Arcane Persistent Spell

[Yorae]

I've seen tons of great guide on how to use Persistent spell for fun and profit for divine casters (divine power, holy star, mass lesser vigor, etc), but I've found surprisingly little about good ARCANE spells to use for this purpose.

So, what is an enterprising wizard to do, should he want to capitalize on this feat? (Assume some type of metamagic reducers are in play)

[Keld Denar]

Cloud of Knives is a great 2nd level spell. Persisted, its 8. Its even better if you have a source of bonus damage like Sneak Attack. Speaking of SA, if you are an Unseen Seer, you can Persist Hunter's Eye. I have an Illumian build that uses NaenHoon to "DMM" Persist 2 spells. When I get all the spells I want, he'll have Greater Mirror Image and Greater Blinking persisted. That'll make him REALLY hard to kill.

[Piggy Knowles]

Persistent Wraithstrike is a perennial favorite for gish-types.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Divine Metamagic reducers: Little variety but extremly easy to use (DMM).Works very well for high cost metamagics (Quiken, Persist).

Arcane Metamagic reducers: Plentiful, easy to gain. Individually minimal reduction and usually has a lower limit and thus not very useful for high cost metamagic (Persist especially).

Simply put, Divine reducers work better with higher cost such as Persist while Arcane is better for stacking smaller ones together.

That being said, I personally think Persist should be a +5 or +4 adjustment. Without metamagic reducers, its almost unplayable.

[gbprime]

That being said, I personally think Persist should be a +5 or +4 adjustment. Without metamagic reducers, its almost unplayable.

And WITH them, it can be cheese incarnate. Whatcha gonna do? :smallcool:

[Randomguy]

I think it's only DMM that has the real cheese: DMM persist can haste you the entire day, turn all your attacks into touch attacks for the day or give you 4 arms to the day, which is about as powerful as most lvl 8 and 9 spells. DMM persisting shapechange or dragonshape is when things get out of hand.

An arcane caster can take one level in sacred exorcist and use DMM persist, but that's mainly for charisma based casters. Other casters can take levels in Incantrix. Ultimate Magus can also help with metamagic-ing some spells.

[Lateral]

An arcane caster can take one level in sacred exorcist and use DMM persist, but that's mainly for charisma based casters. Other casters can take levels in Incantrix. Ultimate Magus can also help with metamagic-ing some spells.

DMM only applies to divine spells, unfortunately. However, as Keld mentioned above, an Illumian with the Naenhoon sigil can do the same thing 2/day- except there's nothing restricting it to divine spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Incantatrix can use its Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect abilities to add Persistent Spell to his spells X/day by making a Spellcraft check. You can take ten on the check, but you'll still need a custom item that grants a +30 Competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to persist 9th level spells at level 17. That's 2(3+Int mod) spells per day that you can persist for no additional cost, which is probably better off than a Cleric with a pile of Nightsticks.

Persistent Cloud of Knives works best when cast multiple times each day (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197237#20), with Fell Drain.

[Bakkan]

One of the more powerful spells to persist I've seen is Friendly Fire from Elder Evils. It is a Personal range, has either an instantaneous or 1 round duration, depending on the amount of time you spend casting it, and while it's active, all ranged attacks directed at you are redirected at a target within 30 feet of your choice. The spell doesn't even specify that it takes an action to redirect the attack. It's a 4th-level spell, so you need metamagic reducers/replacements to get it Persisted pre-epic. Ultimate Magus can get it by 12th by sacrificing a 6th-level slot on the prepared side to cast it from the spontaneous side, though you could probably do it faster by adding other metamagic reducers on there. Note that is pactual play, some DMs may take issue with a single spell negating a huge class of attacks (all ranged attacks, including orbs and rays), especially if you're flying and have some form of immediate-action movement such as abrupt jaunt or another way to avoid melee attacks.

[Tvtyrant]

Interestingly, you could use DMM Persist on wizard spells through a Paladin by using Sword of the Arcane Order and its Turn Undead ability. The spells are arguably treated as divine, so you can use DMM.

[Randomguy]

DMM only applies to divine spells, unfortunately. However, as Keld mentioned above, an Illumian with the Naenhoon sigil can do the same thing 2/day- except there's nothing restricting it to divine spells.

In the description of the feat, it says you can use it to make some of your divine spells more powerful, but in the benefit part it says you can use it to apply a metamagic feat to "spells that you know", but I'm not sure which part overrides the other.

If it use only for divine spells, you can take levels in geomancer to be able to cast some of your arcane spells as divine spells, and use DMM on them.

[Urpriest]

In the description of the feat, it says you can use it to make some of your divine spells more powerful, but in the benefit part it says you can use it to apply a metamagic feat to "spells that you know", but I'm not sure which part overrides the other.

If it use only for divine spells, you can take levels in geomancer to be able to cast some of your arcane spells as divine spells, and use DMM on them.

The errata makes it explicit.

[NeoSeraphi]

Interestingly, you could use DMM Persist on wizard spells through a Paladin by using Sword of the Arcane Order and its Turn Undead ability. The spells are arguably treated as divine, so you can use DMM.

Alright, so that requires you to be a Knight of Mystic Fire, worship Myshra, and take 4 feats (Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Sword of the Arcane Order, Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell)

It also means that your first two feats are completely useless to you until at least 9th level, and then you can't take Extra Turning until 12th level. (So unless you have at least 18 Charisma you won't even get one use out of it, and even if you do, you won't get more than one use out of it per day)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In the description of the feat, it says you can use it to make some of your divine spells more powerful, but in the benefit part it says you can use it to apply a metamagic feat to "spells that you know", but I'm not sure which part overrides the other.

If it use only for divine spells, you can take levels in geomancer to be able to cast some of your arcane spells as divine spells, and use DMM on them.

Page 80: Divine Metamagic feat
The boldface text needs to be added to the Benefit
paragraph of the feat description:
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that
you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat.
As a free action, you can take the energy from turning
or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat
to divine spells that you know. . . . (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)

[Doug Lampert]

And WITH them, it can be cheese incarnate. Whatcha gonna do? :smallcool:

If you're rebuilding the system? Eliminate all metamagic reducers and price metamagic appropriately (about 1 level lower for most things, maybe a -5 for persist). If metamagic costs are appropriate then a metamagic reducer is every bit as unballanced as a slot reducer.

Most of the +1 metamagic isn't overpowered if treated as +0, the feat cost is a real cost. Similarly with no reducers +1 for empower is a good but not overwhelming option. Maximize for +2? Most people won't think that's worth a feat without reducers. Quicken for +3, very very good, but not a campaign killer by any means.

[Treblain]

The feat cost for metamagic feats is not a sufficient cost, because metamagic feats are the best feats for casters and they have feat slots available. Feats are precious to other classes, but casters don't need them all for other things.

What would balance metamagic is making metamagic available only to non-full casters. You could only cast metamagic by taking a prestige class that didn't fully progress your casting.

[Tvtyrant]

Alright, so that requires you to be a Knight of Mystic Fire, worship Myshra, and take 4 feats (Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Sword of the Arcane Order, Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell)

It also means that your first two feats are completely useless to you until at least 9th level, and then you can't take Extra Turning until 12th level. (So unless you have at least 18 Charisma you won't even get one use out of it, and even if you do, you won't get more than one use out of it per day)

I never said it was a good option, just that there was a way to do it. :P

[Yorae]

Just stumbled across one I had forgotten that fits the bill very well:

Ruin Delver's Fortune (SpC)

[Doug Lampert]

The feat cost for metamagic feats is not a sufficient cost, because metamagic feats are the best feats for casters and they have feat slots available. Feats are precious to other classes, but casters don't need them all for other things.

What would balance metamagic is making metamagic available only to non-full casters. You could only cast metamagic by taking a prestige class that didn't fully progress your casting.

If you're replying to me then I think you're wrong, none of the core +1 metamagic is worth more than a feat. And casters have a VASTLY better use for feats, they have crafting.

Requiring a non-full progression class is a crap ballance fix if you don't remove the reducers. Metamagic abusing characters will still work fine if down one caster level.

Metamagic was slightly overpriced to start with, and then they added reducers to try to "fix" that without noticing that all the little reducers for arcanists stack or that the one big reducer for divine casters produced monsters with Persist. The fix is to fix the pricing and then also fix remove the reducers.

To repeat: If metamagic is appropriately priced then a metamagic reducer is as overpowered as a slot reducer. The basic problem was that they overpriced the core metamagic and then rather than reducing the cost they introduced metamagic rods (in 3.5) and then added on swift metamagic, divine metamagic, and gobs of reducers.

Fix the basic problem, which is that core +1 metamagic isn't that good and the core +2 and +3 are really only worth +1 or +2.

DougL

[Treblain]

Is Ruin Delver's Fortune really persistable? If so, that's another way to get around the Evasion requirement for Fochlucan Lyrist or other classes.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Is Ruin Delver's Fortune really persistable? If so, that's another way to get around the Evasion requirement for Fochlucan Lyrist or other classes.Assuming it works, that means you're one targeted dispel magic away from being useless for a while. Then again, persistomancers tend to jack up their buff CL. If I really wanted to go into FL, I'd maybe use it to qualify and then get a ring of evasion as quickly as possible.

Also, I'd never seen that Friendly Fire spell before. That's just plain ridiculous. Goodbye, Ray Deflection!

Other general purpose spells to persist, some of which have already been mentioned:Greater Mirror Image
Greater Invisibility
Greater Blink
Fell Drain Cloud of Knives (add on Invisible Spell for style points)
Swift Fly
Lord of the Sky isn't the best spell to persist, but it's stylish and situationally quite good.
Battlemagic Perception
See Invisibility
Spells to slap Ocular onto and then Persist:True Seeing
Freezing Glance
Ironguard
Buncha others, forgot
Gish spells to persist:Bladeweave
Bite of the Were-X
Draconic Polymorph
Wraithstrike