Army Stopping

[Seffbasilisk]

Lets say an army of Red Dragons is approaching, using orcs, hill giants, and trolls as fodder.

At least 200 red dragons, many many more orcs. Units of 30+ hill giants. Trolls simply as opportunistic foes.

I'm playing a level 20 Sorcerer, I have similar or higher level cleric and druid support. I'm trying to stop them attacking a dwarven city without decimating their numbers too greatly.

I've seen Illithids in game, they've attacked, and I figure we'll need the dragons against them or some greater ally (we've higher connections that state we need the dragons.)

Assuming we have access to almost any spell of 9th level or lower, on any divine list, and one of the sorcerer list. I'm looking to stop this army, but be functional after.

I was considering a Sphere of Ultimate Destruction as my last 9th level spell, using Disintegration finesse to make it more intimidating, and careful use to cull the dragons, impose maximum chaos for minimum damage and try to dissuade them from attacking.

Any better ideas? Divine spells preferred.

[Godskook]

What age category of dragon are we talking about here?

[Seffbasilisk]

Adult at the least.

My sorcerer has cut down 13 personally and had assists in at least another ten more. Three to four more confirmed kills, and one my sorc transmuted to stone.

When we do broad-scale things like dominating, the Great Wyrm commanding uses a Wish spell to counter.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Focus on the great wyrm to take it down. Do you have Shivering Touch? Because a Maximized Shivering Touch would be an insta-win if you can get into range. Then use Mass Suggestion on the giants and younger dragons to have them all go home alive (that's how you tell it to them), and take out the rest of the dragons.

[HunterOfJello]

The druid using Control Weather when the dragons get close would be a good first step.

Antipathy cast multiple times on the area would get rid of a few of the Red Dragons that tried to get close. Sympathy cast on other areas could get the dragons to stay in one spot to attack them.

~

If you can get into a position to talk to them I'd try out some over the top Diplomancy or using Miracle to cast Glibness.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The druid using Control Weather when the dragons get close would be a good first step.

Look at the casting time.

[HunterOfJello]

Look at the casting time.

I was writing when Seffbasilisk posted about how the fight had already started. Getting a list of spells that are already prepared would be good, or are they not already prepared?


There are a number of Planar Dragons that you could summon with a Gate spell. They're listed in the Draconomicon. A Great Wyrm Ethereal Dragon could be summoned. Its Summon Ethereal Cyclone ability could be devastating to the other dragons.

[Runestar]

Seems like gate is your best bet. Use them to bring in as many great wyrm pyroclastic dragons as you can (their fire immunity would help lots against fire breath spam, and the red dragons have no defense against their disintegration breath), and see how you might support them in the way of buffs/debuffs?

I am not sure how much destruction they can wrought in just 20 rounds though.

[Godskook]

It depends on how well optimized these dragons are. Adult dragons are a 'problem', but the more advanced ones are downright TPK worthy.

The great wyrm alone is capable of wiping the party, depending on how the DM plays him. From the umpteen ways he can get damage into the 1-shot territory to the fact that he's got access to epic spellcasting, you're screwed if the DM plays only this one to its capabilities.

Assuming they're not 'optimized', you still need to take out the big ones fast so that they're not a heavy influence on the long-term battle. The longer that great wyrm stays alive, the worse it goes for you.

Gating in destruction in the form outsiders who'd side with you is a good plan, a is any method by which you can dish out ~700 damage in a single round.

You need significant fire protection, preferably in the form of immunity, but if these dragons are smart you'll be facing energy substitution techniques as well, which means you'll want as many energy immunities or resistances as possible.

[Tyndmyr]

Wish is good. Also good is Mindrape. Countering that is well outside the wish safe list, and more importantly...it's FAST. The opposing great wyrm will most likely have some lag time before he discovers you've turned one. So, you can rapidly alter the flow of a given battle by forcing your opponents to kill each other.

[Randomguy]

Scry and die tactics: Even dragons have to sleep sometimes, and unconcious counts as willing, so that sets you up for dominate monster on the leader. Ghostform can help you avoid detection if paired up with invisibility, since it makes you immune to non-visual forms of detection.

I second the vote on shivering touch.

Elemental immunity is a spell that makes you immune to an element for 24 hours. You may want to invest in a spellglyph staff with a few useful spells in it, to increase your repertoire.

Casting one of those spells that summons a bunch of monsters might be a good idea. Think Fierce Pride of the Beastlands or Heavenly host. Mass buff spells are also good.

Modify Memory is also good, if you can restrain a dragon somehow to cast it and make it think it was your ally for the entire time.

Cloudkill will work wonders on large groups.

Control winds could be used to stop the dragons from taking to the air, but it might not mix well with cloudkill.

[Doc Roc]

Wish is good. Also good is Mindrape. Countering that is well outside the wish safe list, and more importantly...it's FAST. The opposing great wyrm will most likely have some lag time before he discovers you've turned one. So, you can rapidly alter the flow of a given battle by forcing your opponents to kill each other.

You'll probably want to pick up a scroll of limited wish for psychic reformation. This'll let you rewrite your spell and feat list to optimize for this by moving towards Arcane Spellsurge and extremely high DCs. You'll also want a reliable way to extend the reach of your mindrape, and a reliable source for minimum-CL Mage's Disjunction. That'll let you blow away buffs while insuring all the cool-loot saves and isn't destroyed. You have to be able to reliably compromise mindblank.

The fight's already started?

Good luck.

[Retech]

Chain gate stuff?

[Doc Roc]

Chain gate stuff?

I mean, there are other options, but they end up sounding pretty similar, I think. Basically, your options are limited by the fact that you seem to have completely failed to prepare for this situation in advance.

[hex0]

Know any Metallic Dragons?

[Talentless]

How the hell are THAT many Red Dragons working together?

Just kill the Great Wyrm Dragon, or convince him to go home, and the rest will too.

Unless the DM fiat's it so that all the Red Dragons want to kill you guys (which is a little on the extremely unlikely side, or should be unless you guys actively pissed off Red Dragons left and right earlier)

Seriously, due to a Red Dragon's nature, they only work with each other due to the big boss being stronger than them and keeping him in line, remove him, and they will either go home, or start clashing with each other for control, giving you time to get rid of the rest of their army. So that when one of them finally asserts control, only the Dragons are left, so they will likely just leave too.

[Claudius Maximus]

Wish is good. Also good is Mindrape. Countering that is well outside the wish safe list, and more importantly...it's FAST.

Wish can counter Mindrape. It's a listed solution to the spell. It not clear if fixes alignment, depending on how you read it, but it can definitely undo the memory-based brainwashing. And if the dragon remembers you casting Mindrape on it, it's going to be amazingly pissed at you no matter what alignment it has.


Scry and die tactics: Even dragons have to sleep sometimes, and unconcious counts as willing, so that sets you up for dominate monster on the leader.

Unconscious means "willing" for targeting purposes, but it does not mean that you fail saves automatically. I see this misconception so often. Casting Dominate Monster on a sleeping dragon will probably just result in it making its save and immediately waking up. And I doubt the leader of hundreds of dragons could have lived to be 1000+ years old without getting some defenses against scry and die tactics.

[Rowan Arquest]

Just bust out the commoner railgun, and pelt them with high speed projectiles from really far away... :P (kidding)

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think were forgetting that the OP just wants to halt the attack, not devestate and anihilate the dragons. Something that will deter them without destablizing their power structure (if they dispand they can't be an ally later like they hope) or kill off a lot of them (no dragons=no powerful ally).

I vote Dominate and Charm Monster to get them to be your friend/mind slave and get them to stop attacking long enough to talk to them and try to proceed with ally negotiations.

[Doc Roc]

Actually, great wyrm reds have pretty low saves by default... we could reconfigure your character into a long-range striker. I think we can get about a mile and a half of range, more if we could go with the arcane archer. That might allow us to reliably deliver DC-Boosted or no-save debuffs... Or we could try the necrotic cyst approach?


Insidious Magic + any of the higher level invisibility spells is going to be a really good option... Even if you just want to reason with The Big Boss, you have to get close enough.

[W3bDragon]

I've seen Illithids in game, they've attacked, and I figure we'll need the dragons against them or some greater ally (we've higher connections that state we need the dragons.)

Here's a novel idea, surrender.

Contact the boss dragon through any means you have. Say that you are willing to discuss terms of surrender before the armies clash. Once in a face to face meeting, use magical means to boost your conversation skills and convince the great wyrm that if the fight happens, both sides will be weakened against the greater threat, being the Illithids. Offer the boss dragon boatloads of treasure as spoils of war and call it a draw. The dwarves should be able to supply the treasure.

Barely any magic needed.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Here's a novel idea, surrender.

Contact the boss dragon through any means you have. Say that you are willing to discuss terms of surrender before the armies clash. Once in a face to face meeting, use magical means to boost your conversation skills and convince the great wyrm that if the fight happens, both sides will be weakened against the greater threat, being the Illithids. Offer the boss dragon boatloads of treasure as spoils of war and call it a draw. The dwarves should be able to supply the treasure.

Barely any magic needed.

Battle has already started. Though that may be a better reason to call for surrender.

[Seffbasilisk]

Scry takes an hour to cast.

My list does include Arcane Spellsurge, Disjunction, and Mindrape.


So far I've been using Greater Celerity and readied actions to throw up Walls of Force and Prismatic Walls in front of Dragons. Wings of Flurry to mess up minions.

Stun Ray to snap individuals out of the sky, and PaO to stone'm.


The Cleric gated in a Brass Dragon but it was shredded before it could Control Weather.


So far I've helped fight off a strafing run on the battlements, and smashed the two-score hill-giants that got inside the walls to open the Eastern Door.

Right now there's a massive group of souped-up trolls attacking the Door before I could get it closed, and I'm running out of spell-slots. I do have a Staff of Fire with 40+ charges, so I should be able to fend that off and get the door closed again.

Hopefully that'll buy me the time to rest and regain slots.


We're going to have the Druid talk to the Great Wyrm, but I'm looking for more tweaks to buy time. If we can make the city secure to we can raid from it and retreat to rest in safety, we'll be golden. A series of battles of attrition will wear us down.


Spellcasting power on our side: Druid, Cleric of Bahamut, and me (Sorcerer)

We also have a Rogue/Shadowdancer and a Fighter/Dervish/Homebrew.

There's a crafter Wizard as well, but his player is rarely if ever there.

The Fighter was...being annoying, so I drowned the cat in cream. He wanted to be able to Fly, so I cast it on him, and kicked him off the wall. He took out one dragon...then got shredded.


I just hit level 20, so I have one more 9th level spell to choose. Right now I'm angling towards Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (to play up my Disintegration joy and give me more options than stun-locking a dragon and peppering it with Orbs of Cold.)


I thought out the Antipathy route, but it's too wide an area, and with the constant hits, we can't afford to lose so many spellslots just on that, if there's a chance it won't work.

[sirpercival]

If you can get Starmantle and End to Strife on people in the middle of melee battalions, that should shut most of them down.

[Seffbasilisk]

Oooh, shiny.

However, we lack Exalted characters.

The Druid draws from the Book of Vile Darkness (He likes Death by Thorns) and has the Eye of Vecna.

I'm Neutral.

The cleric is...theoretically 'Good' even though he assumes I'm evil and treats me as such regardless of everything, while assuming the druid is Good.

[sirpercival]

Neither of those are exalted spells, or even spells with the Good descriptor. They just happen to be in the BoED.

[Randomguy]

Shadow landscape is an area control druid spell that will lock down everything within a 1 mile radius, but it affects everyone except the caster and 1 creature per 4 caster levels, so if you have an army of your own they'll suffer the affects as well.

[hex0]

Also, cast Fimbulwinter.

[molten_dragon]

Do you have Shivering Touch? Because a Maximized Shivering Touch would be an insta-win if you can get into range.

Shivering touch is miles away from being an ista-win on a great wyrm red dragon. He's going to have scintillating scales (along with a crapton of other buffs) running, so hitting him is not going to be easy. And even if you do, he's more than likely got a contingency set to deal with it. That 26 INT score is more than enough to realize that dex damage/drain is a big problem for him, and come up with a way to handle it.

Honestly, roleplaying might be your best bet here. Just taking on the great red wyrm is going to be a hell of a fight for 3 20th level characters (even if they're spellcasters). Add in his 200 little brothers and you guys are going to get stomped flat.

If you think you'll need them later because of an invading illithid army, ask for a parlay with the commander, and explain the situation to him. Be able to provide some proof (even if you need to manufacture it), and point out that neither of your forces alone is sufficient to deal with it, but together you might be able to push them back. Just be prepared for the inevitable back-stabbing that is to come later.

But at least it buys you time.

[Doc Roc]

Get limited wish. It lets you wish for Psychic Reformation. This lets you repick spells and feats for a relatively limited XP fee.

[Seffbasilisk]

Ladies and Gents. Let me make this abundantly clear:

I have no desire to, nor need, to rebuild my character. I am quite pleased with him as is, and if I require retraining, I have already used a Wish spell to do so once before, and can do so again if need be in the future.

That ASIDE.

End to Strife was a solid idea, especially coupled with the parley. I'm thinking of having the druid buy some time, get the cleric to get that spell up, and going to talk to the Wyrm as one option.


Shivering touch is the default dragon-killer, but it's not a spell I have and not my sorcerer's style anyway. Even if? No Maximize or Reach spell.

Fimbulwinter is an idea though.

Keep'm comin' folks

[Hiro Protagonest]

We need your spell list!

Do you have any Orb spells? Because touch attacks are amazing against dragons. Orb of Force is the hardest to resist, since force resistance is rare.

[hex0]

Fimbulwinter is an idea though.



Red Dragons don't like the cold very much. Any wide area weather control type spell will work great. Most have long casting time though.

[Doc Roc]

Okay, if I absolutely, positively have to kill something.

Amulet of Second Chances or Time Regression + Infinite PP tricks. Just loop until they run out of luck and crit fail a saving throw. If you can get an amulet, you can mind-rape the leader.

I guess just get the fighter to reroll as a dual-nines caster? ;)

[Seffbasilisk]

Other players of this game! You know me, and if you say you don't you're lying. Metagamers will be struck, wise guys will be struck harder.

My basic breakdown:


Rhamman Devarian

Rakshasa
(bought off the LA (weird homebrew, very...very expensive XP wise)

So Racial 7, Sorcerer 6, Mindbender 1, Incantatrix 6. [3.0 Incantatrix]

Stats: Str 12, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 34.

All of those are un-buffed. 170 HP, and my saves (counting daily buffs) are Fort 20, Reflex 19, Will 33.

RDF can add a +12 to any of those as an Immediate action.


My spell list currently (counting knowstones and the like)

Cantrips: Prestidigitation, Arcane Mark, Message, Mending, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Create Water, Resistance.

1st level: Nystal's Magic Aura, Protection from Chaos, True Casting, Unseen Servant, Charm Person, Grease, Shield.

2nd level: Glitterdust, Essence of the Dragon (just swapped out Eagle's Splendor for this), Whispering Wind, Ray of Stupidity, Wings of Cover, Gust of Wind, Resistance to Energy.

3rd level: Unluck, Fly, Karmic Backlash, Greater Mage Armor, Anticipate Teleportation.

4th level: Trace Teleport, Assay Spell Resistance, Scrying, Wings of Flurry, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Orb of Cold, Dimensional Anchor.

5th level: Teleport, Greater Dimension Door, Wall of Force, Dominate Person, Mordenkaiden's Private Sanctum

6th level: Disintegrate, Greater Dispel Magic, Anti-magic Field, Superior Resistance.

7th level: Stun Ray, Planeshift, Arcane Spellsurge, Spell Turning

8th level: Polymorph Any Object, Greater Celerity, Mind Blank, Prismatic Wall

9th level: Mind-rape, Hammertime, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction

Things available by items/race/etc: Spell turning, Evasion, X-ray vision, Blinking, Mindshielding, Invisibility, Telepathy 100ft, Mindsight, Detect Thoughts, Spell Resistance 40, AC 42 (46 with shield spell), Change Shape, Disguise Self, Sustenance, Arcane Might.

Metamagic rods: Empower, Empower, Greater Empower, Silent.
Metamagic feats: Eschew Material Components, Quicken Spell, Still Spell, Fell Drain, Invisible Spell (<- Unused, may be swapped out for a different metamagic feat)

Other pertinent feats: Eyes to the Sky (Spelltouched), Invisible Needles (Reserve), Disintegration Finesse, Quick Recovery

Abilities of note: DR 15/ Piercing and Good
Darkvision 60ft
Arcane Sight 120ft
Send Away (+2 to Dispel/banish/etc outsiders and the like)
See Ethereal
Strike Etheral
Hardy Spirit (Like Deathward, but on crack and nonmagically permanent)

Items of note: Tons of extradimensional storage space (A handy haversack and three different types of bags of holding last I checked.)

3 level 17 half-orc fighters (Minions, technically 'unpaid' hirelings. They work for booty and me not killing them.) They all wield greatswords, can penetrate DR/magic, and are power-attack/crit focused. 185hp, AC 20.

Wand of Create Food/Water, Wand of Detect Secret Doors,

Scroll of Heal

Potions: Blur, Remove Blind/Deaf, Remove Disease, Tongues, Water Breathing, Water Walking, Magic Circle against Good, Neutralize Poison, Cure Moderate Wounds (x3).

I have a Thinaun dagger tucked in my belt. If I have to wield it, it's coated in a DC 26 poison that does 2d6/2d6 dex damage.

Robe is enchanted +1 Improved Fire Resistance.

I have some mundane stuff like a rapier, parchment, inkpen, ink, a few fake spellbooks, some spell component pouches, blink-dog teeth, almost six thousand gp worth of gems. I keep two elixer's worth of Glibness bespelled to look non-magical in a flask bespelled to seem nonmagical. My unbuffed bluff is a +38 now. Concentration +24. Nonmagical disguise +20. Homebrew skill and uses for Profession Sorcerer +28. Spellcraft is a +25, because I'm also dealing with a +7 Psicraft, a +6 Tumble, and a +14 Use Magic Device and a +14 Use Psionic Device. Other social skills at a minimum of +18, but rarely used.

If I can get downtime, I can recover my spells. If I've an hour or two I KNOW will be downtime beyond that? I can teleport back to my tower, and then pick up some more gear (I have powerful magic item contacts.)

Oh, yes. My weapon of Choice (rarely if ever used) is my Staff of Fire.

I started out as a Diviner, then an Illusionist, then an Enchanter, then I used Conjuration heavily, my main weapon was Evocation until I started using more Transmutation. I banned Necromancy when I became a specialized Abjurer.

[Doc Roc]

So which incantatrix is this? The good one, or the insanely good one?

[hex0]

Wow. Nice build. You have a high bluff, possibly high enough to bluff dragons.

I was hoping you had Time Stop as a spell to go along with your Hammertime. :smalltongue:

[Seffbasilisk]

Sometimes I sidestep and hitch my robes up.

[Coidzor]

200 dragons? And you can't kill them all because you need them alive for some arbitrary reason so that you can use them?

Summon Diplomancer.

[Little Brother]

Get a bard. Get this bard absurdly high Charisma. More suggestions and mass suggestions than the Sorcerer.

Teleport an astral projection into the camp where you can find their boss, and challenge him to single combat.

Cast the blame on someone else there, surrender, and send him to them as an offering(Bonus: Mind Rape him to make him think he did it. After that, the surrender should work, them you can go crump some Mind Flayer heads.

[faceroll]

I would use the Blizzard spell from Frostburn and lots of control weather. You should be able to get the cold band in the area low enough that marching on the dwarves will basically be invading Russia in the winter. That should take care of the orcs and hill giants.

Pick up Superior Invisibility, scrolls of it or something. As long as you stay >120 feet away from dragons, they have very few ways of locating you. You're also going to need away to get through all that wintery crap. I think there's a 9th level druid spell that lets you do that called Stormrage or something.
Combined with the wind and total concealment you get, only the strongest of wyrms will be able to come after you.

Now all you have to do is sneak up on a Wyrm and hit it with a twinned split ray Avasculate (avasculate halves a targets' HP on a successful ranged touch attack[ray]). That should take it down to 41 HP, no save. Follow up with a quickened power word: petrify. Then shrink that sucker down and put him in your pocket.

[Seffbasilisk]

We did have a very charismatic bard...

Unfortunately the player is inept at social situations for all of his stats.

So the idea is to turn the Dwarven Fortress into Leningrad? Sounds solid, but somewhat too long term. We don't have time to wait for them to run out of supplies. Snowing them in might buy some time and mobility, especially as I can teleport and fly...

Talking to them might be the idea, but I don't have Avasculate, Twin Spell, or Split Ray...

Power word petrify might be fun, but if I can let them have a saving throw, PaO does that as well, with more versatility.



General consensus seems to be that I should talk to them. Any special tricks or tips?

[Deth Muncher]

We did have a very charismatic bard...

Unfortunately the player is inept at social situations for all of his stats.

So the idea is to turn the Dwarven Fortress into Leningrad? Sounds solid, but somewhat too long term. We don't have time to wait for them to run out of supplies. Snowing them in might buy some time and mobility, especially as I can teleport and fly...

Talking to them might be the idea, but I don't have Avasculate, Twin Spell, or Split Ray...

Power word petrify might be fun, but if I can let them have a saving throw, PaO does that as well, with more versatility.



General consensus seems to be that I should talk to them. Any special tricks or tips?

Other than maybe chug a Glibness potion if you can somehow get your hands on one? Not really. Keep in mind they're really, really evil, so maybe try a healthy combination of Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate?

(Yes, I know that Intimidating a dragon sounds silly. But you've got the Charisma for it.)

[Coidzor]

^: Just mildly difficult, as Dragons acquire HD like hotcakes, which help with their making the level check. As the great red has a minimum of 50, and that's if he's completely typical in regards to wisdom. Full ranks and a +10 item just gives a +33 to the intimidate check.
We did have a very charismatic bard...

Unfortunately the player is inept at social situations for all of his stats.

Ahh, one of those DMs. And one of those players. What a perfect storm. :smallsigh:


So the idea is to turn the Dwarven Fortress into Leningrad? Sounds solid, but somewhat too long term. We don't have time to wait for them to run out of supplies. Snowing them in might buy some time and mobility, especially as I can teleport and fly...

Run out of supplies? The Great Wyrm Red alone has CL 19. They're all basically evil, text over table Rainbow Servant Sorcerer Gishes of Death.

If your DM is playing them half as they should be to reflect their stats and capabilities, that's not even remotely possible.


General consensus seems to be that I should talk to them. Any special tricks or tips?

Well, I'd give some in-character advice, but in light of what you said here...


We did have a very charismatic bard...

Unfortunately the player is inept at social situations for all of his stats.

You'll probably just have to break out the Kobayashi Maru tactics to deal with your DM hobble-skirting you into not killing them all in the face out of game.

[faceroll]

So the idea is to turn the Dwarven Fortress into Leningrad? Sounds solid, but somewhat too long term. We don't have time to wait for them to run out of supplies. Snowing them in might buy some time and mobility, especially as I can teleport and fly...

Unless they have army-wide endure elements spells, the lowly troops will succumb to frostbite. Use the Frostburn supplement to get the most out of dropping everything to unearthly cold.

The advantage of controlling the weather is two-fold: attrition, and battle field control. You pretty much assure that no mundanes will be able to go and raze the city while it's you vs. 200 dragons. If you can spring for a scroll of stormrage, the dragons are hosed unless they meet you with similar tactics.

Can't you use limited wish or psychic reformation or a runestaff to get the spells you need? A level 20 rak-whatever should be able to teleport/plane shift to where people sell nice things.

[Seffbasilisk]

Kobayashi Maru? So...hack the game.

Dr. Stan time?


The minions are nothing more than cannon fodder. The dragons don't care about them, and if the dwarves can't stop the orcs, they don't deserve their mountain-city.


If I can get a window, I can try to pick up a few scrolls. Mind-raping a dragon gave me his hoard's location, the command words, and the trap locations.


Getting that window is tricky.