artificer: omg

[limejuicepowder]

ok I'm beginning to see the power of the artificer, and tier 1 in general.

I'm designing a boss fight for my party of 5th level characters: a crusader, a cleric, and a factotum. I'm adding a thug fighter 3/swashbuckler 3 NPC to round out the party. The boss fight will be a crusader 2/knight 4 tank minion guy and an artifcer 7 boss.

I hope I didn't just set the party up for TPK.

right off bat, enlarge cast on the tank means he has almost complete battlefield control with a spiked chain. delaying the party by even 2 rounds means 8 castings of a level 5 magic missle from the articer's wand (twin and quicken spell): that's 32d4+32 automatic damage.

even if they manage to get to the boss, his infused armor of etherealness means they have virutally no chance of killing him.

what do y'all think, should I downgrade these guys or what?

[Aegis013]

If you think they'll be too powerful, downgrade them or add a plot macguffin or other manner of bolstering the party's power.

Otherwise, make it obvious that this will be a very deadly fight (the bones of 50 previous GROUPS of adventurers lie scattered about in front of the door, many broken and shattered as if hit by a powerful force [giving clues about what they might be up against]. The ones not yet rotted away still show signs of puncture wounds, and one seems to have had his neck compressed into a very small area... etc etc)

That's your call in the end, however.

[Malachei]

If you feel this will kill your PCs, why do you optimize the artificer and his minions? Your artificer will be burning through his equipment rather quickly, IIRC one additional charge per metamagic spell level modifier -- why not give him a somewhat slower damage output?

Are your players heavily optimized and / or experienced? Then, even with the artificer's fast output, the action economy will eventually be in their favor. They would probably need to quickly block line of sight (various wall / cloud spells), get Shield up or Minor Globe and target the artificer's weak saves with spells.

[limejuicepowder]

i didn't even mean to "optimize" the artificer: this is actaully my first time making one, so I just opened up the DMG and gave him some wands that looked good, along with the metamagic feats (i did glance at the artificer handbook though). only then did i realize how dangerous that guy was.

anyways, i think I'm going to downgrade his wands, at least the one of magic missle. give him something besides twin and quicken too xD.

[Dead_Jester]

Well, first of all, you pretty much gave him one of the best low level wand combo (at least you didn't add fell drain to the mix) and you gave it to an npc who doesn't care about wasting charges (you are using 9 charges for the first shot, and 5 for the second one, and 6 for a wand in another hand). Each round of firing costs him 1050gp and 42xp if he doesn't have cost reducers, and he burns through his wands in 5 rounds if he alternates the main hand.

Note that you can only use quicken once if you are using 2 wands (its a full round action), and that the use of more than 1 metamagic feat per casting with metamagic spell trigger is ambiguous at best, so you are only getting 5 or 6 casts per round.

Second, you gave him a meat shield with the express purpose of stopping a melee centric party from engaging him. If the minion has combat reflexes and improved trip, your party may not even be able to approach the guy (the minion has more Bab and probably more strength than most of your party, and gets +4 for improved trip).

Unless your party has a couple of scrolls/items of shield (which is only an arcane spell, so they would need to UMD it or get permanent magic items of it), than they are pretty much dead.

[ClothedInVelvet]

What's your point?

There's a risk, sure. But at level 5, the cleric has access to animate dead and could send a few minions to take the crusader's AoOs before the party moves. And that's something that the cleric could get ready before the battle even begins.

If they know this is a boss battle, they should be prepared for it. And I wouldn't feel bad if they're not. They'll learn and they'll be better the next time. Yes, using ridiculous amounts of resources isn't for everyone, but it's unlikely that the BBEG got to be the BBEG by holding back when attacked by decent groups.

[Diarmuid]

Unless it's an evil party, the cleric is likely not going around raising undead minions.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Unless it's an evil party, the cleric is likely not going around raising undead minions.

I've created good cleric characters who raised undead minions. This forum has already hosted plenty of debates over whether or not that is an absolutely evil act, but I would contend that only some settings, backstories, and DMs actually forbid good PCs from raising undead minions.

[Dead_Jester]

My point is that, unless your party knows that they will be facing a boss fight and the approximate composition of said fight, than they will get murdered if you play the BBEG correctly.

The thing is, your group, because it is lacking an arcane caster, loses a lot of it's information gathering capabilities and loses a lot of spells that could come in handy (shield, invisibility, blur, SoS, etc). The party, as it stands right now, probably doesn't have a lot of ranged capabilities, and so can't really engage the artificer directly. Changing the NPC to a ranged build (a simple swift hunter ranger could do the trick) could give them better odds.

Also, depending on where the battle is taking place, and your cleric's beliefs, it might not be appropriate to carry around half a dozen undead (plus he would need obsidian, which he might not have), and unless he finds good monsters to animate, they won't even pose a threat to the crusader.

In the end, it's really up to you, but if you want to keep the BBEG the way he is, than at least don't let your players blindly stumble on him. Also, this fight is much easier if your players can get the drop on the BBEG, so giving them that option could help even out the odds.

EDIT: IMO, raising the dead (especially animate dead) isn't evil by any means. Its recycling of dead matter, and the undead are mindless, so it's really a question of intent behind the reanimation (creating wights and/or shadows to create an undead apocalypse is probably evil, but animating a dead hydra to protect an orphanage from rampaging demons is probably a good action)

[Tokuhara]

I've created good cleric characters who raised undead minions. This forum has already hosted plenty of debates over whether or not that is an absolutely evil act, but I would contend that only some settings, backstories, and DMs actually forbid good PCs from raising undead minions.

IMO, Undead raising is all about intentions:

I once played a LN Dread Necromancer who was once a farmer. His daughter died of a mysterious and magic plague and he wanted to find a way to bring her back. Unable to afford a cleric to revive her, he turned to necromancy. He raised his daughter as a slaymate and now searches for a way to become undead himself so he can live out eternity with his daughter.

[ClothedInVelvet]

My point is that, unless your party knows that they will be facing a boss fight and the approximate composition of said fight, than they will get murdered if you play the BBEG correctly.

Agreed. But how much they know has something to do with the campaign. And people who wander around places that could be BBEG lairs without protection deserve to get messed with.

"Guys, it's a dark and sinister mansion with a single light on in the upstairs room! Let's check it out!"


In the end, it's really up to you, but if you want to keep the BBEG the way he is, than at least don't let your players blindly stumble on him. Also, this fight is much easier if your players can get the drop on the BBEG, so giving them that option could help even out the odds.

Right. This situation could easily be used to screw the players. But if they play well and you play fairly, I wouldn't be too worried about giving it to them.

[Big Fau]

First of all, you've got 3 players, two of which are Tier 3, and the third being a Cleric.

What are their playstyles? What focus does the Crusader have (Devoted Spirit, White Raven, or Stone Dragon)? Is the Factotum using iaijutsu Focus, or has he been using long-term spells like Alter Self? Is the Cleric a Healbot, Gish, or other build?

Secondly, the Artificer is widely regarded as the lynchpin of Tier 1. In terms of sheer power, it's unstoppable by anything that can't hit Tier 0 (StP Erudite, Planar Shepherd, Shadowcraft Mage or Incanatrix). Properly built (as your BBEG shows), the class has the firepower to TPK easily.

Third, the CR for this encounter is far higher than you estimate. Both enemies have been optimized beyond the standard formula, and as such, the encounter should be treated as an EL 10 fight. The solution is to remove the Knight levels from the Crusader, or to switch his weapon out from a Spiked Chain to something less abusable.

If you don't wish to change the enemies themselves, change the terrain. Put the encounter in a wider room, and give the party several paths to avoid the Crusader/Knight.

There is another way for the party to bypass the Crusader, but that requires the Cleric to have Reduce Person or ready access to Dispel Magic.

[Psyren]

i didn't even mean to "optimize" the artificer: this is actaully my first time making one, so I just opened up the DMG and gave him some wands that looked good, along with the metamagic feats (i did glance at the artificer handbook though). only then did i realize how dangerous that guy was.

For everyone wondering why the Tier system exists: this, right here? This is why.

[Vemynal]

IMO, Undead raising is all about intentions:

I once played a LN Dread Necromancer who was once a farmer. His daughter died of a mysterious and magic plague and he wanted to find a way to bring her back. Unable to afford a cleric to revive her, he turned to necromancy. He raised his daughter as a slaymate and now searches for a way to become undead himself so he can live out eternity with his daughter.

What does it say about me that I think your story is really sweet and touching? >_>

Yes, the Artificer is an incredibly powerful class. From the sound of things the party is going to wipe.

[Tokuhara]

What does it say about me that I think your story is really sweet and touching? >_>

The DM hated it. He said, "Logically, I shouldn't be adventuring." I told him I was looking for a "Cure for Mortality." He eventually just gave me Necropolitan so I couldn't play him anymore.

[Psyren]

Your DM sort of has a point though; such a character wouldn't want to leave his daughter alone, and he wouldn't want to put her in danger by adventuring with her either. Thus he'd be trying to research what he needs in a fixed location where he can watch her, possibly luring test subjects to him in the process. That's a fantastic story for a BBEG, but less so for a PC.

[Tokuhara]

Your DM sort of has a point though; such a character wouldn't want to leave his daughter alone, and he wouldn't want to put her in danger by adventuring with her either. Thus he'd be trying to research what he needs in a fixed location where he can watch her, possibly luring test subjects to him in the process. That's a fantastic story for a BBEG, but less so for a PC.

My daughter was my Cohort. He lasted 2 sessions

[Inferno]

For everyone wondering why the Tier system exists: this, right here? This is why.

Because anyone who has read half the Artificers class description will notice: Artificers are good at making, using and applying metamagic to wands...better take 1-2 of the best metamagic feats, just to be safe.
And anyone would have half optimized the class, in their sleep.
The same issue is seen in druids, just grab natural spell and no matter your choices afterwards, you will always be better than the best fighter.

As for your encounter balance I would stay away from metamagic wand blasting. You could probably still dual wand blast if you like the image it'll give your players but stacking metamagic will likely kill at the very least 1-2 of them.

Personally, I would give the Artificer a longbow or crossbow with bane(some PC race) infusioned onto it, some decent armor and a fistful of Iron defenders. That way, if the PC's recognize the Artificer as the main threat and drop him early you aren't diving them as many arcane wands of little use to them.

[Psyren]

My daughter was my Cohort.

Right, which would almost certainly put her in a lot of danger even with her abilities (and yours.)

[Tokuhara]

Right, which would almost certainly put her in a lot of danger even with her abilities (and yours.)

His daughter told him she wanted to go with him. The way he saw it was that she would be safer with him than alone in their cottage

[nedz]

Well at least the BBEG is not using battlefield control - so they can simply run away, ..., if it weren't for the Crusader that is.

So this is probably a TPK in 2-3 rounds.

You could consider making him more subtle - rather than simple killing the PCs you could have him spam debuffs or mess with their minds. Both of these could give him a much more evil demenour (as he inflicts suffering rather then death), and extend the combat. This would give you more opportunities to practice your evil laughter.
Eventually the PCs, debuffed into near oblivion, would be forced to withdraw. This would be a good opportunity for a persuit by what would be otherwise useless minions (say CR1) to complete the rout.

[Diarmuid]

IMO, Undead raising is all about intentions:

I once played a LN Dread Necromancer who was once a farmer. His daughter died of a mysterious and magic plague and he wanted to find a way to bring her back. Unable to afford a cleric to revive her, he turned to necromancy. He raised his daughter as a slaymate and now searches for a way to become undead himself so he can live out eternity with his daughter.

I guess that it's all in the interpretation. To me, that smacks of the worst kind of seflishness and would likely classify that specific line of thinking as nuetral evil.

"I cant/wont deal with the pain of losing her so I'll rob her of a beautiful afterlife with the gods and then find a way to cheat death myself to perpetuate this affont against nature and the gods."

[Dead_Jester]

I guess that it's all in the interpretation. To me, that smacks of the worst kind of seflishness and would likely classify that specific line of thinking as nuetral evil.

"I cant/wont deal with the pain of losing her so I'll rob her of a beautiful afterlife with the gods and then find a way to cheat death myself to perpetuate this affont against nature and the gods."

Actually, creating a slaymate does not, in any way, bind the soul of the body used. As such, this act is entirely neutral, if a little selfish.

But back to the topic at hand. I see a lot of people commenting on how this encounter will be a TPK (and I have to agree that as it stands, it is quite probable that it will end that way), but what about finding ways to even the odds a bit more?

As a Dm, if you are set on your selection of enemies for the fight, there are multitudes of ways you could help your players a bit, all while making the encounter even more memorable. For example, you could leave clues as to the nature of the opponent, things savvy characters (and players) may recognize as belonging to an artificier, such a lab filled with half built machinery (bonus points if it animates and starts fighting the PCs) and magic items, or rumors about men being slain by multitudes of bright lights. You could build the area where the confrontation will take place in such a way as to make it possible for the PCs to use the environment to their advantage. The enemy being an artificer means you can use all the classical mad scientist lab elements, or make you own.

In the end, if you want to give your players a bit of an edge (and make them work for it), it's all about making the fight more unique, and giving your players more options so they can fight more or less on their own terms (of course, if the BBEG gets wind of the PCs actions, then you can't blame him for taking advantage of that).

[Tokuhara]

I guess that it's all in the interpretation. To me, that smacks of the worst kind of seflishness and would likely classify that specific line of thinking as nuetral evil.

"I cant/wont deal with the pain of losing her so I'll rob her of a beautiful afterlife with the gods and then find a way to cheat death myself to perpetuate this affont against nature and the gods."

He felt that the Gods stole his daughter from him, so he thought he'd return the favor.

[Diarmuid]

He felt that the Gods stole his daughter from him, so he thought he'd return the favor.

This still doesnt come across as any less selfish.

[Diefje]

Does it matter? As long as the PC thinks it's a good and reasonable idea, he can do what he wants. Besides, we all know that the majority of "background stories" are just silly and most don't have any sway over the story anyway. The present and future are way more important than the past (especially the past before the table).


Make sure the party knows who the REAL threat is beforehand. If they don't do anything with it, maybe they should suffer some losses. Loss is part of the game, they'll be fine.

[Ernir]

I'd skip the etherealness, and just see how it goes. Drop some hints about the Artificer guy being a serious badass beforehand if you want to make it seem like a direct assault is a bad idea.

The main thing I'd worry about, as previously said, is the lack of a PC arcane caster. There's no one to even out the field by opening up with a Stinking Cloud or something.

If the Crusader/Knight minion guy is on the same general optimization level as the PCs, it's not like he's going to be an impenetrable barrier.

[Seharvepernfan]

I don't know the rules on it, but are you sure a 7th level artificer can get etherealness?

Also, it really sounds like they need about one round of spell turning...