Help me optimize a dragon.

[Aegis013]

Title says it; our group recently acquired Orbs of Dragonkind of various colors, although in the setting we're in they do not function exactly as in the book, rather than dominating the will of said color, they allow a bond to be created with a dragon of that color. So now we all have the equivalent of a dragon animal companion. Unfortunately I didn't get to build this from ground up so I'm stuck with this, but I get to choose how it levels from here by either advancing its dragon HD or having it take up PC classes.

If it's any consideration my character is a Killer Gnome (Shadowcraft Mage) at level 9, and optimization is very welcomed in this game. Spoiled below is the dragon's stats.

Very Young Black Dragon 7 HD
Female - Chaotic Evil (which is annoying since I'm true neutral)
Size: Small, Speed: 60, fly: 100 (poor), Swim: 60
Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan
Initiative: +7

HP: 101
AC: 20 (10+3dex+1small+6natural)

Str: 21+5
Dex: 17+3
Con 21+5
Int: 14+2
Wis: 17+3
Cha: 12+1

Fort: 10 (5 base + 5 con)
Ref: 8 (5 base + 3 dex)
Will: 8 (5 base + 3 wis)

BAB: 7
Breath Weapon: 40 ft line of acid, 4d4 damage Reflex DC 18 for half

Feats:
Weapon Focus: Claw
Improved Critical: Claw
Improved Initiative

Skills: (shows ranks and other bonuses only)
Diplomacy: 6 ranks, +2 sense motive synergy
Intimidate: 10 ranks
Knowledges (History and Local): each 10 ranks
Listen: 10 ranks
Move Silently: 10 ranks
Search: 7 ranks
Sense Motive: 10 ranks
Spot: 7 ranks

I want the most bang for my buck out of this dragon (who I keep having to waste a polymorph and beat up to keep in line... CE... argh) and considering at the moment this dragon is at best a liability, I don't mind if I have to wait several levels for it to come to full power.

On a side note: Could I jam a helm of opposite alignment onto a dragon, assuming I could have it refitted or crafted to fit?

Thanks in advance. If there's any other info you need to know, please ask

[Doc Roc]

Scroll of Mindrape is cheaper.

[Talentless]

On a side note: Could I jam a helm of opposite alignment onto a dragon, assuming I could have it refitted or crafted to fit?

Thanks in advance. If there's any other info you need to know, please ask

Polymorph them into a humanoid race, and then you don't even need to fit the helm on a dragons head.

Although that shouldn't matter so much, a CE animal companion should be able to only offer suggestions at most. You have the Orb, and from what you said proved that you are stronger than it, so it won't want to piss you off.

Also, just because something is CE doesn't mean it has to slaughter every random innocent thing it sees.

[hex0]

Can you change the current feats or choose the future feats? I'd suggest Entangling Exhalation, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Multiattack, and Ability Focus: Breath Weapon.

Can you re-assign its stats? I know it isn't going to have spellcasting for a long time, but why is its WIS so high and its CHA so low? :smallconfused: If so, bump its CON. When you/it levels up you can give it a level of Barbarian to focus on bumping CON for its breath weapon.

I wouldn't worry about the alignment. Since you are bonded with it, it should move to Chaotic Neutral over time. At least that is how those type of things worked in my games.

[Calanon]

1. Find the player who got the Silver dragon orb
2. Take his orb while laughing
3. ???
4. Profit!

Darn shame your Alignment is Neutral (The most apathetic of all alignments!) or the mindrape trick would work :smallannoyed: and its a Black Dragon (No offense but Tiamat really didn't plan out her creation of the Evil dragons to well...) so I already view that as a minus =_=;; However if there is every anything they need to do underwater than thats cool that the dragon can still fight :smallsmile: ah well...

[AtwasAwamps]

Part of me wants to say Warblade but that's because I always want to say Warblade.

[Aegis013]

Can you change the current feats or choose the future feats? I'd suggest Entangling Exhalation, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Multiattack, and Ability Focus: Breath Weapon.

Can you re-assign its stats? I know it isn't going to have spellcasting for a long time, but why is its WIS so high and its CHA so low? :smallconfused: If so, bump its CON. When you/it levels up you can give it a level of Barbarian to focus on bumping CON for its breath weapon.

I wouldn't worry about the alignment. Since you are bonded with it, it should move to Chaotic Neutral over time. At least that is how those type of things worked in my games.

I can select future feats and choose how it progresses, but what it has is stuck (as annoying as that is). Thank you for your suggestions!
And sadly, I cannot reassign stats, what it is when I got it in not negotiable according to the DM.


Also, just because something is CE doesn't mean it has to slaughter every random innocent thing it sees.

The way the DM set it up, every player roleplays the dragon of another player. They're like animal companions in that they tag along and we basically control them for combat, but their personality is dependent on another player.
The "steal it if it's not bolted down and sleep with everything that moves" rogue player is controlling mine... my dragon is totally psychotic (not by my choice) so I'm trying to control it via fear.

[Aegis013]

1. Find the player who got the Silver dragon orb
2. Take his orb while laughing
3. ???
4. Profit!

Darn shame your Alignment is Neutral (The most apathetic of all alignments!) or the mindrape trick would work :smallannoyed: and its a Black Dragon (No offense but Tiamat really didn't plan out her creation of the Evil dragons to well...) so I already view that as a minus =_=;; However if there is every anything they need to do underwater than thats cool that the dragon can still fight :smallsmile: ah well...

Unfortunately, the orbs are bonded to the owners in this setting. The silver orb won't work in my hands. Though I would've much preferred silver, but having a dragon at all is at least something.

[Calanon]

Unfortunately, the orbs are bonded to the owners in this setting. The silver orb won't work in my hands. Though I would've much preferred silver, but having a dragon at all is at least something.

Indeed...
Its really disappointing that 3.5 has more support for Evil Aligned characters than good Aligned or Neutral (LOL Neutral sourcebook) :smallannoyed:

[Fouredged Sword]

Max out diplomacy, or get a bard x/ dragon shaman 1/ warlock 1 with +yes to diplomacy.

Read the rules in BoED about converting someone.

You should be able to shift the dragon's alignment to TN in the very least. It is forever and non-magical, so no worries about dispelling or any such effects.

Also, read into the Atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) spell. If you can get the dragon to be willing to change it's alignment it is changeable. You can't use magic compulsion though. Not sure how that will play with the orbs.

[Aegis013]

The alignment issue isn't intended to be the main issue.
I'm wondering what kinds of things I could do with a dragon like this as it progresses. Considering I can put it in PC classes, it should have some options, even if it will be 7 levels behind due to HD.

Any ideas?
Any way to synergize its abilities to amplify mine or anything? Or should I just make it a brawling machine?

[hex0]

Or should I just make it a brawling machine?

Yes, as per my suggestion have it take a level of Barbarian next. Rage increases the breath weapon DC. Have it take entangling exhalation next feat and it can rage, tangle foes up, and tear them apart.

[Doc Roc]

So, can you get a Thought Bottle? If so, we can repurpose its dragon HD.

[Aegis013]

So, can you get a Thought Bottle? If so, we can repurpose its dragon HD.

It's very unlikely, but I'll look into obtaining one.

[Doc Roc]

It's very unlikely, but I'll look into obtaining one.

So basically, you have the dragon set its XP, then you level drain the bejesus out of it, then you have it restore its xp. As a terrifying lord of sorcery and arcana. Instead of a jumped up lizard with delusions of horniness.

[Aegis013]

So basically, you have the dragon set its XP, then you level drain the bejesus out of it, then you have it restore its xp. As a terrifying lord of sorcery and arcana. Instead of a jumped up lizard with delusions of horniness.

How exactly does this work? Just have the dragon store ALL of its XP into the thought bottle so it reduces its effective level and HD to 1? and then rebuild it from there?

If it pulls the XP back out of the thought bottle does it level up however I determine?

[Doc Roc]

How exactly does this work? Just have the dragon store ALL of its XP into the thought bottle so it reduces its effective level and HD to 1? and then rebuild it from there?

If it pulls the XP back out of the thought bottle does it level up however I determine?

The level drain is separate. The store just sort of memorizes what its XP value was.

[Fouredged Sword]

A dip in barbarian also grants pounce. This is a terrifying ability for something with a 120ft+ fly speed.

Also, on that note, consider totemist from magic of incarnum. Yes, new system, but you can layer even more natural weapons onto your pouncing melee monster. A 2 level dip adds several possible extra attacks.

Three levels, lets see what else we can shoehorn in.

I think there is a psion ACF for the transmuter analoge that gets the changeling shapeshifting ability. Follow that with warshaper and you have even more extra abilities, and psionic power points and a psionic focus. This and you masquerade as a dragon of another color.

So, Dragon x/Barbarian 1/totemist 2/psion 1/warshaper x

If you can't fit totemst in no big deal, drop it. Barbarian is a must though, so go warshaper as much as you can.

The goal is high power for low level investment. That means PRC's that are able to function with low class level investment.

Another option is to enter abjurant champion. You are likely to qualify straight or with a dip in fighter. Take a level of sorcerer to grant a spellcasting progression that will stack with the dragon spellcasting.

Dragon x / Sorcerer 1 / abjurant champion x.

Take lost of practical spellcaster and rock the swift action dispell.

[Aegis013]

The level drain is separate. The store just sort of memorizes what its XP value was.

So I'll need something to inflict negative levels?

[Aegis013]

A dip in barbarian also grants pounce. This is a terrifying ability for something with a 120ft+ fly speed.

Also, on that note, consider totemist from magic of incarnum. Yes, new system, but you can layer even more natural weapons onto your pouncing melee monster. A 2 level dip adds several possible extra attacks.

Three levels, lets see what else we can shoehorn in.

I think there is a psion ACF for the transmuter analoge that gets the changeling shapeshifting ability. Follow that with warshaper and you have even more extra abilities, and psionic power points and a psionic focus. This and you masquerade as a dragon of another color.

So, Dragon x/Barbarian 1/totemist 2/psion 1/warshaper x

If you can't fit totemst in no big deal, drop it. Barbarian is a must though, so go warshaper as much as you can.

The goal is high power for low level investment. That means PRC's that are able to function with low class level investment.

Another option is to enter abjurant champion. You are likely to qualify straight or with a dip in fighter. Take a level of sorcerer to grant a spellcasting progression that will stack with the dragon spellcasting.

Dragon x / Sorcerer 1 / abjurant champion x.

Take lost of practical spellcaster and rock the swift action dispell.

Awesome advice! Thank you greatly. Unfortunately (I can't believe I forgot to mention this) Psionics are banned. Sad day.

Edit: Well... it appears the dragon will not be able to qualify for warshaper or abjurant champion for the foreseeable future (can't cast until Young Adult). Considering how low its Cha score is, it's probably better to shy away from caster type builds unless I can find a way of reallocating its stats via in game cheese.

[TroubleBrewing]

Unfortunately (I can't believe I forgot to mention this) Psionics are banned. Sad day.

Psionics are banned, presumably because they're "overpowered", right?

And he gave all of you a dragon, free of charge?

[Aegis013]

Psionics are banned, presumably because they're "overpowered", right?

And he gave all of you a dragon, free of charge?

No, he never said they were overpowered. And to the best of my knowledge, doesn't believe they're overpowered. They simply do not exist in his setting.

[Zagaroth]

When/if given the option for class levels, I recommend 2 levels of swordsage. Get wisdom to AC, and get some cool abilities. Note that she effectively has 3 initiator levels already, so she can grab up to 2nd level stances/maneuvers at Sword Sage 1, and 3rd level at sword sage 2

Make it the suggested unarmed variant. Now your dragon's full attack looks like this:

Unarmed Strike +8/+3 (Full str bonus)
Claws (2) +3 (1/2 str bonus damage)
Bite +3 (1/2 str bonus damage? or may still keep 1.5 str, as dragons have that specifically listed for bite despite it not being an only-natural-weapon.)


+ badass maneuvers with Setting Sun and Tiger Blood.

Hrrrm, Jade phoenix requires a good alignment doesn't it? because her racial sorcerer levels would count eventually.

[Aegis013]

When/if given the option for class levels, I recommend 2 levels of swordsage. Get wisdom to AC, and get some cool abilities. Note that she effectively has 3 initiator levels already, so she can grab up to 2nd level stances/maneuvers at Sword Sage 1, and 3rd level at sword sage 2

Make it the suggested unarmed variant. Now your dragon's full attack looks like this:

Unarmed Strike +8/+3 (Full str bonus)
Claws (2) +3 (1/2 str bonus damage)
Bite +3 (1/2 str bonus damage? or may still keep 1.5 str, as dragons have that specifically listed for bite despite it not being an only-natural-weapon.)


+ badass maneuvers with Setting Sun and Tiger Blood.

Hrrrm, Jade phoenix requires a good alignment doesn't it? because her racial sorcerer levels would count eventually.

This sounds good. I'll look into it, although I think I'm going to take its next HD as a Barbarian with the Lion Spirit Totem variant for pounce as per hex0's suggestion. And if I'm interpreting the Draconomicon correctly, I have to spend my 9th HD in the dragon "class" so my 10th and 11th levels will probably go to unarmed sword sage.

[Fouredged Sword]

Abjurant champion requires only 1st level spells. I would suggest applying the loredrake template to the dragon and then takeing a level of wizard.

Abjurant champion requires the following.

+5 BaB.
Combat Casting
1st level arcane spells, one must be abjuration.
Proficiency with one martial weapon.

I would suggest that you acquire the martial weapon prof with a feat (I know, but better than a level lost), or take the martial sorcerer ACF for sorcerer instead of wizard (but this is cheese, as you are not getting sorcerer casting so some would say you do not have the class feature to trade away). One level of a arcane spell casting class grants the needed spells, and you already have the bab.

Feats, retrain them. Combat casting, Martial weapon prof (something interesting), and practical spell caster. Later pick up improved initiative.

If you cant retrain your feats, consider levels of duskblade, as it grants both martial weapon prof and combat casting.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I second the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Swordsage 2 idea but I'd like to add my own adendum and pick up Warblade x afterwards. Though I loath to say it, Warblade has better maneuver to access and while your Wis is higher than your Int, its only by a small amount and you gain Wis to AC as it is. Warblade also has nighty Int synergy that is just gravy to have. Swordsage are (primarily) Dex-focused and as a Dragon, his Dex will steadily decline. But that matters little when his Str increases faster.

[Basket Burner]

Make the dragon a Wyrm of War. It's basically free anyways.

[Aegis013]

Abjurant champion requires only 1st level spells. I would suggest applying the loredrake template to the dragon and then takeing a level of wizard.

Abjurant champion requires the following.

+5 BaB.
Combat Casting
1st level arcane spells, one must be abjuration.
Proficiency with one martial weapon.

I would suggest that you acquire the martial weapon prof with a feat (I know, but better than a level lost), or take the martial sorcerer ACF for sorcerer instead of wizard (but this is cheese, as you are not getting sorcerer casting so some would say you do not have the class feature to trade away). One level of a arcane spell casting class grants the needed spells, and you already have the bab.

Feats, retrain them. Combat casting, Martial weapon prof (something interesting), and practical spell caster. Later pick up improved initiative.

If you cant retrain your feats, consider levels of duskblade, as it grants both martial weapon prof and combat casting.

Thanks for your advice and I'll check about retraining feats. I suppose I could simply make the dragon a wizard, then PrC into abjurant champion like you're purposing (using permanency with Heroics if I could swing it), but that really hinges on if the DM allows me to retrain it.

I do like that the abjurant champion has full BAB though, I think the level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian would still be worth it. Pounce is great.


I second the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Swordsage 2 idea but I'd like to add my own adendum and pick up Warblade x afterwards. Though I loath to say it, Warblade has better maneuver to access and while your Wis is higher than your Int, its only by a small amount and you gain Wis to AC as it is. Warblade also has nighty Int synergy that is just gravy to have. Swordsage are (primarily) Dex-focused and as a Dragon, his Dex will steadily decline. But that matters little when his Str increases faster.

Thank you for your input as well. I'm actually mildly hesitant about the Swordsage, due to the loss of BAB, which is quite painful if I'm making it a melee build, but the benefits do seem to outweigh the drawbacks.

I had a new thought... if I could get the dragon another feat somehow, would PrC'ing into Frenzied Berserker be worthwhile? Seems like if I'm getting a level of Barbarian, might as well rage and frenzy simultaneously if I can swing it. I'd probably have to dip two levels of fighter for bonus feats (power attack and cleave) if I can't retrain previous feats.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Thank you for your input as well. I'm actually mildly hesitant about the Swordsage, due to the loss of BAB, which is quite painful if I'm making it a melee build, but the benefits do seem to outweigh the drawbacks.

I had a new thought... if I could get the dragon another feat somehow, would PrC'ing into Frenzied Berserker be worthwhile? Seems like if I'm getting a level of Barbarian, might as well rage and frenzy simultaneously if I can swing it. I'd probably have to dip two levels of fighter for bonus feats (power attack and cleave) if I can't retrain previous feats.

If you only dip Swordsage, you loose 1 BAB which means its attacks, on average, will hit 5% less time and you'll deal 2 damage less with power attack. So if you go into Warblade or Crusader, you won't loose anymore BAB. Even if you go Barbarian 1/ Swordsage X, you'll end up with 17 BAB at 20 HD, which means your unarmed strike will get 4 hits on a full attack.

On Frenzied Beserker, it looks apetizing but think about how the player who RP's your dragon will do when Frenzied. The dragon would have to attack anything that moves until it succeeds a will save and when you got that much melee potential, its a flying, acid breathing TPK. At current, he would have less than 50% to end a Frenzy so its far from reliable. I, personally, wouldn't do it given the situation, UNLESS you can use the save replacer maneuvers in Frenzy and you pump Concentration. By RAW, IIRC, you can't but since you can't make Concentration checks while Frenzied, but you can try to convince your DM otherwise.

[Aegis013]

If you only dip Swordsage, you loose 1 BAB which means its attacks, on average, will hit 5% less time and you'll deal 2 damage less with power attack. So if you go into Warblade or Crusader, you won't loose anymore BAB. Even if you go Barbarian 1/ Swordsage X, you'll end up with 17 BAB at 20 HD, which means your unarmed strike will get 4 hits on a full attack.

On Frenzied Beserker, it looks apetizing but think about how the player who RP's your dragon will do when Frenzied. The dragon would have to attack anything that moves until it succeeds a will save and when you got that much melee potential, its a flying, acid breathing TPK. At current, he would have less than 50% to end a Frenzy so its far from reliable. I, personally, wouldn't do it given the situation, UNLESS you can use the save replacer maneuvers in Frenzy and you pump Concentration. By RAW, IIRC, you can't but since you can't make Concentration checks while Frenzied, but you can try to convince your DM otherwise.

You make a good point on the frenzy, although, at present, I'm not concerned for myself in that situation, my allies might not be so prepared. (I beat this thing in melee... alone... twice, via liberal use of resist energy: acid, greater mirror image, haste and polymorph)

[MesiDoomstalker]

You make a good point on the frenzy, although, at present, I'm not concerned for myself in that situation, my allies might not be so prepared. (I beat this thing in melee... alone... twice, via liberal use of resist energy: acid, greater mirror image, haste and polymorph)

Well, then, the question is if you don't mind the dragon being a more disruptive member of the group or not. If you don't mind inconviencing the party more, then go for it.

[Aegis013]

Ok looks like retraining feats is allowed.

So I'm either going with
Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Swordsage 2/Warblade x
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (claw), Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, and then the next feats will probably be (I'll try to get a permanency Heroics to grab as many of these as I can) Power attack, Imp Bull Rush, then Shock trooper. Unless someone has some other suggestons. Or would taking up to shock trooper be better than Imp Natural Weapon and Multiattack chain?

Or I'll go with
Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/?
Feats: Combat Casting, Practiced Spellcaster, Martial Weapon proficiency: some weapon (permanency Heroics possibly).

I'm strongly leaning towards the melee side. Though I'm not entirely certain...

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ok looks like retraining feats is allowed.

So I'm either going with
Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Swordsage 2/Warblade x
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (claw), Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, and then the next feats will probably be (I'll try to get a permanency Heroics to grab as many of these as I can) Power attack, Imp Bull Rush, then Shock trooper. Unless someone has some other suggestons. Or would taking up to shock trooper be better than Imp Natural Weapon and Multiattack chain?

Or I'll go with
Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/?
Feats: Combat Casting, Practiced Spellcaster, Martial Weapon proficiency: some weapon (permanency Heroics possibly).

I'm strongly leaning towards the melee side. Though I'm not entirely certain...

If you can take (Improved) Multiattack without Improved Natural Attack, I'd drop INA. Its barely better than Weapon Specialization and thats only if your Large to start with. Going straight for Power Attack with Pounce and (Improved) Multiattack, then Shock Trooper as fast as possible would be perfect.

[Aegis013]

If you can take (Improved) Multiattack without Improved Natural Attack, I'd drop INA. Its barely better than Weapon Specialization and thats only if your Large to start with. Going straight for Power Attack with Pounce and (Improved) Multiattack, then Shock Trooper as fast as possible would be perfect.

Thank you! I think that's what I'll do.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Thank you! I think that's what I'll do.

No problem dude.

[Medic!]

I may be out of line for suggesting this, but what are your feelings on War Hulk?

[Aegis013]

I may be out of line for suggesting this, but what are your feelings on War Hulk?

Not out of line, I'm not opposed, if I thought it would be a stronger dragon for including War Hulk, I'd include it, but using the Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Swordsage 2/Warblade x setup, I wouldn't want too many levels of War Hulk so I can make sure to get above 15 BAB by ECL 20 (the dragon is ECL 10 right now and I have 3 years before I have to spend a level on its dragon "class")

[Medic!]

The biggest reasons I thought about war hulk for the dragon is because of the obvious (natural attacks) and also depriving your degenerative rogue of your dragon's sense motive ranks might make him easier to keep in hand. I agree that mixing the war hulk in while going the ititerave attack route would just be working against yourself though. I guess it depends on what you want the dragon to do in combat overall, and on how your DM sets up your encounters. Multiple creatures, I'd probably prefer the war hulk route (for the AoE melee attacks and tail-flung boulders of pew pew pew between breath weapons); single big nasties, I'd favor the pounce route.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The biggest reasons I thought about war hulk for the dragon is because of the obvious (natural attacks) and also depriving your degenerative rogue of your dragon's sense motive ranks might make him easier to keep in hand. I agree that mixing the war hulk in while going the ititerave attack route would just be working against yourself though. I guess it depends on what you want the dragon to do in combat overall, and on how your DM sets up your encounters. Multiple creatures, I'd probably prefer the war hulk route (for the AoE melee attacks and tail-flung boulders of pew pew pew between breath weapons); single big nasties, I'd favor the pounce route.

Do remember that as a small dragon, it only has 2 claws and a bite attack. It won't get a wing attack till he "ages" up to medium sized.

[hex0]

Improved Multiattack should be your next choice for sure.

Do not forget entangling exhalation!

[Zagaroth]

One other possibility that I was reminded of because of another thread.

Souleater. Evil non-humanoid? check!

Negative levels with every hit.

Souleater dragons with improved/superior unarmed strike...

[Fouredged Sword]

There is some controversy with soul eater. It is a great class, and I think you meet the prereqs already, but some say that the drain energy ability is a standard action touch attack, others say that it effects all attacks with natural weapons.

I tend to agree with the natural attack reading, but you should get a firm decision from your DM about that before you spring it on him.

[Aegis013]

That would make a great 1 level dip. Not sure if I'd want to go for the 7th level buff to it.

Also, Hex0, I haven't forgotten entangling exhalation, but with the breath weapon being only a line without getting metabreath feats, I'm going to try to get shock trooper first... possibly using Permanency Heroics to get there faster. After that, entangling exhalation.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, look into the arms and equipment guide. It is 3.0, but there is a collar that makes any creature small and explicitly does not change their stats. This makes it easy to get your dragon into small dungeons and you can have it carry you around by picking you up from behind. (dragon jetpack!). Also towns are much less threatened by a wyrmling black dragon than the possibility of an adult deciding to go on a rampage for some slight by a villager.