[PF] Eidolon build help?

[jaybird]

Hey, so I'm planning on making a Summoner for an upcoming Evil campaign, and I'm having trouble with the Eidolon build. I'd like to have a quadruped focused around pounce and natural attacks. 20 point buy, level 8, 33000 GP. Here's what I have so far:

Human Summoner 8
Str 7
Dex 7
Con 7
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 20 (28)

1. Spell Focus Conjuration, Improved Initiative
3. Greater Spell Focus Conjuration
4. Cha +1
5. Augment Summons
7. Leadership
8. Cha +1

My DM has okay'd Leadership on the condition that my cohort is not a combat focus character, so I'm making him a Spy archetype Rogue skillmonkey (my character is the last son of a mafia family, and the cohort is his consigliere). Only Pathfinder material is allowed.

I'd like to have a Cha +4 headband and the cloak that gives you +2 to either Cha or to hide depending on which side you wear out, meaning you guys should have around 17000 GP to spend.

Thoughts about optimizing Eidolon feats, evolutions, and items? Thanks.

[Larpus]

Personally, I'd leave the beating to the Eidolon and other characters and would either go crossbow time or grab couple crafting feats and make use of wands, staves and the such. I mean, without damage enhancers such as high Str, sneak attack, favored animal, etc, even with a high-crit range, your damage output will be slim and will only make you a potential target to enemies.

As for the Eidolon, sadly you're stuck with a pesky cap of 4 natural attacks/round. But here is how I'd go with the build:
11 points to spend, you start with Limbs (feet) x2 and Bite for free.
Large [4pts] - +8 Str, +4 Con, increased damage die and couple other assorted bonuses and penalties. The bonuses here are way better than anything you could get with any combination of evolutions, it's only an issue if you live in dungeons where a Large creature wouldn't fit.
Limbs (arms) [2pts] - 2 arms, important to make use of that limit.
Claws x2 [2pts] - One set goes to one set of feet the other to the arms, now you can reach that 4 attacks/round cap.
Rend [2pts] - Unclear if you'd get two rends if all four claws hit, but even so, free attack, at 1.5 Str even!
Pounce [1pt] - The reason you went quad.

Sadly, that Bite is wasted for now, except for when, for whatever reason, you can only make a standard action so it's most probably better damage as a single attack.

[Blyte]

unless you are going master summoner variant I feel that augment summons is almost a complete waste, since you will have your eidolon out whenever possible. I would drop the focus on conjuration as well and perhaps go with enchantment for better dominates (dominating/charming fits an evil game). perhaps sub in skill focus UMD for augment summoning.

but if you opt for master summoner, you might be able to fanangle your DM into allowing you to have your eidolon as your cohort and you could start filling in your level differential with rogue levels (he should only be 2HD behind you as a cohort making him a 3outsider/3rogue) making him a very fine trap monkey and also easily a UMD master as well.

I would also suggest going with a much higher CON and toughness if you are planning to go as a normal summoner (non-master), as you will be able to keep your eidolon up (and yourself) much better. also taking some extra evolution feats instead of spell focus feats might help ya squeeze in some more diesel into that eidolon.

--- edit

seems you could do a lot more evil as a master summoner, letting your summoned monsters create diversions while you and your skilldolon pull off skulduggery. if you run a firstworld master summoner combo variant (first worlder with a half-strenght eidolon) you could have a bunch of gremlins running a muck. evil fey are pretty neato, and ya don't have to worry about people banishing your eidolon since he will be fey and not outsider.

[jaybird]

Alright, thanks guys. Larpus - sorry I edited over you. Perhaps I could swap out my Con and Wis scores, for a 16 Con and 7 Wis, then swap GSF Conjuration for Toughness? As for Enchantment spells, I'm not sure the benefits outweigh the costs, because if my Eidolon dies, that's it for the day, and I'm falling back onto my Summon Monster SLA which is still quite a good class feature. Plus, Glitterdust and Evard's Tentacles are both highlights of the Conjuration school, and my Cha will work out to 28 by level 8 anyways, so social interactions won't be much of a problem.

[Blyte]

unrelated but you could do some mighty fine evil using 'Marionette Possession' on a *willing* charmed towny or monster. you could then unfetter your eidolon and keep your body in a safe spot while you use some poor fool to do all your "adventuring".. would only be 80min at your lvl, 160min with an extend meta-rod or magical lineage trait.

would be a good way to never be linked to your evil deeds.

[Blyte]

Alright, thanks guys. Larpus - sorry I edited over you. Perhaps I could swap out my Con and Wis scores, for a 16 Con and 7 Wis, then swap GSF Conjuration for Toughness? As for Enchantment spells, I'm not sure the benefits outweigh the costs, because if my Eidolon dies, that's it for the day, and I'm falling back onto my Summon Monster SLA which is still quite a good class feature. Plus, Glitterdust and Evard's Tentacles are both highlights of the Conjuration school, and my Cha will work out to 28 by level 8 anyways, so social interactions won't be much of a problem.

I don't put a lot of stock into dust/tentacles.. they aren't bad, but I like to get the action economy advantage.. I like the master summoner.. skilldolon with with a wand, summoned mud elementals bantering with things, a charmed monster out there tieing up his buddies, you withdrawing to a more defensible position and hasting your allies.

[Killer Angel]

Thoughts about optimizing Eidolon feats, evolutions, and items? Thanks.

Here you are (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592&highlight=pathfinder).
Posts n. 6 and 9 are the ones you're looking for. :smallwink:

[Dyllan]

My first suggestion would be half-elf.

The alternate favored class bonus gives you 1/4th of an evolution point per level. That equates to 2 extra evolution points by level 8.

You could spend those to get the natural armor evolution twice. I know our handbook says you can't take it twice until level 10, but they've modified that ruling here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8fo1/faq#v5748eaic9o3i

Now you can take it at level 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20.

That would give your eidolon 4 more AC. Looking at it another way, it's the equivalent of taking the extra evolutions feat twice. I realize you give up a human feat to get it, but you're still ahead.

[Barstro]

The fun part about the Eidolon is that you can work backwards with pretty good flexibility.

If you know this character is going to be L20 (or whatever it will finally be), you can figure out what you want the Eidolon to be at that level, figure out what feats and skills you needs for that level, and then just make sure that you don't take any feats or skills along the way that would interfere with that plan.

Other than that small caveat, you can do pretty much anything each level with your Eidolon. Hell, once you get to L10, you can use Transmogrify to change its evolutions every day.

I personally like a single bite tripping eidolon with reach and multiple AoO. But you can really make whatever you want as long as you don't take a feat/skill early on that doesn't mesh with your final plan for your Eidolon. I think that most of the feats I would use for single bite can still be utilized for a multiple claw attack, or a multiple weapon attack eidolon.

Larpus gave a nice multi-attack build. Here is a suggestion for a single-attack.

Trip
Reach (Bite)
Pounce
Armor (x2)
Damage Reduction
Ability Increase (STR)
If you go Half-Elf, the extra two can be used by dropping AI, and getting Poison (Bite) (+2 for Con poison)
OR, if size isn't an issue, work Large in there for great bonuses. Just remember that Quadrupeds are "Long" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-templates), so you don't get extra reach for being large.

A single attack works great with Haste. And at L9, when you get multi-attack (if you have fewer than three attacks, you get a second attack at -5)

Single Attack Trip works great with reach and Combat Reflexes. But, if you won't need Combat Reflexes with your final Eidolon build, you might not ever need to use this build.

[grarrrg]

20 point buy, level 8, 33000 GP. Here's what I have so far:

Human Summoner 8
Str 7
Dex 7
Con 7
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 20 (28)


:smallconfused:?
20 point buy? Sure you don't mean 25 point?

7 = -4 x 3
16 = 10 x 2
18 = 17 x 1

This means you spent 25 points.
And has been stated, unless you are going Synthesist you should not tank your physical scores that much, ESPECIALLY your CON.
And while I can see boosting INT for skill points, there is rarely a good reason for a Summoner to have a WIS that high.

[jaybird]

:smallconfused:?
20 point buy? Sure you don't mean 25 point?

7 = -4 x 3
16 = 10 x 2
18 = 17 x 1

This means you spent 25 points.
And has been stated, unless you are going Synthesist you should not tank your physical scores that much, ESPECIALLY your CON.
And while I can see boosting INT for skill points, there is rarely a good reason for a Summoner to have a WIS that high.

D'oh, you're right.

How does this array look, better?

Str 7
Dex 7
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 7
Cha 18

Regarding the single attack vs multi attack Eidolons, what are people's thoughts on the differences between the two? I assume that the multi attack Eidolon isn't as good when going up against DR?

Half-Elf is a possibility...if I do drop Augment Summons and switch Spell Focus from Conjuration to Enchantment, that could be done fairly easily. Is the extra evolution worth having weaker monsters? Also, keep in mind that Augment does work for Summon Eidolon...

[grarrrg]

D'oh, you're right.

How does this array look, better?

Str 7
Dex 7
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 7
Cha 18



Much better.
Personally, I'd drop the Cha to 16 or 17 and use the extra points to bring Dex/Wis up to at least 8, but that's just me.

[Larpus]

Not quite, you're going to have the bite attack anyway, so you can either forgo it or one of the claw attacks to reach your cap, the usual advantage of attacking with the claws is higher odds of activating rend and the fact that you only need to upgrade the claws to be better at dealing damage.

That said, you can always opt to only use a single natural weapon attack and when you do that, that single attack somewhat follows 2-handed weapon rules and gets 1.5 Str and Power Attack, so regarding DR, a multi-attack Eidolon is about as good as a single attack one. Not to mention that it's pretty easy to add some energy damage to your attacks or make them magical in some way.

The main difference is speed of useability, single-attack Eidolons usually focus on getting different effects for their attacks, mainly grab and trip, and maximizing reach and AoOs. Multi-attack ones however, focus on getting as much and as strong attacks as possible per round (and are the main reason to go quad+pounce), but at the expense of not doing much beyond damage.

In the long run, you can actually build an Eidolon that has multiple attacks with great damage, reach and multiple effects, literally taking the best of both worlds. However, doing so is very expensive in evolution points and such a thing won't happen until the higher levels, so choosing one or the other is just choosing which you want to do first as eventually you can get both.

Also, depending on the rest of the party, single attack with multiple effects might be better as it doesn't make others look bad, after all with a multiple attack build you're likelly to be pulling much more damage per round than any melee, making them look and/or feel useless, while by tripping and grappling foes you're actually make them shine brighter as it's easier for them to hit tripped targets (and they get an AoO if they try to stand) and grappled casters have high chances of not being able to cast (and lock/harm your comrades).

[jaybird]

Hmm...so if I wanted a single-attack Eidolon, I would be better off with a biped? Well, our party is fairly oddball, as so far it's going to consist of an Oracle, Alchemist, Barbarian, as well as my Summoner. Now, I really don't think any Eidolon will outdamage a Barbarian of equal level and optimization, but if I'm wrong, feel free to mention it, as I'm not too experienced with building and playing fighty stuff.

Thoughts about feats for the Eidolon?

[Larpus]

Not at all, they both give you different perks and issues: biped locks you out of pounce (so no multi-attack goodness at higher levels) and it also has lower Dex, so it'd take more work to get more AoOs. However it also has a 5ft longer reach and better Will save. So there is no true winner in my opinion.

As for feats, depends on exactly what you plan to do with it, but Power Attack is always a good idea and if you're going single-attack, Ferocious Focus might also be good if your DM rules that it can be applied to natural attacks as long as you only use a single natural attack (which follows 2-handed rules, yadda, yadda).

Martial/Exotic Weapon Proficiency might also be good to get more attacks down the line, you get multiattack anyway, so why not put it to some good use?

[Barstro]

Hmm...so if I wanted a single-attack Eidolon, I would be better off with a biped?

Maybe if you wanted single-attack with a weapon. As I have shown many times, I'm partial to single attack bite with a quad.


Not quite, you're going to have the bite attack anyway, so you can either forgo it or one of the claw attacks to reach your cap, the usual advantage of attacking with the claws is higher odds of activating rend and the fact that you only need to upgrade the claws to be better at dealing damage.... Not to mention that it's pretty easy to add some energy damage to your attacks or make them magical in some way.


Just keep in mind that energy damage, reach, etc. only affects ONE attack for each evolution. So, only one of your four claws benefits. You might be able to convince your DM that both claws were from the same evolution, so two attacks should get the bonus, but I'm pretty sure that you cannot apply it to ALL attacks, even if they are all claw attacks. I would love to be shown that I am incorrect about this, though.


In the long run, you can actually build an Eidolon that has multiple attacks with great damage, reach and multiple effects, literally taking the best of both worlds. However, doing so is very expensive in evolution points and such a thing won't happen until the higher levels, so choosing one or the other is just choosing which you want to do first as eventually you can get both.

Not quite true. You can completely change evolutions each level. It isn't a matter of whether you want to start with multi-attack and eventually get better damage/effects; its all about "what do I want it to be this level?" You can leave the fight with a six-armed cat and start the next with a long-necked dog if you went up a level in between.

[grarrrg]

A semi-quick breakdown on getting the most of Evo-points/Natural Attack limit. I've been meaning to do this for a while, not necessarily relevant to 'this' thread, but I'll see if Saph can sqeeze it into the guide somewhere for easy future reference.

Natural Attack Rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks)
All damage numbers listed assume medium size, without the Improved Damage evolution. Assuming each 'limb' can only gain 1 type of attack (that is, you cannot have 1 pair of Arms with both Claws and Pincers).
Most attacks require a "base" evolution (Head/Limbs/etc...), an an "attack" evolution (Bite/Claws/etc...).
We will also be ignoring Manufactured weapon options.

Type: Bite
Cost: 3 (1 Bite, 2 Head)
# Attacks: 1 Primary
Damage: 1d6
Note: Gore does same damage, but costs 2 points

Type: Claws
Cost: 3 (1 Claws, 2 Limbs)
# Attacks: 2 Primary
Damage: 1d4ea.
Note: Hooves do the same damage, but are Secondary attacks.

Type: Pincers
Cost: 3 (1 Pincers, 2 Limbs)
# Attacks: 2 Secondary
Damage: 1d6ea.

Type: Slam
Cost: 3 (1 Slam, 2 Limbs)
# Attacks: 1 Primary
Damage: 1d8

Type: Sting
Cost: 2 (1 Sting, 1 Tail)
# Attacks: 1 Primary
Damage: 1d4

Type: Slap
Cost: 2 (1 Slap, 1 Tail
# Attacks: 1 Secondary
Damage: 1d6

Type: Tentacle
Cost: 1
# Attacks: 1 Secondary
Damage: 1d4

Type: Wing Buffet
Cost: 3 (1 Wing Buffet, 2 Flight)
# Attacks: 2 Secondary
Damage: 1d4 each

Type: Rake
Cost: 4 (2 Rake, 2 Legs)
# Attacks: 2 Primary (but only counts as 1 for Max Attack cap)
Damage: 1d4 each
Note: Only useable on a successful Grapple.

Type: Breath Weapon
Cost: 6 (4 Breath Weaon, 2 Head)
# Attacks: 1
Damage: 1d6 per HD
Note: Only useable 1/day. Can spend up to 2 more Evo-Points to gain up to 2/day more uses.

Results:
They actually did a decent job balancing out the attacks, with few "strictly better" options .There are various Evolutions that apply only to certain types of attacks (Poison/Rake/etc...) that can greatly vary the damage/usefullness of any given attack.
Slam is better than Bite (damage).
Claws/Pincers are better than Sting/Tail Slap (6 evo points gets 4 Claw attacks, but only 3 Stings).
If you are working against the Max Attack cap, then Slams are the best option.
Tentacles are the most efficient way to get more attacks, 1-point > 1-attack. They are a poor attack, but if you are a long way from the Max Attack cap they are easy to throw on (i.e. Biped with a Sword).
Wing Buffet is the least efficient, and can only be taken once (but the Flight evolution is pretty useful on its own).

[Larpus]

Just keep in mind that energy damage, reach, etc. only affects ONE attack for each evolution. So, only one of your four claws benefits. You might be able to convince your DM that both claws were from the same evolution, so two attacks should get the bonus, but I'm pretty sure that you cannot apply it to ALL attacks, even if they are all claw attacks. I would love to be shown that I am incorrect about this, though.
Well, wording seems to imply that it affects all of an Eidolon's attacks, not only it says "An eidolon’s attacks" as opposed to "one of the eidolon's attacks" or similar, but it also has no mention of being able to be selected multiple times, which is specifically mentioned with every other evolution that only affects one type of attack (iirc).

It's also a 2 point evolution, most of which modify all your attacks (Grab, Trip, etc).

Energy Attacks (Su)

An eidolon’s attacks become charged with energy.

Pick one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. All of the eidolon’s natural attacks deal 1d6 points of energy damage of the chosen type on a successful hit. The summoner must be at least 5th level before selecting this evolution.


Not quite true. You can completely change evolutions each level. It isn't a matter of whether you want to start with multi-attack and eventually get better damage/effects; its all about "what do I want it to be this level?" You can leave the fight with a six-armed cat and start the next with a long-necked dog if you went up a level in between.
Oh, I didn't mean that with an ominous "you're doomed" tone, my intent is that while he can do both at later levels, in the lower ones it's not the greatest idea to try to do both at once, he is indeed free to try one of the styles for a level and completely change on the next.

[grarrrg]

Just keep in mind that energy damage, reach, etc. only affects ONE attack for each evolution. So, only one of your four claws benefits. You might be able to convince your DM that both claws were from the same evolution, so two attacks should get the bonus, but I'm pretty sure that you cannot apply it to ALL attacks, even if they are all claw attacks. I would love to be shown that I am incorrect about this, though.

Your wish is my command. (all quotes from PFSRD)
Reach:"One of an eidolon’s attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack"
You are correct about reach (not sure about "1-Claw or 2-Claw" though)

Poison:"Pick one bite or sting attack"
Can only be taken once, only applies to 1-Bite OR 1-Sting attack. But that's ok, as you can only use the Poison once per round regardless.

Magic Attacks:" treat all of its natural attacks as"
Energy Damage:"All of the eidolon’s natural attacks deal 1d6 points of energy...."
ALL attacks get the bonus.

Improved Damage:"Select one natural attack form and increase..."
Push/Pull:"one type of natural attack"
Works by type of attack, so all claw attacks OR all Sting attacks OR...




Not quite true. You can completely change evolutions each level. It isn't a matter of whether you want to start with multi-attack and eventually get better damage/effects; its all about "what do I want it to be this level?" You can leave the fight with a six-armed cat and start the next with a long-necked dog if you went up a level in between.

You can change evolutions each level, but you can NOT change the base form.
The Evolution Surge line of spells can get you temporary abilities, and Transmogrify lets you rearrange as if you leveled up.

[Blyte]

For your consideration.

You start out level 8 in your game, but work up to this guy.. till then, you can use scrolls of "magic jar", you can spend all your starting money on gloves of storing or (Handy Heversack) and scrolls of magic jar.

Evil Summoner lvl 20

Race- Gnome

Stats- Max Charisma, the rest doesn't matter much (in this case).

Feats- SF: Necromancy, GSF: Necromancy, Extend, Spell Pen, G. Spell Pen, Bouncing Spell, Piercing Spell, Heighten Spell, Extra Evolutions x3.

Traits- Magical Lineage (Magic Jar), Adopted (Humans, bonus feat)

Favored Class Alternative- +1 Eidolon HP/lvl

Greater Aspect- +6 Charisma

----

Build a large killer eidolon, have it carry your body in a back pack, and your phylactery securely on its' person (think chris walken in pulp fiction)...

You then posses targets, using them as hitpoint batteries to keep your eidolon from dying, when each one dies, you simply return to your gem and continue to posses targets.

I didn't give this a lot of thought as to how you can more effectively utilize your host bodies, but you can possibly take the weapon skilled (all martial weapons) evolution from your aspect, and perhaps take armor feats to operate better in their armor.

-- at level 20 you will be unstoppable... dominate monster, heightened+piercing+bouncing magic jar possession, make sure your cohort or party members can do disjunction or some high level dispells in case they get cute with the protection from evils/magic circles, start to use summon eidolon spells extended (having your cohort with improved evasion stealthed carrying your body+phylactery) and use your freebie monster summoning 9/gates.

you will be a one man wrecking crew.

I didn't take a lot of time to check the facts/rules lawyer the validity of this concept, but at a glance it seemed legal (yet way overpowered)

[Barstro]

Showing that several bonuses DO apply to multiple attacks.

Thanks. I think Improved Damage contradicts itself in the description (going from one attack, to a form, then to one attack again), but I'd probably accept it as being for all attacks from a form if I were DM.


You can change evolutions each level, but you can NOT change the base form.

Dog and Cat are both quadrupeds. :smallbiggrin:

Since you were asking about Feats before. One for the Summoner that I think is rather important is Resilient Ediolon. It gives you a bit of a cushion if you fall asleep in battle.

[panaikhan]

Reading the wording for 'rake', it says "on a successful grapple".
Reading the wording for 'grab', it says "on a successful attack"

Seems the Eidolon entries would override the general rules for rake, giving the Eidolon a possible two extra attacks for each claw under the conditions (larger than the target, hit with claw, successful grapple)

-edit-

The Eidolon still has to hit with the rakes though - don't know if they are automatic according to the Beastiary entry.

[Barstro]

Reading the wording for 'rake', it says "on a successful grapple".
Reading the wording for 'grab', it says "on a successful attack"

Seems the Eidolon entries would override the general rules for rake, giving the Eidolon a possible two extra attacks for each claw under the conditions (larger than the target, hit with claw, successful grapple)


I believe that "grapple" is more of a condition than an attack, so you cannot grapple twice in a round (but you can make one attempt for each attack). My quick search didn't find anything preventing you from trying to grapple more than one foe, though.

Upon looking again; "Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target."

Looks like you CAN do that.

[grarrrg]

Evil Summoner lvl 20

Race- Gnome
.....
Greater Aspect- +6 Charisma


You cannot take ability increase.
From the PFSRD regarding (Greater)Aspect:
"He cannot select the ability increase evolution through this ability."


Thanks. I think Improved Damage contradicts itself in the description (going from one attack, to a form, then to one attack again), but I'd probably accept it as being for all attacks from a form if I were DM.

Well, if Improved Damage only applied to 1 attack at a time, then it would be HORRENDOUSLY weak. 1-evo point for +1avg damage gain? No thanks, I'll take a Tentacle instead.
Compare to Energy Attacks, which for 2-points gives ALL of your natural attacks +1d6 damage.
I'd say it is safe to say Improved Damage works on all attacks of a given type.


Dog and Cat are both quadrupeds. :smallbiggrin:


I was just pointing it out for the sake of completeness.

Besides, you can add 4 legs to a Serpentine base and call it a "dog". :smallcool:

[Blyte]

Darn, well then I would take proficiency martial weapons to make use of host bodies and/or skilled and/or incorporeal.

Its alright that you cannot have the +6 Cha, with bouncing+persistant+heightened magic jars you aren't going to have trouble making friends. The DC should also be static at the time the spell was cast, no? so you also get to benifit of the items+tomes on your person. or would the DC be adjusted as your soul becomes transient?

--- edit also a reduce person (permanacy) and some kinda energy resistant + physically resillient pack for your husk to be carried in might be a good investment.

[panaikhan]

Looks like you CAN do that.

hehehe 6-leg pounce FTW.
Potential of 12 attacks... nah, not broken at all :smallamused:

[Chained Birds]

I don't believe the Adopted Trait (Human) allows you to take the Human's Racial Feature: Bonus Feat. I believe it actually (or is sopposed to) grants you a bonus exclusive trait of the chosen race. So you can gain a Human only Trait and not a Human Racial Feature.

[Blyte]

you changed "racial trait" as it is listed in the srd under Humans to "racial features"

"Human
Racial Traits
+2 to One Ability Score: Human characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
Medium: Humans are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Bonus Feat: Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
....."

"Adopted
Benefit: Select a race trait from your adoptive parents’ race."

Edit: I don't deny that they *probably* are referring to traits that have pre-reqs requiring certain races, but as written it is fuzzy.

[Barstro]

hehehe 6-leg pounce FTW.
Potential of 12 attacks... nah, not broken at all :smallamused:

I'd say that makes the multi-limbed cat "cheaper" than the single-bite dog, but with multi-attack and haste, the cat gets 14(?) claw attacks, and maybe three AoO attacks per round, but my dog with multi-attack and haste can get three regular bite attacks and more AoO attacks than the cat due to the reach (that can only go to one specific attack) that each do about as much damage as two to three claw attacks, and they will also trip.

Either way; good times.

[jaybird]

Note: I'm not sure if this counts as necro, as I am the OP and I'm adding to the thread...if it is, I'll start a new thread.

/noob

So my Eidolon (quadruped) had 18 base Str, make that 26 with Large, a BAB of 6, and a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists. I'm going for the multi-attack claw build, so I have 4 claw attacks. I should be hitting on 14 (Str+BAB+Amulet-Large), and I took Improved Natural Weapons, so I should be rolling 1d8 (1d4->Large->INW) + 9 (Str+Amulet) damage per attack, right?

[Stone Heart]

you changed "racial trait" as it is listed in the srd under Humans to "racial features"

"Human
Racial Traits
+2 to One Ability Score: Human characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
Medium: Humans are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Bonus Feat: Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
....."

"Adopted
Benefit: Select a race trait from your adoptive parents’ race."

Edit: I don't deny that they *probably* are referring to traits that have pre-reqs requiring certain races, but as written it is fuzzy.

I don't have the link right now, but I do remember this one being explicitly answered as them referring to the character traits, not what you get for being a member of that race traits. I also feel that this is the logical conclusion to draw from adopted when it is a character trait. It was just bad use of the same word. Obvious comic link. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)

[Larpus]

Note: I'm not sure if this counts as necro, as I am the OP and I'm adding to the thread...if it is, I'll start a new thread.

/noob

So my Eidolon (quadruped) had 18 base Str, make that 26 with Large, a BAB of 6, and a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists. I'm going for the multi-attack claw build, so I have 4 claw attacks. I should be hitting on 14 (Str+BAB+Amulet-Large), and I took Improved Natural Weapons, so I should be rolling 1d8 (1d4->Large->INW) + 9 (Str+Amulet) damage per attack, right?
That sounds right.

Also, as mentioned before, if you use only a single natural attack (for whatever reason), it sort of follows 2HW rules and gets 1.5 Str added to it instead, so keep that in mind in case you need to bypass a big DR or something.

[Barstro]

... if you use only a single natural attack (for whatever reason), it sort of follows 2HW rules and gets 1.5 Str added to it instead, so keep that in mind in case you need to bypass a big DR or something.

Not sure it works that way.

from SRD (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/gamemastering/combat); If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

I don't think you can choose to use only one attack, I think that you must have only one attack available.

Or can you choose to do a standard action instead of full-attack, so that you (sort of) "possess" only one attack?

[jaybird]

That sounds right.

Also, as mentioned before, if you use only a single natural attack (for whatever reason), it sort of follows 2HW rules and gets 1.5 Str added to it instead, so keep that in mind in case you need to bypass a big DR or something.

Cool, thanks. Probably will take Energy Attack next level to pick up an extra 1d6 (likely acid) per claw. Can't wait for Huge :smallbiggrin:

Now, how does Multiattack work with my Eidolon, as I have no secondary natural attacks?

Also, I have Improved Natural Weapons and Power Attack so far, suggestions for my third feat? Improved Initiative is generally my default. Speaking of Power Attack, when I use it, I would have a to hit of +12 and do 1d8+13 damage on all four claws?

One more thing. With an Amulet of Mighty Fists, my Eidolon has a +1 enhancement to his natural attacks, and in the SRD it says that magic weapons bypass DR - does that mean my Eidolon ignores DR, or does that mean something else entirely?

[Larpus]

Not sure it works that way.


I don't think you can choose to use only one attack, I think that you must have only one attack available.

Or can you choose to do a standard action instead of full-attack, so that you (sort of) "possess" only one attack?
Hmmm...never noticed that one word there. By RAW it looks like you are indeed correct.

But regardless, on one of the adventures I'm playing I'm a Mr.Hyde Feral Mutagen Alchemist, and my DM as ruled as I just said and allowed me to have the 1.5 Str when only making a single attack (Feral Mutagen gives you a bite and two claws and Alchemists also have access to Pounce).

So far, yes, it's a nice strategic trick to fall back on when we find anything with a big DR, or when I want to deal high damage but not rip the thing apart, but is hardly overpowering or power shifting...hell, more often than not I do less damage than the Paladin by doing that instead of full-attacking, so even if it's not RAW, I'd have a really hard time as a DM to deny it.


Cool, thanks. Probably will take Energy Attack next level to pick up an extra 1d6 (likely acid) per claw. Can't wait for Huge :smallbiggrin:

Now, how does Multiattack work with my Eidolon, as I have no secondary natural attacks?

Also, I have Improved Natural Weapons and Power Attack so far, suggestions for my third feat? Improved Initiative is generally my default. Speaking of Power Attack, when I use it, I would have a to hit of +12 and do 1d8+13 damage on all four claws?

One more thing. With an Amulet of Mighty Fists, my Eidolon has a +1 enhancement to his natural attacks, and in the SRD it says that magic weapons bypass DR - does that mean my Eidolon ignores DR, or does that mean something else entirely?
Multiattack will be nearly 100% useless to you for now. But the best use you can give it is to grab any Weapon Proficiency feat with your Eidolon and give it a weapon, so now it can make up to 3 "weapon attacks" at full/-5/-10 and as many natural attacks as you can all at a mere -2. Yeah, the damage is very nasty, so check with the group before you go this route, it can make them feel bad/useless quite easily.

Power Attack, yes, once you decide to use it in a round, you use it for all your attacks that round, even AoOs it seems. But your calculations are correct, you take a -2 to-hit but gain 4 damage on each attack.

And the rules on DR are quite messy, I never fully wrapped my head around them and have found multiple conflicting answers with strong points. But so far it looks like, almost regardless of what you do to a weapon, it's still physical, but its magical enhancements do bypass DR.

So if you're poking a monster which has 20 DR/- with a +1 toothpick, you'll actually be dealing 1 point of damage all the time...or something, don't quote me on this, I'm not 100% sure this is how it works.