I want to be: A Dragon!

[zoobob9]

I was talking with a friend of mine, and we thought "could someone play the group members' pet dragon?" I looked through the draconomicon and races of dragon briefly, and from what I saw, they had little to do with playing a dragon. Other races like the Dragonborn of Bahumat aren't really what were looking for, but rather...well, a dragon.

Long story short: is there a way someone can play a character who:

Is a dragon
Has no character classes
Can still progress like normal PCs
May eventually become a more powerful dragon (instead of hatchling) at higher/epic levels


We'd need DM approval, of course, but do you guys think its a good idea?

[Tvtyrant]

I would suggest progressing by HD, and than evolving an age category when your HD reaches the same point as that category. So a Copper Dragon would become an adult at the same time as the party reaches level 20, and a Mature Adult into epic. This would make you a Tier 3 character, somewhat weaker than a full caster but able to do a lot of different roles.

[deuxhero]

Ah Bioware writing.


Chesewrought Kobold and Steel Dragon gish are the standard answers, but both use class levels

There were some homebrew monster classes a bit back that did everything you want, but they are homebrew.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I would suggest progressing by HD, and than evolving an age category when your HD reaches the same point as that category. So a Copper Dragon would become an adult at the same time as the party reaches level 20, and a Mature Adult into epic. This would make you a Tier 3 character, somewhat weaker than a full caster but able to do a lot of different roles.

Things it can do well:
Melee: Tons on natural attacks, reach (maybe depends on size), high strength and con and natural armor.
Scout: Blindsense plus tons of skill points and Listen and Spot as clas skills (usually).
Battlefield control: assuming you can choose your feats (and not take the stock feats in the MM entry) grab Combat Reflexes and since you'll be a younger dragon you'll still have a Dex score you can smack anybody trying to move past you. Not to mention metabreath stacking. Oh Pelor the metabreath stacking! :smalleek:
Mobility: high flight movement speeds, never mind maneuverability (though it does hamper it), you'll out maneuver anything without teleporting, another dragon, a speed debuffer, or a speed optimizer.

Things it can do but not well:
Spellcasting: its useful but you'll get it terribly late and be far far behind.
Fitting in: Unless you choose one with alternate form, your going to have issues keeping a low key or fitting into tight spaces in higher levels. Spellcasting can cover this somewhat.

Things it can't do:
Class Features: Anything cool (besides sorcerer spellcasting and fighter feats) from classes are off limits to you since your voluntairly not taking class levels.

I'm sure I missed a few things but if you are in any tier, its really high tier 3, mainly because you do lack a "win" button option.

[Runestar]

Dragon 320 has rules for playing a metallic dragon class from lv1-20. Be warned though, dragons aren't really that strong that for their ECL. Another issue does the same for chromatic dragons, but the number eludes me at the moment. :smallredface:

[MesiDoomstalker]

Idea that I just thought of, why don't try a partial gestalt of some kind?

Like, for every 2 class levels, they gain the benefit of 1 Dragon HD like a Savage Species progression? So bascially, every 6 class levels they go up a age category so by 18th level, they've gone up 3? Not exactly what your looking for since you don't want to take class levels but dragons are sentient and (eventually) highly intelligent. If they are gaining expeirence they have to spend it on levels and can't force age progression, because thats just silly.

[Mystic Muse]

You didn't specifically mention "No homebrew" so I'd like to point out that I have a Silver Dragon and Pyroclastic Dragon Homebrew for players in my signature (Look in the link that says Homebrew). They both go all the way until level twenty. They aren't actually character classes from what it sounds like you'd rather avoid, so they might work.

[gbprime]

Would you like to be tiny?

What about a pseudodragon? 2 racial HD and +3 level adjustment. Just talk the DM into letting you take class levels OR racial HD afterward. And you've got a fine natural attack if you crank up CON and spend a feat or two on the poison DC.

Pseudodragon Beguiler, with a high poison DC. Hmm... It'd need to spend a feat to cast normally, but hmm...

[Essence_of_War]

The Draconomicon gives rules for advancing dragons who have PC class levels through age categories and increased racial hit die, but I don't find these rules particularly compelling unless you can try really hard to stay at 1 (ideally, very low) age category throughout your career. I think you'd be better off just advancing your racial hit die, and say you're a weird dragon variant that ages as it gains experience :smallamused:

See if you can convince your DM to allow some amount of LA buy-off. And moreover, see if you can agree on maybe some custom rules to how this will interact with your LA increasing with racial hit dice. Take a white dragon for example, you start with ECL 5 (LA+2, RHD 3), and you'd be qualified to buy off your first point of LA at ECL 6. Next point would normally be able to be bought off at ECL 9, but at ECL 8 your LA has actually gone up by one point. How would such a thing affect the usual buy-off progression?

The easiest/fastest way to handle this might be to allow you to use the LA buy-off progression only for your initial LA and say "suck it up" for the age category related LA increases.

[Tvtyrant]

Would you like to be tiny?

What about a pseudodragon? 2 racial HD and +3 level adjustment. Just talk the DM into letting you take class levels OR racial HD afterward. And you've got a fine natural attack if you crank up CON and spend a feat or two on the poison DC.

Pseudodragon Beguiler, with a high poison DC. Hmm... It'd need to spend a feat to cast normally, but hmm...

Have it be a Dragonshaman or DFA and it gets casting and a breath weapon!

[Diefje]

As above, I think the biggest problem is how you want to progress. Do you start as a wyrmling, and grow older quickly as you gain "levels"? Do you start as a wyrmling and just become a powerful 20HD wyrmling? Or start as a weak Adult, and slowly "grow into it" (You'll probably want to sit down with your DM and map out which abilities you get when)? Or some age category in between? Some combination of the above?

I don't think any one of those is necessarily better, but it does need to be defined before you start.

[Darrin]

Dragon 320 has rules for playing a metallic dragon class from lv1-20. Be warned though, dragons aren't really that strong that for their ECL. Another issue does the same for chromatic dragons, but the number eludes me at the moment. :smallredface:

Dragon #332 has the chromatic dragons. As I recall... only the gold and silver were all that playable, since they get alternate form rather early, and can wander around as a humanoid. If you take the dragon class levels, then just claim to be a monk, and no one will wonder why your class abilities never do anything to help you or your party.

The easiest way to play a True Dragon is play a Kobold and take the Dragonwrought feat. However... barring the usual Venerable/Epic feat cheese, it plays pretty much the same as any other kobold.

[Keneth]

If you take the dragon class levels, then just claim to be a monk, and no one will wonder why your class abilities never do anything to help you or your party. I lol'd. :smallbiggrin:

More to the point, to effectively play a dragon, you're gonna have to use homebrew. Basically what you want is increase your HD through leveling but not your actual age category, i.e. no size increases and perhaps lacking some of the abilities of elder dragons such as a frightful presence.

[Anxe]

I'd suggest using the rules in the Draconomicon. You can handle the "aging quickly" problem by saying your Dragon was cursed. His lifespan is now the length of an average human. He ages faster, but he'll die soon as well. Additionally, you are adventuring to find a cure for the curse.

[hex0]

I'd also suggest playing a not as cheesy Dragonwrought Kobold. Use the web enhancements and take Kobold Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Kobold Paragon 2/Sorcerer 5/Dragon Mystic 5 etc. Rite of Greater Draconic Passing.

The problem with playing a Dragon is that you don't get spellcasting until a ECL 11-15 or so. :smallannoyed:

[CTrees]

Two things I can see:

-at higher levels, play a sorceror, polymorph into a dragon. Tada, you are a dragon, you have the same spellcasting, you're good to go.

-Port in Synthesist Summoner from Pathfinder, pretend to be a dragon. Your "alternate" (real) form is useful in town, and you become a progressively more powerful dragon as you level up. You can really make it convincing. Alternatively, you could play a regular summoner and simply make your pet a "dragon."

[Runestar]

Dragon #332 has the chromatic dragons. As I recall... only the gold and silver were all that playable, since they get alternate form rather early, and can wander around as a humanoid. If you take the dragon class levels, then just claim to be a monk, and no one will wonder why your class abilities never do anything to help you or your party.

The easiest way to play a True Dragon is play a Kobold and take the Dragonwrought feat. However... barring the usual Venerable/Epic feat cheese, it plays pretty much the same as any other kobold.

The red dragon strikes me as not being too bad as well. It does get 5 attacks at 1st lv after all, and so should remain viable in combat.

Alternate form may or may not be that relevant, if your gameworld is okay with dragons in parties. I played in a monster party once, and our DM just handwaved that aspect away. We could walk everywhere and people would just accept it as normal. :smallbiggrin:

[DeAnno]

Druids have a feat to let them Wild Shape into Dragons, but I believe it requires 12 HD.

In terms of actually playing a dragon, I would strongly advise you not to play one by its ECL, which is in many ways worse than most Tier 5 classes. For example, a Young Gold Dragon is ECL 20 with 14 HD. It lacks reach (large quadruped), and its breath weapon is a paltry 6d10 DC 20. It's only a CR 9 creature!

If playing a dragon, I would recommend advancing by HD as normal and ignoring the (massively incorrect) level adjustment. Even done that way, with 20 HD a Gold Dragon is a Young Adult, just barely Huge and a CR 14. With some party synergy and feat optimization however, it'll probably be roughly comparable to a Tier III-IV party member and fairly durable at least. Basically, the only even slightly eyebrow raising class feature you get is the increased Strength score (+20 at 20 HD), and without real class levels to vector that it really isn't too much of a much.

[DragonBaneDM]

I'd suggest using the rules in the Draconomicon. You can handle the "aging quickly" problem by saying your Dragon was cursed. His lifespan is now the length of an average human. He ages faster, but he'll die soon as well. Additionally, you are adventuring to find a cure for the curse.

I dig this. I dig this so hard. What type of dragon did you want to play, dude?