A monk almost-fix (3.5 feats)

[enderlord99]

Greater Ascetic Hunter

requires Ascetic Hunter
allows monk and ranger levels to stack for favored enemy in addition to the other stuff


Greater Tashalatora

requires Tashalatora
allows Monk and (Chosen Psionic Class) levels to stack for PP, Max Power Level, and ML (in addition to the other stuff)


Greater Ascetic Rogue

Requires Ascetic Rogue
Allows Monk and Rogue levels to stack for SA

[nonsi]

Greater Tashalatora seems quite powerful.
It should require several Monk levels to avoid the cheese.

But for a single player campaign, unless I missed something, you could combine all of them to produce a true Swiss-army-knife - one that will make Batman look like a one-trick-pony. It will just cost you all your character-level feats.

[enderlord99]

But for a single player campaign, unless I missed something, you could combine all of them to produce a true Swiss-army-knife - one that will make Batman look like a one-trick-pony. It will just cost you all your character-level feats.

That is exactly what I was hoping for!:smallbiggrin:

Thanks!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Seems like what the feats should have done from the beginning, rather than only advancing monk abilities.

[Ziegander]

But for a single player campaign, unless I missed something, you could combine all of them to produce a true Swiss-army-knife - one that will make Batman look like a one-trick-pony. It will just cost you all your character-level feats.

How so? What am I missing? So you're a Monk 17/Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Ardent 1 with sneak attack like a Rogue 20, Favored Enemy like a Ranger 20, and manifesting like an Ardent 20. That sounds great until you realize that you've traded 7 feats and 4 mantles for that over a normal Ardent 20. Since it's not even strictly superior to a straight Ardent 20 build, how is this making Batman look like a one-trick-pony?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Greater Tashalatora

requires Tashalatora
allows Monk and (Chosen Psionic Class) levels to stack for PP, Max Power Level, and ML (in addition to the other stuff)


Actually, just noticed- this needs clarifying. I'm not too familiar with Tashalatora, but you should specify what "other stuff" is.

[Zeta Kai]

But for a single player campaign, unless I missed something, you could combine all of them to produce a true Swiss-army-knife - one that will make Batman look like a one-trick-pony. It will just cost you all your character-level feats.

I'd say that 7 feats is a sufficient (perhaps even exorbitant) price to pay for that level of power. After all, certain classes get that kind of versatility for free.

[enderlord99]

Actually, just noticed- this needs clarifying. I'm not too familiar with Tashalatora, but you should specify what "other stuff" is.

The stuff Tashalatora already grants. I suppose it doesn't need to be mentioned, seeing as it... is already granted.

[nonsi]

I'd say that 7 feats is a sufficient (perhaps even exorbitant) price to pay for that level of power. After all, certain classes get that kind of versatility for free.

FoB + SA + FE + effective stunning fist + good skill capacity (especially with Able Learner) + full manifester level.

I don't know of any base class that grants all of these.


@Ziegander - Yes, we all know spells & powers trump skills & melee by magnitudes, but you can't use them all the time, and, AFAIK, the vast majority of matamagic & metapsionic feats revolve around more power, not new options. This guy may not be the heaviest cannon around, but off the top of my head, I can't think of a situation where he would stand in the corner twiddling his thumbs because he wouldn't have anything to do - neither because of lack of option nor because he used them up.

[Ziegander]

This guy may not be the heaviest cannon around, but off the top of my head, I can't think of a situation where he would stand in the corner twiddling his thumbs because he wouldn't have anything to do - neither because of lack of option nor because he used them up.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to imply that the resultant character wasn't powerful - he's no slouch. Though he will be tedious and awkward to play at low and mid levels because the build takes a long time to mature.

[nonsi]

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to imply that the resultant character wasn't powerful - he's no slouch. Though he will be tedious and awkward to play at low and mid levels because the build takes a long time to mature.

True, but if you prioritise Greater Tashalatora - that's where the primary versatility lies and until the other class-combo feats are obtained, you could use psionics to bolster the character's combat prowess.

[enderlord99]

FoB + SA + FA + effective stunniing fist + good skill capacity (especially with Able Learner) + full manifester level.

I don't know of any base class that grants all of these.

Wow. Did I just bump the monk up to tier 1? With just 3 somewhat overpowered feats? Awesome!:smallbiggrin:

[Zeta Kai]

Wow. Did I just bump the monk up to tier 1? With just 3 somewhat overpowered feats? Awesome!:smallbiggrin:

Well, I wouldn't go that far. For one thing, the Wizard is still flying over your head, raining down chain-gated solars, while the Druid is still unleashing hordes of bear-related madness. For another, feats don't have an impact on class tiers, no matter how overpowered they may be; these are nice, but the chassis that your building upon is still subpar. Also, in order to use your feats, the Monk has to take other less powerful feats, which make this a less obvious choice. Don't get me wrong, taking all three might make for a competitive build, but that's not the whole story.

[Yitzi]

You haven't really fixed an underpowered class until taking 20 levels in it and closely associated prestige classes is a halfway viable (if not optimized) build. This is all based on multiclassing the monk, so I'd say it's nowhere near an almost-fix for the monk.

Even if it's overpowered, that just makes it a multiclass-monk fix, not a true monk fix.

[nonsi]

You haven't really fixed an underpowered class until taking 20 levels in it and closely associated prestige classes is a halfway viable (if not optimized) build. This is all based on multiclassing the monk, so I'd say it's nowhere near an almost-fix for the monk.

Even if it's overpowered, that just makes it a multiclass-monk fix, not a true monk fix.

If you're looking for a decent Monk fix that preserves the fluff of a mystic martial artist, you might find my version interesting.
It's a sort of gestalt betweem the core Monk and the CAdv Ninja, but with quite a few extras.

[Yitzi]

If you're looking for a decent Monk fix that preserves the fluff of a mystic martial artist, you might find my version interesting.
It's a sort of gestalt betweem the core Monk and the CAdv Ninja, but with quite a few extras.

If that's the one linked in your sig, I've just looked at it, and it seems pretty good...it's definitely different enough that I'd classify it as a "remix" rather than a "fix", though.

The real problem he has (which I'll admit my idea for a monk remix has too) is that his offense is weak enough that the enemies can just save him for last and ignore him while dealing with others. Gentle Touch and using Ki Heal on others deal with this issue somewhat, but probably not by enough. Have any ideas? (The real problem is that the essence of a monk is perfection of the self, so his abilities tend to focus on himself, meaning that they're defensive.)

[nonsi]

The real problem he has (which I'll admit my idea for a monk remix has too) is that his offense is weak enough that the enemies can just save him for last and ignore him while dealing with others. Gentle Touch and using Ki Heal on others deal with this issue somewhat, but probably not by enough. Have any ideas? (The real problem is that the essence of a monk is perfection of the self, so his abilities tend to focus on himself, meaning that they're defensive.)

You missed several key offensive abilities.
Re-read: Ki Strike (especially in conjunction with the codex' tweak to magical plusses and DR), Channeled Ki, Ghost Strike, Metabolism Control, Temporal Ki Surge and the unarmed strike comments just below the Monk's table.
All the above mesh together to make the class an entirely different ball player on the battlefield.
Now go to entry #2, choose your desired Wuxia feats and see if you happen to have changed your mind.

[gkathellar]

Greater Tashalatora seems quite powerful.
It should require several Monk levels to avoid the cheese.

Not really. It doesn't do all that much unless you intend to take more Monk levels than the norm, and while it's worth it for the standard Monk 2/PsyWar 18, it's not absolutely essential.

So, exactly as powerful as a feat should be.


But for a single player campaign, unless I missed something, you could combine all of them to produce a true Swiss-army-knife - one that will make Batman look like a one-trick-pony. It will just cost you all your character-level feats.

Emphasis mine.

Huhwhuh? The only way I can begin to rationalize this comment is if you're talking about comic book Batman.

[Yitzi]

You missed several key offensive abilities.
Re-read: Ki Strike (especially in conjunction with the codex' tweak to magical plusses and DR)

Anyone trying to overwhelm sizable DR will be using mainly Power Attack or sneak attack, both of which seem to not multiply DR. It can be useful in rare cases, but I don't see it making him a notable threat to the typical enemy.


Channeled Ki

So he can use his not-so-impressive-against-most-enemies abilities with a normal weapon. Still doesn't seem like something to make him a notable threat to the typical enemy.


Ghost Strike

So he's good against incorporeal enemies, but what about everyone else?


Metabolism Control

Other than the haste ability (which is nice but doesn't really seem enough), that's a defensive ability, which makes him less likely to be targeted.


Temporal Ki Surge

That actually might work...the concept of using action economy to give the monk a decent threat value makes a lot of sense.


and the unarmed strike comments just below the Monk's table.

Those can be somewhat useful, but unless you're willing to go extremely heavy MAD it just shores up his weaknesses (using a light weapon and having too many abilities to focus on if he has to use STR and DEX for attack.)

Now go to entry #2, choose your desired Wuxia feats and see if you happen to have changed your mind.[/QUOTE]

I have no desired Wuxia feats; I don't have any Wuxia books.
But the speed-boost abilities should do the job.

[nonsi]

Anyone trying to overwhelm sizable DR will be using mainly Power Attack or sneak attack

This one's Ki Strike actually grants hit & damage bonuses.




Those can be somewhat useful, but unless you're willing to go extremely heavy MAD it just shores up his weaknesses (using a light weapon and having too many abilities to focus on if he has to use STR and DEX for attack.)

Wis-mod to hit & damage - how's that being MAD? Together with Ki Strike (magic) you'd end up with at least +14 to hit & damage beyond the core Monk (I mean, you WILL push Wis to at least 28 by level 20, won't you?)
As for Str + Dex - magical items help you know.




I have no desired Wuxia feats; I don't have any Wuxia books.
But the speed-boost abilities should do the job.
[/QUOTE]
Again: Entry #2 >> Feats >> New Feats >> Wuxia (Ki Feats).
Open the spoilers and check out those feats.

[Yitzi]

This one's Ki Strike actually grants hit & damage bonuses.

Only as if it were a magic weapon...it just puts him on par with everyone else in that regard.


Wis-mod to hit & damage - how's that being MAD?

If he's just using Wis-mod, it's not. But if he's going to try to take advantage of it being on top of STR and DEX mod, then you get MAD.


Together with Ki Strike (magic) you'd end up with at least +14 to hit & damage beyond the core Monk

Oh, it's definitely more offensively powerful than the core monk, and is in fact a pretty decent class in terms of overall power. The problem is that (at least without the action economy abilities) he's still offensively substantially weaker than a fighter of the same level, and while he's got a decent magical defense to compensate in terms of power, a smart enemy can simply save him for last.


As for Str + Dex - magical items help you know.

Point. So I could see him being enough of a threat through that.


Again: Entry #2 >> Feats >> New Feats >> Wuxia (Ki Feats).
Open the spoilers and check out those feats.

Yeah, the toxin and dispel magic will help increase his threat rating.

Ok, I see how he doesn't have that problem.