Wish

[moonbomb]

Ok there are a few things id like to know.


1. How can a PC legitimately wish for a more wishes. please tell me wish word for word.

2. Is there a way for gain a level using the wish spell worded in a particular way. One of the players who is a long time GM stated that there is a way he just didnt remember. what do you guys think?

[MesiDoomstalker]

By RAW, niether of those are gaurenteed possible. I said gaurenteed because they fall under a 'risky wish' category and thus subject to DM fiating it.

I guess you could ask for 1,000 exp and be less than 1,000 exp and gain a level. This is based on the premise is that 1 exp=25 gp, as per the item creation rules, but its not on the safe list so its still up to DM screwing. Not to mention exp is a meta concept so that is an issue.

[DoctorGlock]

1: You note that wish can create magic items up to 25000 gp in value. Candle of invocation is 8400. Wish for a candle. Gate in an efreeti, get 3 more wishes, one of which is another candle. There is not specific wording because a DM should not pervert a wish explicitly withing wish power, if he is out to do that, you are gonna get shafted no matter how you word it. If you are trying to start an infinite wish loop, you are going to get shafted anyway. The best way to avoid the agony is to see what the DM will allow and simply wish for that.

[The Boz]

Don't ever, EVER, try to outsmart the DM.
Success or failure is irrelevant. Don't do it.

[Vowtz]

1. It can't be done

2. There is not


See the way this spell is written:

"...For example, wishing for a staff of the magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff’s current owner. Wishing to be immortal could get you imprisioned in a hidden extradimensional space (as by an imprisonment spell), where you could “live” indefinitely...."

This basically means that the DM can twist your words the way he likes, or just punish you for your insollence on trying, and, if you read the text above, you see that this punishment does not even has to make any sense.

If you try on "Efreeti loop", your DM can say that this efreeti already used his wishes.

Even if you succeed you will most likely make the efreeti community angry and be tortured for eternity.


Simplifying: Don't use Wish

[Flickerdart]

1. It can't be done

2. There is not


See the way this spell is written:

"...For example, wishing for a staff of the magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff’s current owner. Wishing to be immortal could get you imprisioned in a hidden extradimensional space (as by an imprisonment spell), where you could “live” indefinitely...."

This basically means that the DM can twist your words the way he likes, or just punish you for your insollence on trying, and, if you read the text above, you see that this punishment does not even has to make any sense.

If you try on "Efreeti loop", your DM can say that this efreeti already used his wishes.

Even if you succeed you will most likely make the efreeti community angry and be tortured for eternity.


Simplifying: Don't use Wish
A Staff of the Magi is an artifact, immortality is beyond the reach of sub-Epic magic. A Candle of Invocation is within the explicit limits of wish and by RAW cannot be twisted.

[The Boz]

Can the DM pull off a "rocks fall, everyone dies" by RAW?

[Flickerdart]

Can the DM pull off a "rocks fall, everyone dies" by RAW?
Rule 0 is implicit in a rules discussion, and does not need to be explicitly evoked. It goes without saying that a DM can change the game's rules as he sees fit, but these houserules have no bearing on the general game.

[Jack_Simth]

A Staff of the Magi is an artifact, immortality is beyond the reach of sub-Epic magic. A Candle of Invocation is within the explicit limits of wish and by RAW cannot be twisted.
Ah... getting the Candle can't be twisted, sure. What happens after that can. Seriously - read the fluff on the Efreeti that are the keystone of this particular infinite loop Wish method. It didn't make the SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti), but dig out your copy of the Monster Manual:
Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead
They're Lawful-Evil critters (work well together in groups, are likely to make mutual defense pacts, and similar things), and while they can't use their Wishes for themselves directly... they can't fail an Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm) check to make, oh, a Fire Memphit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mephit.htm#fireMephit) do stuff... like ask for Wishes of a particular nature.

Have fun with your three Will saves to avoid being dropped into the heart of a sun every day for the next month.

Edit: And, of course, even without that... it's a once per day ability of the Efreeti. The Gate effect of a Candle of Invocation doesn't last 24 hours without making a deal with the critter (which it can reject if it wants, no problems). Just have the Efreeti have already used it, and poof: Loop broken.

[moonbomb]

Can the DM pull off a "rocks fall, everyone dies" by RAW?

i like that.


anyhow ok i like everything that was said so far. However there is another issue. said former gm. tells me that Wish can be use as an alternate for the ressurection spell and use the reincarnation spell in its placement. I will to concede this one but of course it would be a random roll.

my bud Jeff (the former gm) definitely is saying that if you wish a certain way you can gain a level. but it has to be worded in game. You can't state I want to gain a level in fighter...etc

In a way I can see it but i can't possibly word it a correct way for a gm not to mess with it.


Can you use wish to change alignment of a balor without changing the balor himeself...the reason i am asking and this kind of falls with my other question/post about changing alignments is cuz one of my PC wants to play a LG Balor yea i know funky but still plausible only cuz he showed me that redeeemed villian in one of the supplement books. I think it was the BoED.

[MesiDoomstalker]

i like that.


anyhow ok i like everything that was said so far. However there is another issue. said former gm. tells me that Wish can be use as an alternate for the ressurection spell and use the reincarnation spell in its placement. I will to concede this one but of course it would be a random roll.

my bud Jeff (the former gm) definitely is saying that if you wish a certain way you can gain a level. but it has to be worded in game. You can't state I want to gain a level in fighter...etc

In a way I can see it but i can't possibly word it a correct way for a gm not to mess with it.


Can you use wish to change alignment of a balor without changing the balor himeself...the reason i am asking and this kind of falls with my other question/post about changing alignments is cuz one of my PC wants to play a LG Balor yea i know funky but still plausible only cuz he showed me that redeeemed villian in one of the supplement books. I think it was the BoED.

Well, Balor's have a listed LA of - so, techincally, they are not PC material. But if your GM is okay with him playing a Balor, he can be a LG Balor. "Always XX" does not mean always, ironcially. It just means something like ~99%. You'll still have the [Chaotic, Evil] subtypes which basically means hes all alignments but True Neutral for the effects that specify alignment.

[Flickerdart]

Well, Balor's have a listed LA of - so, techincally, they are not PC material. But if your GM is okay with him playing a Balor, he can be a LG Balor. "Always XX" does not mean always, ironcially. It just means something like ~99%. You'll still have the [Chaotic, Evil] subtypes which basically means hes all alignments but True Neutral for the effects that specify alignment.
Nope. He's Lawful, Chaotic, Good and Evil for effects that specify alignment. So he would take both Blasphemy and Smite Evil.

[hex0]

1: You note that wish can create magic items up to 25000 gp in value. Candle of invocation is 8400. Wish for a candle. Gate in an efreeti, get 3 more wishes, one of which is another candle. There is not specific wording because a DM should not pervert a wish explicitly withing wish power, if he is out to do that, you are gonna get shafted no matter how you word it. If you are trying to start an infinite wish loop, you are going to get shafted anyway. The best way to avoid the agony is to see what the DM will allow and simply wish for that.

If I was the DM and someone tried that loop I'd have the Efreeti be pissed about this from another adventurer trying it before. :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

my bud Jeff (the former gm) definitely is saying that if you wish a certain way you can gain a level. but it has to be worded in game. You can't state I want to gain a level in fighter...etc

In a way I can see it but i can't possibly word it a correct way for a gm not to mess with it.

You do realize it's not hard for a caster of any stripe to come up with the concept of levels, right? Something like...

From the journal of Ranth Norzor, 13th head of the Wizards Guild of Southshire, east district:
"Of those young Wizards who could not hold on to a Detect Magic spell for at least three minutes, none were found that could also master See Invisibility. Of those young Wizards who could manage See Invisibility, all could maintain Detect Magic for at least three minutes when pressed. Of those who could manage a Tongues spell, all could maintain Detect Magic for at least five minutes when pressed. I have come to the conclusion that the lowly Detect Magic spell is a remarkably useful tool for measuring the ability of a Wizard; a simple exercise with a water clock gave me a surprisingly reliable indicator of what level of skill the person had with the arcane arts, and which other spells they were likely to be able to manage."

Other types of classes would be trickier - but essentially any caster that has enough in their primary casting attribute to get their highest-level spell can figure it out quite easily... and will do so of necessity, to an extent, due to the costs involved in making scrolls.

Now, you're just trying to gain a level, here. Unless your DM plans to just give you bonus feats you can't qualify for, the general way to go about it is to Wish for an ability of some kind that's at the level you want for your class. A Wizard-8 Wishing to be able to prepare and cast spells of the 5th circle, for instance. Oh yes, there's ways to determine level in-game, too; the spell Trap the Soul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm) says "(While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)". Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm) includes the phrase "In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more Hit Dice between one creature and another". Complete Adventurer expands Sense Motive to tell you how "tough" an opponent is relative to yourself (and has a feat - Combat Intuition - to make it easier). Combat Awareness (PHB II) gives you the HP total of anyone adjacent to you. Analyze Dweomer can give you the caster level of an effect on a person. Arcane Sight can give you the highest-level spell a person has prepared. The Druid-1 spell Power Sight (Masters of the Wild) directly gives you the total number of hit dice (including class levels) that a single target has.

It shouldn't be too hard to take advantage of one of those.

Oh yes, and the ultimate subordinate clause "... without anything which if I knew about it as I am now I would consider 'bad' happening."




Can you use wish to change alignment of a balor without changing the balor himeself...the reason i am asking and this kind of falls with my other question/post about changing alignments is cuz one of my PC wants to play a LG Balor yea i know funky but still plausible only cuz he showed me that redeeemed villian in one of the supplement books. I think it was the BoED.
The simple way is the Helm of Opposite Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#helmofOppositeAlignment), although given the BoED reference, it was probably the effects of the Sanctify the Wicked spell (which can't be duplicated via Wish through the safe list... unless maybe you get it in scroll form).

[hex0]

Doesn't Martial Lore let you determine what the scouter says about his power level, too?

[Diefje]

Unless it is written somewhere else, but SRD states:

Noble Djinn can grant wishes (and they have 10HD like an Efreet). If you Gate in an Efreet, your DM can just tell you that Efreeti don't grant wishes. Sucker.

If you do try to Gate in a Noble Djinn (1% of Djinni), your DM can argue that being a noble doesn't actually make you any different kind. Djinni are Djinni. If you Gated in a Human, could you pick if he was a Commoner 1 or Wizard 30? They're still just Humans.

If you call a specific Noble Djinn, your DM could say it's a "unique being" that you're calling and under no compulsion to come through. This one is a little iffy, I can't find the definition of unique beings in the rules, but if you're allowed to do chaingate shenanigans, your DM is allowed shenanigans too.

Nevermind, the last line still holds.

[Jack_Simth]

Unless it is written somewhere else, but SRD states:

Noble Djinn can grant wishes (and they have 10HD like an Efreet). If you Gate in an Efreet, your DM can just tell you that Efreeti don't grant wishes. Sucker.

By default in D&D, all Efreeti have that ability. Yes, the DM can house-rule out anything he'd like.

[NNescio]

Nope. He's Lawful, Chaotic, Good and Evil for effects that specify alignment. So he would take both Blasphemy and Smite Evil.

He's immune to Blasphemy though (and the other Word-type spells, sans Word of Balance), since those spells check for the absence of certain alignments.


Any nonevil creature...

Since an LG Balor also registers as Evil, he's unaffected by Blasphemy.

[Diefje]

By default in D&D, all Efreeti have that ability. Yes, the DM can house-rule out anything he'd like.
I'm so blind... Well nevermind then. The best a DM could do is just have you summon the same Efreet twice since the SLA is just 1/day. And you making wishes every day and gating efreeti every day is bound to make someone notice and step in.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm so blind... Well nevermind then. The best a DM could do is just have you summon the same Efreet twice since the SLA is just 1/day. And you making wishes every day and gating efreeti every day is bound to make someone notice and step in.No... that's not the best the DM could do.

The Efreeti may have already used it's one/day "Grant Three Wishes" ability that day. What, do you think you're the only one who thought of this?

The Efreeti (or his Efreeti allies) may take offense at the forced enslavement of an Efreeti - even if only for less than a minute - and take horrible, horrible revenge on you.

Someone else could have already done the infinite Wish chain, and be greedy of their power, actively seeking out and eliminating other people who might become his rivals with the shortcut to power he took.

There's a decent number of options, actually....

[Big Fau]

Ah... getting the Candle can't be twisted, sure. What happens after that can. Seriously - read the fluff on the Efreeti that are the keystone of this particular infinite loop Wish method. It didn't make the SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti), but dig out your copy of the Monster Manual:
They're Lawful-Evil critters (work well together in groups, are likely to make mutual defense pacts, and similar things), and while they can't use their Wishes for themselves directly... they can't fail an Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm) check to make, oh, a Fire Memphit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mephit.htm#fireMephit) do stuff... like ask for Wishes of a particular nature.

Have fun with your three Will saves to avoid being dropped into the heart of a sun every day for the next month.

Edit: And, of course, even without that... it's a once per day ability of the Efreeti. The Gate effect of a Candle of Invocation doesn't last 24 hours without making a deal with the critter (which it can reject if it wants, no problems). Just have the Efreeti have already used it, and poof: Loop broken.

Gate makes them obey without question, and as for the "Summon the same one", you order the Efreeti you previously summoned to tell you the name of another Efreeti after having him wish for the second candle.

You then use the new candle to summon that Efreeti, and just get more specific.


Trust me, the optimizers who thought up Pun-Pun made sure there was nothing short of DM Fiat that could break the loop.

[Doug Lampert]

Trust me, the optimizers who thought up Pun-Pun made sure there was nothing short of DM Fiat that could break the loop.

The basic problem is that Gate lets you (short term) enslave something with twice the HD of the caster level of the character using gate. This is insanely stupid. I mean really over the top insane.

And there are monsters that cast as a caster of their HD, so with enough monster books and enough people adding enough such monsters this eventually lets your level 17 caster control a level 34 caster who controls a level 68 caster who.... It's just a matter of finding a splat book with a monster with an appropriate casting ability, the shortage of epic monsters is the only thing slowing this down at all.

Efreets aren't chosen for the gate loop just because they're able to give three wishes, but also because they are otherwise weak so the individual effreet has no real come-back available. Efreets well enough organized to use their wishes indirectly to stop the loop are also well enough organized to rule the universe.

Further the Pun-Pun loop is astonishingly fast, most of it takes one round. Even if efreets ARE that organized it wouldn't be enough.

What stops Pun-Pun is either DM fiat or the fact that there's already a Pun-Pun and he doesn't want rivals (which is also DM fiat, so basically it's DM fiat).

But Gate is an open invitation to infinite loops, because straight by the book it lets a level 17 character control a level 34 character (and that's without buffing caster level).

The Candle loop doesn't really depend on wish, it depends on the brokenness which is gate, of the wish spell didn't exist I'll bet someone could still come up with Pun-Pun based on gate abuse and gating in creatures with gate and appropriate other powers. Note that most of the Pun-Pun build isn't based on wish abuse, that's simply an easy way to get it started.

[Jack_Simth]

Gate makes them obey without question,
They obey without question for one round/level. If they need to rest up for 24 hours before being able to give you those Wishes (because they used them earlier), then you'll need to book a deal with them.

and as for the "Summon the same one", you order the Efreeti you previously summoned to tell you the name of another Efreeti after having him wish for the second candle.

You then use the new candle to summon that Efreeti, and just get more specific.


Trust me, the optimizers who thought up Pun-Pun made sure there was nothing short of DM Fiat that could break the loop.
Note that none of this prevents mutual defense pacts and similar things that'll get you badly killed after the fact (which are kinda written in to the Efreeti monster manual description) ... although depending on your definition, that may or may not fall under "fiat". Of course, any organization is DM fiat by that definition, and would you really consider it fiat if, say, after a player randomly drew a bow and shot the king because he was bored, that the ensuing fight with the King's guard was fiat?

[Diefje]

@Jack_Simth
So pretty much what I said. Wishes used up & horrible vengeance.


@Big Fau
The Efreet could give you the name of an Efreet who's a unique being, and thus not compelled to use the Gate. Or an Efreet who used his wishes.

[moonbomb]

so my next set of questions.

1. so the consensus is you CAN gain a level through wish? if so how? cuz im not understanding that part.

2. Pun-Pun?

3. Can another outsider like the Rakshasa that is LE but native outsider with out the evil subtype...how would changing alignments work for him.

4. How do you properly or ingame spells/rituals change alignments say he wanted to be come a Paladin of X LG goddess how would the transistion work or would it be instantaeous. Woke up one day and said you know what i wanna be good...

thanks for all your help and inputs so far guys.

[Big Fau]

so my next set of questions.

1. so the consensus is you CAN gain a level through wish? if so how? cuz im not understanding that part.

Not really, but it is possible to summon a creature for you to fight. If it's CR is 7 above your ECL, and you solo it, you should get enough XP to gain a level (depending on your current XP).


2. Pun-Pun?

The most powerful character ever created. Completely unbeatable unless the DM chooses to not play by the rules. The thing is, Pun-Pun is completely rules-legal.


3. Can another outsider like the Rakshasa that is LE but native outsider with out the evil subtype...how would changing alignments work for him.

As long as he doesn't have the Evil subtype, changing alignments works the exact same way it would if he were a PC.


4. How do you properly or ingame spells/rituals change alignments say he wanted to be come a Paladin of X LG goddess how would the transistion work or would it be instantaeous. Woke up one day and said you know what i wanna be good...

The rules for those rituals are detailed in Savage Species. The rules for redeeming an evil creature are in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

[Provengreil]

so my next set of questions.

1. so the consensus is you CAN gain a level through wish? if so how? cuz im not understanding that part.

2. Pun-Pun?

3. Can another outsider like the Rakshasa that is LE but native outsider with out the evil subtype...how would changing alignments work for him.

4. How do you properly or ingame spells/rituals change alignments say he wanted to be come a Paladin of X LG goddess how would the transistion work or would it be instantaeous. Woke up one day and said you know what i wanna be good...

thanks for all your help and inputs so far guys.

1. It's not an explicit power of wish, and therefore not "safe" to use. I use quotes because the DM might let you have it anyway, but wishing for a lot of XP could instead get you a lot of scrabble tiles, so the discusiion turned to the abstract consruct of levels and XP. in short, wish to be smarter or something and just stab a few gorillas and you'll be better off.

2. the kobold who became a diety with infinite stats at level 1(i think, might have been 5), within rules as written, while starting as npc kobold wizard C. not an in game figure like elminister, but instead an example of the peak of possible optimization and power, and trying to ascend in a real game is likely to start a bracing game of dodgebook.

3. I'm not really sure what you're asking. he changes alignments, meaning his outlook on everything changes. he was evil, now he fights for good. I can understand your issues if it's the morality of BOED confusing you, but in all honesty, burn that book, it brings pretty much nothing of value to your table when held up to even basic scrutiny. your issue in that case is the book, not the alignment change. otherwise, remember that he doesn't have to become a paladin, just get a conscience.

4. ok, you ought to proofread that question and ask again. I think you were asking whether a spell or ritual that forces a change in alignment takes effect instantaneously or gradually. Answer: look at the description for the spell in question. the deck of many things has a card that does this, and it's instantaneous. other spells may be more gradual, in which case the creature in question might begin to reflect upon its actions with more compassion than normal, and begin anew trying to redeem itself. or something. by and large, it depends on what spell you cast.

EDIT: I was right about pun-pun being level 1. I was also right about level 5. his first incarnation happened at level 5, then someone figured out how to pull it off at level 1, probably with a book written between his first and second incarnations. kobold does not appear to be necessary, but instead just a slap in the face to all the "stronger" races.

[sreservoir]

immortality is beyond the reach of sub-Epic magic.

very, very false. repeated contingent last breaths, kissed by the ages, and liberal use of steal death, as well as true mind switch can trivially let you live forever. psionic sandwich trick is more complicated, but also quite a bit less costly.

[Provengreil]

very, very false. repeated contingent last breaths, kissed by the ages, and liberal use of steal death, as well as true mind switch can trivially let you live forever. psionic sandwich trick is more complicated, but also quite a bit less costly.

not to mention the much more commonly seen lichdom, or in fact most forms of sentient undead.

[Flickerdart]

very, very false. repeated contingent last breaths, kissed by the ages, and liberal use of steal death, as well as true mind switch can trivially let you live forever. psionic sandwich trick is more complicated, but also quite a bit less costly.
Kissed By The Ages requires you to carry a bauble, repeated Contingencies require upkeep, True Mind Switch still has a mortal form. None of those are immortality, merely delaying death by aging, only one of many causes of death. I am not familiar with Steal Death.

[noparlpf]

1: You note that wish can create magic items up to 25000 gp in value. Candle of invocation is 8400. Wish for a candle. Gate in an efreeti, get 3 more wishes, one of which is another candle. There is not specific wording because a DM should not pervert a wish explicitly withing wish power, if he is out to do that, you are gonna get shafted no matter how you word it. If you are trying to start an infinite wish loop, you are going to get shafted anyway. The best way to avoid the agony is to see what the DM will allow and simply wish for that.

It's a nonmagical item up to 25.000 gp. For magical items, it costs the caster more experience.

[sreservoir]

Kissed By The Ages requires you to carry a bauble, repeated Contingencies require upkeep, True Mind Switch still has a mortal form. None of those are immortality, merely delaying death by aging, only one of many causes of death. I am not familiar with Steal Death.

steal life, I meant.

old age is the only condition you can neither return from the death from nor prevent. you can return from most deaths by casting pact of return every day with "I expect to die within six seconds of saying [trigger word], by intentionally failing the save on [spell you're not immune to which will cause instant death if you let it], the companion spell on my contingency triggered by my speaking [trigger word]."

TMS doesn't require you to take mortal form, why would you think that? anything susceptible to mind-affecting telepathies works, pretty much.

[olentu]

Well it depends on what you mean by immortal. You can always snag some divine rank and get "Immortality".

[Flickerdart]

TMS doesn't require you to take mortal form, why would you think that? anything susceptible to mind-affecting telepathies works, pretty much.
Anything with legit immortality is also immune to your pathetic mind-affecting power.

[Psyren]

Kissed By The Ages requires you to carry a bauble, repeated Contingencies require upkeep, True Mind Switch still has a mortal form. None of those are immortality, merely delaying death by aging, only one of many causes of death. I am not familiar with Steal Death.

Immortality in this context refers to natural causes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality) Preventing death by external means is invulnerability.

[Flickerdart]

The wrath of an angry god is natural causes. :smalltongue:

[Herabec]

The wrath of an angry god is natural causes. :smalltongue:

This man speaks holy scripture.

[Vowtz]

immortality is beyond the reach of sub-Epic magic.
Immortality = Geen Star Adept 10, character level 15.

[Psyren]

The wrath of an angry god is natural causes. :smalltongue:

No, it's fiat.
Also, every god has enemies.

[Diefje]

No, it's fiat.
Also, every god has enemies.

As in "Screw you Nerull, imma keep this ho alive just to piss you off. Boom, immortality, suckaaah"?

[Psyren]

As in "Screw you Nerull, imma keep this ho alive just to piss you off. Boom, immortality, suckaaah"?

*Pelor proceeds to thrust his crotch at Nerull*
(Yes.)

[moonbomb]

4. ok, you ought to proofread that question and ask again. I think you were asking whether a spell or ritual that forces a change in alignment takes effect instantaneously or gradually. Answer: look at the description for the spell in question. the deck of many things has a card that does this, and it's instantaneous. other spells may be more gradual, in which case the creature in question might begin to reflect upon its actions with more compassion than normal, and begin anew trying to redeem itself. or something. by and large, it depends on what spell you cast.



so you suggestion then is more along the lines of general role playing and letting the pc choose when his alignment shifts say shifts by 1 alignment fact by 1 for every level gained until desired? I was more expecting a spell, or ritual that would do this. but yea I can see the simple answer in all this.

that ritual that someone mentioned from savage species is a great thing and kind of what i was looking for except i don't want to add a subtype just change the alignment so that this Balor can be a "redeemed villain".

[DoctorGlock]

It's a nonmagical item up to 25.000 gp. For magical items, it costs the caster more experience.

True, but if you use a gated creature there is no cost to you anyway. All he has to do is shout Pazuzu a few times and then get shafted by pissed off outsiders.

[Elfinor]

*Pelor proceeds to thrust his crotch at Nerull*
(Yes.) And a picture of THIS^ is what should be engraved on the holy symbols of Pelor's clerics.

Next PC: Holy symbol on his fly. Turn undead pelvic thrust - "BY THE POWER OF PELOR!"
And don't even get me started on touch spells...