any advice vs. psionic?

[leegi0n]

All,

I know I should just go 'open the books' and read up on it, but hell, I can get better, more timely advice from this forum.


Had a new gamer join us last night. He's a lvl.8 psion/wilder.

I've never run a game with a psionic in it and well, darn it, don't really know how to deal with him. I dunno....it just seems odd that psionics have so many abilities that have no saving throw. Is that true.? Mind thrust, telekinesis, create sound,....stuff like that - no saving throw?

So...

Hit his charisma? Feeblemind?


How do you "deal" with a psionic?

[The_Admiral]

You sound like you want to kill him :smallfrown:
Know thy enemy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19571514/3.5_Psion_Buildguide_and_Compendium)

[Essence_of_War]

All those abilities have saves.

You can look them up here:

Psionic Powers (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowers.htm)

[Zombimode]

Uhm, Mind Thrust has "Will negates".

First thing when "dealing" with anything: make sure the player atually follows the rules. When he thinks Mind Thrust allows for no save, maybe you should check his character sheet and his actions for more errors first.


Pisons and Wilders are full casters and very similar to Wizards, Sorcerrors, Wu-Jens and the like. How do you "deal" with those?

[Psyren]

Mind thrust, telekinesis, create sound

What's he doing with that that's so broken? :smallconfused:

Telekinesis is 3 powers, not one.
Mind Thrust has a save.

[sonofzeal]

You may want to decide now what your "transparency" rules are going to be like for this campaign. Psi can be totally distinct from magic, or just another aspect of it, depending on your preference as DM. Easiest, and most balanced, is to treat it for all intents and purposes as magical. That's the official default anyway; all that talk about "power resistance" (as opposed to "spell resistance") and whatnot is merely for the convenience of those who want to split it off entirely.

Click here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y) for more info.

[Psyren]

Know thy enemy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19571514/3.5_Psion_Buildguide_and_Compendium)

Woefully out of date. Try this one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0)

[leegi0n]

Uhm, Mind Thrust has "Will negates".

First thing when "dealing" with anything: make sure the player atually follows the rules. When he thinks Mind Thrust allows for no save, maybe you should check his character sheet and his actions for more errors first.


Pisons and Wilders are full casters and very similar to Wizards, Sorcerrors, Wu-Jens and the like. How do you "deal" with those?



Yeah.....duly noted. I took it on faith that a friend's recommendation would'nt turn out like this...

[Psyborg]

All,

I know I should just go 'open the books' and read up on it, but hell, I can get better, more timely advice from this forum.


Had a new gamer join us last night. He's a lvl.8 psion/wilder.

I've never run a game with a psionic in it and well, darn it, don't really know how to deal with him. I dunno....it just seems odd that psionics have so many abilities that have no saving throw. Is that true.? Mind thrust, telekinesis, create sound,....stuff like that - no saving throw?

So...

Hit his charisma? Feeblemind?


How do you "deal" with a psionic?

First of all, multiclassing psion and wilder is kinda dumb.
Secondly, mind thrust has a Will save for no effect, telekinesis on living targets has a save (I forget which kind), create sound has no save for the direct effect, but fooling people with it could reasonably require a save similar to other illusions.

You deal with a psionic by:

--Giving him chances to use his powers in various unexpected ways. Because he'll do this anyway; psionics is very flexible and you may as well make the most of this strength. Besides, if you're countering the obvious direct combat applications of his powers, this will help keep him happy and productive.

--Depending on his particular variety of psion, he'll be weak to enemies with good certain saves and/or spell resistance.

--Don't allow a five-minute adventuring day. Even without infinite-action loops (yes, psionics can legitimately take a number of actions in one round limited only by their power point reserve, though it's generally not a problem because it costs them FAR more, relatively speaking, than the one ninth-level spell slot per casting of time stop)...uhm, even without extra-action shenanigans, psions can very easily "go nova" and blow the majority of their daily power points in 1-2 rounds of combat. They will steamroll that encounter- and given how much they've expended on it, they probably deserve to. But letting them rest up in between and steamroll every encounter is bad.

--There are weapon enchantments designed specifically to counter psionic power users.

--Nuking his manifesting stat will shut him down pretty damn hard, yeah...if he's stupid or unlucky and this happens, well, okay- and you can certainly put monsters in that can do this if he screws up- but specifically targeting or trying to do this is probably a bad idea as it's likely to make him completely useless for a few days or a week while he recovers. Exception for the recurring BBEG, who one assumes would try to do specifically this, and also assumes the PCs have figured out a defense or counter to it by the time the final showdown is reached.

--Yes, psionics actually does have the single source of damage in the entire game that is auto-hit, no save, no spell resistance (and AoE to boot): swarm of crystals. It's not very efficient, however.

[sonofzeal]

Yeah.....duly noted. I took it on faith that a friend's recommendation would'nt turn out like this...
If the player is new to Psi, then it's entirely possible THEY'RE confused too. New systems can often be disorienting, and players have a tendency to interpret things in the most favourable possible light, and not go looking for the little caveat that prevents it ("can't spend more pp than your ML" being the biggie).

That said, they could also be trying to pull a fast one on you. Anything's possible.

Is there anything else you need?

[leegi0n]

Yeah.....duly noted. I took it on faith that a friend's recommendation would'nt turn out like this...

Thanks everyone...big help.

I'm building a vampire lord/kineticist right now. Any (class/feat) suggestions?

[Yora]

As a Gm with a psion in the party, you have to learn only two things:

1. Read the descriptions of the powers the character knows. They are pretty much just like spells, except that they don't improve automatically with increased manifester level, but the player has to spend additional power points to make the power stronger than the absolute minimum.

2. A character can only spend as much power points on a power as he has manifester levels. When an 8th level psion manifests a 3rd level power, it costs 5 power points to cast at the bare minimum and then he has only 3 more power points left to augment it.

But are you sure he is a multiclass psion/wilder? If he is, he probably got something mixed up.

[leegi0n]

If the player is new to Psi, then it's entirely possible THEY'RE confused too. New systems can often be disorienting, and players have a tendency to interpret things in the most favourable possible light, and not go looking for the little caveat that prevents it ("can't spend more pp than your ML" being the biggie).

That said, they could also be trying to pull a fast one on you. Anything's possible.

Is there anything else you need?



just an opinionated thumbs up/down regarding the vampire lord/kineticist build I am considering. This will be a showdown once the party reaches the threshold of lvl20. I want to build the vamplord/kin. at about lvl 18, but don't even know, at this point if it could be a decent combination of classing. We'll see...

thoughts?

[Yuki Akuma]

No, really, open the book (or the SRD) and read about psionics.

It's much easier than asking here. Really.

If you understand spellcasting, you can understand psionics because it's the same thing.

Also: a vampire lord kineticist isn't a great plan. His manifester level will be very low, unless you make his CR wildly inappropriate for the party.

[leegi0n]

As a Gm with a psion in the party, you have to learn only two things:

1. Read the descriptions of the powers the character knows. They are pretty much just like spells, except that they don't improve automatically with increased manifester level, but the player has to spend additional power points to make the power stronger than the absolute minimum.

2. A character can only spend as much power points on a power as he has manifester levels. When an 8th level psion manifests a 3rd level power, it costs 5 power points to cast at the bare minimum and then he has only 3 more power points left to augment it.

But are you sure he is a multiclass psion/wilder? If he is, he probably got something mixed up.


I honestly think he's just a wilder.

[Psyren]

For your kineticist, read the handbook I linked and come back with specific questions.

[leegi0n]

No, really, open the book (or the SRD) and read about psionics.

It's much easier than asking here. Really.

If you understand spellcasting, you can understand psionics because it's the same thing.

Also: a vampire lord kineticist isn't a great plan. His manifester level will be very low, unless you make his CR wildly inappropriate for the party.



even with illithid as a base race template?

[Yora]

That's probably even worse.

Some months ago someone made a really good guide to explain psionics to people familar with spellcasting. Anyone remember it?

[Siosilvar]

That's probably even worse.

Some months ago someone made a really good guide to explain psionics to people familar with spellcasting. Anyone remember it?

I know what you're talking about, but I don't have the link to it any more.

Still, the basics are this:

Instead of casting a spell, you manifest a power. Same thing, different words.

Instead of spell slots, psions use power points. Their powers don't scale automatically, instead requiring you to spend more power points to scale them (called augmenting the power). Two power points is about equal to one spell level.

You cannot spend more power points on a power than your manifester level. Ever. The only ways to increase your manifester level above your class level are the Overchannel feat, a wilder's Wild Surge, and the Practiced Manifester feat in Complete Psionic.

Psionic powers have "displays" instead of "components" (though these can be suppressed with a Concentration check), don't suffer Arcane Spell Failure, and don't have to speak or move to manifest a power.

Feats that interact with spellcasting don't affect manifesting, and vice versa.

Other than that, psionics is just like normal spellcasting - saving throws (DCs scale by power level just like spells and are usually also increased by augments), spell resistance (unless you use the alternate "Psionics is Different" rules), and so forth work as normal. In fact, they work so much the same that you could replace every instance of "power" with "spell" and "manifester" with "caster" and have almost identical systems (except for how feats interact with them and the power points/spell slots distinction).

As for the items: Dorjes are wands, psicrowns are staves, power stones are scrolls, and Cognizance Crystals work like Pearls of Power. Psionic tattoos are like potions.


In play, the main difference is that the psion's lower level powers can be more useful, since they can be augmented up to be just as good as higher level powers (for the same point expenditure).

EDIT: And psions have to choose a specialization, but get bonus powers from their discipline instead of losing powers from others - kind of like how a cleric's domains work. Wilders don't choose a discipline and have very few powers known but can usually increase their manifester level. Psychic warriors have essentially a bard's spell progression, and most of their powers are self-buffs.

EDIT2: Another thing. Anybody with a power point pool (even if it's 0 points, like a 1st-level psychic warrior) can make a Concentration check to gain psionic focus. Some feats give you bonuses while you're psionically focused, and others (like the metapsionic feats, which work the same as metamagic) require you to lose your psionic focus to use them. This means you can only use one metapsionic feat at a time.

You can also use your psionic focus to take 15 on a Concentration check.

[Urpriest]

even with illithid as a base race template?

Illithid vampires are rather different anyway. I'm not even sure one could be a Vampire Lord.

[Yuki Akuma]

even with illithid as a base race template?

Illithids can't become Vampire Lords. Illithid vampires are different.

And it would be even worse anyway. High CR modifiers do not play well with spellcasting classes for villainous NPCs.

[Yora]

Found it!

Google is your friend, if you know how to ask the right questions.

This is one of the best introductions to psionics. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10635999&postcount=2) It's not long, but if you are familiar with the rules of D&D and never learned psionic rules, it will get you all the basics while avoiding the most common pitfalls.

[leegi0n]

Illithids can't become Vampire Lords. Illithid vampires are different.

And it would be even worse anyway. High CR modifiers do not play well with spellcasting classes for villainous NPCs.



Ok...What then, is an Alhoon, exactly? What would be an ideal class for such an illithid?

[Daftendirekt]

Ok...What then, is an Alhoon, exactly?

Alhoons are illithiliches. Nothing to do with vampirism.

[leegi0n]

Alhoons are illithiliches. Nothing to do with vampirism.

ah....so, we're talking severe CR on something like that? Illithilich, like a spellcaster or psionics? Would it be reasonable to throw something like that at a ECL party of 15? I can't find much information in the books about Alhoons. What's their favored class? Wizard?

[Daftendirekt]

ah....so, we're talking severe CR on something like that? Illithilich, like a spellcaster or psionics? Would it be reasonable to throw something like that at a ECL party of 15? I can't find much information in the books about Alhoons. What's their favored class? Wizard?

Page 89 of Monsters of Faerun. Tells you exactly how illithid liches work.

[leegi0n]

Page 89 of Monsters of Faerun. Tells you exactly how illithid liches work.



Also, found lords of madness. There's some stats in there for them.

[Urpriest]

Page 89 of Monsters of Faerun. Tells you exactly how illithid liches work.

It's also in Libris Mortis, IIRC, if you don't have Faerun stuff. Anyway, favored class is unlikely to be relevant unless you're multiclassing them. If you're unfamiliar with how to put templates and class levels on monsters then I suggest you read the guide in my sig.

Edit: Apparently meant Lords of Madness.

[leegi0n]

It's also in Libris Mortis, IIRC, if you don't have Faerun stuff. Anyway, favored class is unlikely to be relevant unless you're multiclassing them. If you're unfamiliar with how to put templates and class levels on monsters then I suggest you read the guide in my sig.

Edit: Apparently meant Lords of Madness.



yeah, I'm familiar with templates and what not. I'm just gonna go straight through the stats in Lords of Madness. It pretty much takes the question out of it.

Thanks for your help.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, Telekinetic Thrust, just like the identical function of Telekinesis, does not offer a save - if you are chucking things at someone, you have to make attack rolls instead. It's only if you are throwing creatures that they are entitled to a saving throw, and that is a very poor use of the spell as it only deals like 1d6 damage.

[Than]

Anyone else notice two very very similar powers on XPH pages 91 and 92?

[Yora]

Don't know exactly which pages those are, but I assume it's that one single joke I've ever seen in a 3rd Ed. book. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Don't know exactly which pages those are, but I assume it's that one single joke I've ever seen in a 3rd Ed. book. :smallwink:

"one single joke?" Have you ever looked at spell components?

[Yora]

I assumed those were meant to be serious. Often silly and stupid, but meant seriously. After all, I think they are taken over from AD&D and back then authors had really weird ideas what is appropriate in RPGs.

[Yuki Akuma]

D&D books are full of jokes. Deja Vu is just the most obvious.

[Psyren]

I assumed those were meant to be serious. Often silly and stupid, but meant seriously. After all, I think they are taken over from AD&D and back then authors had really weird ideas what is appropriate in RPGs.

You mean the same authors that invented the duckbunny? Those guys? :smalltongue:

And of course some components are jokes. Check out Confusion and Feeblemind for instance.

[Yora]

Yes, those guys. Seriously.

If there was only the duckbunny, it might well be a joke. But you find such things consistently on every second page of older edition monster manuals.

[Psyren]

Yes, those guys. Seriously.

If there was only the duckbunny, it might well be a joke. But you find such things consistently on every second page of older edition monster manuals.

Right, because they are consistently not serious.