Wizard Variants

[sullg26535]

I'm playing a gestalt campaign where I've made my wizard the socially proficient enchanter. That being said I will never scribe a scroll and don't plan on using the feat. Would it be possible to do the martial wizard variant and pick up improved initiative instead of scribe scroll? While keeping the bonuses to skills. Our campaign is counts prestige classes as both your levels rather than one so I'm loath to use any prestige classes.

[skycycle blues]

What is the other side of your Gestalt? And why aren't you ever going to be scribing scrolls?

And if the character is already made and being played, your question would really be up to your DM's discretion.

[sullg26535]

Other side of my gestalt is cleric. I wouldn't be scribing scrolls because I feel the XP waste is annoying and I'd rather invest the money in something that can be used more than once.

[Hiro Protagonest]

What's priest and why are you gestating two active classes?

[sullg26535]

Reasoning behind the cleric wizard was I went cloistered cleric allowing me to flesh out my skills and the additional magic helps to fill gaps in my casting along with providing healing to a small party.

[Keld Denar]

Other side of my gestalt is priest. I wouldn't be scribing scrolls because I feel the XP waste is annoying and I'd rather invest the money in something that can be used more than once.

A lot of people tend to have this opinion. "I don't want to use my consumable resources because I might need them later".

Well, most of the time, they tend to hold onto that resource until its not even useful anymore. I was recently looking at the economics of a Wand of Lesser Vigor vs a Belt of Healing. Belt heals ~9 HP up to 3/day. Wand heals 11 HP per charge. At low levels, when one use is enough to top most people off, thats 3 encounters/day that Belt helps you recover from. At a rate of 3 encounters/day, a fully charged wand will last you through 16.7 DAYS worth of encounters. While the books say its supposed to take about 13 encounters to level up, most of the time I find this isn't the case, its closer to 4-6. That means on average, the Wand of Lesser Vigor will last you through about 8 levels, if you use it at the same rate you'd use the Healing Belt at. PLUS, you have the option to consume MORE charges/day if you need more healing. Healing Belt doesn't really have that functionality. Unless the game is a REALLY long slog over the course of multiple days, consumables are the better deal. Sure, eventually a Belt of Healing results in infinite healing, while the wand caps at 550 HP, but for most games and most characters, is there a big difference between 550 HP and infinite healing? Generally, no.

Another analysis I saw was Winged Boots vs a Potion of Flying. Winged Boots cost 16,000g, while the potion only costs 750g, both requiring a standard action to activate. You can buy 21.3 Potions of Flying for the same cost as the Winged Boots, they don't take up a body slot, and you can buy them in installments so they are affordable MUCH earlier. You'd have to have a need to fly in 22+ encounters or situations in order to pay off the cost of the boots.

Scrolls cost you 1 XP for a 1st level scroll, 6 for a 2nd level scroll, and 15 for a 3rd level scroll. You get way more XP than that from killing a single orc for most levels. While using scrolls for major attack spells is not cost effective, having a bunch of utility scrolls on your Bat Utility Belt is incredibly effective.

A lot of D&D players I've seen are so hesitant about consumables, but really they are the most cost effective way to do many things. Now, I wouldn't recommend Potions of Haste vs Boots of Speed, since there is an activation cost with the potion while the Boots of Speed are a free action, but for some things, like the healing or flight as I mentioned above, you'd be pretty hard pressed to beat their economy.

[sullg26535]

The items I tend to value are things such as a rod of metamagic, bag of holding, bonuses to intellect and other things that provide solid long term advantages and scaling well. We're playing a spell point system and with having both cleric and wizard I don't think that running out of spells will be much of an issue after about 2nd level. I'm not someone that likes to hold onto magic items but more sell them to get the items I'd rather have.

[Zaq]

A lot of people tend to have this opinion. "I don't want to use my consumable resources because I might need them later".

Well, most of the time, they tend to hold onto that resource until its not even useful anymore. I was recently looking at the economics of a Wand of Lesser Vigor vs a Belt of Healing. Belt heals ~9 HP up to 3/day. Wand heals 11 HP per charge. At low levels, when one use is enough to top most people off, thats 3 encounters/day that Belt helps you recover from. At a rate of 3 encounters/day, a fully charged wand will last you through 16.7 DAYS worth of encounters. While the books say its supposed to take about 13 encounters to level up, most of the time I find this isn't the case, its closer to 4-6. That means on average, the Wand of Lesser Vigor will last you through about 8 levels, if you use it at the same rate you'd use the Healing Belt at. PLUS, you have the option to consume MORE charges/day if you need more healing. Healing Belt doesn't really have that functionality. Unless the game is a REALLY long slog over the course of multiple days, consumables are the better deal. Sure, eventually a Belt of Healing results in infinite healing, while the wand caps at 550 HP, but for most games and most characters, is there a big difference between 550 HP and infinite healing? Generally, no.

Another analysis I saw was Winged Boots vs a Potion of Flying. Winged Boots cost 16,000g, while the potion only costs 750g, both requiring a standard action to activate. You can buy 21.3 Potions of Flying for the same cost as the Winged Boots, they don't take up a body slot, and you can buy them in installments so they are affordable MUCH earlier. You'd have to have a need to fly in 22+ encounters or situations in order to pay off the cost of the boots.

Scrolls cost you 1 XP for a 1st level scroll, 6 for a 2nd level scroll, and 15 for a 3rd level scroll. You get way more XP than that from killing a single orc for most levels. While using scrolls for major attack spells is not cost effective, having a bunch of utility scrolls on your Bat Utility Belt is incredibly effective.

A lot of D&D players I've seen are so hesitant about consumables, but really they are the most cost effective way to do many things. Now, I wouldn't recommend Potions of Haste vs Boots of Speed, since there is an activation cost with the potion while the Boots of Speed are a free action, but for some things, like the healing or flight as I mentioned above, you'd be pretty hard pressed to beat their economy.

While that's true for the most part, the part about the minor XP cost is only true with some GMs. Most GMs I've played under, including the ones who actually calculate out most XP instead of just leveling up after every major plot point or whatever, usually round the amount of XP the party gets to "eh, you're pretty close after that fight. OK, you're all at level 6 now." If a GM does something like that (perhaps not what the book says specifically, but I've played under at least four or five GMs who have done something similar) and then applies the crafting penalty (so you're at level 6 now, minus the 8 XP you spent on crafting), you can lag behind for a session or so, which sucks. I'm not going to go so far as to say that this is likely to happen, and I'm sure there are plenty of GMs out there who track XP differently from the way my groups have tended to, but I'm just going to say that this is a possibility that you should be aware of when you make a crafting character. If your GM doesn't fudge XP totals and doesn't like to give you exactly enough to level, then you're golden, and you're almost never going to notice the lost XP (at which point the question of whether or not you had a cost at all comes up, but that's a discussion for another day), but know your GM first.

Also, while by RAW you're supposed to calculate each player's XP individually, I've never met a GM who does so, so the whole "XP is a river" thing (which you didn't specifically mention, but which is bound to come up in a discussion like this) only applies if your GMs aren't lazy. Nobody mentioned this right now, but any time the XP costs of crafting come up, someone's sure to.

[JaronK]

I'm playing a gestalt campaign where I've made my wizard the socially proficient enchanter. That being said I will never scribe a scroll and don't plan on using the feat. Would it be possible to do the martial wizard variant and pick up improved initiative instead of scribe scroll? While keeping the bonuses to skills. Our campaign is counts prestige classes as both your levels rather than one so I'm loath to use any prestige classes.

Yes, you can use the Martial Wizard Variant. There's also a bunch of variants in Unearthed Arcana that might interest you (though I don't remember if they give up Scribe Scroll or not), including an Enchanter variant.

And note that if you wanted initiative, there's a Hummingbird Familiar that gives a bonus to initiative.

JaronK

[sullg26535]

In regards to XP we've been handling it as hey you get xp for the adventure and we're all over the map. DMing will be rotating between three of us so its going to be interesting in terms of XP but it will not be to level. That being said I personally don't enjoy using scrolls a lot and so if I really need a scroll in a pinch I"ll hit up our other wizard to make it. I'm wondering if I'm able to substitute fighter feats aka Improved Initiative for scribe scroll and also do my socially proficient enchanter both of which are from UA based on RAW

[sullg26535]

And note that if you wanted initiative, there's a Hummingbird Familiar that gives a bonus to initiative.

JaronK

I might have to check that one out where is it from? I've been currently using the snake for the +3 bluff buff but initiative is rather nice as I love acting first.

[JaronK]

One of the dragon magazines, I'm afraid. But you can find the stats of it if you look about a bit online.

JaronK

[SamBurke]

One of the dragon magazines, I'm afraid. But you can find the stats of it if you look about a bit online.

JaronK

There's also one for Pathfinder, if your GM is more acceptable to that for whatever reason. (Compsognathus, UM, I believe...)

[dextercorvia]

Yes, you can use the Martial Wizard Variant. There's also a bunch of variants in Unearthed Arcana that might interest you (though I don't remember if they give up Scribe Scroll or not), including an Enchanter variant.

And note that if you wanted initiative, there's a Hummingbird Familiar that gives a bonus to initiative.

JaronK

The Enchanter Variant is fairly powerful --


Cohort

Upon reaching 6th level, an enchanter using this variant gains the service of a loyal cohort of the player's choice (with the game master's approval). The cohort is a 4th-level character when first gained; after that point, follow the normal rules described in the Leadership feat to determine the cohort's level, but treat the enchanter's level as being two lower than normal.

The enchanter doesn't gain any followers from this ability. If the enchanter selects the Leadership feat, he attracts followers as normal, the penalty to the enchanter's effective level is eliminated, and the enchanter automatically qualifies for the "special power" modifier to his Leadership score.

An enchanter using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

[sullg26535]

I'm using the socially proficient enchanter and as sad as it seems I'd like to keep my familiar as I enjoy the buff boost over that of a cohort.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Social Proficiency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#enchanterVariants):
An enchanter using this variant does not gain bonus feats for advancing as a wizard.

Scribe Scroll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#scribeScroll)
At 1st level, a wizard gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.


Why do you think you get to keep Scribe Scroll when using that variant?


I'd have used Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) instead of Cleric.

[sullg26535]

Thanks for answering the question somehow I missed that line in character creation. We're using core character classes so options were Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, and Wizard. Prestige classes are allowed however you lose only get the 1 prestige class instead of your 2 gestalt classes.