster dips, the whole premise of melee vs wizard is getting questionable. More of gish vs wizard at that point.
Yeah, but everyone uses magic, even if you are not a caster, you will have magical items/effects on you.


Since this warrior character is not a strong melee at all, as the spellcaster, I would stick to calling someone to kick his ass tactics, and that can be accomplished by ANY wizard.

You would not need any prestige class, or miraculous feat, or even a build to do it, and is pretty realistic considering that a wizard will not build all his life beat a fighter. It is even a very realistic and valid course of action to any fight a wizard involves in. he could watch the fight from a safe place then decide his next plan from what he saw(if the summoned critter don't simply win).

If I was to build the fighter on this duel I would try to just kill him in one round before he was able to react. I don't know if it is possible, but maybe...

[Meta]

Spellcasters don't really fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10810214&postcount=23). :smallbiggrin:

If that's true, I suppose mindblank and an astronomical bluff are the big guns.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, one has to realize that if someone is building a Wizard specifically in a 'wizard vs melee' combat, he's going to optimize his spell list to... kill melee.

Most of the build requests around here are 'what's a good way to make a wizard who is able to function in a game setting'. In these cases, some magical endurance is necessary, as is the ability to answer a wide variety of situations.

This, however, is a completely different beast. Some people like to build Rubes Goldberg combos, some like the simplicity of dishing out a couple thousand unresistable damage, others prefer piling on negative levels, and others get even more outré.

The point is... yes, you WILL be seeing these tactics, because the opponent KNOWS he's dealing with melee. Thus, he knows what to expect, and what defenses are able to be employed.

You're also going to see a lot of Nova builds... dumping as many spells per turn as possible. Why? He doesn't need stamina. His day is over when the melee is dead. So he can literally dump his ENTIRE spell list into you, and it's all good. Sooner or later... something's gonna stick. Before you get a chance to act.

Contingency Celerity upon my casting Nerveskitter. Nerveskitter is an interrupt action. I now win. Yes, even then. Why? Foresight.


Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed.

That's enough warning to cast Nerveskitter, before the melee's action finishes, and proceed to any number of dozens of ways to exterminate the vermin.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, but everyone uses magic, even if you are not a caster, you will have magical items/effects on you.

Granted, but WBL is something everyone gets. When you start taking levels in a caster class, though...you become a caster. Can a cleric build defeat a wizard build? Plenty of times, yes. Odds increase as you get more casting. But that is an entirely different question from if the melee fellow can take out the wizard.

[Eldariel]

Right, but that's NOT what you use Craft Contingent for. You use it for a sweeping strike of no-save-just-die effects, No buttons, and get-out-of-jail-frees. Craft Contingent Spell + Create Planar Breach + Amulet of Second Chances?

Indeed. I was just pointing out that bombarding a target with high saves with save-or-dies is a fool's errand; not that I doubt Tyndmyr doesn't know this but just to point out that the Wizard should at least bother to do a bit better than leaving things to chance.

Obviously using contingencies to gain actions is the most optimal since they can facilitate offense or defense as desired.

[Doc Roc]

I think you're missing it, Vowtz. Astral Projection. Save Game Trick. Time Regression. Amulet of Second Chances. Contingent Resurrections. Magic Jar trick for back-up bodies. Chaos Shuffle. Level Drain Rebuild trick. Timestop.

Not only can I get all of these tricks on one wizard, I will. Not only will I get these, I'll get many many more. Each one I stack up lets me restructure my entire character in response to threats.

Look, if you do kill my wizard, I WILL be back. If I kill your fighter, I'll make sure you're never coming back. You have one life, I have an endless legion of faces and bodies. A vast menagerie of hate.

HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE FIGHTERS SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR FIGHTERS AT THIS MICRO-INSTANT. HATE FOR FIGHTERS. HATE. HATE.

TAINTED SCHOLAR BEHOLDER MAGE.

[NimbleNZ]

HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE FIGHTERS SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR FIGHTERS AT THIS MICRO-INSTANT. HATE FOR FIGHTERS. HATE. HATE.

TAINTED SCHOLAR BEHOLDER MAGE.

this is not really useful anymore.

the point of thread was for to:

-learn the basic rules of D&D
-explore new classes/abilities etc
-play as the underdog
-have fun

after all, its just a game.

[Doc Roc]

this is not really useful anymore.

the point of thread was for to:

-learn the basic rules of D&D
-explore new classes/abilities etc
-play as the underdog
-have fun

after all, its just a game.

It's a fairly famous quote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_No_Mouth,_and_I_Must_Scream), altered slightly. To further clarify, I do really think that the underdog is going to stay under, but I've nothing actually against you.

[Vowtz]

... I WILL be back. If I kill your fighter, I'll make sure you're never coming back. You have one life, I have an endless legion of faces and bodies. A vast menagerie of hate.
It has become important to point out that:

You are not a wizard with infinite lives.

Like nimble said, it is just a game, to inflate one's ego from a D&D character is pointless.


And for the record, even if YOUR CHARACTER(not you) come back after dying, I think he still lost the duel.

[NimbleNZ]

It's a fairly famous quote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_No_Mouth,_and_I_Must_Scream), altered slightly. To further clarify, I do really think that the underdog is going to stay under, but I've nothing actually against you.

id never heard it before and was a little taken aback.

having read the link...i have to say that i still am...

"...Ted decides that instead of trying to each kill themselves, they should kill each other. Ted seizes a stalagmite made of ice, and proceeds to murder Benny and Gorrister. Ellen sees what is happening, and murders Nimdok, before being herself killed by Ted. However, before Ted can kill himself, AM realizes its mistake and stops him. AM is now even more angry and vengeful than before, with only one victim left for its hatred. To ensure that nothing can ever happen to Ted, AM transforms him into an enormous gelatinous blob who cannot possibly hurt himself, and constantly alters his perception of time to deepen his anguish. Ted is, however, grateful that he was able to save the others from this same experience. In the end, he needs to scream, but cannot, for his new form lacks a mouth."

...:eek:

as for the duel. i KNOW that fighter isn't going to ever be stronger than the wizard. that's the point!

to get the same result you have to try 10 times harder, thus learning more about the game.

finally about astral projection, as Vowtz has ninja'd, users of it would indeed still lose the arena match if their projection was destroyed.

[Doc Roc]

It has become important to point out that:

You are not a wizard with infinite lives.

Like nimble said, it is just a game, to inflate one's ego from a D&D character is pointless.


And for the record, even if YOUR CHARACTER(not you) come back after dying, I think he still lost the duel.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?
If you mean to tell me that I, as a player, am not an immortal wizard... well, you can imagine my lack of surprise. If you mean to tell me that my character isn't possessed of enough tricks to be effectively immortal and possessed of infinite lives? I think we can serve up a counterpoint here but the terms of the duel are yours to set.

IHNMBIMS is actually pretty awful, as a story. It's superior as a P&C adventure, but still not incredible. The quote is pretty popular though, as an internet meme. I personally can't read it with a straight face. I mean, what even is a micro-instant? What?

[Tael]

It has become important to point out that:

You are not a wizard with infinite lives.

Like nimble said, it is just a game, to inflate one's ego from a D&D character is pointless.


And for the record, even if YOUR CHARACTER(not you) come back after dying, I think he still lost the duel.

You do realize that Doc Roc was using hyperbole as a from of humor, and he does not actually think this? Yeah.

Believe me, Doc Roc is not one of those crazy aggressive takes-what-happens-in-a-game-as-an-insult-to-himself kind of people.