Limiting Tier 1 casters to sixth level spells.

[Mystic Muse]

I am under no impression that this would entirely solve the problem Casting poses, and there are still several spells that would need to be nerfed or erased from existence. I'm simply wondering if making most casting classes more like the bard would help.

If I were to do this, I would end up changing the classes somewhat too. While spells are nice, it's also nice to have other class features to look Forward to.

[candycorn]

I'd say it would strengthen classes such as the Chameleon.

If you do this, I recommend letting casters have the higher level slots, just not spells above level 6, which allows metamagic to take a bigger role.

[Mystic Muse]

I'd say it would strengthen classes such as the Chameleon. I have no idea what the chameleon is, and if it's such a problem, I'd probably just ban it.



If you do this, I recommend letting casters have the higher level slots, just not spells above level 6, which allows metamagic to take a bigger role.

Good idea. I was worried about Nerfing Metamagic a little too much with this.

[Hirax]

How would you do spell progressions? Same as bard? Or same as wizards etc. are normally, and just chopping the top, so to speak? Theurging becomes very attractive unless you're slowing down the rate at which they acquire higher level spells.

[candycorn]

I have no idea what the chameleon is, and if it's such a problem, I'd probably just ban it.I didn't say it's a problem, just that it's stronger. It's in Races of Destiny, and has the option to get up to 6th level spells, from arcane and divine.

[Hirax]

I didn't say it's a problem, just that it's stronger. It's in Races of Destiny, and has the option to get up to 6th level spells, from arcane and divine.

Worth noting that it can do both simultaneously. So a wizard9/exorcist1/chameleon1/theurge2/chameleon+7 would have 6th level spellcasting from 3 different sources, 2 of them int based, and DMM shenanigans. I wouldn't say banning chameleon is the best option, just have a look at it and think of what you want to do if a player is interested.

[candycorn]

Chameleon has good options, but bear in mind, theurge cannot advance chameleon.

[Hirax]

Chameleon has good options, but bear in mind, theurge cannot advance chameleon.

I don't agree with that interpretation at all.

[Snowbluff]

Sounds like a bad idea. Just saying.

Especially if Sorc, Dread Necro, and Beguiler still got 9th lvl spells.

[Zeta Kai]

Sounds like a bad idea. Just saying.

Especially if Sorc, Dread Necro, and Beguiler still got 9th lvl spells.

I don't see a problem with the DN & the Beguiler getting 9th level spells in this scenario, but the Sorcerer would quickly become the go-to class for those who still want their low-tier shenanigans.

[flumphy]

I've thought of doing this. My plan was to give everyone a bard progression of spells known but make everything at-will, like a warlock. Of course, my motivations for doing this are more my desire for a resource-management-free magic system than improved balance, but I think you'd end up with improved balance anyway, assuming you banned or converted to incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) that which is broken if used infinitely.

[Morph Bark]

If you switch their spell progression to that of a Bard's, spellcasters will be weak for longer at low levels.

If you keep their high-level spells slots, there will be metamagic abuse.

I suggest letting them go up to level 7 spells and progress slightly faster than a Bard.

[candycorn]

I don't agree with that interpretation at all.

Well, it's guaranteed that you can't use chameleon caster levels to qualify for prestige classes.

Second, Chameleon doesn't have the class feature "Spellcasting". That means it is not a spellcasting class, and does not qualify for choosing a level in a spellcasting class.

You can choose an aptitude that gives you spellcasting, but that's not the same thing as being a spellcasting class.

[Hirax]

Second, Chameleon doesn't have the class feature "Spellcasting". That means it is not a spellcasting class, and does not qualify for choosing a level in a spellcasting class.


You're making a distinction where the rules do not.

[flumphy]

Whether you can advance chameleon casting is unclear, but you unambiguously can't use it to qualify for anything.


You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a
feat, prestige class, or other option.

That's kind of tangential to the point of the thread, though. Even under a level 6 spell cap, the chameleon is hardly broken.

[Hirax]

Oops, cleverly hidden, right at the start of the class features section

/me butters up some crow.

[candycorn]

You're making a distinction where the rules do not.
You are imagining a correlation that the rules don't establish.

Does a Chameleon have the ability to cast spells?

Without further information, we have no way to know. If that chameleon has Combat focus, no.

You do not gain the ability to cast spells by having a feature from the class. You gain the ability to cast spells by using a class feature of the class. That IS a distinction. The class does not directly grant any spellcasting ability. It grants the class ability "Aptitude Focus", which can, under some conditions, grant spellcasting.

Since the class is not granting spellcasting, but rather a class feature can, but only when activated, the class is not a spellcasting class.

A chameleon who does not use aptitude focus cannot cast spells. The class cannot be declared a spellcasting class unless the class grants it.

Your argument makes as much sense as calling cleric a Full BAB class, because it can prepare and cast Divine Power.

[Cicciograna]

I made the same question some time ago, and I too was think that it would be a good idea. Basically what was told to me was to look among PrCs to find interesting class features to add to later levels.

[Morph Bark]

Your argument makes as much sense as calling cleric a Full BAB class, because it can prepare and cast Divine Power.

Actually, for purposes of prerequisites, a level 10 Cleric under the effects of divine power would be eligible for feats and PrCs with a BAB requirement of +10.

Prerequisites don't care how you got it, just that you got it. Considering that all spellcasting PrCs (to my knowledge) require "caster level X" or "ability to cast X level (arcane/divine) spells" and NEVER "spellcasting class ability", if it weren't for the specific clause on Chameleon, it would be eligible for taking spellcasting PrCs.

[Keneth]

Chameleon is not a spellcasting class just like the rogue isn't a spellcasting class even though they can use UMD to cast spells from scrolls.

[candycorn]

Actually, for purposes of prerequisites, a level 10 Cleric under the effects of divine power would be eligible for feats and PrCs with a BAB requirement of +10.

Prerequisites don't care how you got it, just that you got it. Considering that all spellcasting PrCs (to my knowledge) require "caster level X" or "ability to cast X level (arcane/divine) spells" and NEVER "spellcasting class ability", if it weren't for the specific clause on Chameleon, it would be eligible for taking spellcasting PrCs.

Yes, a cleric 10 under the effects of Divine Power could qualify for things that had a requirement of BAB 10. That does not, however, make cleric a Full-BAB class. If an ability required a level in a class that had Full-BAB, and you had a cleric under divine power, you would not qualify. Because while your BAB might equal your character level, your CLASS is not a full-BAB CLASS.

Spellcasting classes are classes which grant spellcasting as a class ability.

Classes which do not grant spellcasting as a class ability are not spellcasting classes.

Chameleon does not grant spellcasting as a class ability.

THEREFORE, Chameleon is not a spellcasting class.

Non-spellcasting classes may not be selected when an ability calls for selection of a spellcasting class.

THEREFORE, Benefits which require the selection of a spellcasting CLASS may not be applied to Chameleon. While a class feature, when used, may provide spellcasting ability, the fact of the matter is, the CLASS does not inherently grant it; therefore, the CLASS is not a spellcasting class. If an ability requires selection of Casting ability, you may use chameleon's casting ability. If it requires selection of a spellcasting CLASS, you may not. Because Chameleon is not a spellcasting CLASS.

So "+1 caster level of an existing spellcasting class" - cannot choose chameleon, even if you qualify in another way.
Practiced Spellcaster says "choose a spellcasting class". Chameleon is not an eligible choice.

[Psyren]

Getting back to topic... there are plenty of broken spells 6 and below you should also be looking at, e.g. Polymorph, Celerity, Nerveskitter, Planar Binding etc.

[Mystic Muse]

Getting back to topic... there are plenty of broken spells 6 and below you should also be looking at, e.g. Polymorph, Celerity, Nerveskitter, Planar Binding etc.

Yes, I'm aware. I don't have the PHB 2, so Celerity isn't a problem.

For some reason I forgot classes like the Sorcerer, favored soul, ETC. Are Tier 2. Those would be nerfed as well. Heck, last night, it was pretty darn late, so I forgot about tier 2 entirely.

As for my current spell ban list, here's what it is.

Alter self, Knock, Explosive runes, Enervation, Cloudkill, Lesser planar binding, Polymorph, Minor creation, magic jar, Antimagic field, Contingency, and major creation no longer exist.

A few of those are personal problems with the spells, not that the spells themselves are actually abusive.

Also, maybe I'm just forgetting what Nerveskitter does, but isn't it only a +5 bonus to initiative? That doesn't seem all that bad.

[skycycle blues]

Knock? What could possibly be the problem with knock?

[Psyren]

What's so bad about the Contingency spell? They can only have one, it requires a macguffin to work, is limited to 1/3rd caster level, and careless players can easily mess up the wording if they try for anything too complex.

[Siosilvar]

Knock? What could possibly be the problem with knock?

Probably because it invalidates the Rogue - except it doesn't really, because it only works on one lock, and locks are a pretty specific circumstance. The effect can be pretty much negated by putting multiple locks in the area or even on the same door.

The only real advantage Knock has over bringing a rogue/factotum/expert along is speed.

I'd be more concerned about Rope Trick at 8th level and above than Knock. Free rest for a single spell slot?

1
I've tossed around the idea of limiting casters to a Bardic progression of spells around a bit. The main problem I had was coming up with interesting class features to foot the bill, but they'd probably still be more than good enough without, so long as they more-or-less kept the same spell lists.

[Midnight_v]

I'm facepalmed that someone who doesn't have all the books or has never heard of the Chameleon comes up with these changes for the system. It makes me wonder what books you DO have access to.
Well, at least you asked what would happen. . .

It imposes a system wide change, unbalanced against the players most likely.
I mean unless you're saying "Magic higher than 6th doesn't exist", if not its
weird to face monsters that cast blashpehmy or summon monster 9, or gate or whatever.
Though... if you want to create duplicate "The Bard" but for wizard, cleric, Druid... that might work.
Also there's also things like you're essentially imposing a -3 to the DC of all the most powerfull targeted spells players can cast.
So at most a caster can cast something that says 10+6+Mod before feats.

Funny thing is I've seen people do this the OPPOSITE way, giving paladins and rangers bard casting was one of the best moves I'd seen for a while for those poor classes.
Seriously, though, all that being said, what are you trying to accomplish with this? Bringing them down to "Tier X" I find that its very stubborn people trying that constantly. If you want a tier X game, do something reasonable like use "Tier" X classes, or get the friends you play with to NOT break the game. Its probably easier than you think.
If its for the sake of game design though... you should probbably gains system wide intel before changing anything. Imho.

[Dsurion]

I've thought of doing this. My plan was to give everyone a bard progression of spells known but make everything at-will, like a warlock. Of course, my motivations for doing this are more my desire for a resource-management-free magic system than improved balance, but I think you'd end up with improved balance anyway, assuming you banned or converted to incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) that which is broken if used infinitely.This is one of my favorite ideas.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Honestly, this sounds like a hack job of a fix.

Ok, all the game breakers are in tier three territory now. Mostly low tier three. Druid can still compete, and DMM cheese could keep Clericzilla functional, Wizard is just gonna be lame though. In the hands of an experienced optimizer it might still break the game with a very well picked spell book, but it will be lame.

So, are you going to come up with a whole 1-20 progression of cool abilities for wizard on par with those of Pathfinder's Summoner and presumably better than the pre existing Tier 3 9's casters; Dread Necromancer and Beguiler? Or are they getting nerfed too?

If so, are you going to nerf the whole world to compensate; lowering saving throws, removing high end spell-likes and supernatural abilities? What about magic items; You'll need to find every item that requires a spell above sixth level to craft and remove it from the game world.

Are things balanced yet? Maybe we need to remove martial maneuver's and vestiges over 6th level. Oh, you also forgot Psionics; Psions are Tier 2 as well.

There are far more simple and elegant ways to deal with high tier casters.

E6- The tiers are pretty much intact, but the power gap is far less pronounced.

Gentleman's agreement- Basically you just sit down with your players and have a conversation about how you want the game/classes to play ask them not to bring game breaking caster's to the table.

Tier bans-Ban tier 1-2, while your at it ban tier 5-6 optionally allow low tier dips as part of a planned build. At your option this can be just for the party or for the whole world. Obviously, banning low tier couldn't logically be applied to all NPC's.

Right now I'm gearing up to run a game for 3 tier 3 arcane casters. It's starting at zero level in a state run mage school. The world has no arcane caster's over tier 3 because most of them were wiped out in the magewar centuries ago, also magic itself was weakened making it harder to master spells without a more narrow focus. Theoretically one of the few remaining true wizard's could be training truly exceptional students in seclusion but, governments have also stepped in offering free training in the lower tier arcane classes in exchange for compulsory service, thus stunting the growth of generations of potential wizard-kings. I'm also planning to add some transmutation and maybe a little abjuration to Warmage to bring them to tier 3.

I haven't decided yet what I'll be doing with divine casters, I may just leave them intact since nobody is playing them and I've always been fairly strict enforcing proper rp of clerics and druids. So, I may just take out nightsticks and natural spell and call it good.

[jpreem]

I have had the idea that it would actually be a really cool game when all the magic was converted to incantations. It would of course be a tremendous amount of work and the result would i guess acutally not be DD 3.5 anymore.
But somehow this appeals to me - lets say we stick to core classes - remove the full casters entirely. From the remainder the best "casters" will be the ones with lots of skill and appropriate class skills (most incantations use know.arcana, some also religion and planes). Amusuingly it would make monk a quite good "caster" it goes good with fluff of monks as keepers of mystical lore and esoteric skills. (good for both eastern and western types of monks).

Perfect class for "caster" would be Bard. ( good fluff wise for me at least, the mystical teller of stories weaver of magic etc.), which would also give more of a role for a core only bard.

And as for world building, you could build world where other classes would actually matter.
Lets take a quite cliche DD campaign - a group of adventurers storms an evil sorcerers lair to stop him from completing a dangerous ceremony. They have to fight through his minions to reach the inner sanctum. Under these rules it would actually make sense. When the casters can just fling those killing, disabling spells every 6 seconds, without much room for fail ( or more often look :D). Then actually it makes less sense for there to be wimps who cant to any of these things to be guarding someone who can.