Lethality check

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders, once again I have come to you to ascertain the likelyhood of my party's demise...


this time around my question is slightly different, instead of gauging the survivability of the current party versus the projected encounter, I am going to lay out the projected encounter, and I want to know where you would peg the encounter as "level appropriate"



preferably, I'd like your opinions on the following areas

at what point is this encounter
- TPK
- doable, but will incur at least 2 or 3 PC deaths
- doable, challengning, but shouldn't incur more than a single casualty
- doable, on the easy side, shouldn't incure any deaths short of bad/good luck
- easy, the party should be able to handle this encounter while also fighting something else.


anyways, now that I've layed out what I need.... let me describe the encounter.


the encounter consists of......

an Ogre chieftan, riding a T-Rex.

assume the Ogre has taken a few levels of barbarian and has been built in such a manner as to present an equal threat while mounted or while on foot. and his mount has the equivilant of full-plate barding.

a Second T-Rex, this one awakened and sufficiently enchanted to become a bard that plays a ukulel
yukelel....
yukele

.... those tiny hawian guitars... :smallyuk:

-ahem-

in addition to these to T-Rex (what's the plural of T-Rex anyways?)

there is a Half-Dragon T-rex (red)

AND

an Ork war-chief (Orc Paragon 3, Barbarian... we'll say 10)


I'm pretty sure that's everything......

anyways. what do you think?

do y'all need more information?

[Kenneth]

you left out 1 very very important bit of information


what level is the party that is going to encounter this?

level 1 ? then its a TPK for sure

for me when I think ' oh this might be too deadly' usually that means it is

there is alwasy the trusted mode of if in doubt don't

[TriForce]

do people need to assume a optimized party, a mixed one, a casual one? something thats a TPK for a casual party can be little more then a bump in the road for a optimized party

[big teej]

you left out 1 very very important bit of information


what level is the party that is going to encounter this?

level 1 ? then its a TPK for sure

for me when I think ' oh this might be too deadly' usually that means it is

there is alwasy the trusted mode of if in doubt don't

actually it's not so much that I left it out so much as "that's the question I'm asking"

and what level does such an encounter meet those criteria I layed out above

the bit about TPK vs 2-3 casualties vs 2-3 casulaites with bad luck vs easy, etc. etc.



EDIT:


do people need to assume a optimized party, a mixed one, a casual one? something thats a TPK for a casual party can be little more then a bump in the road for a optimized party

that's a fair point, I did forget that.

alrighty, sword and board fighter is out performing our druid.
as a matter of fact. EVERYBODY is out-performing our druid.

the term I use for this group is "hyper-low-op"

sooooo there you have it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

that's a fair point, I did forget that.

alrighty, sword and board fighter is out performing our druid.
as a matter of fact. EVERYBODY is out-performing our druid.

the term I use for this group is "hyper-low-op"

sooooo there you have it.

To be fair, you are telling the ones that are getting a level of system mastery that if they start optimizing, it'll turn into an arms race.

[Talentless]

EDIT:



that's a fair point, I did forget that.

alrighty, sword and board fighter is out performing our druid.
as a matter of fact. EVERYBODY is out-performing our druid.

the term I use for this group is "hyper-low-op"

sooooo there you have it.

Well um... i'd say 13th level with this... and that may be pushing it considering it sounds like the encounter enemies are semi to decently optimized.

Honestly... I didn't even think a S&B Fighter ever COULD out perform a druid :smalleek:
Is the druid even trying?

[Diefje]

There's 4 that will put on the hurt, but they're all melee types. The real wildcard is the (I think you spell it like this) ukulele playing Bardosaurus.

It might get rough when they're caught completely unaware and in a horrible spot, but I don't think that under normal circumstances it would pose a serious challenge. Maybe even easy if they have plenty of prep time.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Honestly... I didn't even think a S&B Fighter ever COULD out perform a druid :smalleek:
Is the druid even trying?

Well, in my first D&D campaign (which died when school started), my 18 str half-orc fighter 3/ranger 1 beat the party's druid and wolf when under enchantment. He carried a shield, but rarely used it since it took a move action and instead just two-handed the bastard sword for 1d10+6 damage (although I managed to roll 16 damage for both attacks against them), but no Power Ttack or anything.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, the encounter level has to be more than 13, given it has a CR 13 foe plus a large (rimshot) supporting cast of enhanced dinosaurs, and an ogre. In a hyper-low-op party, when EL = Average Party Level, you have a distinct possibility of character death. Using that as a guideline, and assuming you hand out WBL in a kind way and they use it at least somewhat properly...

Easy: Level 18. They should have tricks just from their items to counter this, unless the Bard has something up his sleeve. Also, Druid has ninths, although by your description it doesn't seem to matter.
Doable/Easy: Level 17.
Doable/Challenging: Level 16.
Doable/Partial Party Kill: Level 15.
TPK: Level 13 or lower.

There's a lot of variance based on how the encounter starts (I've assumed equal surprise), how much teamwork is involved, and whether the party can convince the druid to use his spontaneous SNAs properly if they're in a dire situation (I've assumed they can't).

I should also say that the progression for a group of players like me would be something like 11/9/8/7/6, again due to (in my case moderate) optimization level. You know your group better than we do.

[big teej]

To be fair, you are telling the ones that are getting a level of system mastery that if they start optimizing, it'll turn into an arms race.

:smallconfused:
explain please?


Well um... i'd say 13th level with this... and that may be pushing it considering it sounds like the encounter enemies are semi to decently optimized.

Honestly... I didn't even think a S&B Fighter ever COULD out perform a druid :smalleek:
Is the druid even trying?

you underestimate the casual playstyle my friend.



There's 4 that will put on the hurt, but they're all melee types. The real wildcard is the (I think you spell it like this) ukulele playing Bardosaurus.

It might get rough when they're caught completely unaware and in a horrible spot, but I don't think that under normal circumstances it would pose a serious challenge. Maybe even easy if they have plenty of prep time.

heh... bardosaurus. heh heh.

-ahem-

I wouldn't call it "completely" unaware..... the party is currently fighting a war, and they have just recieved a scouting report that mentions (obliquely) the half-dragon T-rex, the possibility of ogre-t-rex calvary, an ogre chieftan, and the ork warlord.

whether they take note of this information or not remains to be seen.


Well, in my first D&D campaign (which died when school started), my 18 str half-orc fighter 3/ranger 1 beat the party's druid and wolf when under enchantment. He carried a shield, but rarely used it since it took a move action and instead just two-handed the bastard sword for 1d10+6 damage (although I managed to roll 16 damage for both attacks against them), but no Power Ttack or anything.

related,

I played a Human Barbarian with 18, 17, 17 for my physical stats.... to this day has DOMINATED every party he's been in. (levels 1 - 5)

hardly op'd at all. still manages too.



to aid discussion I'll now post part composition.
1 9th level Human paladin
(rest of party is a mix of 7th and 8th levels, I'm not sure who's what at the moment)
dwarf fighter
gnome cleric
human barbarian - deceased
Elf Duskblade
Human Ranger - deceased
Elf Druid
Half-Elf Duskblade

the barbarian is going to be replaced by an Ogre Barbarian.
as of this post I have not been told what the Ranger will be replaced by.

[Kenneth]

Ok here would be my take on it consideing the party composition


Easy: Level 18. They should have tricks just from their items to counter this, unless the Bard has something up his sleeve. Also, Druid has ninths, although by your description it doesn't seem to matter.
Doable/Easy: Level 17.
Doable/Challenging: Level 16. (if your party is not all melee)
Doable/Partial Party Kill: Level 16.
TPK: Level 15 or lower.

as of right now if they are all level 8 ish. wouldn;t just a half red dragon T rex kill them?

[Medic!]

My contribution:

http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.5568562.8767/fc,550x550,white.jpg

[Telok]

Depending on the players, just the duskblades and cleric could almost finish the whole fight.

Are the duskblades smart enough to realize the Touch of Idiocy can shut down the dinosaurs in a couple of hits? Does the paladin use Bless Weapon? Does the cleric prepare Silence? Do these guys have access (and use) flight or climbing? It isn't really about character optimization, it's about knowing how to use the basic abilities against the weaknesses of the enemies while covering your own weaknesses. A druid, without feats or wildshape, can throw Spike Growth - Obscuring Mist - Call Lightning and just hide out while zapping. That isn't even including Hold Animal, Hide From Animals, or Soften Earth and Stone.

If they played smart they could handle dumb animals, two melee warriors, and a... have you considered the VSM aspect of spell casting for the bard/dino or are you just using the bardic music? If they are dumb then they will try to trade full attacks with the brutes and only use magic to heal themselves.

Of course there is the fact that they will probably ignore the scouting report. Never underestimate the ability of players to miss what you thought was an obvious clue. Best to assume a round or two of the players acting in random confusion at the start of the combat.

Smart players, say a hard fight at 8 - 10, going to easy at 14+
Dumb players, 8 is a TPK, 10 - 14 is hard, and it would only be easy at 16+

[big teej]

Depending on the players, just the duskblades and cleric could almost finish the whole fight.

Are the duskblades smart enough to realize the Touch of Idiocy can shut down the dinosaurs in a couple of hits? Does the paladin use Bless Weapon? Does the cleric prepare Silence? Do these guys have access (and use) flight or climbing? It isn't really about character optimization, it's about knowing how to use the basic abilities against the weaknesses of the enemies while covering your own weaknesses. A druid, without feats or wildshape, can throw Spike Growth - Obscuring Mist - Call Lightning and just hide out while zapping. That isn't even including Hold Animal, Hide From Animals, or Soften Earth and Stone.

If they played smart they could handle dumb animals, two melee warriors, and a... have you considered the VSM aspect of spell casting for the bard/dino or are you just using the bardic music? If they are dumb then they will try to trade full attacks with the brutes and only use magic to heal themselves.

Of course there is the fact that they will probably ignore the scouting report. Never underestimate the ability of players to miss what you thought was an obvious clue. Best to assume a round or two of the players acting in random confusion at the start of the combat.

Smart players, say a hard fight at 8 - 10, going to easy at 14+
Dumb players, 8 is a TPK, 10 - 14 is hard, and it would only be easy at 16+

lets see....
in short.

the paladin player will likely pick up on the importance of the scout report.

the dwarf fighter has access to a slightly edited version of The Hammer of Thunderbolts. and has been putting it to good use.

the cleric knows the extent of his powers, and as a favor to me, typically tones it down quite a bit, but is more than capable of bringing Cleric zilla to bear when I give the green light (as I will over such a fight)

the ogre barbarian is relatively new to the game, and really only shows up from week to week to kill things.

the Elf Duskblade.... has no clue what his class is capable of, and is still working on a basic tactical understanding of combat.

the half-elf duskblade is brand new to the game, she's played with us once so far.

and then there's the wildcard.... it'll most likely be a scout, and I would rate the player's grasp of the system somewhere between the Elf duskblade and the paladin.... closer to the elf.

and last there's the Elf Druid.... who I remain utterly convinced has NO CLUE of the extent of her powers..... OR she has internalized my "don't break the game" rule to the extreme.

I hold to the former idea.

[Telok]

Go for the 10 - 12 level range for that fight then. When the paladin, dwarf, and cleric can almost do that fight without the others would be a good time to have it happen.

See, I read it as your ogre, duskblades, and druid will try for a traditional full attack melee while the others actually shut down the enemy. If you hand the paladin a spell storing weapon with Touch of Idiocy in it, and the cleric a scroll of Plane Shift: Quasi-Elemental Plane of Acid (fake the roll to fail it if you need to) then you can write off two of the Tyrannosaurs. That may also clue in the others as to how D&D fights work once you get past Fireball and Haste.

[Hiro Protagonest]

:smallconfused:
explain please?

You tell everyone who comes up with a trick that the opponents will use that trick too. In another thread some time back, I believe it's the one you started about introducing ToB, that some of your players have discovered a couple tricks, but you told the wizard or cleric (I forget which) that if he chain gates, the balors will chain gate. Therefore, arms race.

[CTrees]

On the druids... my group contained two druids for awhile, and they were consistently the lowest performing members. Didn't ever want to use wildshape, seemed to think their pets were mostly for roleplaying, not for fighting... one of them, I helped somewhat ('hey, you should look at augment summoning and natural spell, etc.), but the other took feats like awareness. Yeah. Ultra-low-op is an entirely different game.

[big teej]

You tell everyone who comes up with a trick that the opponents will use that trick too. In another thread some time back, I believe it's the one you started about introducing ToB, that some of your players have discovered a couple tricks, but you told the wizard or cleric (I forget which) that if he chain gates, the balors will chain gate. Therefore, arms race.

oh that. :smalltongue:

allow me to clarify, whenever a player of mine reaches a much greater level of system mastery than other players (such as the gnome cleric) I ask them to keep their power in line with the rest of the party.

whenever a player discovers a rules-abuse (we'll use chain gating as the example here)

I inform them that they are free to exploit the loop-hole/abuse/whatever they have discovered, and congratulate them on finding it.

however, if they use such an exploit, so will the bad guys.


case in point.... my off campus group, a player discovered the effectiveness of the spiked chain tripper. he completely outstripped the rest of the party (to the point that he solo'd a boss meant to be tough on the whole party)

I asked him to tone it back down to where the rest of the party was. when questioned why, I told him.

reason 1: you're overshadowing the ENTIRE rest of the party. which makes my life difficult.

reason 2: do you REALLLY want the bad guys to start using that? :smalltongue:


now, if the entire party was playing on the same level of optimization, the first reason disapears, but the groups I play with arn't there yet..



On the druids... my group contained two druids for awhile, and they were consistently the lowest performing members. Didn't ever want to use wildshape, seemed to think their pets were mostly for roleplaying, not for fighting... one of them, I helped somewhat ('hey, you should look at augment summoning and natural spell, etc.), but the other took feats like awareness. Yeah. Ultra-low-op is an entirely different game.

preach it brother! :smalltongue:


well, hopefully this post isn't horribly worded, I did just crawl out of bed....

[Ifni]

Touch of Idiocy won't shut down T-Rexes, it explicitly can't reduce ability scores below 1. The problem I'd anticipate is that T-Rexes have improved grab, swallow whole and a +30 grapple check: until you get to the point where everyone in the party has decent grapple defenses (freedom of movement as a spell or item, D-Door or similar to get away with a good enough Concentration check to do it reliably, etc), there's a pretty high risk that half the party will be rendered unable to contribute on the first round. If everyone has anklets of translocation or similar cheap MIC anti-grapple items, this is much less of a danger.

At any party I've been in at L10 or higher, the strategy here would involve exploiting superior mobility (or maybe battlefield control, but if the bad guys can't fly, Mass Fly is the simplest solution), and the fight would probably be won fairly easily, if not necessarily quickly. If they're going to try to melee them, then yeah, the effective EL is probably closer to what you'd get by the book calculation, for which I'm getting EL 14-15 (assuming the Bard-Rex only has a fairly small number of bard levels).

And I've been in a L15ish party, in the hardest pre-written scenario I've ever played in my life, consisting of a wizard/archmage, two druids, a sorcerer, and two fighter-types - and the only people who contributed at anything like an appropriate level were the sorcerer and one of the fighters. Player skill matters a lot, and not just in building the character properly.