Dragonwrought Cheese?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Am I missing something? Besides getting +3 to mental stats without taking physical penalties by starting as Venerable, I don't see the cheese of Dragonwrought Kobolds. Can someone explain the cheese involved and what books and where invovled. Races of Dragon is obvious.

[sirpercival]

You need the Loredrake Archetype, from Dragons of Eberron; also the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage from the RotD web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Gets you 3 levels of sorcerer casting for 2 feats.

[Flickerdart]

Great Wyrms can take Epic feats without meeting prerequisites. Opinions are conflicted on this - some people think that they can bypass the Epic requirement, others believe that all prerequisites are removed, but either way Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds are Great Wyrms and can grab at least some Epic feats.

[sirpercival]

That interpretation is a VERY slippery slope. The "age categories" in the kobold writeup do not necessarily equal dragon age categories which equate to racial hit dice.

There's also the wording of the statement that "true dragons automatically qualify for PrCs that have Dragonblood as a prerequisite". Some people take that to mean that DWK's auto-qualify without meeting other prerequisites.

[Little Brother]

Or, if you're a Spellhoarding Loredrake, you get +2 levels of Wizard, not Sorcerer. Better deal, I think.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You need the Loredrake Archetype, from Dragons of Eberron; also the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage from the RotD web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Gets you 3 levels of sorcerer casting for 2 feats.

I don't have Dragons of Eberron, which explains at least partially why I never saw that. Still, looking at what I do have, it allows me to advance my Sorcerer casting by 1 level without actually taking a Sorcerer or casting PrC.

EDIT: So loose interpretation of the rules for Great Wyrms, which Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds can be interpretted to be, means I can take any Epic feat since they can ignore any pre-reqs? Now I understand why they are considered so broken.

[umbergod]

I don't have Dragons of Eberron, which explains at least partially why I never saw that. Still, looking at what I do have, it allows me to advance my Sorcerer casting by 1 level without actually taking a Sorcerer or casting PrC.

you have to have at least 1 level of sorcerer to do the greater draconic rite

[MesiDoomstalker]

you have to have at least 1 level of sorcerer to do the greater draconic rite

I said 'advance' which strongly implies I have Sorcerer casting to begin with. Which lets me loose some Sorcerer casting through multiclassing or non-full casting PrCs without adversly affecting my casting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Race: Kobold (Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) in UA has no Con penalty)
Feat: Dragonwrought
Dragon Archtype: Loredrake (no drawback) (Dragons of Eberron)
Ritual (negligible cost): Draconic Rite of Passage (RotD)
Feat: Draconic Reserve (RotD web enhancement)
Ritual (negligible cost): Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (RotD web enhancement)

Optional:
Template: Spellhoarding (RP implications, +0 LA, very few drawbacks) (Dragon magazine 313)

A Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage gets +3 levels of Sorcerer spellcasting ability on top of his Sorcerer levels.

You can get the Spellhoarding template, which is the result of a mental disorder specific to dragons, to trade your Sorcerer spellcasting ability for Wizard spellcasting ability of equal level, plus other benefits. You get Wis -4, Int +2, Scribe Scroll and Eschew Materials for free, +5 Spellcraft, and instead of using a spellbook you write your spells on your scales, referred to as your spellhoard. You can scribe the same spells multiple times, with nigh-unlimited space. You can sacrifice a scribed spell to substitute the costly material and XP components of spells. You can sacrifice a scribed spell to cast it as though from a scroll. If you ready an action to counterspell, and successfully counter a spell, and sacrifice a gem of a minimum value based on the spell's level, and sacrifice a scribed spell of equal level from your spellhoard, then the countered spell is added to your spellhoard and you can prepare and cast it, regardless of what class list it's on.

With Spellhoarding you can use the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant in UA plus the Stalwart Sorcerer variant in CM, both of which gimp your Sorcerer spells known and spells/day, and just trade your Sorcerer spellcasting for ungimped Wizard casting of equal level. You can take one Wizard level for school specialization, still gain spells from your prohibited school via Spellcatching, gain Charm Person via the Draconic Rite of Passage to qualify for a Mindbender dip despite banning Enchantment, get Abrupt Jaunt, get the Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) variant for Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll since you get it via Spellhoarding anyway, etc.


Someone will mention White Dragonspawn, a template from the Dragonlance campaign setting which grants +1 level of Sorcerer spellcasting ability, positive ability score bonuses, wings, breath attack, and +7 natural armor for only +1 LA. However, White Dragonspawn is an inherited template that cannot be applied to creatures of the dragon type, and Dragonwrought kobolds are dragons as an inherited trait, even visible on their eggs before they've hatched. Combining the two is completely impossible unless you completely throw all flavor and RP under the bus and consider this game just a rules exercise with the sole purpose of winning.

[Flickerdart]

That interpretation is a VERY slippery slope. The "age categories" in the kobold writeup do not necessarily equal dragon age categories which equate to racial hit dice.
Here is the relevant text:
Drc 66: "EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels."
Kobolds, of course, have an Old age, and so Dragonwrought kobolds benefit from this. There is nothing in the text to suggest that Old != Old.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Here is the relevant text:
Drc 66: "EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels."
Kobolds, of course, have an Old age, and so Dragonwrought kobolds benefit from this. There is nothing in the text to suggest that Old != Old.

That sounds more like "ignores [Epic] requirement" than "ignores all requirments." And since most Epic feats require either 1) tons of feats, 2) ranks only possible in Epic, or 3) 9th level casting doesn't give you much to choose from anymore.

[Yora]

The whole cheesecake is sitting on a very slippery slope and it amazes me that anyone actually considers it to be a valid interpretation of the rules.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That interpretation is a VERY slippery slope. The "age categories" in the kobold writeup do not necessarily equal dragon age categories which equate to racial hit dice.

Where do the rules state that in order to have age categories a dragon has to gain racial hit dice?

According to the Draconomicon in the sidebar on page 4, creatures of the dragon type are true dragons by default, and only those which do not advance through age categories are considered lesser dragons. The word 'advance' means to move forward or proceed, and just growing older is a procession through age, there is absolutely no implication of a gain in power nor of racial hit dice.

[sirpercival]

Unless they mean the "advancement" entry in monster writeups, which (unless "by character class") always include hit die increases.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Unless they mean the "advancement" entry in monster writeups, which (unless "by character class") always include hit die increases.

But Dragons can advance by class levels or by age category.

[DeAnno]

Greater Draconic Rite is RAW and RAI, as is the +3 to all mental scores from being Dragonwrought. Everything else sadly is so cheesy that it reflects badly on those two things.

[sirpercival]

At no point am I saying that the "DWK's qualify for epic feats" interpretation is invalid by RAW. Just that of all the cheesewrought tactics, I find that one to be on the shakiest ground.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Can a Dragonwrought Desert Kobold become a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Desert Kobold? It's relevant to my breather (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220697)build.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Can a Dragonwrought Desert Kobold become a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Desert Kobold? It's relevant to my breather (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220697)build.


Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids
with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes
they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For
all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a
dragon and a member of her original race.

Age: After a dragonborn underoes the Rite of Rebirth,
she emerges as an adult creature regardless of her previous
age. If she lives for 200 years (see Table 1–1, page 10),
she enters middle age.

Table 1-1, page 10 does not contain true dragon age categories, so no Loredrake or Spellhoarding or epic feats pre-epic. However, you would still gain the benefit of not taking physical ability score penalties for aging for having the Dragonwrought feat, and you could still get the (Greater) Draconic Rite of Passage.

[Flickerdart]

Can a Dragonwrought Desert Kobold become a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Desert Kobold? It's relevant to my breather (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220697)build.
"Each one [dragonborn] enters the world as a halfling, an elf, a human, or a member of some other humanoid race". So no, you could not be both Dragonwrought and Dragonborn.

[MesiDoomstalker]

"Each one [dragonborn] enters the world as a halfling, an elf, a human, or a member of some other humanoid race". So no, you could not be both Dragonwrought and Dragonborn.

Darn, but at least I can do the Greater Rite of Passage and boost my Sorcerer casting by 1 level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Each one [dragonborn] enters the world as a halfling, an elf, a human, or a member of some other humanoid race". So no, you could not be both Dragonwrought and Dragonborn.

That looks like flavor text with no weight in game mechanics.


Prerequisites: In order to be accepted as a suitable
candidate, the supplicant must be non-evil and have an
Intelligence score of at least 3.

It looks like an Ogre could become a Dragonborn, as could a Warforged. However:

From the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar:

Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and
subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as
a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or
prerequisite that depends on race.

And from the Dragonborn Racial Traits entry:

Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids
with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes
they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For
all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a
dragon and a member of her original race.

It looks like they meant to imply that only Humanoids could become Dragonborn, but it takes quite a bit of searching to actually find it.

[Treblain]

You guys forgot Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike for huge amount of attacks. Granted, not as broken as the spellcasting stuff, but hey.

[Little Brother]

You guys forgot Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike for huge amount of attacks. Granted, not as broken as the spellcasting stuff, but hey.You can also use Wyrm of War Sovereign Archetype to gain bajilions(5, IIRC) bonus feats.

[Lateral]

That looks like flavor text with no weight in game mechanics.

It looks like an Ogre could become a Dragonborn, as could a Warforged. However:

From the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar:

And from the Dragonborn Racial Traits entry:

It looks like they meant to imply that only Humanoids could become Dragonborn, but it takes quite a bit of searching to actually find it.
Only one of those supports the humanoids-only idea; the prerequisites specifically state the requirements, none of which include being humanoid, and the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar says that you retain the original type, a clause that would be unnecessary if it were Humanoid-only. Furthermore, the FAQ determined that it could be applied to non-humanoids (specifically Warforged); while the FAQ can be unreliable, in this case it enforces what is found in the text, and what opposes it is only an implication from a passage which should have been worded more carefully.