Raptorans- how do they work?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Specifically, how does their society work with the whole delayed-flight bit? I understand why it's there- and from a game design standpoint, it's brilliant. But... if we look at the standard rules for populating cities and such, only an infinitesimally small number of raptorans will ever reach 10th level, even in an NPC class. Even getting the (very) limited flight at 5th level should be limited to a small elite. And yet, the book talks about their society as being very flight-oriented (especially the flying lacrosse-type game, the name of which escapes me at the moment). I know the book mentions the Path of the Four Winds (?) where young raptorans go off and wander for a few levels, but that seems to have its own problems in survivability.

So... is a raptoran tribe just generally more badass than any other race, or does the crunch fail the fluff? And if so, how can it be fixed?

[Psyren]

Commoner/Expert 5? With some Warriors?

[Aergoth]

Very simple. Standard rules don't apply in this situation.
More accurately, the fluff says that Raptorans are all flying around in their cities, crunch says they can't until fifth level, ergo the lowest level *adult* raptorans must be level five. They aren't terribly large settlements either IIRC

[umbergod]

its a situation of crunch and fluff contradicting one another.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Commoner or Expert 5 isn't that crazy. Aristocrat 10 for flock leader, Druid or Cleric 10 for spiritual leader. Its not that crazy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Commoner or Expert 5 isn't that crazy. Aristocrat 10 for flock leader, Druid or Cleric 10 for spiritual leader. Its not that crazy.

Tribes do not have aristocrats! :smallfurious:

[umbergod]

Tribes do not have aristocrats! :smallfurious:

says who? cuz the raptorans arent primitive

[Aergoth]

Tribes do not have aristocrats! :smallfurious:

Says who? Aristocrat is a class, not a job.
Crunch =/= fluff

[umbergod]

Says who? Aristocrat is a class, not a job.
Crunch =/= fluff

QFT. Aristocrat is being a noble, and even barbarians clans can have princes and princesses

[hamishspence]

Indeed, the class would fit quite well into almost any society- the key features being that they're good all-rounders- more skills and better BAB than commoners.

[Qwertystop]

Says who? Aristocrat is a class, not a job.
Crunch =/= fluff

Except where crunch blocks fluff (such as the inability of low-level raptorans to fly plus the fluff of raptorans flying a lot). In those cases, one must change to permit the other (Raptoran adults being 5th level minimum).

[Hiro Protagonest]

So why is the tribal leader a class with 3/4 BAB and a good will save? That's exactly what the druid has, minus, you know, all the class features.

[Psyren]

It says they have to undergo a rite to be able to fly.


To ensure that only the fittest and most capable raptorans are available to fill the ranks of these would-be warriors, the agreement with the elementals called for the raptorans to put their offspring through a test of survival and self-reliance called the Walk of the Four Winds. To this day, every member of a raptoran flock must undergo this trial before becoming able to fly.

When the flock chief judges a young adult raptoran to be ready for the walk, that raptoran can leave immediately to start the test. Those who do not leave at their earliest opportunity are referred to by other members of the community as “gliders” (reflecting their limited capacity to use their wings).

This rite likely ties into the crunch by representing the minimum level you have to be to pass it.

[nedz]

Commoner or Expert 5 isn't that crazy. Aristocrat 10 for flock leader, Druid or Cleric 10 for spiritual leader. Its not that crazy.

It is in E6 :smallsmile:

[Hiro Protagonest]

It is in E6 :smallsmile:

...You do realize E6 characters have advancement past 6th level, right?

[Aergoth]

I'm not highly familiar with E6, so take my advice with a heaping helping of salt
This is what the DM is for. If the fluff says that the raptorans should be flying around, then let the NPCs fly around as though they had that fly speed.
The restriction there is *clearly* for PCs.

[KillianHawkeye]

Regardless, this race was clearly not designed with E6 houserules in mind.

[BlackestOfMages]

Tribes do not have aristocrats! :smallfurious:

aristocrat: a member of the ruling class or nobility

so yes, every civilisation that has any form of govornment has aristocrats.

Though the wording problem here is that they're definded as raptoran "tribes" when they live in towns and are fully civilised. should be settlements tbh.

[Qwertystop]

Yeah, things are rarely designed with any houserules in mind. E6 is just a really big houserule that's more widely known than most.

If you don't know what it is, it basically caps level advancement at level 6, then continues advancement in the form of special feats every such-and-such amount of XP. You can also take normal feats, obviously.

[Diefje]

They keep their noobs in the basement, locked up safely so they don't go adventuring off and get killed by spiders, rats, bats, kobolds, or housecats.

It is the responsible thing to do

[umbergod]

They keep their noobs in the basement, locked up safely so they don't go adventuring off and get killed by spiders, rats, bats, kobolds, or housecats.

It is the responsible thing to do

ugh just reminded me im about to start a level 1 campaign >.> FML i dont miss dire rats being a serious threat to character life

[hex0]

Except where crunch blocks fluff (such as the inability of low-level raptorans to fly plus the fluff of raptorans flying a lot). In those cases, one must change to permit the other (Raptoran adults being 5th level minimum).

Yeah, what's wrong with that? I think NPCs should get a level every few levels of life.

[nedz]

It is in E6 :smallsmile:


...You do realize E6 characters have advancement past 6th level, right?

Yes - advancement by feats.
Its just that the theory of E6 means that most Raptorans should not be able to fly: E6 = Epic 6th.
Raptorans in E4 would be somewhat sad.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yes - advancement by feats.
Its just that the theory of E6 means that most Raptorans should not be able to fly: E6 = Epic 6th.
Raptorans in E4 would be somewhat sad.

But it means level 5 characters in E6 are no more surprising than in regular D&D. You can still get the equivalent of level 20 in E6.

[sonofzeal]

The math works out better if you assume an extremely high birth rate (large clutches of eggs laid very frequently), a fast maturation to adolescence, and that Path of the Four Winds continues until some measure or form of flight is gained. The vast majority would likely fail before completing the Path, but with sufficient numbers attempting it there should be a solid core who succeed.

Of course, this means low-level Raptoran adventurers should be thick on the ground, but whatevz.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Conclusion, Raptorans are a rather silly race that only function in a world that has more mid to high level NPC's than many DM's are comfortable with.

[Qwertystop]

Or, for Raptorans, they are trained from a very young age, so by the time they're adult, they're level 5. Some Raptorans are "trained" by leaving on quests early instead of staying home until the test-thingy.

[sonofzeal]

Conclusion, Raptorans are a rather silly race that only function in a world that has more mid to high level NPC's than many DM's are comfortable with.
Yeah, but... if your DM is comfortable with a tribe of Ogres (ECL 6) wandering around the countryside, why the heck shouldn't they be comfortable with a tribe of ECL 5-6 Raptorans?

[Aergoth]

It's not like they're a particularly populous race to begin with.

[Havelock]

How about every raptoran becomes an adventurer, those eventually returning are those with the genes to get that high up in level. Essentially insuring that every Raptoran child is basically an Übermensch (Nazi interpretation more than Nietzsche, which is somewhat supported by the fluff as I recall, something about pacts with air elementals/Gods), which will all have parents, uncles, teachers etc with 10+ PC classes, and possibly starting out with various magic items handed down throughout the generations. An all-Raptoran party is probably quite common, put together by their parents to ensure best chance of survival, although parents might in fact encourage them to spread out so that if one party is wiped, only one Raptoran goes down with them.

[nedz]

Yes - advancement by feats.
Its just that the theory of E6 means that most Raptorans should not be able to fly: E6 = Epic 6th.
Raptorans in E4 would be somewhat sad.


But it means level 5 characters in E6 are no more surprising than in regular D&D. You can still get the equivalent of level 2 in E6.

You may be right, but I've always viewed E6 as a low level varient of the game. Under that philosophy level 5 characters are rather rare. The actual answer depends upon the setting: but encountering lots of flying Raptorians in an E6 game would stretch my credulity.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I meant level 20! Stupid typos...

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Yeah, but... if your DM is comfortable with a tribe of Ogres (ECL 6) wandering around the countryside, why the heck shouldn't they be comfortable with a tribe of ECL 5-6 Raptorans?

I don't have a problem with tribes of ogres at CR 3 I do have a problem with a whole tribe of advanced creatures that all have several class levels. Why, because I assume that a monstrous race hits it's base HD through everyday activity rather than through facing dozens of level appropriate challenges and progressing through their savage species progression.

From an ecological (not a perfect term but the closest I can think of) standpoint it has to be easier to hit ECL 6 as an ogre than to become a level six member of a 1HD race or else a squad of 20 lvl 5 humans would be commonplace due to their high population. Of course you are perfectly welcome to run a world that way, but I'm pretty sure it would put you in the minority.

[awa]

some societies are going to be more bad ass then others in general
if we took 10 random crusade's era young men from the mongols and had them fight 10 random Americans from today i know who id put my money on. the raptorean society for what ever reason trains its young people to be master warriors. there highest level individuals will be no better but their intensive training means that they will each be at least level 5.

also tribes talk about how the group is organized not their degree of civilization intelligence or whether they live in a village or not. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tribe

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I don't understand what's all the fuss about. I don't see any problems here. The raptorans can glide and the more powerful ones even fly. Their settlements are made for flying people. What's wrong with that? :smallconfused:

[awa]

the settlements assume you can fly not glide which means the adults or at least the majority of them are level 5.
its unusual for a society to have every adult member be at least 5th level. creating a very different kind of society then is normally found with humanoid races in a normal dnd game.

[Prime32]

It takes lv5 for a raptoran PC to fly. Such a character is completely cut off from raptoran society, so it's not odd that they'd take longer to learn than the guys who stay at home.

And if you wanted to run an all-raptoran game set in a raptoran city then most enemies would fly too, so handing it out at lower levels wouldn't be much of a problem.

[Yuki Akuma]

Raptoran society encourages people to further themselves and reach higher levels.

Human society doesn't (quite so much).

I mean, there's the whole "get thrown out of the settlement until you reach level five" cultural norm they have.

[awa]

3.5 does not quite work that way npc raptroians cant fly unless their at least level 5 as well. their are ways that npcs and pcs vary but thats not one of them without house rules a race has the same advantages whether its a pc or an npc.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The Path of the Four Winds is the Raptoran right of passage, so to speak. Every Raptoran has a chance to take it. They can choose not to and get a nasty slur that I can't remember. The point of the Path is to encourage individual strength and survival. Its encouraged, but not enforced, that it be done alone. They can become adventurers and have a party but its ultimatly a solo rite of passage. 5th is when they gain a true fly speed and they should not return from the Path before then. They have a high birth rate, about 2 or 3 per clutch and it happens every year in the spring. They are trained from birth. Their entire society, mainly individual strength and nature-attunment, promotes them to be, on average, higher HD than other LA 0 Humanoids.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

To everyone that says that a race can have a high proportion of high level characters I have to ask. What level are soldiers in your world(s)? By soldiers I mean people that have been through bootcamp and either been in an actual war or been drilling regularly for a year? What about average orcish raiders?

I'm sorry but it's just silly, unless your allowing training to level people beyond level 2-3 then there simply can't be a race that have almost all level 5 plus adults. It's just poor design.

[thereaper]

This problem goes away if you stop assuming every NPC in the world is level 1. Since, y'know, that's highly unbelievable to begin with (a level 1 commoner can die from a single punch given by a 10 str guy if they fail to stabilize).

If instead, you assume that most people in the world are level 2 or 3, then a society of level 5's is no longer so outlandish.

[NNescio]

This problem goes away if you stop assuming every NPC in the world is level 1. Since, y'know, that's highly unbelievable to begin with (a level 1 commoner can die from a single punch given by a 10 str guy if they fail to stabilize).

<insert mandatory housecat reference>

[Daftendirekt]

REALLY don't see what all the fuss is about. Raptorans are just that badass.

[deuxhero]

so yes, every civilisation that has any form of govornment has aristocrats.
.

Autonomous collective?

[awa]

so their marry sues better then humans doesn't mean its poor design not like theirs no precedent in fiction for one race just being better then another this ones just designed to be used by pcs, so its im better then you crunch is represented by high levels rather than through racial hit dice and la.

[Daftendirekt]

Autonomous collective?

You're foolin' yourself! We're livin' in a dictatorship!

[Yuki Akuma]

so their marry sues better then humans doesn't mean its poor design not like theirs no precedent in fiction for one race just being better then another this ones just designed to be used by pcs, so its im better then you crunch is represented by high levels rather than through racial hit dice and la.

No, humans are still better, because of their bonus feat.

[sonofzeal]

(a level 1 commoner can die from a single punch given by a 10 str guy if they fail to stabilize).
False, on two counts.

First, max hp at first level with a Con of 10 gives 4 hp, while unarmed strikes for medium creatures do 1d3. Even accounting for crits, the chance of doing more than 4 damage comes out to less than 1%. While I grant it's possible to do 5 or even 6 damage on that punch, I'd argue that a <1% chance is not worth commenting on.

Second, unarmed strikes do nonlethal by default. Even if that punch gets a max-damage crit, it'll only knock them unconscious. You never have to stabilize if all you've taken is nonlethal.

[Yuki Akuma]

NPCs don't get max HP at first level. Average HP for a first level Commoner with 10 Con is 2.

[Serpentine]

Aforementioned Rite of Passage which ensures that the majority of adult raptorans in raptoran society are at least level 5. Doesn't mean they'll end up getting much further than that, but it seems that's the standard for raptorans. Why is it so unreasonable for different societies to have different standards?

In my gameworld, that's totally reasonable. It's pretty much been ruled that several years of fairly intensive education (about high school/uni level) in a field will get you to about level 4-5: the campaign mine grew out of started with the party graduating from an Adventurer's Academy at level 5. So that fits in very well with raptoran society.

[Daftendirekt]

Second, unarmed strikes do nonlethal by default. Even if that punch gets a max-damage crit, it'll only knock them unconscious. You never have to stabilize if all you've taken is nonlethal.

Yep. DnD. The game where you can punch somebody in the face for hours and not risk killing them. Because, you know, only monks can kill people with their hands. Nobody else has EVER done that.

[awa]

also people who take improved unarmed strike

[Yuki Akuma]

Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't let you deal lethal damage. It lets you attack without provoking.

Taking a -4 on your attack roll lets you deal lethal damage.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't let you deal lethal damage. It lets you attack without provoking.

Taking a -4 on your attack roll lets you deal lethal damage.

Read the feat again.

[Daftendirekt]

Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't let you deal lethal damage. It lets you attack without provoking.

Taking a -4 on your attack roll lets you deal lethal damage.

Yeah. If that were true, monks would be even more terrible than they are now.

[Yuki Akuma]

Read the feat again.

Oh hey, I was wrong.

What a surprise. >.>

[Qwertystop]

The point remains. Only people with special training can kill people by punching or kicking them.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

In my gameworld, that's totally reasonable. It's pretty much been ruled that several years of fairly intensive education (about high school/uni level) in a field will get you to about level 4-5: the campaign mine grew out of started with the party graduating from an Adventurer's Academy at level 5. So that fits in very well with raptoran society.

So, I'd fully accept lvl 5 Raptoreans in this world, but I've seen a lot more people on this forum talk about lower level worlds. I've even done similar in worlds where I wanted to make training a part of the game and in that world elves and dwarves aren't playable because they're all too high level after an apprenticeship that lasted a human lifespan.

When you inflict subdual damage equal to someones current hp they are knocked unconcious but do not start bleeding out. Any remaining subdual damage is applied to the from the top as lethal. So it would take a crit and a roll of 3 to actually knock them into lethal negatives at which point they'd get 8 stabalization checks further tipping the scales against death.

A little flimsier than real folks? Sure, but about on par with cinematic combat.

[MesiDoomstalker]

So, I'd fully accept lvl 5 Raptoreans in this world, but I've seen a lot more people on this forum talk about lower level worlds. I've even done similar in worlds where I wanted to make training a part of the game and in that world elves and dwarves aren't playable because they're all too high level after an apprenticeship that lasted a human lifespan.

When you inflict subdual damage equal to someones current hp they are knocked unconcious but do not start bleeding out. Any remaining subdual damage is applied to the from the top as lethal. So it would take a crit and a roll of 3 to actually knock them into lethal negatives at which point they'd get 8 stabalization checks further tipping the scales against death.

A little flimsier than real folks? Sure, but about on par with cinematic combat.

Wrong. Conciously dealing non-lethal damage (I.E. not taking non-lethal from starvation or weather effects) will never ever convert into lethal. Doesn't matter if your non-lethal reaches 1 billion, it won't convert till they start starving to death. Now if they take non-lethal from enviromental hazards, they will eventually start dealing lethal.

[dgnslyr]

Huh? I could have sworn that even someone without Improved Unarmed Strike can deal lethal damage by taking a -4 to hit, which I think provokes attacks of opportunity.

Never mind, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike)saves the day again. People unproficient with their fists provoke AoO from throwing punches, as I expected, but there's no lethal damage clause. Weird, I don't think I would have made up a rule like that without seeing it somewhere. Maybe I'm going crazy. that is to say, crazier than usual

[Hiro Protagonest]

Huh? I could have sworn that even someone without Improved Unarmed Strike can deal lethal damage by taking a -4 to hit, which I think provokes attacks of opportunity.

Never mind, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike)saves the day again. People unproficient with their fists provoke AoO from throwing punches, as I expected, but there's no lethal damage clause. Weird, I don't think I would have made up a rule like that without seeing it somewhere. Maybe I'm going crazy. that is to say, crazier than usual

They can. Specific trumps general, but in this case, there is no specific rule saying you can't, and there is a general rule saying you can.

[Qwertystop]

So it's harder to punch someone and hurt them than it is to punch them and knock them out, and if you try to punch someone, they can always hit you first.

[awa]

only if they have a weapon out and are not flat footed

[thereaper]

False, on two counts.

First, max hp at first level with a Con of 10 gives 4 hp, while unarmed strikes for medium creatures do 1d3. Even accounting for crits, the chance of doing more than 4 damage comes out to less than 1%. While I grant it's possible to do 5 or even 6 damage on that punch, I'd argue that a <1% chance is not worth commenting on.

Second, unarmed strikes do nonlethal by default. Even if that punch gets a max-damage crit, it'll only knock them unconscious. You never have to stabilize if all you've taken is nonlethal.

What makes you think our hypothetical punching bag has 10 con? I was thinking 6-7 (which you would expect a few people in any given town to have).

But yes, I forgot the non-lethal thing.

So, one punch from a 10 str guy wearing a gauntlet. If he manages 3 damage and the 2 hp guy fails to stabilize, he's gone. Or, we could assume a 12 str guy wearing a gauntlet (slightly stronger than average) delivering a single punch to a 8-9 con guy (slightly less resilient than average) getting that same 3 damage roll with a gauntlet.

Point is, it's absurd, and the same solution to this problem (assuming adult commoners to be at least level 2-3) also solves the Raptoran issue (since a society of people with the culture Raptorans are supposed to have who are almost entirely 5th level is no longer considered outlandish).

[awa]

by the same logic if you assume every adult human is at least level 3 with an average of 6 hp a 10str needs to strike in a particularly vital spot to kill with a short sword. which is just as unrealistic if not more then the fact that a metal clad fist has a reasonable chance to knock a man out with a single punch.
and while you could run a game assuming all adults have several levels its not the way the game was designed or assumed to work.

edit
also beating up some one whose health is severely compromised (like have a 6 or 7 con) is not hard and in that situation a one shot punch is entirely reasonable. you are hitting them with a heavy piece of metal

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well, I'm proud to be revealing my Raptoran avatar here shortly. I like them even with their quirks. :smallsmile:

[Anarion]

How about every raptoran becomes an adventurer, those eventually returning are those with the genes to get that high up in level. Essentially insuring that every Raptoran child is basically an Übermensch (Nazi interpretation more than Nietzsche, which is somewhat supported by the fluff as I recall, something about pacts with air elementals/Gods), which will all have parents, uncles, teachers etc with 10+ PC classes, and possibly starting out with various magic items handed down throughout the generations. An all-Raptoran party is probably quite common, put together by their parents to ensure best chance of survival, although parents might in fact encourage them to spread out so that if one party is wiped, only one Raptoran goes down with them.

This, except without the Nietzsche overtones, is what my gaming group went for. Basically assume that Raptorans have a pretty small society and pretty much all their young become actual adventurers (or go out into the world and don't come back). You're not very likely to encounter a Raptoran, but when you do, it probably has a bunch of class levels and there's a good chance they're in a PC class.


by the same logic if you assume every adult human is at least level 3 with an average of 6 hp a 10str needs to strike in a particularly vital spot to kill with a short sword. which is just as unrealistic if not more then the fact that a metal clad fist has a reasonable chance to knock a man out with a single punch.
and while you could run a game assuming all adults have several levels its not the way the game was designed or assumed to work.

edit
also beating up some one whose health is severely compromised (like have a 6 or 7 con) is not hard and in that situation a one shot punch is entirely reasonable. you are hitting them with a heavy piece of metal

Brass knuckles in the real world are considered an attack with a deadly weapon, same as a knife or a sword. It's completely reasonable that a guy with a steel gauntlet could knock someone out with one punch, particularly one that has better strength than the con of the person getting hit.

[thereaper]

by the same logic if you assume every adult human is at least level 3 with an average of 6 hp a 10str needs to strike in a particularly vital spot to kill with a short sword. which is just as unrealistic if not more then the fact that a metal clad fist has a reasonable chance to knock a man out with a single punch.
and while you could run a game assuming all adults have several levels its not the way the game was designed or assumed to work.

edit
also beating up some one whose health is severely compromised (like have a 6 or 7 con) is not hard and in that situation a one shot punch is entirely reasonable. you are hitting them with a heavy piece of metal

The reason that being stabbed is deadly is because you bleed out rapidly (you can apply more force with a baseball bat). D&D doesn't simulate this (except when you're unconscious), so once that is taken into account, yes, it is entirely reasonable that an average adult in D&D should be able to survive an attack from a short sword unless struck in a vital area. Indeed, the game requires that the rules of biology not apply properly (or else the entire HP concept wouldn't work, since every successful attack with a bladed weapon would force a massive damage fortitude save).

[awa]

a club is even less deadly it dosent change the fact that arguing every one must be level 2 so they cant get knocked out with a single punch is pointless because that's more believable then the fact you cant be killed or even knocked out by a short sword unless he hits you in a extremly vital location.

[MukkTB]

On the side note of Aristocrats.

It comes down to a matter of how much 'choice' its believed NPCs have about choosing their class. Of course given any kind of choice no matter what stats they rolled commoners would choose some kind of class with decent features. Why not choose fighter for a better hit die or rogue so they have enough skill points to keep themselves and their family alive? Its actually kind of amusing to think about how well a low level commoner would be able to eke out an existence given the way skills work with only 2/level.

So in order to have commoners in the world we have to assume one of two things. #1 There are actually prerequisites (probably in the form of stat requirements) to qualify for PC classes. OR #2 You don't get to choose your class at any time. It is chosen for you based on what you do with your time and your social background.

Well if #2 was the case it becomes very interesting to think about PCs. Getting to choose which first level class you start out as isn't a hard hand wave. The character made will have lived his life in such a way as to become that class. However on level up the player wouldn't get to choose which class he took his next level up.

I imagine the conversation going something like this.
PC "I just leveled."
DM "OK. Take a level in rogue"
PC "What?"
DM "You've been running around stabbing people in the back."
PC "But I want a spell casting level. I'm a wizard."
DM "Who stabs people in the back."

Given that that doesn't happen lets assume #1 is in effect. #1 Would state that some rulers, princes, and tribal leaders would only qualify for aristocrat and some would qualify for better classes which they would normally take because they can choose to take the best class they qualify for. Well we see that in action. In fact if a leader is an enemy that will at some point engage the players in combat he's more likely to have class levels in something interesting and if the leader is not likely to be a story line encounter or an enemy hes likely to have aristocrat levels.

On a side note we have to deal a bit with social Darwinism. If the society has a tradition that anyone can challenge the ruler to a 1 on 1 duel for his leadership then its unlikely that the leader would be an aristocrat. Some same level dude with a better combat class would challenge him to a duel and win.

On the other hand a large kingdom where a ruler has great wealth and power with many men answering to him his personal combat abilities are a bit less valuable. Aristocrat is more viable although there are better classes that would serve in terms of diplomacy, knowledge of how to rule, ect.

On the other other hand if assassination was common amongst the aristocracy then we're back to favoring people with class levels with bigger hit dice and better saving throws.

For players our group house rules that they can't be more than minor nobility if they start as a PC class. A player could start as a landless knight or a broke minor lord with no land or subjects. If the player wants to start as middle to high end nobility they have to start level 1 as an aristocrat although they're welcome to pick something better every other level. (A DM can declare any PC to have noble bloodlines if its part of the story.) Of course players can't put themselves in places NPCs are already taking up. Which means that a player couldn't normally roll up the King of Gellony because the DM has already stuck an NPC in that slot most likely.

[Yuki Akuma]

Alternatively, classes do not exist in the game world and are merely a game construct to facilitate differences in training, background and such. :smallwink:

[MesiDoomstalker]

Alternatively, classes do not exist in the game world and are merely a game construct to facilitate differences in training, background and such. :smallwink:

This. 3.5 is 3.5, not 2E.

[Seharvepernfan]

Miracles.

...

They're not ALL flying ALL the time. Notice how their settlements are typically built into the sides of cliffs and run up and down inside the cliff face?
Most raptorans don't fly, but they can glide from a higher level to a lower level. Nothing says that they all fly everywhere.

Aren't they good at climbing too?

[sonofzeal]

What makes you think our hypothetical punching bag has 10 con? I was thinking 6-7 (which you would expect a few people in any given town to have).
That just seems unnecessarily contrived to me. Few enough people are going to have that low Con, because in a medival peasant society I wouldn't expect them to survive out of childhood.

That is, if we expect D&D to somehow be a perfect analogue of the real world.


But yes, I forgot the non-lethal thing.

So, one punch from a 10 str guy wearing a gauntlet. If he manages 3 damage and the 2 hp guy fails to stabilize, he's gone. Or, we could assume a 12 str guy wearing a gauntlet (slightly stronger than average) delivering a single punch to a 8-9 con guy (slightly less resilient than average) getting that same 3 damage roll with a gauntlet.

Point is, it's absurd, and the same solution to this problem (assuming adult commoners to be at least level 2-3) also solves the Raptoran issue (since a society of people with the culture Raptorans are supposed to have who are almost entirely 5th level is no longer considered outlandish).
There's plenty of things in D&D that are absurd from a real-world perspective, but I think this is a relatively minor one. People can and do die from getting hit with chunks of metal in the wrong places, even just once. A punch from a gauntlet to the back of the head, or even to the chest if it ruptures a kidney, can quite easily be lethal. On the other hand, most of the time brass knuckles are used in film and media, it's with an intent to wound instead of kill (and hence is being used for nonlethal damage), and even if not then the damage is low enough that most PCs could take a bit of a pounding even at low level.

You're right that there's still some inconsistencies here, and I'm hardly going to argue that D&D weapons are in any way kin to their real world equivalents, but you really seem to have picked an awkward point to make your stand on.



Miracles.
THANK you! I had a bet going about how many posts before someone used that word. Turns out, far longer than I expected! GitP, I am disappoint.

[Coidzor]

and while you could run a game assuming all adults have several levels its not the way the game was designed or assumed to work.

You'd need to show how that's at all relevant to anything though. Certainly doesn't seem to have much bearing on the rest of the game beyond delaying the point at which PCs can pretty much decide to kill an entire settlement on a whim with no real immediate danger from doing so.


a club is even less deadly it dosent change the fact that arguing every one must be level 2 so they cant get knocked out with a single punch is pointless because that's more believable then the fact you cant be killed or even knocked out by a short sword unless he hits you in a extremly vital location.

...What exactly are you thinking of that should kill someone but doesn't count as either a very grievous blow (say, burying the whole thing in someone's gut) or a very vital location (heart, neck, kidneys/brain)?

Generally speaking, a hit is not necessarily something like stabbing half of the blade into someone's pancreas.

OP: Alternatively, Raptorans are tribal because of judicious layering of the Apprentice and Mentor feats.

Considering that it does state that a mentor can have multiple apprentices, but PCs should only have one for ease of bookkeeping, you could even have it such that Raptorans all begin life as schoolmarms until they've leveled up enough that they've helped the next generation get their start.

And since apprentices are generated with the elite array, raptorans are even more suitable to PC classes than other humanoids, and because they're all generated in that manner, they all have the feat and become mentors in their own right.

Bonus points if after a few levels under general mentorship, they actually pair off with a solo mentor-mate whose cohort they become.

[gkathellar]

Miracles.

I'm glad someone made that joke. It saves me the shame of doing so.

No, but seriously, this is probably right. The fact that most Raptorans can't fly until 10th level is already a bizarre game abstraction that doesn't make any sense. I mean, what kind of species gains the ability to flap its wings harder on becoming a sufficiently powerful wizard?

So ... yeah, miracles and magic be all up in these raptorans.

[awa]

a crit. an extremely vital location is a crit. an average level 3 commoner wont go down from a hand ax unless its a crit. so less then 5% percent of the time getting stabbed wont kill or even incapacitate which is just as unrealistic as getting knocked out with a punch.

just look a t the level demographics or the average npcs they assume level 1 is the most common level for adults

[Yuki Akuma]

HP is an abstraction.

If you kill someone with a hit, you hit them in a vital area. If you wound someone with a hit, you might have hit them in a less vital area... or not even hit them at all. 1 hp of damage is not equal to every other 1 hp of damage.

When you get a critical hit, that doesn't mean its any less more accurate than normal - just that it's more damaging to the game-abstraction of HP. You might have knocked them off-balance, meaning their 'HP through dodging' doesn't apply as well, or you could have stabbed them somewhere soft and caused them to bleed out, or whatever you want to narrate it as.

A level 20 character cannot take twenty more swords to the gut than a level 1 character. He's just better at avoiding getting hit in any lasting way.

Edit: Less? What? How did I typo the exact opposite of what I meant?!

[Anarchy_Kanya]

A level 20 character cannot take twenty more swords to the gut than a level 1 character. He's just better at avoiding getting hit in any lasting way.
He can, if that's the type of game you're running.

[NNescio]

HA level 20 character cannot take twenty more swords to the gut than a level 1 character. He's just better at avoiding getting hit in any lasting way.

He can also trudge through knee-deep lava and survive 5000-ft high falls.

[Yuki Akuma]

Real humans can survive falls at terminal velocity.

The lava thing... is a bit sillier. But.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Real humans can survive falls at terminal velocity.

The lava thing... is a bit sillier. But.

...totally worth dredging through 19 levels of fighter. Till you realize the Wizard could do it at 9th without even singing his robes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

...totally worth dredging through 19 levels of fighter. Till you realize the Wizard could do it at 9th without even singing his robes.

*bets*

I'll say the fighter lasts three rounds, and that's with a fancy trinket to enhance his toughness. Items that give fire resistance or immunity are not allowed, and race is human.

Although he can still move 60 feet through lava before getting to the dangerous levels, assuming nothing's weighing him down (half speed, double move).

[Psyren]

*bets*

I'll say the fighter lasts four rounds, and that's with a fancy trinket to enhance his toughness. Items that give fire resistance or immunity are not allowed, and race is human.

24 seconds in lava is still 23 seconds more than most people can stand.

[Coidzor]

A level 20 character cannot take twenty more swords to the gut than a level 1 character. He's just better at avoiding getting hit in any lasting way.

I think you're forgetting that level 20 hp-bucket types are on the same playing field as Gilgamesh, Herakles, and such. :smallconfused: By that point it kinda breaks down as to how one can model it, really.

[gkathellar]

^This is a wise man, and we should listen to him.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think you're forgetting that level 20 hp-bucket types are on the same playing field as Gilgamesh, Herakles, and such. :smallconfused: By that point it kinda breaks down as to how one can model it, really.

In D&D, Herakles is a level 40 demigod. :smallwink:

[Hiro Protagonest]

24 seconds in lava is still 23 seconds more than most people can stand.
See my edit.

In D&D, Herakles is a level 40 demigod. :smallwink:

That was after he almost died (but not quite) and was raised on his burning pyre to Olympus to help beat the giants.

Of course, Percy beat Ares by catching him flat-footed after fending off his assault, so Olympian gods are overrated, except for the three brothers. Although Ares wasn't wearing any armor.

[Seharvepernfan]

24 seconds in lava is still 24 seconds more than most people can stand.

Fixed that for you.

[Seharvepernfan]

24 seconds in lava is still 24 seconds more than most people can stand.

Fixed that for you.

Anyways, I think a lot of you just are seeing the picture here. So what if a race with wings can't fly until 10th level? They're basically humans, they don't actually need to fly. Their wings might be vestigial to some extent. Look at all the stuff a human body/mind is capable of, that most of us can't do without extensive training and experience (or will, etc.). Stuff that we are capable of that we don't need to actually be able to do.

Again, I think raptorans are just fine.

Also, with regards to hp, humans can survive and even heal some pretty crazy wounds. Bruce lee broke his back, was told he would never walk, and was back to being the worlds biggest badass in what, weeks? months? We can take a bullet through the brain and get back up and keep going. We can fall out of airplanes and survive.

Champion powerlifters have bones as strong as steel in some cases, scar tissue is stronger than the skin it used to be, broken bones grow back stronger, the more shock you survive the better you get at taking shock, etc. We get tougher through damage.

I'm okay with the hp system too.

and...um, the lava thing....how many 20th level fighters have their ever been on earth? Zero? So there is some defense against not surviving it, but I agree its impossible. It'd just cook your insides instantly, I think that 20d6 does not do immersion in lava justice.

[gkathellar]

Humans get a bonus feat and extra skill points, while Raptorans do not. Ergo, they're not exactly the mental equals of human beings.

[MesiDoomstalker]

*bets*

I'll say the fighter lasts three rounds, and that's with a fancy trinket to enhance his toughness. Items that give fire resistance or immunity are not allowed, and race is human.

Although he can still move 60 feet through lava before getting to the dangerous levels, assuming nothing's weighing him down (half speed, double move).

20th level fighter, say starting con 14, +6 item, +5 book, and +5 from level bumps. So a final Con of 30, mod of +10. Using average rolls for the last 19 levels comes to an average HP of 314.

Total immersion is 20d6 per round or 70 HP a round on average. So an average fighter 20, maxing Con, could survive on average 4 rounds, or 24 seconds, before being at risk of death.

Now lets see take a Venerable 13th level Human Wizard with a Con of 1. So his HP is 13, no way around it. Casts Energy Immunity (SpC) targeting fire. Strolls through lava without caring. The same wizard can do it at 3rd with Resist Energy because any kind of energy resistance to fire makes you immune to lava-based fire damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#lavaEffects)

Theres a reason Wizards are tier 1. A Cleric or Druid could cast Energy Immunity at 11th, they have it as a 6th level spell. They are tier 1 as well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Anyways, I think a lot of you just are seeing the picture here. So what if a race with wings can't fly until 10th level? They're basically humans, they don't actually need to fly. Their wings might be vestigial to some extent. Look at all the stuff a human body/mind is capable of, that most of us can't do without extensive training and experience (or will, etc.). Stuff that we are capable of that we don't need to actually be able to do.

I'm talking about the fluff and crunch not meshing. If their wings were supposed to be vestigial features, and flight using them was a sort of unlocking-lost-potential, it would be best modeled with feats. And all of the fluff surrounding Raptorans points to them being very flight-oriented. They build vertical cities, play flying lacrosse- heck, they invented cargo kites (quite badass, in my opinion).

[Psyren]

Conclusion, Raptorans are a rather silly race that only function in a world that has more mid to high level NPC's than many DM's are comfortable with.

ECL 5 is "mid to high level" now? :smallconfused:

Also, they're a society of hunters. The DMG states that communities that are used to combat will have higher-level NPCs.

[Coidzor]

Fixed that for you.

considering most of us burst into flames before contact, yeah.

[flumphy]

I'm talking about the fluff and crunch not meshing. If their wings were supposed to be vestigial features, and flight using them was a sort of unlocking-lost-potential, it would be best modeled with feats. And all of the fluff surrounding Raptorans points to them being very flight-oriented. They build vertical cities, play flying lacrosse- heck, they invented cargo kites (quite badass, in my opinion).

Humans have built vertical cities in real life, in places where there just wasn't a better option. Humans have also invented spaceships, and they take pleasure in watching professional ice hockey.

That doesn't mean most humans are astronauts or hockey players.

Now, I agree that there is an unintended fluff and crunch dissonance in the case of raptorans, but I don't think making all of them higher-level is the only logical way to fix it.

[NeoSeraphi]

It's simple. All raptorans are level 5 or above. This, combined with their limited natural flight and their tendency to be both clerics and awesome skypledges means that they actually take over most D&D worlds with hurricanes when the PCs aren't looking. :smallbiggrin:

[MesiDoomstalker]

It's simple. All raptorans are level 5 or above. This, combined with their limited natural flight and their tendency to be both clerics and awesome skypledges means that they actually take over most D&D worlds with hurricanes when the PCs aren't looking. :smallbiggrin:

This. Raptoran's are the superior race, all others will bow down if they mobolize. But Raptoran's are awesome. They don't go around conquering each other and other humanoids. They're just chill and tend to themselves. Leave pointless wars to the other humanoid filth. :smallamused:

[NeoSeraphi]

This. Raptoran's are the superior race, all others will bow down if they mobolize. But Raptoran's are awesome. They don't go around conquering each other and other humanoids. They're just chill and tend to themselves. Leave pointless wars to the other humanoid filth. :smallamused:

Come to think of it, why does this site not have a Raptoran Fan Club? :smallconfused:

[MesiDoomstalker]

Come to think of it, why does this site not have a Raptoran Fan Club? :smallconfused:

It really should. I'd totally join.

[Yuki Akuma]

This. Raptoran's are the superior race, all others will bow down if they mobolize. But Raptoran's are awesome. They don't go around conquering each other and other humanoids. They're just chill and tend to themselves. Leave pointless wars to the other humanoid filth. :smallamused:

Nah, sorry, human subraces and strongheart halflings as still better.

That bonus feat is really awesome.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Nah, sorry, human subraces and strongheart halflings as still better.

That bonus feat is really awesome.

Besides the fact I wasn't arguing game terms I was also talking a out attitude and joking at that. But Raptorans are still awesome-Incarnate.

[Coidzor]

Come to think of it, why does this site not have a Raptoran Fan Club? :smallconfused:

These posts would sum up why.


This. Raptoran's are the superior race, all others will bow down if they mobolize. But Raptoran's are awesome. They don't go around conquering each other and other humanoids. They're just chill and tend to themselves. Leave pointless wars to the other humanoid filth. :smallamused:


It's simple. All raptorans are level 5 or above. This, combined with their limited natural flight and their tendency to be both clerics and awesome skypledges means that they actually take over most D&D worlds with hurricanes when the PCs aren't looking. :smallbiggrin:


Nah, sorry, human subraces and strongheart halflings as still better.

That bonus feat is really awesome.

After all, everyone knows Tippy is a Human Archmage.

[Yuki Akuma]

Besides the fact I wasn't arguing game terms I was also talking a out attitude and joking at that. But Raptorans are still awesome-Incarnate.

I was joking too. :smallwink:

Humans are just overpowered when they have no reason to be, other than the fact that the writers are human (we assume).

[MesiDoomstalker]

I really wish I knew how to make a group on here, I'd totally make a Raptoran Fan Flock.

[NeoSeraphi]

I really wish I knew how to make a group on here, I'd totally make a Raptoran Fan Flock.

It's easy! Just post a thread in the 3.5 section saying "Raptoran Fan Flock!" and all of us will join! (If you post it, they will come)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Created (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12145733#post12145733)! All Raptoran lovers are welcome.

[DeltaEmil]

Huh? I could have sworn that even someone without Improved Unarmed Strike can deal lethal damage by taking a -4 to hit, which I think provokes attacks of opportunity.

Never mind, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike)saves the day again. People unproficient with their fists provoke AoO from throwing punches, as I expected, but there's no lethal damage clause. Weird, I don't think I would have made up a rule like that without seeing it somewhere. Maybe I'm going crazy. that is to say, crazier than usualThe rules for dealing lethal damage with weapons that normally deal nonlethal damage are found here.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm

The explanation also specifically mentions unarmed strike.

So yes, if you are unarmed and do not have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can still punch a person dead.