Jack of all Bards

[Tvtyrant]

I want to make a Bard that has its stats in Charisma, Intelligence and Con using Snowflake Wardance, Knowledge Devotion, Jack of all Trades and Bardic Knack. The goal is to have a lot of skill points to put into important areas and be able to still fight.

I want to know what else I would need to be effective as a caster, skill monkey and combat character without losing stat points in Int and Cha. I was thinking Words of Creation to help buff people.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Bardic Knack ACF from PHBII trades Bardic Knowledge so that you always have Bard level/2 ranks in all skills (effectivly). So you can focus on a few skills and still be decent at all others thanks to Jack of all Trade.

[Tvtyrant]

Bardic Knack ACF from PHBII trades Bardic Knowledge so that you always have Bard level/2 ranks in all skills (effectivly). So you can focus on a few skills and still be decent at all others thanks to Jack of all Trade.

Very true! Do you think haunting melody would work well for a debuff?

[mootoall]

Don't forget Nymph's Kiss, if you're going the Exalted route with Words of Creation. That extra skill point per level is another skill you can max per level, while the bonus to Cha checks keeps you a great face, all for the cost of one feat. From there, Song of the Heart to give you a +1 to your Bardic Music (works best depending on when you double your bardic music for Words of Creation), Dragonfire Inspiration (be a Silverbrow Human?) to turn each of your +1 attack/damage into +~3.5 damage, and a dip into Warblade or Crusader so that you can take Song of the White Raven, giving you your bardic music as a swift action. Once you do that, you can be a melee machine.

Add in the Harmonizing weapon enhancement for extra fun times.

[Tvtyrant]

Interesting. I was thinking maybe go nonviolence and swap most of my music forms out for debuffs, but you have a better plan. Wouldn't Dragonfire Inspiration be worthless in later levels when everything is immune to fire?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Very true! Do you think haunting melody would work well for a debuff?

I'm not familiar with it, where can I find it?


Don't forget Nymph's Kiss, if you're going the Exalted route with Words of Creation. That extra skill point per level is another skill you can max per level, while the bonus to Cha checks keeps you a great face, all for the cost of one feat. From there, Song of the Heart to give you a +1 to your Bardic Music (works best depending on when you double your bardic music for Words of Creation), Dragonfire Inspiration (be a Silverbrow Human?) to turn each of your +1 attack/damage into +~3.5 damage, and a dip into Warblade or Crusader so that you can take Song of the White Raven, giving you your bardic music as a swift action. Once you do that, you can be a melee machine.

Add in the Harmonizing weapon enhancement for extra fun times.

Minor nitpick, Nymph's kiss won't be x4'ed at first level so you can max-3 any class skill ontop of your 6+int maxed skills.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm not familiar with it, where can I find it?



Minor nitpick, Nymph's kiss won't be x4'ed at first level so you can max-3 any class skill ontop of your 6+int maxed skills.

Heroes of Horror.

Why does BoEDs work so well with Bards?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Heroes of Horror.

Why does BoEDs work so well with Bards?

Angelic voices, they are VERY inspiring.

EDIT: having looked at Haunting Melody, it is useful but has the issue of being [Fear, Mind-Effecting] so mindless creatures and anything with fear immunity will laugh in your face. If you can find a way to stack conditions (shaken=>frightened=>panicked) it can become pretty effective.

Pros: 1 BM=will or shaken for # of ranks rounds. Possibility of fear stacking (check DM if repeated uses up the 'fear factor.' Even without fear stacking, -2 to a lot of things is a useful debuff. Save scales fairly well too.

Cons: pretty easy to gain immunity. Will negates.

[mootoall]

Interesting. I was thinking maybe go nonviolence and swap most of my music forms out for debuffs, but you have a better plan. Wouldn't Dragonfire Inspiration be worthless in later levels when everything is immune to fire?

Well, it would take DM permissiveness, but asking for a Searing Song-equivalent feat would make that less of an issue. But even if that's not allowed, retraining it later into something that isn't useless still leaves you with a very optimized Inspire Courage, which is nothing to sneeze at. Remember, it's great for buffing chargers, since static damage is multiplied on a charge with Leap Attack, etc.

Remember to get a Bade of Courage and Vest of Legends, and get Inspiration Boost as a spell known.



Minor nitpick, Nymph's kiss won't be x4'ed at first level so you can max-3 any class skill ontop of your 6+int maxed skills.

Touche, good sir.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Interesting. I was thinking maybe go nonviolence and swap most of my music forms out for debuffs, but you have a better plan. Wouldn't Dragonfire Inspiration be worthless in later levels when everything is immune to fire?

A debuffer bard is rather quirky but something I'd be interested in. If you forgo trying to be directly effective in combat, you can focus more on other areas, like de/buffing.

As for Dragonfire Inspiration, ask your DM if you can take an alternative feat like Dragonice Inspiration or Dragonlightning Inspiration. Just pick your poison elemental type. Though I'd avoid asking for Force or Sonic. Those would shut that idea down quickly.

[Tvtyrant]

A debuffer bard is rather quirky but something I'd be interested in. If you forgo trying to be directly effective in combat, you can focus more on other areas, like de/buffing.

As for Dragonfire Inspiration, ask your DM if you can take an alternative feat like Dragonice Inspiration or Dragonlightning Inspiration. Just pick your poison elemental type. Though I'd avoid asking for Force or Sonic. Those would shut that idea down quickly.

Acid would be my preference; then you can use it on objects!

For debuffing bard there is: Sound of Silence (silences enemies), Haunting Melody (leaves them shaken), Lingering Song, Vow of Nonviolence and Dragonsong to get really high song DCs.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Like to show you this excellent Bard remake class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201346)my Neoseraphi. It doesn't have casting but see if you can adapt it into a PrC or take some of the debuff options into feats. I personally like the Song of Swiftness and Hesitation. I could see it as a 9th or 12th level feat. Something like Song of Speed. Gain both of those BM uses.

[Gwendol]

I suggest swapping countersong out for spellbreaker song (gives casters within 30' a 20% ACF).

[Tvtyrant]

I suggest swapping countersong out for spellbreaker song (gives casters within 30' a 20% ACF).

This is a good idea; I was thinking about also going into Sublime Chord at level 10 for more song types to use and better casting. I would go into Seeker of the Song but it would kill my casting progression :C

[Morph Bark]

Minor nitpick, Nymph's kiss won't be x4'ed at first level so you can max-3 any class skill ontop of your 6+int maxed skills.

Wait, does it say so specifically in the feat description? All I remember from the skill points from Nymph's Kiss is that you get 1 extra starting at the level you take it. That combined with the fact skill points are x4 for level 1, period, would suggest it does get x4'ed, unless it states in the feat that it doesn't.

[Coidzor]

Interesting. I was thinking maybe go nonviolence and swap most of my music forms out for debuffs, but you have a better plan. Wouldn't Dragonfire Inspiration be worthless in later levels when everything is immune to fire?

That's why you arrange to be descended from sonic dragons. Like Pyroclastic Dragons (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0). Then it's basically only Slaad that are immune to your DFI. And even then, still got regular inspire courage to play with, so you can pick between the two as the situation warrants.


Very true! Do you think haunting melody would work well for a debuff?

Fairly good against anything it works against, and offers synergy with other fear effects, either something effecting a larger area and longer term or something shorter term that effects only a single target. Since your ranks in perform are going to be greater than the number of rounds in an encounter before too long. Best of all, you can use it while using Inspire Courage for a double whammy.

So, a barbarian with Never Outnumbered that intimidates a number of the enemy as a move action thanks to the fearsome armor property is going to bump them to frightened, so those who failed their will save are going to flee, leaving those who didn't flee to be chopped down. Which gives some battlefield control without relying upon the wizard to do it all.

Fear's a good trick, (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0)but only works on a band of foes that narrows as one goes up in level.

[faceroll]

Requiem, from Libris Mortis, lets your bardic music affect undead. Play a song so sad that even the dead weep.

[edit]
Whoa, bardic knack + jack of all trades = max ranks-2 in all skills. Hot damn, that's a cool trick. Who needs skill points?

[Gwendol]

Here's a good discussion on how and why it works:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184574

[Coidzor]

Whoa, bardic knack + jack of all trades = max ranks-2 in all skills. Hot damn, that's a cool trick. Who needs skill points?

Wait. Max ranks - 2? Not max cross-class ranks? :smallconfused:

[faceroll]

Wait. Max ranks - 2? Not max cross-class ranks? :smallconfused:

I kept reading that as "half ranks" not "1/2 rank". Not that that would work, anyway. Never mind, not cool at all.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I kept reading that as "half ranks" not "1/2 rank". Not that that would work, anyway. Never mind, not cool at all.

Bard level/2 ranks in all skills is pretty awesome still. EDIT: Ignoring the issue of Jack of All Trades interacting with Bardick Knack and trained only skills, you will always have ranks in everything so you can focus your skill points a lot more to things that need them. For every 2 Bard levels, your virtual ranks go up by 1. A 10th level Bard would gain all synergy bonuses because all his skills have 5 (virtual) ranks.


Wait, does it say so specifically in the feat description? All I remember from the skill points from Nymph's Kiss is that you get 1 extra starting at the level you take it. That combined with the fact skill points are x4 for level 1, period, would suggest it does get x4'ed, unless it states in the feat that it doesn't.

It specifically excludes the idea of x4 at first level. Human's extra skill points specifically say "x4 at first level" as do all base classes except Swordsage. :smalltongue: Since Nymph's Kiss does not include that clause, it does not get x4 if taken at first level. But I would say it would be a decent house rule.

[Coidzor]

I kept reading that as "half ranks" not "1/2 rank". Not that that would work, anyway. Never mind, not cool at all.

Darn. I'd thought for a second you'd noticed some way to make the bonus relevant to anything other than chump checks before 20th level. :smallannoyed:

[Tvtyrant]

It seems like Bards get a lot of upgrades outside of core; is that the attempt to overcome the "pansy bard" image?

[MesiDoomstalker]

It seems like Bards get a lot of upgrades outside of core; is that the attempt to overcome the "pansy bard" image?

I'm assuming making them more durable and/or intimidating, none that I can think of. But if you RP well, you can easily get past the pansy bard image. Especially if your a debuffer, just gloat about how pathetic your enemies become. Or use gruesome lyrics for your songs.

[faceroll]

All the core classes get a lot of buffs outside of core. It's power creep.

[Coidzor]

That, and because Bards intersect with a lot of different spheres there's a lot of material that fits thematically to bend them into one or around several.