Optimisation and playing at Levels 1-3: What happens?

[Elfinor]

I'm planning on playing in a campaign where characters start at level 1. The only experience I have with level 1 characters is as NPC red shirts.

The character concept is an intelligent and charming Swashbuckler who specialises in one-on-one duels - I'd prefer that he be of an 'elegant' and medium sized race (e.g. Elf, half-elf, spirit folk). I don't expect he'll be serving as primary party face, but he should be able to help in social encounters with Bluff and have a high Acrobatics Skill.

I have a general idea of the build: Swashbuckler 4 (for dead levels seduction (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x))/Warblade X. I'm considering taking Warblade 1 before going Swashbuckler - I'd still prefer to get the seduction ability ASAP though. I'll possibly throw Eternal Blade, Rogue (with daring outlaw), Swordsage 1 (Shadow Blade) and/or Fighter 2 in the mix later on.

The problem is, I don't know what really happens during those first three levels - especially the first. What do DM's normally do? How do I 'optimise' to survive and protect spellcasters? What build beginnings do you suggest, without sacrificing too much from the early levels?

We'll effectively be using PF's skill system, but Concentration still exists - Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/) material is allowed but is trumped by 3.5 for the purposes of any conflicts. All official 3.5 material is allowed. 200GP Level 1 spending money. General build advice, for later on, is also appreciated.

[HunterOfJello]

The first few levels are usually spent just trying to stay alive. You'll be running around stabbing things and trying to keep your basic attack, damage, and AC as high as possible.

~

To gain Bluff as a class skill as a Warblade you can take Aereni Focus as a Elf from Aerenal (you also get a +3 to the skill) or take Able Learner as a Human.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For this character starting at Swashbuckler 1, you'll probably want to go Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfFire) or Gray Elf, Str 14 minimum, with EWP or Improved Weapon Familiarity (CW), and use a Spiked Chain or an Elven Courtblade (RotW) if you can even afford it. Use flaws if you can to get Combat Reflexes and Combat Expertise if you went with the spiked chain. The Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) with Improved Toughness would probably be fitting, as fast movement for a feat is well worth it.

For low-level optimization and high survivability at level 1 in general, your best bet is a high strength score, combat reflexes, power attack, cleave, and a glaive. Probably the strongest choice would be a Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Fighter with two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), get Entangling Exhalation with the heart aspect, and wear the heaviest armor you can afford.

[Godskook]

At low levels, the tier list is 'less' influential than at higher levels, such that tier 3 is, in casual play, the strongest, and it bell curves out from there. As optimization increases, tier 1s come into their own, but it generally requires a good deal more effort than I've seen from players within the first 3 months of gameplay(which is what it'd take to get to level 4 in my experience).

Some tips:

1.Until high-end optimization, AC and attack rolls are the name of the game. Having high AC makes you a 'wall', while having good attack rolls makes you a 'glass cannon'. Having both makes you a literal tank(think more Panzer and less D&D).

2.DMs, especially very new DMs, tend to make an interesting 'mistake'. See, creatures that deal more damage are more threatening than others, so logically, we'd expect to see an increase in CR for being able to deal significantly and tactically larger amounts of damage(damage increases are only tactically notable if they change the amount of rounds it takes to kill a target). That said, you'll note that weapons don't have a 'CR' adjustment to them, so a lvl 1 fighter with a dagger is the same CR as the on with a greatsword(From 2.5 damage to 7 damage on average, enough of a change to 1-shot the wizard and 2-shot *EVERYTHING* without a notable Str score). The 'mistake' is that most DMs will pick the greatsword, greataxe, or similarly high-powered weapon and distribute it to things like 1/3 CR goblins.

3.If you can get, DR, effective DR, and on-demand temp-HP are godly at this level of play. If your DM allows retraining feats, Stone Power is incredibly strong at these levels, and a Stone Power Crusader is just about one of the hardest level 1 builds in the game to kill that can still be considered 'balanced'.

4.Always carry a ranged weapon. The less time you spend in melee range the better, even as the party's designated 'tank'. You want to lay down as much suppression fire that by the time melee happens its mostly just clean-up. Throwing daggers, slings, and crossbows ensure that pretty much everyone can join in on this.

5.Hire hirelings whenever feasible. A level 1 warrior, at minimum, works at 3 sp per day. Add in a hefty(~5gp) combat bonus, and most will sign up at the drop of a hat. If planned for when you know you'll get mad lootz within a day or two, the hirelings will mostly pay for themselves.

6.Riding dogs(trained for war) trip like wolves(which are really scary at level 1). Costs 150gp per animal, but between the combat ability and the night watchman utility, you're getting a bargain, imho.

[Basket Burner]

Easy answer. You don't. It's pure randomness if you survive or not, so don't put much effort into your character until level 3. The spellcasters also don't need any help surviving.

[Elfinor]

Thanks everyone for your help!
@HunterOfJello: I just figured out that PF's skill system doesn't have the same emphasis on class skills. First post will be updated accordingly.

@Biffoniacus_Furiou: We were only specifically allowed PF Traits, but I'll see if I can get the Quick Trait through, I can see that being quite useful. I'll try to whack in a flaw or two to fit those feats in. I'm guessing by your weapon/feat suggestions that you think Two Handed Weapons trump TWF as an option? How do you think TWF with ~12 STR stacks up to it?

@Godskook: Thanks for taking the time to write that whole post out - I got a lot out of it. Might consider starting my own games from L1 now:smallbiggrin: I'm considering taking my first level as Warblade instead, so I'll check out if retraining is available.

[Retech]

Um, White Dragonspawn abomination, Spellhoarding, Young, Advanced, Decrepit, Dragonwrought Kobold (if you don't mind some PF) is LA +0, gives you +6 intelligence + any kobold racial modifiers + 3 from venerable, and level 6 wizard casting.

Then play a wizard with 4 hp. Sure, you'd be dead if you were hit anyways, but you're a wizard now

---

Although swash buckler is kinda a difficult one. You could do the above and combine with swashbuckler to make a "gish", and then use the wizardly casting to gain enough experience to level up into the classes that you actually want to play without risk. And you get flight already.

[marcielle]

Minor boost to your Cha. Magic blooded template. No LA, just equal bonus to Cha and hit to Wis. Dragon Magazine 306. Small, but every it counts.

[Elfinor]

Easy answer. You don't. It's pure randomness if you survive or not, so don't put much effort into your character until level 3.That's what I thought, but I just wanted to improve the odds from 'pure' randomness to slightly in my favor. I prefer not to consign my characters to DOA when possible:smallbiggrin:


Um, White Dragonspawn abomination, Spellhoarding, Young, Advanced, Decrepit, Dragonwrought Kobold (if you don't mind some PF) is LA +0, gives you +6 intelligence + any kobold racial modifiers + 3 from venerable, and level 6 wizard casting.

Then play a wizard with 4 hp. Sure, you'd be dead if you were hit anyways, but you're a wizard now

---

Although swash buckler is kinda a difficult one. You could do the above and combine with swashbuckler to make a "gish", and then use the wizardly casting to gain enough experience to level up into the classes that you actually want to play without risk. And you get flight already.I've been specifically told 'no cheese' so afraid it's probably not an option - I know any build with the word 'kobold' in it makes my DM sense tingle :smalltongue: I'll assume the same for him. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
Minor boost to your Cha. Magic blooded template. No LA, just equal bonus to Cha and hit to Wis. Dragon Magazine 306. Small, but every bit counts.Huh, he didn't write anything about the magazine - just the compendium in a way that implies the magazine is not legal 3.5 material. I'll put it in if it's legal. Cheers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I forgot to mention, a slightly cheesy trick at any level is to ready an action to swing and 5-ft. step if someone attacks you. They swing on you, you interrupt that with an attack of your own and 5-ft. adjust out of their reach, and they swing into an empty square. Your initiative changes to put you just before the opponent you interrupted, so you can repeat that every round. If you're facing off against two opponents, when one attacks you take the readied attack against the one who hasn't acted yet so you can hopefully drop him before he even attacks, and still get to step out of reach of the other's attack.

Thus 2h is far better than TWF, plus 2h will probably drop an opponent in one hit at this level rather than having to make two attacks (at a -2) to gain the same effect. You'll probably only want to go TWF if you've got sneak attack, otherwise either 2h or sword-and-board for 1st level, and Swashbuckler doesn't give any shield proficiencies.

I'd actually recommend starting out with a Warblade level, get Steel Wind and Moment of Perfect Mind, with Wolf Fang Strike and Punishing Stance for TWF, or Leading the Attack and Bolstering Voice for 2h. You can use the above readied action trick with Steel Wind and Wolf Fang Strike even. That gets you medium armor proficiency, which with Quick you'll still have a 30 ft. move speed, slightly bigger HD, and just more options in general. For 2h try to get a fly speed with Flyby Attack (Unseelie Fey maybe) since you can't use standard action strikes with Spring Attack. For TWF you'll probably want to start with Weapon Finesse, so see if you can get a different feat at Swashbuckler 1 if you already have that.

[CTrees]

I forgot to mention, a slightly cheesy trick at any level is to ready an action to swing and 5-ft. step if someone attacks you. They swing on you, you interrupt that with an attack of your own and 5-ft. adjust out of their reach, and they swing into an empty square. Your initiative changes to put you just before the opponent you interrupted, so you can repeat that every round. If you're facing off against two opponents, when one attacks you take the readied attack against the one who hasn't acted yet so you can hopefully drop him before he even attacks, and still get to step out of reach of the other's attack.

*re-reads the SRD* Um, wow. I never actually knew you could (sometimes) take a 5ft step as part of a readied action. Huh...

[Basket Burner]

That's what I thought, but I just wanted to improve the odds from 'pure' randomness to slightly in my favor. I prefer not to consign my characters to DOA when possible:smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately there is no way around it. 1-2 hits and it's delete and reroll time. You have absolutely no abilities that will prevent this from happening, and even if you did you're playing a weak archetype, so you'd still be screwed. Aside from starting a few levels higher, the only way of dealing with that is to just not get attached to your character until you get past the random death levels.

[marcielle]

It's less powerful than Dragonborn so no cheese alert. And the Compendium is unbalanced on THE WEAKER side. There are some choice things but really, EFFIN DRUIDS, MAN. And Incantatrix. And Ultimate Magus. And don't forget, Punpun is completely RAW. And the ubercharger.Really, the worst crimes against balance are commited by WotC, not 3rd party publishers.

[Elfinor]

-snip-Heh, nice trick.

Warblade does seem to make more sense for the first level, at least in terms of surviving it. I'll probably be 2h and go elven courtblade later, there isn't enough money to get a ranged weapon+armor at 1st level otherwise. Weapon Finesse can wait.

Might see if I can combine Unseelie Fey with a high STR and/or CON race - the iron vulnerability still looks nasty without DR, though. He's waived LA for genasi, so maybe Earth Genasi? Doesn't quite fit the archetype, but I can always throw 'unusually' in the character description:smallcool: Might try to find another 'maneuver spring attack' method though (sounds especially useful with Arcane Stunt: Expeditious Retreat) or look at alternate flight methods - I'll check them out tomorrow. Thanks.


It's less powerful than Dragonborn so no cheese alert. And the Compendium is unbalanced on THE WEAKER side. There are some choice things but really, EFFIN DRUIDS, MAN. And Incantatrix. And Ultimate Magus. And don't forget, Punpun is completely RAW. And the ubercharger.Really, the worst crimes against balance are commited by WotC, not 3rd party publishers. Yes. I don't think he's taken any steps to nerf them. From what I've heard of our group, it's quite spellcaster heavy but anyway:smallsigh: New group, rather not rock the boat - handing him the bulky set of houserules I normally use or ranting about 'unbalanced 3.5 core' isn't going to endear me to the DM. Or the spellcasting players, come to think of it:smallamused: It'll probably be allowed anyway, he seems relaxed enough.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Might see if I can combine Unseelie Fey with a high STR and/or CON race - the iron vulnerability still looks nasty without DR, though. He's waived LA for genasi, so maybe Earth Genasi? Doesn't quite fit the archetype, but I can always throw 'unusually' in the character description:smallcool: Might try to find another 'maneuver spring attack' method though (sounds especially useful with Arcane Stunt: Expeditious Retreat) or look at alternate flight methods - I'll check them out tomorrow. Thanks.

Looking at the Genasi, I just realized that an Air/Fire Genasi could go Beguiler 1/ Mindbender 1. Not very relevant here, but definitely something to remember.

If your DM is willing to waive other weak level adjustments, Quasilycanthrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) would be a superb choice, and your character could walk around with cat ears/tail. If your DM doesn't think that's weak enough to waive the +1 LA, point out Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) to him.

Get javelins for your ranged weapon since Warblades aren't even proficient with ranged martial weapons. Maybe start with an Elven Thinblade and a shield if you still can't afford the Courtblade, since Improved Weapon Familiarity works for all the elven swords.

[marcielle]

Crusaders are the king of survival. A warforged crusade with Adamantine body is actually HARD to kil at lvl 1. Near immortal if you have a flaw and take Stone Power.
You basically have DR 4 at first level and healing as well as heavy armor.

[The Boz]

Sane DMs either give people extra hit points, or just start at level 3 or over.

[Curious]

Crusaders are the king of survival. A warforged crusade with Adamantine body is actually HARD to kil at lvl 1. Near immortal if you have a flaw and take Stone Power.
You basically have DR 4 at first level and healing as well as heavy armor.

I think you can take that a step further; Warforged Dragonborn Crusader with Adamantine Body, Toughness, and Troll Blooded. You will never die.

[Chronos]

At low levels, you probably won't have any class abilities that really help survival (unless you're a druid or crusader), but that doesn't mean that there's nothing you can do and that it's all random. In short, what you want to do is to be an absolute chicken. Avoid combat whenever demihumanly possible, and if you must fight, try your utmost to make sure that you have an unfair advantage. Something like you and your party on a rooftop, with ranged weapons for all of you, and the enemy on the ground with melee weapons, for instance. It's nervewracking, but it's doable.

[MukkTB]

I really enjoy low level play. Yeah death is cheap at low levels. But I'm blown away to hear so many people saying they skip over the first couple levels. Feels like people saying "Yeah. We don't like starting the race at the starting line." Not to insult anyone's play style. Whatever level you want to start is fine.

At leve 1 you die in 1 good hit. 2 to 3 wussy hits will take you down. You're starting stats are hugely important here. Having a good starting strength means a great deal more than which level of base attack you get. Having good dexterity is at least as important to your AC as your armor. Although starting with a max hit die does mean your constitution modifier doesn't totally overwhelm the size of the die.

Some totally unoptimized feats have value here. Toughness comes to mind. Don't take them though because at 1st level life is cheap. Invest in the future. If you die roll a new character and jump back in.

Staying alive isn't impossible. Stay near NPCs. Don't jump into a dungeon or try to take on a goblin warband without a lot of backup. You don't need a lot of experience to level so do quests for the NPCs. Handling information, moving objects, running errands, assisting NPC adventurers... there are low risk activities that will net you the 1000 (3.5) or 2000 (3.P) XP to level relatively quickly. And unless you let the DM paint a target on your head, or go ahead and do it yourself, no NPCs are going to be motivated to go out of their way to kill you. You're not going to get assassinated in the night unless you declare you're son of the third Earl of Littlebottom, 10th in line for the throne.

Alternatively you can live life on the edge. There is no time for taking risks like level 1. That Goblin Warchief is within charge range? Go for broke. Either you roll well and grab the glory of defeating the enemy leader, or you lose almost nothing. Ceremoniously tear the character sheet in half and get to rolling some new stats.

Monsters are gonna die by the sword. There isn't enough spellcasting floating around to consistently roast them, and when you try to roast them you'll find that your damage numbers and accuracy suck compared to that guy over there swinging a sword or shooting a bow. Area of effect damage spells, buffs, save or sucks, and utility are the order of the day for the spellcasters.

Some people will claim that Teir 1 classes dominate out the gate. Well... Clerics and Druids do well. They have Good HP, AC, and solid class features, but it’s the class features and not the spell lists that make them solid at level 1. Having an animal means more tank between you and death, more rolls to try to get damage on the enemy. Having domains is nifty. So CoDzilla stomps along happily through low levels.

Wizards and Sorcerers don’t. One weak can wipe them out. They can easily prepare the wrong spell for what they run into or simply be overwhelmed even when they have the right spell prepared.

If you get started alone in the wilderness everything becomes a crap shoot. To have a chance you need survival skills or spells and you need healing magic. Sneak and good perception can be vital because the things living in the wilderness could eat you pretty quickly if you give up your ability to avoid them and/or notice them first.

By level 2 there's now something to live for. Btw who brought the healing magic? We really kind of need it. We can't afford a lot of potions or anything so somebody is going to need some healing magic. I can't stress it enough. In fact you should probably just bring your own. During the first level there's not a lot of room between full health and dead. But with the extra HP you run into a new problem. If you aren’t in town or you’re poor, or you’re doing something time sensitive you need to be able to recover HP at a pretty rapid rate or you’ll fail.

I should really mention how valuable skillpoints are. At these low levels magic hasn’t yet become the go to solution for every problem. That’s where the skill monkeys come in. If the problem isn’t, ‘That Goblin is still walking around,’ then you should seriously think about having some skills in the right place for it.

I’m hesitant to rank classes or suggest a low level tier system. But I’d say the best performance at low levels is probably the Druid followed by the Cleric and then the Teir 3 classes.

[Curious]

-Snip-

While I agree with most of your post, I personally think that in addition to the Druid and Cleric, the Summoner, Initiator classes, Witch, and certain Wizard variants are also extremely powerful.

[MukkTB]

The summoner has a big pet. No healing except for the pet. Yeah that'd be pretty good. Not as good as a druid probably. IDK.

I'm not sure what you mean by Initiator. If you mean inquisitor then yes. I agree. I assume inquisitor is tier 3.

The Witch looks like the Wizard. I feel that at very low levels a spellcaster with low HP, bad saves, no armor, 2 skill points, and bad BA aren't that great. They're in no way awful but they don't have the staying power to do very much. I wouldn't put them on the top of the list for low level character performance.

[Godskook]

Wizards and Sorcerers don’t. One weak can wipe them out. They can easily prepare the wrong spell for what they run into or simply be overwhelmed even when they have the right spell prepared.

Depends on the optimization level, especially for wizards. Abrupt Jaunt alone will keep a wizard alive for a *LONG* time.


I'm not sure what you mean by Initiator. If you mean inquisitor then yes. I agree. I assume inquisitor is tier 3.

Initiators are in reference to the Tome of Battle classes.

Also, keep in mind, as best I can tell the OP is talking about a 90% 3.5 game with some borrowed PF material.

[Curious]

The summoner has a big pet. No healing except for the pet. Yeah that'd be pretty good. Not as good as a druid probably. IDK.

I'm not sure what you mean by Initiator. If you mean inquisitor then yes. I agree. I assume inquisitor is tier 3.

The Witch looks like the Wizard. I feel that at very low levels a spellcaster with low HP, bad saves, no armor, 2 skill points, and bad BA aren't that great. They're in no way awful but they don't have the staying power to do very much. I wouldn't put them on the top of the list for low level character performance.

Witch is a wizard, except it gets 'Hexes', which are Save-or-suck debuffs that are usable all day long.

Summoner gets arcane spells, with several discounted spells, such as Haste as a level 2 spell, and their Eidolon is quite a bit stronger than most Animal Companions.

[MukkTB]

Damn Abrupt Jaunt is broken. I totally concede, teleporting 10 feet as a immediate action is gonna keep you alive. As long as the DM doesn't decide to kill you in retaliation.

EDIT - Hmm the witch gets unlimited spells in the form of Hex's. I'm still not particularly feeling it but lets say it would probably do fairly well. At least its not going to eat **** and die.

[Elfinor]

Thanks everyone, all your advice is appreciated. I usually DM at levels 3+. Most of my optimization experience comes from lurking on char op forums (which rarely consider L1 as major factor), writing house rules and (dis)approving player feat/PrC/spell choices. Unless you count DM optimization: give it more HD:smallbiggrin: The DM has postponed the game till after his (and my) exams are over, so I've got more time now. Magic Blooded has been approved. I don't think Warforged or Crusader fits this particular character but I'll keep the idea in mind for other L1 characters.

Looking at the Genasi, I just realized that an Air/Fire Genasi could go Beguiler 1/ Mindbender 1. Not very relevant here, but definitely something to remember.

If your DM is willing to waive other weak level adjustments, Quasilycanthrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) would be a superb choice, and your character could walk around with cat ears/tail. If your DM doesn't think that's weak enough to waive the +1 LA, point out Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) to him.

Get javelins for your ranged weapon since Warblades aren't even proficient with ranged martial weapons. Maybe start with an Elven Thinblade and a shield if you still can't afford the Courtblade, since Improved Weapon Familiarity works for all the elven swords. He said most weak LA races will be waived, so even though it's a template he might let it through. I'm a little worried DR 10/x is kind of an invitation for him to just dump in more powerful monsters or use magic-wielding hookers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html) monsters. Which does, admittedly, solve the iron vulnerability problem. So long the 'monsters' aren't iron-wielding people, anyway. Aside from Fey Skin (CM) and the above mentioned templates is there any other method of gaining DR at first level? Preferably 5ish, I can be a little overcautious with char op sometimes...
EDIT: More DR or Regen

Trollblooded (DR319): mentioned above, but Dragon material so... iffy - also fatigue is kinda annoying. Any way, short of retraining, to negate sunlight fatigue later on? Looks like Tireless (PGtF) is the way to go at the moment. Probably the best DRish option.
Cloak of the Obyrith (Fiendish Codex I): DR/Lawful fits in quite well flavorwise with the 'only hit armed people' flaw - it's like a weakness to monks! Doubt taking any of the other Abyssal Heritor feats will be that useful/flavorful though. I'll keep it in mind for other character possibilities.
Bladeproof Skin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#bladeproofSkin) Might have to change character background a bit for this, but no biggy.

I'll take your weapon advice on board. Pity, it doesn't look like I'll be able to cram a riding dog into budget:smalltongue:


Sane DMs either give people extra hit points, or just start at level 3 or over.:smallcool: I just want to say: That is the first time I have ever been called sane.

EDIT: Logic Trap! All sane DM's do it, not everyone who does it is a sane DM:smallfrown: One day...


Also, keep in mind, as best I can tell the OP is talking about a 90% 3.5 game with some borrowed PF material.Yep, I didn't write up all House Rules. We're allowed Maguses (Magi?), Oracles etc. as well as PF versions of base classes. If you have any PFSRD class/feat suggestions, I can probably make use of them.

[marcielle]

I think you can take that a step further; Warforged Dragonborn Crusader with Adamantine Body, Toughness, and Troll Blooded. You will never die.

That is awesome, aside from the fact warforged don't have blood...like at all.
If you really wanna get some insurance, get a reach weapon on a warforged crusader(you don't NEED spiked chain since warforged have a slam attack but it still helps) and the Stand still feat. Enemies( at least the ones at 1st level) can't reach you half of the time.

[faceroll]

The best way to survive at level 1 is cheesing out those ability scores. Dragonwrought beguiler does pretty ok. Hiding while small (effective size tiny) is awesome. Mundane invis, pretty much. All that int means things go down to your spells fast. Pick up versatile spell caster with a flaw for early access to level 2 spells.