Sorcadin without abjurant champion

[Master Thrower]

Much as the title says, I'm trying to make a level 12 sorcadin. The campaign is aiming for 20. Anyways how would I do this, without abjurant champion? Most sources, except dragon magazine stuff. Ideas on feats/races/spells/PrC?

[herrhauptmann]

Might I suggest the Sublime Arcanamach?

Pal 2 (harmonious knight ACF, ask DM if it counts as bard song)
Full bab 4. (Maybe Wolf totem+Spirit lion totem barb 2 and warblade or crusader 2)
Suel arcanamach 4 (Bab 9 at level 10)
Sublime chord 1 (stack its casting onto Suel)
Spellsword 1. (bab 10.5 at level 12)
You have a CL 6. Your spells are dispelled against CL 12. Very high ASF reduction.
Levels 13-20? Take whatever you want. I recommend something with either medium bab, or really awesome class features.
So long as those other prestige classes have at least 7 levels of casting, you'll have 9th level spells by level 20.
Sacred exorcist should do nicely. It is full casting and medium bab, which means 9th level spells and 16 bab by level 20.


Why do you want to avoid Abjurant Champion?

[Master Thrower]

More that the DM has said no abjurant champion as my own personal restriction. The other members of the party are fairly low OP

[JaronK]

I would have suggested Anima Mage + Arcane Disciple so you can persist Divine Power, but if it's about you being overpowered, let's not go there. What about the basic Eldritch Knight? Dragonslayer and Spellsword might also help.

JaronK

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Without Abjurant Champion, you can't get 9th level spells and +16 BAB by 20th on a Sorcadin without using Kobold shenanigans. You'd need the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) at a minimum, with something like the following:

Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ (eight levels of leeway) / Eldritch Knight 5

That eight level gap needs to get 8/8 spellcasting and 6/8 BAB. You could use Sacred Exorcist, taking enough Eldritch Knight first to qualify. You could also put four more Eldritch Knight levels there with four levels of something like Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle. Incantatrix 4 can use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to Persist all its buffs, so all-day Shield, Wraithstrike, Displacement, etc. Be sure to get a (Ancestral Relic or Item Familiar) Runestaff so you don't have to spend spells known on any of your 1/day buffs. You could make those eight levels go Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Sacred Exorcist 4/ Eldritch Knight 2 to get Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness. You could also put four levels of Divine Oracle in there, having visited the Frog God's Fane in Complete Scoundrel to get its feat prerequisite, and have Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.

I'd personally start out Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 3/ Eldritch Knight 2, take Eldritch Knight to 9 and get one more Incantatrix level in there somewhere. Say you visited the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will for gold instead of spending a feat on it. Get Ancestral Relic for a Runestaff that preferably also grants a Competence bonus to Spellcraft checks. Spells like Shield, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Swift Fly, Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, Displacement, Magic Circle Against Evil, Ray Deflection, Greater Mirror Image, Draconic Polymorph, Draconic Might, and Dragonsight should be made Persistent every day via Incantatrix. You should also cast Heart of Water and maybe the other three every day, probably with a (Lesser) Rod of Extend. You'll want to spend a feat on Arcane Preparation to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED every day, and get a Rod of Bodily Restoration to fix the Str damage that occurs when that spell runs out.

Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), get Extend Spell, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Draconic Reserve, Practiced Spellcaster, Ancestral Relic, and Arcane Strike, with Improved Toughness and Persistent Spell from Eldritch Knight and Incantatrix. Get the Metamagic Specialist ACF in PH2 for Sorcerer, and when you get Incantatrix 4 pick up Quicken Spell. Get a Circlet of Rapid Casting, metamagic rods, an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW), and pick from this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) to take care of anything your spells can't cover.


EDIT

More that the DM has said no abjurant champion as my own personal restriction. The other members of the party are fairly low OP

Well, there goes that idea...

[Lateral]

Unfortunately, sorcerers don't get 9th level spells until 18th level, so you'd need to get that extra few levels of full BAB after the Sorcerer 2 dip without losing caster levels- you can't do that without Abjurant Champion. This means that the Sorcerer entry is no longer optimal unless you can boost your effective sorcerer level (via the Greater Rite of Passage or some such). I doubt that your DM will accept this, though- probably best just to go Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 7 or Knight Phantom 7. (Be human and take the Militia feat from the PGtF or be a Gray Elf and take the Otherworldly feat from the same book.)

[Urpriest]

If you're not going epic then the difference between +16 and +15 BAB at 20 is rather minimal. Just something to consider.

[herrhauptmann]

More that the DM has said no abjurant champion as my own personal restriction. The other members of the party are fairly low OP

Hmm, well it looks like an actual sorcadin with 9th levels and 16 bab will be beyond you.

Check out Suel arcanamach and sublime chord. Both of them provide their own casting.
If the DM doesn't allow the Harmonious Knight ACF to count as bardsong, then I don't think you'll be able to pull off 16bab/9th levels by level 20.

The sublime arcanamach above will give you most of what a sorcadin gets. 1-3rd level spells off of the sorc/wiz list, though you're slightly restricted on schools. The sublime chord gets you 4-9th level spells by Sublime 9 off of the sorc/wiz and bard lists.
Although total spells known and spells per day will be slightly lower than a sorcadin. But since the rest of the party is low op, that should be a good way of lowering yourself to their level. (If sorcadin were low tier 2, then the sublime arcanamach should be middle tier 3)

Starting at level 12 should get you past most of the painful levels in the build too. 1-6 are fine, you're a standard charismatic warrior type. But 7-10 are a little painful as you're much weaker in terms of casting than your enemies, while you find your straight melee abilities slipping compared to the other party warriors.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bard/UrPriest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge and double-9's it?

[hex0]

Uhh...Witch Hunter (which advances caster level) or Akodo Champion from Oriental Adventurers for CHA to saves instead of Paladin. :smallwink:

Not sure what to replace Abjurant Champion with though other than a bizarre mix of full bab half casting prcs...you are going to have a weird character!

[Master Thrower]

Hmm, well it looks like an actual sorcadin with 9th levels and 16 bab will be beyond you.

Check out Suel arcanamach and sublime chord. Both of them provide their own casting.
If the DM doesn't allow the Harmonious Knight ACF to count as bardsong, then I don't think you'll be able to pull off 16bab/9th levels by level 20.

The sublime arcanamach above will give you most of what a sorcadin gets. 1-3rd level spells off of the sorc/wiz list, though you're slightly restricted on schools. The sublime chord gets you 4-9th level spells by Sublime 9 off of the sorc/wiz and bard lists.
Although total spells known and spells per day will be slightly lower than a sorcadin. But since the rest of the party is low op, that should be a good way of lowering yourself to their level. (If sorcadin were low tier 2, then the sublime arcanamach should be middle tier 3)

Starting at level 12 should get you past most of the painful levels in the build too. 1-6 are fine, you're a standard charismatic warrior type. But 7-10 are a little painful as you're much weaker in terms of casting than your enemies, while you find your straight melee abilities slipping compared to the other party warriors.

Well no Harmonious Knight unfortunately, but I think I have a way to get +16 BAB, feel free to correct me here

Paladin 2, Full BAB 4, Suel Arcanamach 4 Bard 1, Sublime Chord 1, Sacred Exorcist 7, Dragon Slayer 1.

(Using UA BAB stacking) thats
7 Levels of Full BAB- +7
12 Levels of Medium BAB-+9
1 Level of Poor BAB= +0
Total- +16 BAB

Any ideas on feats? as this build is pretty feat open for now (meaning im not trying hard enough) All I need are combat casting (hopefully skill focus concentration, dodge, and iron will.

Edit: Also trying to fit in a level of spell sword if possible

[Safety Sword]

Bard/UrPriest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge and double-9's it?

If the idea is not to outshine your low power party members, then ignore Shneekey :smalltongue:

[herrhauptmann]

Well no Harmonious Knight unfortunately, but I think I have a way to get +16 BAB, feel free to correct me here

Paladin 2, Full BAB 4, Suel Arcanamach 4 Bard 1, Sublime Chord 1, Sacred Exorcist 7, Dragon Slayer 1.

(Using UA BAB stacking) thats
7 Levels of Full BAB- +7
12 Levels of Medium BAB-+9
1 Level of Poor BAB= +0
Total- +16 BAB

Any ideas on feats? as this build is pretty feat open for now (meaning im not trying hard enough) All I need are combat casting (hopefully skill focus concentration, dodge, and iron will.

Edit: Also trying to fit in a level of spell sword if possible

I think that would do it...
Very skill starved (especially for that sublime chord) I'd suggest human with able learner.
Combat casting is a prereq, as is Iron Will (otyugh hole). Any feat prereqs for dragon slayer?
If you had abj champ 5, I'd say take some mageslayer feats before you finish Abj Champ, then applying bonuses in order gained works to your advantage. You'll still have a CL=BAB, rather than at a -4,8 or 12.

Do you know what kind of fighting style you want? TWF? 2HF? Single hand weapon in two hands (probably ideal)

Lets see, there's also Knight of the weave (Champ oF Valor):
Casting is similar to Suel, but prereqs are a little easier (only +5 bab). Medium bab, good fort and will. And the spell list sorta sucks...
Full bab 5/ Knight of weave5 still means you don't start sublime until level 11 though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If the idea is not to outshine your low power party members, then ignore Shneekey :smalltongue:

Hey, the DM said 'no AbChamp'... I would take this as a personal challenge to piss all over his game as much as possible without using it, and pointing out that AbChamp is actually one of the LEAST powerful options at my disposal.

[gbprime]

Easy answer... skip Paladin.

Battle Sorcerer 7 / Eldritch Knight 10 (or Knight Phantom if in Eberron) / Ruathar 3

This results in 17 BAB and 19 caster levels. But you're down some Sorc spells known, so you'll need a Bloodline feat to make up for it.



if you HAVE to have some Paladin in there and still want 9th level spells...

Paladin 2 / Battle Sorcerer 16/ Spellsword 1 / Dragonslayer 1

That gets you CL 18 by 20th level for 9th level spells, and your BAB of 16. (Dragonslayer is from Draconomicon)


This is, of course, quite sub-optimal. But you said that wasn't a concern. (Otherwise, max out caster level and find a way to get Divine Power as an arcane spell...)

[hex0]

Lets get cheesy:

Play an Outsider and buy off the LA (if needed), or play with the militant feat: Sorcerer 6/Phantom Knight 2/Witch Hunter 2/Phantom Knight 8/Spellsword 1/Dragon Slayer 1

18th level Sorcerer casting, 17 BAB, still has CHA to saves

[Tvtyrant]

I believe one possible way to accomplish something like this is to take Paladin with Sword of the Arcane Order and Harmonious Knight so you cast wizard spells from your Paladin slots and have bardic music, then enter into Sublime Chord and get full casting. There are probably better ways, but with this you get things like Rhino Rush!

[herrhauptmann]

I believe one possible way to accomplish something like this is to take Paladin with Sword of the Arcane Order and Harmonious Knight so you cast wizard spells from your Paladin slots and have bardic music, then enter into Sublime Chord and get full casting. There are probably better ways, but with this you get things like Rhino Rush!
Harmonious knight was nixed.
And paladin doesn't get 3rd level spells until level 11, so no sublime until level 12.
Also, does SotAO say you cast wizard spells as paladin (thus divine), or what?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sword of the Arcane Order says you can use your Paladin and Ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells. You need the standard minimum Int score, the DCs are Int-based, and they're prepared from your spellbook or from a borrowed spellbook. If you also have Wizard levels, you add your Paladin and Ranger levels to your Wizard caster level.

It says nothing about whether they're cast as arcane or divine spells, and since spells cast by a Paladin are divine by default these spells would also be cast as divine spells.

Cleric into Prestige Paladin with Magical Training to get a spellbook, Sword of the Arcane Order to prepare those spells in your Cleric slots, and Battle Blessing so every spell you cast gets quickened for free?!

[hex0]

Cleric into Prestige Paladin with Magical Training to get a spellbook, Sword of the Arcane Order to prepare those spells in your Cleric slots, and Battle Blessing so every spell you cast gets quickened for free?!

Nice, but not exactly a true Sorcadin.

[Lateral]

Cleric into Prestige Paladin with Magical Training to get a spellbook, Sword of the Arcane Order to prepare those spells in your Cleric slots, and Battle Blessing so every spell you cast gets quickened for free?!
Does that actually work? I don't think that you have Paladin spell slots as a Prestige Paladin, just that paladin spells are added to your cleric's spell list.

[gbprime]

Does that actually work? I don't think that you have Paladin spell slots as a Prestige Paladin, just that paladin spells are added to your cleric's spell list.

That's not rules as written, nor even as intended. Those are cleric spell slots, being advanced by a PrC called [Insert Any Name Here]. Sword of the Arcane Order applies only to PALADIN and RANGER slots.

The best way to abuse it is Mystic Ranger, but we're not using that here. :smallamused:

[herrhauptmann]

It says nothing about whether they're cast as arcane or divine spells, and since spells cast by a Paladin are divine by default these spells would also be cast as divine spells.

I ask because Sublime Chord requires your spells to be arcane for entry. If you're just casting divine wizard spells, you can't enter into SC, even with harmonious knight.

[gbprime]

I ask because Sublime Chord requires your spells to be arcane for entry. If you're just casting divine wizard spells, you can't enter into SC, even with harmonious knight.

The feat states that you may use Paladin or Ranger slots to prepare and cast Wizard spells as a wizard, using your INT stat for everything. That implies (but does not explicitly state) the spells are Arcane.

[herrhauptmann]

So this becomes "Ask your DM" again?
In this case, the answer will probably be 'no'.

[gbprime]

So this becomes "Ask your DM" again?
In this case, the answer will probably be 'no'.

"Ask the DM" is always the best way to go. Your milage may vary, offer expires while you wait. :smallwink:

[Tvtyrant]

I would argue that the interpretation for RAW is about 50/50 on my suggestion, but if you add a single wizard level it would be 100% in favor.