Do I understand this correctly? (ToB)

[Seharvepernfan]

I'm picking out maneuvers and stances for a warblade, specifically at 4th level.

Is it true that you can access a new level of maneuvers/stances at odd numbered levels like a wizard (2nd at 3rd, 3rd at 5th, 4th at 7th), right?

So, that means that at 4th level when I get a new stance, it has to be a 1st level stance?

Because I've noticed there aren't any 2nd level ones but there are tons of 3rd level ones...

[ThatLovin'Elan]

So, that means that at 4th level when I get a new stance, it has to be a 1st level stance?

Because I've noticed there aren't any 2nd level ones but there are tons of 3rd level ones...

Yup. Sucks, huh?

[Seharvepernfan]

Yup. Sucks, huh?

:roy: ..............

[Dead_Jester]

Most homebrewed ToB classes have addressed this issue, as it is almost universally acknowledged as being either a mistake or a bad design choice. As such, I recommend adopting a stance progression like the one Gralamin presented here Tome Of Battle Stance Progressions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124112), although it is really only necessary for the Warblade (who can't get a 3rd level stance as his 2nd stance) and Crusader (who can't get an 8th level stance without multiclassing or burning a feat)

[Vladislav]

If you really must get a 3rd level stance early, the solution is to take two levels of ... oh, I don't know, let's say, Fighter, between your 3rd and 4th Warblade levels. Then, by the time you get your 4th Warblade level, your Initiator level is 5 (4+2/1=5), and you can take a 3rd level stance at character level 6 (a sinlge-classed Warblade doesn't get this option until level 10!).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can take a single level of a racial paragon class (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantRaces.htm) before Warblade 4, and be able to pick a 3rd level stance. Racial paragon classes are prestige classes, and prestige class levels add their full level to your initiator level as per ToB p39.

[Keld Denar]

Um, no. Initiator PrCs add their full level to IL. Things like Bloodclaw Master, Deepstone Sentinal, or Shadowsun Ninja. Non-Initiator PrCs (like Bloodstorm Blade in ToB, or basically every other PrC ever printed) don't.

EDIT: If you go to chapter 5 (which page 39 references as the primary source), you see in each PrC that advances IL on a 1:1 basis that it contains language that indicates so. "You add your full bloodclaw master levels 10 your initator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known."

Bloodstorm Blade does not contain this language, and does not add to your IL 1:1. Similarly, no other PrCs in any other book contains this verbage. The fact that BSB does not progress IL is proof that non-initiator PrCs don't advance IL either.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On page 39 it explains that one-half your levels in non-initiator classes are added to your initiator level. It then goes on to very clearly state that prestige classes work differently from that, and that in most cases (which would imply over 50% of the prestige classes ever printed) you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level. I'd say whenever it's not clearly stated that a prestige class doesn't follow this, it should be presumed that it does.

[Keld Denar]

See my edit. Another reading would be that MOST PrCs in THIS BOOK advance IL. Which is true. Of the 8 PrCs in ToB, 7 of them advance IL 1:1. That is "most", as far as this book is concerned. Most books don't make rules that change how things outside of that book are treated. Thus, the rules in ToB are for the classes, feats, and abilities within ToB.

[marcielle]

Well, if they just advance initiator level but not actually grant maneuvers or stances, I'd hardly say it's OP. And if it's not OP and if wording is at least 50% ambiguous, you should be able to convince a DM that's what it means.
And since it says 'in most cases' INSTEAD of 'in most cases in this book', I really don't see any reason to specifically disallow this. It would just go under 'wordings WotC unknowingly screwed up'. At least this isn't Dragon Disciple levels of derp.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think the only thing clear about the PrC rule in ToB is that it's not clear at all. Interpreting the sentence to mean that it only applies to PrCs in the book adds your own context; that assumption might be true, and it might not. Then again, the other way to read it merely says that some percentage of PrCs (greater than 50%) advance IL - it doesn't say which ones.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Um, no. Initiator PrCs add their full level to IL. Things like Bloodclaw Master, Deepstone Sentinal, or Shadowsun Ninja. Non-Initiator PrCs (like Bloodstorm Blade in ToB, or basically every other PrC ever printed) don't.

You are technically correct however, it is a common houserule for human paragon's "any casting" to be extended to all alternative systems; binding, incarnate, initiating etc.

Still wouldn't solve the problem though since translating the advancement should progress you on the maneuver/stances known chart as well as in initiator level so you'd still get another 1st level stance.

I don't think there are any ToB PrC's you can enter before 6th level so your options are.

1. Housrule delaying stance progression.

2. Suck it up, take martial stance at 6th.

3. Take two levels in another class.

4. Ask for a house rule making a martially incline class like fighter Fully progress initiator level and take a 1 level dip.

[Big Fau]

The errata has clarified the stance progressions of both the Crusader and Warblade. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0)

[Telok]

It is not official errata.

It's pretty good, and infinitely better than WotC errata, but sadly not official.

[Big Fau]

It is not official errata.

It's pretty good, and infinitely better than WotC errata, but sadly not official.

It's not like WotC is ever going to finish the errata properly. They discontinued support for 3.5 back in 2008. Asking CustServ about anything related to 3.5 just results in a waste of time, seeing as they won't answer it.

And Paizo isn't allowed to touch the Bo9S due to copyright laws.

[Vladislav]

I don't think there are any ToB PrC's you can enter before 6th level so your options are.

1. Housrule delaying stance progression.

2. Suck it up, take martial stance at 6th.

3. Take two levels in another class.

4. Ask for a house rule making a martially incline class like fighter Fully progress initiator level and take a 1 level dip.

5. That bonus feat that Warblades gain on level 5? The one that has to be chosen from a certain list? Ask your DM to houserule this list to include Martial Stance. Easier than houseruling the entire progression.

[flumphy]

It's not like WotC is ever going to finish the errata properly. They discontinued support for 3.5 back in 2008. Asking CustServ about anything related to 3.5 just results in a waste of time, seeing as they won't answer it.

And Paizo isn't allowed to touch the Bo9S due to copyright laws.

Customer service actually did state in the FAQ that only the ToB PrCs advance IL on a 1:1 basis. Not that custserv is RAW.

[Big Fau]

Customer service actually did state in the FAQ that only the ToB PrCs advance IL on a 1:1 basis. Not that custserv is RAW.

Which was posted before WotC officially discontinued the system.

[Draz74]

So, that means that at 4th level when I get a new stance, it has to be a 1st level stance?

Because I've noticed there aren't any 2nd level ones but there are tons of 3rd level ones...


Yup. Sucks, huh?


:roy: ..............

It's actually not as bad as it seems, because Level 3 Warblade Stances mostly suck anyway. Unless you're making an extremely jump-focused build (and taking Leaping Dragon Stance) or a grapple-focused build (and taking Crushing Weight of the Mountain), you don't lose much by never getting a Level 3 stance.

Level 1 Stances, on the other hand, have enough good options that taking two of them doesn't hurt much. Punishing Stance is probably the most powerful option (or alternatively, a dedicated crit-fisher with Blood in the Water), but Hunter's Sense and Leading the Charge are also useful to practically any Warblade. (And I think Bolstering Voice is a nicer option than it usually gets recognized for -- unless the party has another source of Morale bonuses like a Bard.)


Racial paragon classes are prestige classes,
Citation Needed. :smalltongue:

I disagree with your interpretation on the rest of this debate, too, but it's all moot unless you can present some evidence that Paragon classes are actually PrCs.


The errata has clarified the stance progressions of both the Crusader and Warblade. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0)

Most of the BG errata is good common-sense stuff, but it's not the perfect solution you make it out to be.

I'm ambivalent about altering Stance progressions for the Warblade and Crusader; I don't really like giving the Crusader tower shields, although I can't imagine it makes too big an impact.

But there are some changes I really dislike. I liked that non-initiators couldn't get maneuvers and stances via feat at Level 1. (And as long as they wrote an errata for Martial Study, would it have hurt anything to clarify that you need to meet initiator level requirements to select a maneuver with this feat!??)