9/9 persistent circle antimagic?

[Anthrowhale]

This is an exercise in optimization. I was curious about whether or not it was possible to have a character simultaneously get:

(1) 9th level divine spells
(2) 9th level arcane spells
(3) circle magic
(4) unlimited persistent metamagic
(5) antimagic casting

The last one is only available from the Initiate of Mystra feat as far as I know. Each of the last 3 options is individually a game breaker, so the combination borders on deific, but in a manner not involving any infinite power loops.

I found one build which satisfies this, and as far as I know it's just about the only build possible, up to minor variations. I'm curious to know if others know other possibilities, not including gestalt.

The build is:

Human
Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 5/Bard 1/Hathran 5/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 8.

Feats: (with 2 flaws)
1. Ethran (for 3)
1. Extend Spell (for 4)
1. (Flaw) Versatile Spellcaster (Early entry Hathran, for 2)
1. (Flaw) Ocular Spell (for 4)
3. Initiate of Mystra (for 4,5)
6. Leadership (for 3)
9. Node Spellcasting (for 4)
12. Persistent Spell (for 4)
15. Metanode Spell (for 4)
18. [free]

To remind people what can be done:
You always live inside (possibly multiple) AM fields and every morning you cast a new set of (possibly ocular) persistent extended spells on yourself. The combination of you with magic, no one else having magic on you, and you having a high caster level is very difficult to break through.

There are some substantial disadvantages: you get no magic items, and can use no supernatural abilities, like turning. Nevertheless, it appears that liberal use of persistent magic makes up for these drawbacks.

Two particularly synergistic spells are Superior Invisibility (from spell compendium) and Permeable Form (from Lords of Madness). The first plausibly breaks truesight (!) and the second means you are immune to all nonmagical attacks which are the only attacks that can be made inside an AM Field.

[Shadowknight12]

I am 89% sure someone has already done this before. I shall await someone more versed on optimisation matters to come to the rescue with a link.

Other than that, great work, we've broken the game again. As a community, we've done it so many times that we're what? Fracturing Higgs-Bosons? :smallwink:

[Anthrowhale]

I am 89% sure someone has already done this before. I shall await someone more versed on optimisation matters to come to the rescue with a link.


If so, that's cool. But, I haven't seen discussion of truesight breakers elsewhere.



Other than that, great work, we've broken the game again. As a community, we've done it so many times that we're what? Fracturing Higgs-Bosons? :smallwink:

If only the real world was this easy to break...

[Morph Bark]

I thought circle magic was a Red Wizard thing?

[Tyndmyr]

Wizard/red wizard/ur priest/MT/Incantatrix should do it. D Invoke Magic will get you spells in an AMF.

Alternately, you could use Archmage's Master of Shaping ability to get shaped AMFs leaving a you-sized hole, but that is probably inferior due to vulnerability to the AMFs of others, requiring archmage levels added to the mix, etc.

[Urpriest]

How are you getting the 3rd level arcane spells? Anyspell?

[sreservoir]

How are you getting the 3rd level arcane spells? Anyspell?

anyspell only goes up to 2nd. greater is needed.

[Anthrowhale]

I thought circle magic was a Red Wizard thing?

That's the most common, but Hathran and Halruuan Elder also provide it.


Wizard/red wizard/ur priest/MT/Incantatrix should do it. D Invoke Magic will get you spells in an AMF.


Invoke Magic (the spell) would leave you with only 4/4 spells, hardly inspiring.



Alternately, you could use Archmage's Master of Shaping ability to get shaped AMFs leaving a you-sized hole, but that is probably inferior due to vulnerability to the AMFs of others, requiring archmage levels added to the mix, etc.


This leaves you vulnerable to magic weapons (which are magical at the point of impact), pixie spellcasters, and incorporeal undead. On the plus side, it means magic items work for you, although that's less effective than you might imagine---persistence with a wide variety of spells supercedes most common magic item bonuses. Also, if you want to retain the ability to cast spells through the AM field, you still need Initiate of Mystra.


How are you getting the 3rd level arcane spells? Anyspell?

Is this for me? You need 4th level spells for Hathran, which are provided by an L5 cleric with the versatile spell feat. Hathran allows and advances divine magic, which is particularly frightening given caster level dependent effects in holy word.

[Urpriest]

Is this for me? You need 4th level spells for Hathran, which are provided by an L5 cleric with the versatile spell feat. Hathran allows and advances divine magic, which is particularly frightening given caster level dependent effects in holy word.

For Sublime Chord.

[Doc Roc]

How are you getting the 3rd level arcane spells? Anyspell?

You can "ladder" upward with sanctum spell or versatile and Dragonsblood Pool.

[Urpriest]

You can "ladder" upward with sanctum spell or versatile and Dragonsblood Pool.

He doesn't have Sanctum Spell. I suppose he could be using Dragonsblood Pool.

[Anthrowhale]

He doesn't have Sanctum Spell. I suppose he could be using Dragonsblood Pool.

I wasn't familiar with Dragonsblood Pool.

I was imagining just using Anyspell+Circle to heighten a prepared arcane spell to 3rd level. An alternative is to use versatile spellcaster to Anyspell, Greater to get a 3rd level arcane spell directly.

One minor variation on the build if you have sufficient Int is:

Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 3/Bard 1/MT 2/Hathran 5/SC 1/MT 8

Here, you use Versatile Spellcaster->Anyspell->Arcane L2 to early entry Mystic Theurge. That makes 2-3 uses of Versatile Spellcaster in one build.

[Doc Roc]

I wasn't familiar with Dragonsblood Pool.

I was imagining just using Anyspell+Circle to heighten a prepared arcane spell to 3rd level. An alternative is to use versatile spellcaster to Anyspell, Greater to get a 3rd level arcane spell directly.

One minor variation on the build if you have sufficient Int is:

Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 3/Bard 1/MT 2/Hathran 5/SC 1/MT 8

Here, you use Versatile Spellcaster->Anyspell->Arcane L2 to early entry Mystic Theurge. That makes 2-3 uses of Versatile Spellcaster in one build.

Dragonsblood pool will get you arcane casting on a divine base.

Favored Soul Of Mystra + Mind Switch && Sandwich Trick into a Lillend for bardic music and some casting + Versatile + Dragonsblood pool -> SC 2 + MT X + Hathran X advancing Favored Soul.
Done and clean.

FS 6/Lillend-ification && Dragonsblood Pool/Hathran? Red Wizard? X/SC 2/MT 7

Depending on reading, cleric might work too. Spelldancer will get you unlimited persist if you can feed it enough feats. You can use a beholder instead of a lillend, and then abuse beholder mage. This'll let you push the build down considerably, I guess. But at that point, what matters is that you're a beholder mage. I don't think anyone's built a beholder mage on top of a traditional Initiate of Mystra chassis though, which is an interesting exercise potentially.

[Anthrowhale]

Favored Soul Of Mystra + Mind Switch && Sandwich Trick into a Lillend for bardic music and some casting + Versatile + Dragonsblood pool -> SC 2 + MT X + Hathran X advancing Favored Soul.


You'll have to unpack things a bit for me to understand. First, you need cleric 3 to qualify for Initiate of Mystra. How does this build incorporate that? Second, I don't understand the Sandwich Trick, or how it applies. You use psionics to turn yourself into a sandwich with a soul, then what? True Mind Switch into a Lillend and preserve the sandwich? Third, if you become a Lillend permanently, doesn't it's +6 level adjustment apply resulting in an L20 violation?



FS 6/Lillend-ification && Dragonsblood Pool/Hathran? Red Wizard? X/SC 2/MT 7

Depending on reading, cleric might work too.


I think cleric is necessary, but if you are using FS for spontaneous casting for Dragonsblood, then I don't understand why cleric doesn't work instead as clerics can spontaneously cast spells.



Spelldancer will get you unlimited persist if you can feed it enough feats.


No---Spelldance is Su, hence incompatible with AM Field.

[sreservoir]

No---Spelldance is Su, hence incompatible with AM Field.

so dismiss your AMF for the, what? half a minute? it takes you to persist something.

metanode spell is better if you can find a good-enough node, though!

[Doc Roc]

The sandwich trick is a generic term for using mind switch to permanently assume a form.
Dragon magic offers a small tidbit that means Favored Souls can qualify for initiate feats because they share the Cleric Spell list.
Sres is correct about briefly dismissing your AMF.
You can use incantatrix instead, I guess, up to a point.
Mind Switch keeps your hit points, so you never have their HD. Perhaps you should gain an LA for stealing the body of a Lillend, but no rules say that you do.

[TravelLog]

Exactly how is Circle Magic used to achieve Uber Lolz power? I've seen a lot of people mention it, but I've never played in a game with circle magic and don't have any books that include it.

[Doc Roc]

Exactly how is Circle Magic used to achieve Uber Lolz power? I've seen a lot of people mention it, but I've never played in a game with circle magic and don't have any books that include it.

Check your DMG, under Red Wizard.

[candycorn]

Alternately, you could use Archmage's Master of Shaping ability to get shaped AMFs leaving a you-sized hole, but that is probably inferior due to vulnerability to the AMFs of others, requiring archmage levels added to the mix, etc.

AMFs do not block line of effect. If someone cast a spell from outside the AMF, to you, inside the donut hole in the AMF, it would affect you normally.

Basically, AMF only suppresses spell effects within them. It does not do anything else, including stop spells from targeting when they are between the caster and the target.

They only protect you from magic when you are physically inside them.

[Wings of Peace]

Cleric -> Prestige Paladin of the Arcane Order seems worth mentioning to save space. Loses two CL but it still gets 9ths. After that just need to sneak in some Circle Magic.

[Morph Bark]

AMFs do not block line of effect. If someone cast a spell from outside the AMF, to you, inside the donut hole in the AMF, it would affect you normally.

Basically, AMF only suppresses spell effects within them. It does not do anything else, including stop spells from targeting when they are between the caster and the target.

They only protect you from magic when you are physically inside them.

This. Hence why you need IotSV for that extra layer of protection.

[Wings of Peace]

Checked the numbers. If we wanted to go full-op I would say

Race: Illumian (For Naenhoon Heighten Spell hax)

Flaws: 1 (Minimum, 2 works too)

Cloistered Cleric 1/Hathran 6/Prestige Paladin of the Arcane Order 4/Hathran 4/X 5 (can't be Dweomerkeeper)

Other stuff:

-Extra Spell: Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) to give us fuel for Divine Metamagic.

[Doc Roc]

Cleric -> Prestige Paladin of the Arcane Order seems worth mentioning to save space. Loses two CL but it still gets 9ths. After that just need to sneak in some Circle Magic.

I don't think I've ever seen SotAO applied to Prestige Paladin! Very good show!

[dextercorvia]

I don't think I've ever seen SotAO applied to Prestige Paladin! Very good show!

I believe it was in one of the original Rainbow Warsnake builds.

[Tyndmyr]

AMFs do not block line of effect. If someone cast a spell from outside the AMF, to you, inside the donut hole in the AMF, it would affect you normally.

Basically, AMF only suppresses spell effects within them. It does not do anything else, including stop spells from targeting when they are between the caster and the target.

They only protect you from magic when you are physically inside them.

Well yes...but you still get protection from say...magical items not working of a person standing within range. This will reduce basically any melee person to irrelevant, for instance. Sure, you could beat them anyway...you're a wizard, but the less resources you have to spend doing so, the better. So, the hole in the middle trick retains some value...but I agree it offers additional weaknesses.

And yes, I support using Sanctum Spell, etc with Invoke Magic to creatively pull out effectively higher level spells.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Don't forget to Persist Shapechange. Since you're going to be low on magic items, you'll want a variety of forms you can turn into at a moment's notice to cover the potential gaps in your defenses.

[sreservoir]

Don't forget to Persist Shapechange. Since you're going to be low on magic items, you'll want a variety of forms you can turn into at a moment's notice to cover the potential gaps in your defenses.

particularly, dire tortoise.

sure, you could just persist foresight, but this saves a spell known and a spell per day.

[Doc Roc]

particularly, dire tortoise.

sure, you could just persist foresight, but this saves a spell known and a spell per day.

Also, who wouldn't want to play Gamera?

[sreservoir]

Also, who wouldn't want to play Gamera?

... okay, that too. but then you'd also have to persist righteous might and swift fly.

[sreservoir]

Also, who wouldn't want to play Gamera?

... okay, that too. but then you'd also have to persist righteous might and swift fly.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

... okay, that too. but then you'd also have to persist righteous might and swift fly.

Hence 9's on both sides, and DMM: Persist + Cracksticks.

[dextercorvia]

Is it the glitch?

[Anthrowhale]

metanode spell is better if you can find a good-enough node, though!

I was imagining making a church of Mystra inside an earth node, possibly one that you create via node genesis. This gives you one free metamagic + the free levels from metanode.


so dismiss your AMF for the, what? half a minute? it takes you to persist something.


The mechanics of AMF casting are unclear to me here. Is it the case that all spells you cast as an Initiate of Mystra resist AM whether or not you are aware of the AM at the time of casting? Or is it the case that your spells can resist specific AM that you are aware of at the time of casting? It seems like a case could be made either way. Do you have an argument for the first?

The 4 feats required for Spelldancer are also a concern---I don't see how to squeeze them in. If it could be made to work, you gain the appealing trait of not requiring a homebase.


The sandwich trick is a generic term for using mind switch to permanently assume a form.


The Astral Seed approach is explicitly evil---that's a concern given alignment constraints for Hathran. So you would need True Mind Switch with a voluntary Lillend, which might be possible given their chaotic nature, but it's a stretch. If I understand correctly, the deed itself seems to be possible via a jacked up Use Psionic Device + Power Stone. In terms of wealth-by-level, this should be feasible between L10 and L11. If we stay within wealth-by-level, can it be done earlier?



Dragon magic offers a small tidbit that means Favored Souls can qualify for initiate feats because they share the Cleric Spell list.


Cool, hadn't seen that before. Is there a reason to consider FS over Cleric? It seems like cleric is generally better for persist foo, as you have more unique spells/day.



You can use incantatrix instead, I guess, up to a point.


I don't see how. Metamagic Effect is Su.



Mind Switch keeps your hit points, so you never have their HD. Perhaps you should gain an LA for stealing the body of a Lillend, but no rules say that you do.


Mind Switch grants Ex attacks and qualities and explicitly not Su or Spell-like. No mention of Spells is made. Bardic music has an unclear classification---it's a class ability with effects that are Su or Sp. What happens under Mind Switch to Spells and Bardic music appears unspecified, and it seems like there is a strong case for going with the soul rather than the body given that you explicitly keep your class abilities and the effect is described as symmetric for the participants.



You can use a beholder instead of a lillend, and then abuse beholder mage.

Beholders are evil, which makes astral seed + mind switch feasible at an earlier level than for a Lillend. But, they aren't female, so you can't go Hathran unless you have some way to fix that. Do you?


AMFs do not block line of effect. If someone cast a spell from outside the AMF, to you, inside the donut hole in the AMF, it would affect you normally.


I hadn't appreciated this. It seems to nerf the archmage route to the point of clear disqualification.


Hence why you need IotSV for that extra layer of protection.

IotSV itself seems week compared to AM casting, as extra spells can bring it down, and it's only minutes/day.



Cloistered Cleric 1/Hathran 6/Prestige Paladin of the Arcane Order 4/Hathran 4/X 5 (can't be Dweomerkeeper)


This doesn't work as far as I understand. You need Leadership for Hathran, which has a prerequisite of character level 6.



-Extra Spell: Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) to give us fuel for Divine Metamagic.

I hadn't seen Bone Talisman before. It's use in DMM counts as supernatural though leading to the same discussion as with spelldancer. Another issue here is that DMM requires many turns, which is incompatible with using persist many times in one day.



And yes, I support using Sanctum Spell, etc with Invoke Magic to creatively pull out effectively higher level spells.

Sanctum Spell+Invoke magic let's you cast 5th level spells as 4th level, right? That's interesting, but how do you extend the effect to 9th level spells?


Don't forget to Persist Shapechange. Since you're going to be low on magic items, you'll want a variety of forms you can turn into at a moment's notice to cover the potential gaps in your defenses.

Not forgotten, but if you're persisting 50-100 buff spells/day the gaps in your defenses are not so large...

[dextercorvia]

Racial Spellcasting is a natural ability.

[Anthrowhale]

Racial Spellcasting is a natural ability.

Huh, it's apparently not Ex,Su, or Sp, so by elimination, you're right.

But, a rules lawyer has another objection: Hathran requires Ethran, and Ethran requires a human from Rashemen. If you mind switch into a Lillend, you are no longer human.

More generally, the circle magic requires human from Thay, human from Halruaa, or human from Rashemen, which seems to lock out all permanent changes of form.

[Anthrowhale]

Exactly how is Circle Magic used to achieve Uber Lolz power? I've seen a lot of people mention it, but I've never played in a game with circle magic and don't have any books that include it.

Good "I win" caster level 40 spells:
Holy word: Autokill 30HD- nongood in 40' radius, no save.
Erupt: 400 fire damage in 4000' radius, Fort 1/2
Mental Pinnacle: Ego Whip: 10d4 Charisma damage, Will 1/2

[dextercorvia]

Huh, it's apparently not Ex,Su, or Sp, so by elimination, you're right.

But, a rules lawyer has another objection: Hathran requires Ethran, and Ethran requires a human from Rashemen. If you mind switch into a Lillend, you are no longer human.

More generally, the circle magic requires human from Thay, human from Halruaa, or human from Rashemen, which seems to lock out all permanent changes of form.

You don't lose class abilities if you fail to qualify for them unless they appear in CW or CA.

Where do you find the restriction on Circle Magic?

[Wavelab]

Where do you find the restriction on Circle Magic?

The feats that allow you to take the prestige classes are regional.

[dextercorvia]

The feats that allow you to take the prestige classes are regional.

So, you take the feat, get into the class, and then change your type. If you have no other way to access circle magic, then you take the circle magic feat from Ghostwalk.

[Anthrowhale]

You don't lose class abilities if you fail to qualify for them unless they appear in CW or CA.


Ok, I hadn't realized the rule was nongeneral.



Where do you find the restriction on Circle Magic?


Red Wizard requires human from Thay.
Hathran requires Ethran requires human from Rashemen.
Halruaan Elder requires Halruaan Adept requires human from Halruaa.

Prerequisite failure implies feat failure according PH, which should apply generally. This seems to mean:
Ethran humans can participate in any circle's magic. (universal donor)
Halruaan humans can participate in Halruaan circle magic.
Specialist wizard (non)humans can participate in red wizard circle magic.

And only humans from appropriate regions can enter {Red Wizard, Hathran, Halruaan Elder}, but they don't need to stay human. Nonhuman Hathran and Halruaan Elder can lead circle magic as a class feature, but not participate otherwise as they lose access to a feat, which could be repurposed for something else.

Understanding the above, I can reinterpret Doc Roc's build as:

Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 6/Hathran 5/Lillendify/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 8.

Feats: (with 2 flaws)
1. Ethran (for 3)
1. Extend Spell (for 4)
1. (Flaw) Versatile Spellcaster (Early entry Hathran, for 2)
1. (Flaw) Ocular Spell (for 4)
3. Initiate of Mystra (for 4,5)
6. Leadership (for 3)
9. Node Spellcasting (for 4)
12. Persistent Spell (for 4)
15. Metanode Spell (for 4)
18. [free]

The advantage is +3 bard caster levels, +1 cleric caster levels, +3 feats free, which is certainly handy.

But with this understanding, we can go further. We can use Mind Switch on a Beholder at level 11, then Psychic Reformation to get 2*Assume Supernatural Ability, poke our AM eye, and then begin advancing as a Beholder Mage.

Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 6/Hathran 5/Beholderify/Beholder Mage 1/Mystic Theurge 8.

Feats: (with 2 flaws)
1. Assume Supernatural Ability
1. Extend Spell (for 4)
1. (Flaw) Improved Assume Supernatural Ability
1. (Flaw) Ocular Spell (for 4)
3. Initiate of Mystra (for 4,5)
6. Leadership (for 3)
9. Node Spellcasting (for 4)
12. Persistent Spell (for 4)
15. Metanode Spell (for 4)
18. [free]

And after advancing to 20th level, we no longer need spell eyes or an AM eye, allowing us to use Psychic Reformation again to get:

Feats: (with 2 flaws)
1. Extend Spell (for 4)
1. Ocular Spell (for 4)
1. (Flaw) Node Spellcasting (for 4)
1. (Flaw) Persistent Spell (for 4)
3. Initiate of Mystra (for 4,5)
6. Metanode Spell (for 4)
9. [free]
12. [free]
15. [free]
18. [free]

Is that all technically kosher? Not requiring feat tax after the first level in a prestige class unblocks many things.