Familiars and Wands

[Elboxo]

I was just reading through Dictum Mortuum's Familiar Handbook and it states that if a familiar can speak (common/Correct Language) then it can activate wands.

So what kinds of wands? Arcane or Divine? Or does it depend on the familiar?

I was mainly thinking of Improved Familiar and getting an Imp

[Gamer Girl]

In order to use a wand, you need to have the spell the wand can use on your spell list. A familiar does not have a spell list.

[Flickerdart]

Any kind of wands it wants, provided its master has UMD. It has no spell lost of its own, and does not benefit from its master's.

[Elboxo]

Any kind of wands it wants, provided its master has UMD. It has no spell lost of its own, and does not benefit from its master's.

It doesn't benefit from the master's spell list?

..... so they can't use wands?

[umbergod]

It doesn't benefit from the master's spell list?

..... so they can't use wands?

then can, when you get someone to cast psychic reformation on your familiar so you can allocate its skill points and feats as you see fit, maxing out its UMD and giving it SF:UMD

[Andreaz]

It doesn't benefit from the master's spell list?

..... so they can't use wands?

Which is why the master needs a good Use Magic Device rating. The familiar can then use the wands through UMD. At that point nothing else is necessary.
Also remember they can use magic items of all sorts, so give them a +UMD item along with a basic survival kit.

[Yuki Akuma]

then can, when you get someone to cast psychic reformation on your familiar so you can allocate its skill points and feats as you see fit, maxing out its UMD and giving it SF:UMD

Familiars don't have skill points or feats.

... Well, they do. But not many. Their max ranks in Use Magic Device are four, unless they're an advanced familiar with more than one hit die.

[umbergod]

Familiars don't have skill points or feats.

... Well, they do. But not many. Their max ranks in Use Magic Device are four, unless they're an advanced familiar with more than one hit die.

imp/quasit/pseudodragon have racial HD, so a higher base max in UMD, then skill focus UMD adds another +3. throw in a custom crafted +UMD item and you have a wand monkey to sit on your shoulder and cackle while casting spells through a wand

[Hirax]

Skills

For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars)

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[HunterOfJello]

Skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars)

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Exactly.

This is why all bards and Factotums need to grab Obtain Familiar and put a bunch of skill points into UMD. Then their Raven familiar can provide backup in battle.

[Flickerdart]

Sorry, but a parrot is many times more awesome than a raven, and a lyre bird beats both when it comes to mimicry and style. :smalltongue:

[Treblain]

Factotums can't take Obtain Familiar, can they? They aren't arcane casters.

[Elboxo]

Factotums can't take Obtain Familiar, can they? They aren't arcane casters.

Obtain Familiar Pre-req: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, arcane caster level 3rd

Factotums: Skills: All, Arcane Dilettante : "At the start of each day, choose a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard list....your caster level equals your character level in this class..."

Bingo


I'm playing a factotum at the moment, was thinking of asking the DM if I could swap out a Font of Inspiration for Obtain familiar and then Improved familiar next level

[Elboxo]

For advancing Hit-Dice and skill points, how do you work out skills per Hit-Die progression ?

[umbergod]

For advancing Hit-Dice and skill points, how do you work out skills per Hit-Die progression ?

its w/e is typical for their type. quasit/imps have outsider HD and skills, pseudodragon has dragon HD and skills, etc, etc.

[Yuki Akuma]

For advancing Hit-Dice and skill points, how do you work out skills per Hit-Die progression ?

Familiars don't advance hit dice, so I'm not sure why you'd need to.

[umbergod]

Familiars don't advance hit dice, so I'm not sure why you'd need to.

still need to know how many skill points your improved familiar has when you get it psychically reformed

[Hirax]

Why are you piddling with psychic reformation? Are there sorcerers/wizards that don't load ranks into UMD?

[umbergod]

Why are you piddling with psychic reformation? Are there sorcerers/wizards that don't load ranks into UMD?

quite a few. youd be surprised how many DMs use point buy, and as a sorcerer, you have ****all for skill points as base, and int isnt an overly important stat for them.

[Yuki Akuma]

quite a few. youd be surprised how many DMs use point buy, and as a sorcerer, you have ****all for skill points as base, and int isnt an overly important stat for them.

And what skills, exactly, does a Sorcerer need?

[umbergod]

And what skills, exactly, does a Sorcerer need?

concentration, and spellcraft off the top of my head, possibly knowledge arcana as well if you plan to get into any PrCs

[Yuki Akuma]

Neither of those skills are absolutely required for a Sorcerer to function. Wizards need Spellcraft to learn spells, but Sorcerers don't.

Concentration is only needed if you get hit while casting a spell, which is something you should be avoiding anyway. :smallwink:

[umbergod]

Neither of those skills are absolutely required for a Sorcerer to function. Wizards need Spellcraft to learn spells, but Sorcerers don't.

Concentration is only needed if you get hit while casting a spell, which is something you should be avoiding anyway. :smallwink:

cant always avoid being hit, or put in a position where youre forced to make concentration checks, spellcraft makes it possible to identify and counter spells being cast against you. and again, idk any arcane PrC that doesnt require knowledge arcana. even if you let those skills slide with bare minimums, youre gonna get, what, 5 ranks in UMD, tops? 3-4 skill ranks per level isnt all that great, unless you happen to have a DM that gives UMD as a class skill to sorcerers, which I think they should get anyways

[Hirax]

UMD is going to be at the top of a sorcerer's skill list due to their otherwise limited spell selection.

[umbergod]

UMD is going to be at the top of a sorcerer's skill list due to their otherwise limited spell selection.

and if they use point buy the rest of their stats are going to suck, meaning unless they have an overly nice DM, they arent gonna survive to get much use out of UMD

[Yuki Akuma]

The DC to use a wand is 20. That's it - just 20. With five ranks, a -1 ability modifier (most familiars have below-average Charisma), and a +5 competence bonus item (let's ignore 'masterwork tools' for now), your familiar has a 45% chance of making that check.

And if you ever get above level 7, you'll have more ranks in UMD.

As for stats, Sorcerers need Charisma. That's really it. Maybe Dex if they're going to be making ranged touch attacks. Con is nice. Everything else can be dumped freely.

A 12 Int isn't expensive.

[umbergod]

The DC to use a wand is 20. That's it - just 20. With five ranks, a -1 ability modifier (most familiars have below-average Charisma), and a +5 competence bonus item (let's ignore 'masterwork tools' for now), your familiar has a 45% chance of making that check.

And if you ever get above level 7, you'll have more ranks in UMD.

>.> awwwh hell, stupid DDO has me thinking wand activation scaled with the spell level. ignore me then XD

and while a 12 in int is easy, that only nets you 3 points per level, unless youre a human. still gonna need ranks in the 3 skills i mentioned, at the very least spellcraft and arcana for PrC qualifications. but yes, I forgot wand is only a 20. oh well, my dms allow UMD as a class skill for sorcerers so :P

[Flickerdart]

and if they use point buy the rest of their stats are going to suck, meaning unless they have an overly nice DM, they arent gonna survive to get much use out of UMD
Quite incorrect. Sorcerers, like all high tier classes, are SAD, meaning they can afford to put loads and loads of points into Constitution should they desire to survive. A Sorcerer on 32PB can easily have as much Constitution as a Fighter, meaning that they are only 6 hit points behind at level one, with only a 3 hit point lag per level thereafter, to a grand total of sixty-six hit points at level 20, which is utterly insignificant. When you remember that the Fighter's job is to stand in front of things that want to kill him, you will find that the one with the higher HP count is more often than not the one low on HP.

But what's all this got to do with skills?

Edit: Also, hey, if you want skill points, take Nymph's Kiss. Though Sorcerers have absolutely no use for any skill, really, since nobody expects them to be the knowledge monkey, Spellcraft is largely useless outside counterspell builds, and Concentration is, as mentioned, for people who spend a lot of their time with a sword betwixt their ribs.

[Yuki Akuma]

and while a 12 in int is easy, that only nets you 3 points per level, unless youre a human. still gonna need ranks in the 3 skills i mentioned, at the very least spellcraft and arcana for PrC qualifications. but yes, I forgot wand is only a 20. oh well, my dms allow UMD as a class skill for sorcerers so :P

You do not need ranks in those skills. You do not need those skills. You can get by perfectly well without them.

You do not need to take a prestige class. Sorcerer 20 is perfectly awesome on its own.

[Hirax]

but yes, I forgot wand is only a 20. oh well, my dms allow UMD as a class skill for sorcerers so :P

It always confuses me why it wasn't. WotC really must have thought spontaneous casters were much more powerful than they really are.

[Psyren]

It always confuses me why it wasn't. WotC really must have thought spontaneous casters were much more powerful than they really are.

Both Sorcerers and Wilders got it in Pathfinder. :smallwink:

(Though they nerfed the "psicrystals gain HD" thing.)

[umbergod]

You do not need ranks in those skills. You do not need those skills. You can get by perfectly well without them.

You do not need to take a prestige class. Sorcerer 20 is perfectly awesome on its own.

sorcerer 20 is pretty unoptimized and not all that good, you get nothing as you level up, which is why most everyone opts for a PrC asap if they play a sorcerer.


It always confuses me why it wasn't. WotC really must have thought spontaneous casters were much more powerful than they really are.

I agree, when in practice, Wizards and the like far outpace the spontaneous casters.

[Psyren]

sorcerer 20 is pretty unoptimized and not all that good, you get nothing as you level up, which is why most everyone opts for a PrC asap if they play a sorcerer.

Sorcerer 20 is only "not all that good" when you compare it to T1, which means "staggeringly good, if bland" in absolute terms.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sorcerer 20 is better than the grand majority of builds for most other classes. Sorcerers are amazingly good - you do not need to optimise them in most games.

[umbergod]

Sorcerer 20 is better than the grand majority of builds for most other classes. Sorcerers are amazingly good - you do not need to optimise them in most games.

I suppose, I only ever opt to play a sorcerer b/c my usual DMs are fond of spellbook snatching shenanigans, and a sorcerer is easier to manage with limited spells

[Hirax]

Straight sorcerer20 could mailman any non-caster into oblivion, but I do agree that prcing out ASAP is the best course of action for sorcerers. Getting class features is better than not getting class features. Plus plenty of good prcs, such as abjurant champion, have no skill requirements.

[umbergod]

Straight sorcerer20 could mailman any non-caster into oblivion, but I do agree that prcing out ASAP is the best course of action for sorcerers. Getting class features is better than not getting class features. Plus plenty of good prcs, such as abjurant champion, have no skill requirements.

true, and Abjurant Champion is the definition of awesome for any kind of caster.

[Elboxo]

I love it when threads stay on topic

The reason I was asking about Hit-Die/Skill point progression was because of wondering if you level up and allocate skills that aren't on your familiar's skill list, do they gain their own number of skill points to put ranks into their skills? Or would a skill, that the master does NOT put another point into, stay the same?

Thanks for all the help so far guys, BUT

I'm still confused as to how an Imp Familiar would activate a wand without the spell on its spell list; "Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell." - Quoted from Spell Trigger activation

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion

So since the Imp does not have Lesser Vigor on its spell list, it cannot activate the wand, right? Could someone explain to me why people are saying you can?

[Hirax]

So since the Imp does not have Lesser Vigor on its spell list, it cannot activate the wand, right? Could someone explain to me why people are saying you can?

If you have the spell on your list, you don't need to make a UMD check. If you don't have the spell on your list, you need to make a UMD check of 20. If you can hit 20 on UMD every time, you can use a wand successfully every time you try.

[Elboxo]

If you have the spell on your list, you don't need to make a UMD check. If you don't have the spell on your list, you need to make a UMD check of 20. If you can hit 20 on UMD every time, you can use a wand successfully every time you try.

Oh my god /facepalm

I'd totally forgotten that...........
xD

Thank you!

[Yuki Akuma]

I love it when threads stay on topic

The reason I was asking about Hit-Die/Skill point progression was because of wondering if you level up and allocate skills that aren't on your familiar's skill list, do they gain their own number of skill points to put ranks into their skills? Or would a skill, that the master does NOT put another point into, stay the same?

Familiars keep the skills they had at first level, and never change them. They have a special ability that lets them use their master's skill ranks, but they keep their own skills. Their own skills are listed in their entries in the Monster Manual.

They don't ever gain skill points from their master levelling up, because they don't gain hit dice.

[Andreaz]

Familiars don't advance at all, as Yuki said. They use your skills or their own, but since they don't advance, their own skills remain the same forever.
Everything they get is actually you being awesome.