Seeking Guidance- D&D 3.5- Monk+VoP

[Omeron's Chosen]

Hello Playground! This is my first post so I'll try not to break any rules or step on anyone's toes.

I'm currently playing in a 3.5 edition game as a 3rd level monk. He's an Aasimar, and has taken the following stats/feats/alternate class features/flaws/traits/etc...

Stats
Str-14, Dex- 17, Con- 15, Int- 14, Wis- 20, Cha- 12.

First Level
Shaky, Murky Eyed.
Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph's Kiss, Stunning Fist, Human Heritage.

Second Level
Combat Reflexes, Intuitive Strike.

Third Level
Lay on Hands replaces Still Mind via Broken One Sub.
Improved Initiative.

I'm planning on taking the Saint template so the human heritage is a must. The GM approved its use for this purpose. Also, working on keeping Wis and Dex as high as possible.

Anyway, I'm looking for imput on where to go from here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!!!! :smallsmile:

[Zaq]

Oh my. My friend, you have perhaps picked one of the most unfortunate topics possible for your maiden post. I hope that whatever happens ends up being relatively gentle and definitely not scaring you away from the forums.

Basically, a lot of people are going to tell you that your build is horrifically suboptimal. (It IS horrifically suboptimal, but they may or may not be nice about it.) Monks and VoP tend to have, shall we say, an incendiary effect around here.

Now, it is definitely true that VoP Monks are, well, pretty weak in a lot of ways. Just how important is the Monk class to your character concept? Just how important is VoP? What are you absolutely unwilling to compromise for any reason, and what are you willing/able to change? What books do you have available? We need to know more before we can really help you.

No matter what, don't be discouraged, and I hope that my doomsaying is pointless and I just come off as a crazy guy rambling about how everything's going to go wrong. It's just that . . . well, it's Monkday, and VoP discussions rarely end well.

[Elfinor]

Also, to refine on what Zaq said, could you please specify whether you/your DM is comfortable with psionics? A lot of good monk builds make use of that.

[Omeron's Chosen]

To Zaq, thanks for the heads up. I'll have to cast barkskin before reading the future replies then. :smallwink:

Monk as a base class and Vow of Poverty are very much necessities for this character concept. He uses no weapons, just unarmed strikes, and carries no equipment but what simple tools he needs to survive. The character is very religious, going for Sainthood, and will also be going for Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace. Outside of that, the table is pretty much open.

To Elfinor, I haven't read much about Psionics, nor has anyone in my group of friends. I do however have access to the PsiH and EPsiH. I'm not sure if Psions would be viable in this campaign setting, but I may be able to convice my GM with enough info. I'm open to using ToB, but I don't really know much about it.

The main thing is maintaining the Holy Monk concept and the Peace concept.

Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Gwendol]

I do think the question is if the monk as a class is a necessity or not? Many of the monks features can be gained through feats or other classes, without deviating from the unarmed striker concept of the monk.

[hamishspence]

Unarmed Variant Swordsage (Tome of Battle) is the usual candidate for "monk equivalent".

[Omeron's Chosen]

It's probably too late to change my base class now, unless I convince my GM to let me retrain (via PHBII rules.) I also like the Wis to AC bonus since I'll be unarmored and unable to gain magical armor abilities.

[Arcane_Snowman]

It's probably too late to change my base class now, unless I convince my GM to let me retrain (via PHBII rules.) I also like the Wis to AC bonus since I'll be unarmored and unable to gain magical armor abilities. The point about Unarmed Swordsage is that it gives a bonus to AC as well, but it has Maneuvers which are quite nice things to have.

In regards to Psionics, PsiH is an atrocity and I recommend not coming in contact with it unless you're properly protected, in case it infects you with something. Even if it doesn't strict decontamination procedures and quarantine should be in place.

Expanded Psionics handbook however is a different story, the feats Monastic Training and Tashalatora, from Eberron Campaign Setting and Secrets of Sarlona respectively, allow you to stack your monk levels with a Psionic class for the purposes of most of the monk's special features, couple this with the Psychic Warrior and you're pretty well off.

[Elfinor]

Suggestion 1 (Psionic): Take all of your subsequent levels in Psychic Warrior. Take Monastic Training: Psychic Warrior (Eberron Campaign Setting) as a prerequisite for the feat Tashlatora (Secrets of Sarlona). Tashlatora allows Psychic Warrior to advance your flurry of blows, AC bonus and unarmed damage progression. That is in addition to the Psychic Warrior bonus feats and powers - they use Wisdom as their key manifesting attribute so your high wisdom score helps out a lot. Most Psychic Warrior powers are geared towards self-enhancement and hence don't violate your vows.

It is easier for everyone if the Psionics-Magic transparency rules are used (i.e. Psionics can affect/detect magic and vice versa). And use the Expanded Psionics Handbook - do not refer to the Psionics Handbook at all, that will only make things confusing. Most of the xPH material is on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm), for easy reference.

Suggestion 2 (Divine): Taking two levels of Cleric and then progressing to Sacred Fist (Complete Divine) uses much less obscure sourcebooks, does not involve psionics and is also a pretty good option. You'll need to pick up Combat Casting straight away at level 6 though (and use the fractional attack bonus progression variant from Unearthed Arcana, explained better here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/191628-fractional-bab-saves.html)). Some DM's will rule you can't qualify until your seventh level because they don't believe you can gain the feat until you choose the class or they don't approve fractional attack bonuses. In that case taking two levels of monk or unarmed variant swordsage and one of (cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)) cleric is a reasonable option until qualifying. Cleric (more specifically turn undead) also increases the viablility of the [Domain] Devotion feats from Complete Champion (very useful) and... allows use of the rather cheesy DMM (Divine Metamagic/Dungeon Master Migraine) feat from Complete Divine. You might also consider simply going for Monk 6 before taking a level in Cleric, for the bonus feat.

Other potentially useful feats, regardless of spellcasting/manifesting ability. Emboldened ones are practically must haves:

Snap Kick (ToB)
Improved Natural Attack (MM) Increasing effective size increases unarmed damage output significantly. Enlarge Person from the Strength (PHB)/Transformation (RoE) domain or the Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) psionic power are easy ways to do this and stack with the feat. You can just get a Wizard to cast it on you as well:smallsmile:
Improved Critical (PHB) + Roundabout Kick (CW)
Circle Kick (S&F [3.0])
Flying Kick (CW)
I can't remember any accuracy improving feats, I'm sure someone here has a better solution than Weapon Focus. Spells/powers help a lot in that regard anyway.

[Omeron's Chosen]

Thanks for all the input, I'll voice these options to my GM tonight and see what becomes of it. Any more advice/options would be appreciated.

Thank you all again! :smallbiggrin:

[Provengreil]

I can see why you've made these choices, it's a common newbie(not n00bie, the bad one) mistake. the reason is that, with the exception of the outsider thing at level 20 and arguably spell resistance(can stop friendly buffs just as effectively as enemy fire), no monk ability is actually a bad thing.

All good saves? fantastic. Immunity to poison/disease? great. Add WIS to AC for free? if you have a mod, great, if not, it doesn't hurt you. extra speed? handy. dim door? cool. big damage with fists? not bad, not bad. and so on. none of the abilities actually harm you or have a direct drawback, it's just that...well, they don't DO anything. when are you gonna have a fall worth worrying about and a wall nearby? by the time you hit the diseases immunity really matters for, like mummy rot(you don't ever want to take that save if you don't have), a monk's saves are gonna be high enough to make it, or the party cleric can heal it anyway. poison pretty much runs its course of effectiveness by level 10, absent the big ones like black lotus poison which are 4500 gp a pop, and are thus quite rare anyway.

Vow of Poverty is the same, but in fact even worse. at least with the normal monk you can buy items to cover your character's holes. if VoP is attached, this is explicitly disallowed. The most notable issue is that of flight. open a monster manual, count the number of things you're going to need a fly speed to properly combat. then consider that, to combat these things, your party members must not only buff you, but risk that not happening due to spell resistance. this takes time away from both you and them to get you able to contribute at all. another good way to consider it is to look in the magic item compendium. read all the nifty weapon enhancements, tools, and bracer effects. you are allowed none of these.

All told, options win, and with a monk +VoP, your only option is to hit it, and that's quite frankly not enough unless you do far more damage than most unarmed strikers will ever manage per hit. the best options have already been suggested above so I won't repeat them, but you should ask your DM for a way out.

All that said, Poverty is a character concept, and VoP is the only RaW way to have that concept and still get any form of bonus for it, so if you feel you really want to do that, use the vow. nobody in the playground will tell you this is wrong, and if they do, then frankly they are wrong for saying you are having fun wrong. all they will say is how to do it while still being at least somewhat effective.

last thing. If your DM says no to retraining as an unarmed swordsage via ToB, and no to psionics, and basically locks you into a low-power character bound to get outstripped by your allies, and you would rather try swordsage or tashalatora to contribute, try pointing him here and having him read the (probable) flamewar downthread. it might help your argument.


EDIT: you also mentioned you cannot wear armor and thus can't gain the enhancements. not quite true. there are two ways to do it. the first is bracers of armor. they have no effect aside from being allowed to have all forms of armor enchants, from straight AC bumps to the more useful fortification and all that jazz. the second one is a bit DM subjective: clothing is armor that gives +0 AC, has no penalties of any kind, but can thus be enchanted. so you can wear +2 hobo rags of greater fortification if your DM allows this brand of thinking. VoP naturally disallows any of this, but it's just an FYI for later characters.

[Big Fau]

One of the other ways to go about VoP is to use Meldshapers. Totemists in particular can get a lot out of it, but either the Incarnate or Totemist can make decent use of the feat.

[Keld Denar]

Its commonly believed that because a monk doesn't need "weapons" or "armor", that they aren't gear dependant. This is false. Monks are actually the MOST gear dependant class in the PHB. Because they get very little in the way of combat ability out of their class features, they rely on gear to give them the edge they need to perform in certain situations and adapt to certain conditions. Without that gear, they are grounded (literally) and found lacking.

[gkathellar]

One of the other ways to go about VoP is to use Meldshapers. Totemists in particular can get a lot out of it, but either the Incarnate or Totemist can make decent use of the feat.

And of course you can passably reskin the Totemist class as a monk replacement.

[Elfinor]

It might also be handy if we knew the makeup/roles of your party, any pertinent house rules and the DM's playstyle/campaign attributes (RP heavy, skill check heavy, lots of 'X' enemy type(s), high combat, mixed/varies a lot, low/high wealth, low/high magic etc.). I don't really think it'll change my advice (working on the assumption you can't retrain), or that of others (who seem to be working on the assumption you can), but it could.

Also, I feel I should add a common mistake most first time players and DM's make with psionics is forgetting that you can only spend a number of power points equal to your manifester level on each power you manifest, including augmentation. So no augmenting Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) to make you huge until you have seven levels of a manifesting class under your belt:smalltongue: Although... you can increase your effective manifester level with the Practiced Manifester (Complete Psionics: recommended for all multiclass manifesters) and Overchannel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#overchannel) feats.

Zerth Cenobite (Complete Psionics) or, failing that, Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) are alright backup psionic PRC's if Tashlatora is unavailable. EDIT: You can't meet the prerequisites, I forgot you traded away Still Mind.

[Telonius]

VoP Monk is pretty sub-optimal. Saint template is not. While the two probably won't exactly balance out, there are a few ways to make it a whole lot better.

You might want to look into the "Sacred Fist" prestige class from Complete Divine. It basically takes a multi-classed Monk/Cleric and increases its casting progression while giving full base attack bonus. It's definitely thematic, since they aren't allowed to use any weapons. The only prereqs you're missing are Combat Casting, ranks in know (religion) [though you may already have that], and divine casting.

The "Travel Devotion" feat from Complete Champion is usually recommended for Monks in general.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, Monk 2 is actually not bad in a build in and of itself. I'd suggest taking a level or two of swordsage, maybe retraining to use that third monk level to get it in.

From there, I like Psiwarrior, Totemist or Incarnate to Get Soulmeld/Chakurabind progression or Psionic powers.

[Waker]

Most of what was needed to be said has already been mentioned, but to address the issue of flying you can attempt to convince your DM to allow your character to be changed into a Dragonborn and then taking the wings option. The downside is that you'll lose some of your aasimar traits, but the upside is the permanent non-magical flying.
The biggest difficulty will be convincing the DM to ignore the ritual cost of 100gp (I think, away from book). If you can get him to handwave it via a quest or something, you'll be fine.

[Metahuman1]

Another thought, Get a Do some quests for a Wizard, maybe save there Loved one or something, and as a Thank You, they offer you a graft for free to get wings. It wouldn't really violate the VoP to allow this.

Another thought, See if he'll let you Gestalt with a Teir 4 class, since that's what Incarnate and Totemist are officially listed as. Then take a 1 level dip into sword sage.

And that feat in BoED's that let's you use Wis for attack rolls is probably also a good investment. Reduce MAD a bit.

[Getsugaru]

I can see why you've made these choices, it's a common newbie(not n00bie, the bad one) mistake. the reason is that, with the exception of the outsider thing at level 20 and arguably spell resistance(can stop friendly buffs just as effectively as enemy fire), no monk ability is actually a bad thing.

All good saves? fantastic. Immunity to poison/disease? great. Add WIS to AC for free? if you have a mod, great, if not, it doesn't hurt you. extra speed? handy. dim door? cool. big damage with fists? not bad, not bad. and so on. none of the abilities actually harm you or have a direct drawback, it's just that...well, they don't DO anything. when are you gonna have a fall worth worrying about and a wall nearby? by the time you hit the diseases immunity really matters for, like mummy rot(you don't ever want to take that save if you don't have), a monk's saves are gonna be high enough to make it, or the party cleric can heal it anyway. poison pretty much runs its course of effectiveness by level 10, absent the big ones like black lotus poison which are 4500 gp a pop, and are thus quite rare anyway.

Vow of Poverty is the same, but in fact even worse. at least with the normal monk you can buy items to cover your character's holes. if VoP is attached, this is explicitly disallowed. The most notable issue is that of flight. open a monster manual, count the number of things you're going to need a fly speed to properly combat. then consider that, to combat these things, your party members must not only buff you, but risk that not happening due to spell resistance. this takes time away from both you and them to get you able to contribute at all. another good way to consider it is to look in the magic item compendium. read all the nifty weapon enhancements, tools, and bracer effects. you are allowed none of these.

All told, options win, and with a monk +VoP, your only option is to hit it, and that's quite frankly not enough unless you do far more damage than most unarmed strikers will ever manage per hit. the best options have already been suggested above so I won't repeat them, but you should ask your DM for a way out.

All that said, Poverty is a character concept, and VoP is the only RaW way to have that concept and still get any form of bonus for it, so if you feel you really want to do that, use the vow. nobody in the playground will tell you this is wrong, and if they do, then frankly they are wrong for saying you are having fun wrong. all they will say is how to do it while still being at least somewhat effective.

last thing. If your DM says no to retraining as an unarmed swordsage via ToB, and no to psionics, and basically locks you into a low-power character bound to get outstripped by your allies, and you would rather try swordsage or tashalatora to contribute, try pointing him here and having him read the (probable) flamewar downthread. it might help your argument.


EDIT: you also mentioned you cannot wear armor and thus can't gain the enhancements. not quite true. there are two ways to do it. the first is bracers of armor. they have no effect aside from being allowed to have all forms of armor enchants, from straight AC bumps to the more useful fortification and all that jazz. the second one is a bit DM subjective: clothing is armor that gives +0 AC, has no penalties of any kind, but can thus be enchanted. so you can wear +2 hobo rags of greater fortification if your DM allows this brand of thinking. VoP naturally disallows any of this, but it's just an FYI for later characters.

Something you're forgetting is that the monk, who can use any part of their body as a weapon for an unarmed strike (Though I don't remember exactly how to do it, there is a way to be able to use each and every one of your limbs for unarmed strike at the same time, in which case you should have a look at this), is able to enchant himself; i.e., he can apply weapon/armor qualities to his own body as if he were equipment. VoP says you cannot possess equipment with magical traits; it says nothing about you having magical qualities. Also, there is a (sort of) weapon trait in DMII that is found under the specific weapons section. There is a "weapon" called the Ghost Gauntlet, which grants any weapon you hold the Ghost-Touch quality. Kind DM's allow that to be a trait style for armor as a +3000gp trait. This "trait" allows you to apply Weapon qualities to any weapon you hold. Apply the Gauntlet trait to yourself first, then the Transformative trait, so that any weapon you possess will have that trait. Transformative allows you to turn any weapon into any other weapon of the same size/type (One-Handed to One-Handed, but not Two-Handed to Light, etc.) while still counting as the original weapon when not in use. This trait on a Rod of Surprises gives you access to [B]EVERY MELEE WEAPON IN THE GAME!!!!! There is probably a way to get a Rod of Surprises while you have VoP. I don't know how, but somebody must. Add on other traits as well, and you are god-like. Can also get flying through this method, among other things...(Animated Trait on yourself?!? :smalleek:)


Another thought, Get a Do some quests for a Wizard, maybe save there Loved one or something, and as a Thank You, they offer you a graft for free to get wings. It wouldn't really violate the VoP to allow this.

Another thought, See if he'll let you Gestalt with a Teir 4 class, since that's what Incarnate and Totemist are officially listed as. Then take a 1 level dip into sword sage.

And that feat in BoED's that let's you use Wis for attack rolls is probably also a good investment. Reduce MAD a bit.
Partial Gestalt is a good idea. A good class for this purpose is [Brilliant Gameologists is down at the moment, will post ideas when it comes back up].
Tier List: (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=tiers%20d%26d%203.5%20classes&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologists.com%2Fboard s%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D1002.0&ei=9DmvTq3_MYXhiALR8fQb&usg=AFQjCNH2oRjnCAbtDWyg-ER3TOq_024j6A)

Hope all of this helps.

[Medic!]

I'm totally going to play Exalted's Advocate here :belkar:

A while back I made a straight up monk x VoP (also had some good rolls *fist bump* and he tore it up just fine. It all depends on your game. I personally love VoP as it was intended to be, a tool to enable players to roleplay pious poverty as opposed to a RAW math formula contestant for best-in-slot.

The only thing you'll really be missing is the inability to fly, but there are ways around that with no sweat. One thing I definately didn't regret was taking the ki blast option as a monk bonus feat (phb2). Having a ranged touch attack to fall back on for 3d6+wis mod dmg (as I recall) can be awful handy.

Druids are great candidates for VoP as well, and in the right context a warlock could take a VoP pretty well (wru ACFs to trade away UMD abilities to lessen the guilt?)

tl;dr: Don't let the man get you down, poverty monk can be a very fun and rewarding play as long as your DM and fellow players are playing DnD as it should be (fun).

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember, you can be an ascetic, meditative, unarmed, unarmored, highly mobile, gear independent striker who kicks ass like a shaolin monk in a wuxia movie without taking a single level in the Monk class in the PHB.

In fact, if you actually want to do that, it's probably best that you take, at most, NO MORE THAN 2 levels of the PHB Monk, because the PHB monk doesn't actually pull off that image particularly well, despite overtly attempting to do just that (ie, they tried and failed to do that).

[Elfinor]

Remember, you can be an ascetic, meditative, unarmed, unarmored, highly mobile, gear independent striker who kicks ass like a shaolin monk in a wuxia movie without taking a single level in the Monk class in the PHB.

In fact, if you actually want to do that, it's probably best that you take, at most, NO MORE THAN 2 levels of the PHB Monk, because the PHB monk doesn't actually pull off that image particularly well, despite overtly attempting to do just that (ie, they tried and failed to do that). That is optimal but going six levels isn't too bad a choice either - though I admit taking unarmed swordsage in place of monk levels past this point is better, even taking into account that they're the most difficult base class to use to their full potential in ToB.

Also, can the swordsage's damaging maneuvers deal nonlethal damage (Vow of non violence)? I can't find a reference to it anywhere... I guess the ones based off normal attacks are okay but what about the others?

[Metahuman1]

I'm pretty sure unarmed attacks can. Even if they can't Merciful weapon property would fix that.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Something you're forgetting is that the monk, who can use any part of their body as a weapon for an unarmed strike (Though I don't remember exactly how to do it, there is a way to be able to use each and every one of your limbs for unarmed strike at the same time, in which case you should have a look at this[Brilliant Gameologists is down at the moment, will post link when it comes back up.]), is able to enchant himself; i.e., he can apply weapon/armor qualities to his own body as if he were equipment. VoP says you cannot possess equipment with magical traits; it says nothing about you having magical qualities.

Both DMs and RAW beat this down.

DM: you really think I'm going to allow that?

RAW: fists aren't masterwork weapons.

[Metahuman1]

Both DMs and RAW beat this down.

DM: you really think I'm going to allow that?

RAW: fists aren't masterwork weapons.

To which I say "Ok, have it your way, Oh, and I'm PRCing into Kensai."

[Provengreil]

To which I say "Ok, have it your way, Oh, and I'm PRCing into Kensai."

well, if you want to start an arms race with the DM, you're off to a pretty bad start with VoP on a monk chassis....

As for enchanting your body, masterwork weapons aside, that's some major cheese sounding stuff right there. not to mention it fell apart on the rod of surprises...your fists are in no way a rod of surprise, and never will be. in addition to all of this, I'm pretty sure VoP explicitly disallows spending that kind of gp on yourself.

[Getsugaru]

Both DMs and RAW beat this down.

DM: you really think I'm going to allow that?

RAW: fists aren't masterwork weapons.

SRD Says otherwise.

From D20SRD
Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

I'm pretty sure that giving magic item traits technically counts as effect that enhances or improves manufactured weapons. Also, on the money factor, I asked my friends the following.
"Hey guys, if I were playing a monkish character with Vow of Poverty, since I don't get to have 'nice things,' and my cut would be equally spread among you, would you pay for enchantment weapon and armor traits to enhance me?"
"Sure."
"I think that's fair."
"If it weren't for the fact that my characters are greedy, I'd say yes."

If you can convince your companions to pay for it, it's fair game, esp. since the feat VoP specifically says you can't possess magical equipment. My body is not equipment, last time I checked.

[Keld Denar]

Thats cheating. Your cut isn't spread equally among them. You have to take your cut, and DONATE it. And you can't donate it to the other PCs, either. It has to be a cause.

Plus, doesn't VoP give you an enhancement bonus to hit? If so, it wouldn't stack with any enchanting your allies put on your body.

[Elfinor]

I'm pretty sure that giving magic item traits technically counts as effect that enhances or improves manufactured weapons. No, because (as previously mentioned by Jade Dragon) you can only add enchantments to masterwork weapons (i.e. they need to be more than just manufactured) using the craft magic arms/armor method. No matter what a monk tells you, she is not masterwork:smalltongue: There is nothing in the description provided that states that she is.

This appears under Creating Magic Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons) in the SRD.

Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon. It's still possible to have unarmed strikes enhanced with spells (Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm), Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm)) since they aren't covered by this description/section. And their spell descriptions specify it's allowed, as does the Kensai's Signature Weapon ability.

Your interpretation is not RAW, but I know it's not too rare a house rule.1EDIT: Also, Omeron's Chosen, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10635999&postcount=2) is a good summary of psionics, if you're familiar with spellcasting. Can you tell I'm a fan of psionics?:smallbiggrin:

[Provengreil]

Thats cheating. Your cut isn't spread equally among them. You have to take your cut, and DONATE it. And you can't donate it to the other PCs, either. It has to be a cause.

Plus, doesn't VoP give you an enhancement bonus to hit? If so, it wouldn't stack with any enchanting your allies put on your body.

assuming the body enchantments were allowed, it wouldn't stack, but it would have the same effect as putting greater magic weapon on a +1 keen longsword i think. they put the special enchantments on him, then VoP overrides the +1 bonus so you're swinging +4 fiery burst fists of golden ice. If a DM played with magic mart, allowed body enchantments to bypass the "no nice things" bit of VoP, and the party was smart about their choices on what to let the monk have....that could be fairly intimidating. a wing graft to get flying, some well chosen fist enchantments, greater fortification, great saves, VoP actually helps the MAD problem pretty well if nothing else, can get some decent AC, and so on. still not a caster, but played well i can see a character like that being decent. of course, this does involve pretty much nullifying your vow by buying stuff, so take that assessment with some salt.

[Keld Denar]

Its still cheating. Grafts are magic items. You can't just give the VoP character something to use. Read the feat. If he VoP character so much as drinks a potion given to him, BOOOM! one way ticket to fallsville.

"Yea, VoP isn't so bad if you let the character keep some wealth." is a falacious arguement given that VoP characters aren't allowed to benefit from ANY wealth. No matter how you cut it, other characters giving part of their wealth to the VoP character is CHEATING, and the VoP character giving any of his wealth to the other players is also CHEATING.

[Provengreil]

Its still cheating. Grafts are magic items. You can't just give the VoP character something to use. Read the feat. If he VoP character so much as drinks a potion given to him, BOOOM! one way ticket to fallsville.

"Yea, VoP isn't so bad if you let the character keep some wealth." is a falacious arguement given that VoP characters aren't allowed to benefit from ANY wealth. No matter how you cut it, other characters giving part of their wealth to the VoP character is CHEATING, and the VoP character giving any of his wealth to the other players is also CHEATING.

reread my last sentence. I said you're nullifying your vow, ie, that won't work outside of DM allowance.

[Metahuman1]

well, if you want to start an arms race with the DM, you're off to a pretty bad start with VoP on a monk chassis....

As for enchanting your body, masterwork weapons aside, that's some major cheese sounding stuff right there. not to mention it fell apart on the rod of surprises...your fists are in no way a rod of surprise, and never will be. in addition to all of this, I'm pretty sure VoP explicitly disallows spending that kind of gp on yourself.

Kensai isn't really arms race. Kensai Is falling not as far behind the rest of the party as normal. And if you've got all of 1 level of swordsage and your a Monk or a Monk/Totemest or Monk/Incarnate Gestalt for the rest of your levels, I promise, some Kensai is not gonna make you a game breaker, it's just gonna keep you competitive. Particularly if you can get the DM to go along with your signature weapon is Natural attacks and thus your unarmed attacks + your not insubstantial number of natural attacks are all getting the pick me up.

[Provengreil]

Kensai isn't really arms race. Kensai Is falling not as far behind the rest of the party as normal. And if you've got all of 1 level of swordsage and your a Monk or a Monk/Totemest or Monk/Incarnate Gestalt for the rest of your levels, I promise, some Kensai is not gonna make you a game breaker, it's just gonna keep you competitive. Particularly if you can get the DM to go along with your signature weapon is Natural attacks and thus your unarmed attacks + your not insubstantial number of natural attacks are all getting the pick me up.

I said arms race from the tone i percieved in your post. I may have been in error, but I read it like you might read the following:

Player: So i CAN'T be a ranger and get HIPS while in the forest because you're not allowing it because you think it's OP?
DM: pretty much, yeah.
Player: Well in THAT case i'll just play a druid, and be OP by RAW.

but like is said, VoP Monk is a bad place to start that race from, so I wasn't thinking kensai was anything horribly OP.

[Treblain]

I don't think the OP is in such a bad position. Take some levels of cleric and go into Sacred Fist. Take Travel Domain or Animal Devotion, and you can fly for a few minutes a day. Take Dragon Domain, and you can cast Magic Fang. Or just wear nonmagical gauntlets and cast Magic Weapon on them. He'll still get everything he wants out of the monk + VOP.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Its still cheating. Grafts are magic items. You can't just give the VoP character something to use. Read the feat. If he VoP character so much as drinks a potion given to him, BOOOM! one way ticket to fallsville.
VoP'ed characters can drink potions given by their teammates.

[Metahuman1]

I said arms race from the tone i percieved in your post. I may have been in error, but I read it like you might read the following:

Player: So i CAN'T be a ranger and get HIPS while in the forest because you're not allowing it because you think it's OP?
DM: pretty much, yeah.
Player: Well in THAT case i'll just play a druid, and be OP by RAW.

but like is said, VoP Monk is a bad place to start that race from, so I wasn't thinking kensai was anything horribly OP.

Ok, having re-read the post, I probably could have phrased that a to inflect a more suitable tone.

It's more of a "Ok, so since I can't buy weapons, what If I expended class levels and gave up class features to instead turn my natural attacks into equivalent of Magical weapons via a Prestige Class."

I'm fairly certain Most Dm's will ok that all things considered.

Treblain: Actually, I'm pretty sure RAW, you can just cast Greater Magic weapon on a Monk's body as part of the being treated as manufactured weapons clause. So all you need form the Cleric Dip is Travel and Animal Domains to Circumvent most of the problems right there.

If you do that, make yourself an Affiliation and have it Grant Sun Domain and several hits of Extra Turning on the pretext of being Haters and Hunters of the Undead. And a character who is exalted good should not have any use for the Undead.

[Elfinor]

I'm pretty sure unarmed attacks can. Even if they can't Merciful weapon property would fix that. They can yes, but I was referring to the extra damage. Ends up it's treated 'like sneak attack' so it will still be nonlethal. The OP can't have Merciful applied to his weapons, because he can only use a nonmagic weapon (parapharased) with VoP. It looks like he'll just need to be a bit careful with maneuver selection if he chooses the Swordsage route (especially with Desert Wind maneuvers, as they mostly do extra fire dmg rather than 'extra damage', also some ability drain Shadow Hand strikes etc.) but it remains a great option.

On rereading Vow on nonviolence I think going to Monk 6 is a bit more viable (I thought it was already OK, for the record) for more stunning strikes - a peripheral benefit to the feat is increased SS DC.


Actually, I'm pretty sure RAW, you can just cast Greater Magic weapon on a Monk's body as part of the being treated as manufactured weapons clause. You can. It's specifically mentioned in the Magic Weapon description, I linked to it in my last post.1 I cleaned up my large suggestion post - I forgot to account for non-fractional base attack bonuses (the default RAW) and suffered from other counting errors, the essence remains the same.

[Metahuman1]

Actually he could with a 2 level dip into Kensai. But anyway.

As for Maneuvers, For VoP, I'd have figured Setting Sun to be the Go to. It's fluff is all Judo/Akido, which are very defensive styles of fighting. You only use as much force as you need to and no more. Then I'd add Either Stone Dragon or Iron Heart, and sprinkle useful touches of Diamond Mind/Tiger Claw/Shadow hand, usually in the form of a maneuver here and a stance there.

But that's just me.



And come to think of it, wasn't there a spell somewhere that turned damage on the affected weapon(s) into nonlethal as per the Merciful property?

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm another proponent of the Sacred Fist route (you'll love all the cleric buff spells boosting your combat prowess) but the problem is you'll have to have a serious discussion with your DM.

By RAW, a cleric with the Vow of Poverty feat is not allowed to possess a holy symbol, which serves as the Divine Focus for a large number of his spells. (Divine Power, Righteous Might and divine favor, three really nice combat enhancing spells, all require a Divine Focus)

There is an orison in Complete Champion, I believe, aptly named summon holy symbol, that you could use, but it has a limited duration and with no bonus orisons per day for a high Wisdom score you would have a problem keeping it up all day.

However, this is a rare situation where the RAW is often dismissed (like multiclassing XP penalties) because you're playing a difficult character for the roleplaying possibilities.

Ask your DM if your Vow of Poverty will forbid you from carrying a holy symbol. If he says yes, you should find another route (I suggest the divine bard, don't remember the book it's in), but if not, then have fun playing a sacred fist.

[Mooncrow]

I'm another proponent of the Sacred Fist route (you'll love all the cleric buff spells boosting your combat prowess) but the problem is you'll have to have a serious discussion with your DM.

By RAW, a cleric with the Vow of Poverty feat is not allowed to possess a holy symbol, which serves as the Divine Focus for a large number of his spells. (Divine Power, Righteous Might and divine favor, three really nice combat enhancing spells, all require a Divine Focus)

There is an orison in Complete Champion, I believe, aptly named summon holy symbol, that you could use, but it has a limited duration and with no bonus orisons per day for a high Wisdom score you would have a problem keeping it up all day.

However, this is a rare situation where the RAW is often dismissed (like multiclassing XP penalties) because you're playing a difficult character for the roleplaying possibilities.

Ask your DM if your Vow of Poverty will forbid you from carrying a holy symbol. If he says yes, you should find another route (I suggest the divine bard, don't remember the book it's in), but if not, then have fun playing a sacred fist.

Worldly FocusFoE is usable if your DM doesn't hand wave the Divine Focus restriction away.

[Rubik]

If you're a nature cleric, use the druid's holy symbol? Holly is free.

[NeoSeraphi]

If you're a nature cleric, use the druid's holy symbol? Holly is free.

Too many alignment restrictions. Assuming you must have at least one part of your alignment be neutral to represent the balance of nature in order to draw on nature's power (as a druid does) it wouldn't work, as his character is Lawful Good (Lawful is a monk alignment restriction, Good is an exalted restriction)

[Rubik]

Too many alignment restrictions. Assuming you must have at least one part of your alignment be neutral to represent the balance of nature in order to draw on nature's power (as a druid does) it wouldn't work, as his character is Lawful Good (Lawful is a monk alignment restriction, Good is an exalted restriction)Isn't Ehlonna NG? And Mielikki is as well, IIRC.

One step away, y'know. That's LG/NG/CG, for those keeping count, and since you're exalted anyway...

[Elfinor]

And come to think of it, wasn't there a spell somewhere that turned damage on the affected weapon(s) into nonlethal as per the Merciful property? I wouldn't be surprised:smalltongue: but I don't know anything about that. There is an exalted feat that turns all damage to nonlethal; he gets a lot of free ones. He'd probably be better off using his using his fists anyway, since they're already switchable to nonlethal and increase in damage as he gains levels but his weapons won't without PrC/feat investment.
Isn't Ehlonna NG? And Mielikki is as well, IIRC.

One step away, y'know. That's LG/NG/CG, for those keeping count, and since you're exalted anyway... I think he's a follower of Ilmater because of the substitution level? Since a material component pouch is allowed, it seems like they intended to put a holy symbol in the exceptions, but just missed it. It's not in the errata either:smallsigh:

All the other class suggestions I'm familiar with don't have this 'issue' (more Monk, unarmed variant Swordsage, Tashlatora Psychic Warrior, Kensai). Not sure about the incarnum ones (Totemist, Incarnate).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Isn't Ehlonna NG? And Mielikki is as well, IIRC.

One step away, y'know. That's LG/NG/CG, for those keeping count, and since you're exalted anyway...

*facepalm*

Druids are different.

[NeoSeraphi]

Since a material component pouch is allowed, it seems like they intended to put a holy symbol in the exceptions, but just missed it. It's not in the errata either:smallsigh:

No way. Spellbooks are banned too. They definitely wanted to boost sorcerers while nerfing prepared casters. (Other than druids)

[Elfinor]

No way. Spellbooks are banned too. They definitely wanted to boost sorcerers while nerfing prepared casters. (Other than druids) Quick scrounge around the website reveals they did intend it, you're right. Proof of your rightness (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a).

You'd think Clerics would be more supported by VoP:smallannoyed: Hmmmm... maybe prepare the summon holy symbol spell that you mentioned in a higher level spell slot? It eats into your spells per day though, especially without Extend Spell (and persist, should he continue along that path). Not to mention it costs a standard action to cast. *Gasp* A weakened cleric! However will I survive?!:smallbiggrin:

Several spells are still castable like:
Word of Recall (thanks, Redcloak), Cure spells, Searing Light, Dispel Magic, Lesser Restoration. Anything that doesn't require a divine focus.
A holy symbol is still required for Divine Power, unfortunately.

[NeoSeraphi]

Quick scrounge around the website reveals they did intend it, you're right. Proof of your rightness (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a).


Yes, I've read that article before, though I didn't think to link to it. Personally I'm glad they intentionally shut out the Tier 1s (save Druid). It's not like they needed better AC at low levels when it was actually possible to kill them.



You'd think Clerics would be more supported by VoP:smallannoyed: Hmmmm... maybe prepare the summon holy symbol spell that you mentioned in a higher level spell slot? It eats into your spells per day though, especially without Extend Spell (and persist, should he continue along that path). Not to mention it costs a standard action to cast. *Gasp* A weakened cleric! However will I survive?!:smallbiggrin:


Definitely not a good idea for a mutliclassed cleric/monk, as cleric has pretty low spells per day to begin with, and with that large feat tax for Sacred Fist, you're more than likely not persisting anything. (You might be able to afford Practiced Spellcaster though)



Several spells are still castable like:
Word of Recall (thanks, Redcloak), Cure spells, Searing Light, Dispel Magic, Lesser Restoration. Anything that doesn't require a divine focus.
A holy symbol is still required for Divine Power, unfortunately.

Those are all nice, but they're not combat-based buffs like the ones I mentioned (the big three: divine power, righteous might, divine favor).

If he's not going to get his sweet combat buffs as a cleric/sacred fist, he's better off going Tashlatora/PsyWar, in my opinion.

[Treblain]

I don't really get the holy symbol thing. VoP don't specifically allow one like it does for spell component pouches, and the linked column implies it's banned, but where does the feat explicitly ban one? What if your religion's holy symbol is a simple weapon, or your robe's belt buckle? What if you have spell component pouch, and one of the worthless components it contains is a glass bead, and a glass bead is your religion's holy symbol?

[NeoSeraphi]

I don't really get the holy symbol thing. VoP don't specifically allow one like it does for spell component pouches, and the linked column implies it's banned, but where does the feat explicitly ban one? What if your religion's holy symbol is a simple weapon, or your robe's belt buckle? What if you have spell component pouch, and one of the worthless components it contains is a glass bead, and a glass bead is your religion's holy symbol?


Holy Symbol, Silver or Wooden

A holy symbol focuses positive energy. A cleric or paladin uses it as the focus for his spells and as a tool for turning undead. Each religion has its own holy symbol

A holy symbol is defined as an item that costs money in the PHB. See that part where it says "silver or wooden"? A holy symbol is an amulet (made out of silver or wood) that has a picture of your deity's symbol carved into it.

A wooden holy symbol costs 1 gp, which is more than the allowed amount by the feat.

[Treblain]

Yeah, forget I asked. I was going to wonder how a chunk of wood is worth more than its weight in gold, but forget it. The D&D economy is the only thing more nonsensical than VoP.

[NeoSeraphi]

Yeah, forget I asked. I was going to wonder how a chunk of wood is worth more than its weight in gold, but forget it. The D&D economy is the only thing more nonsensical than VoP.

It is pretty strange. I mean, generally speaking, an NPC makes 2 silver a day, and spends about 2 coppers of that to feed himself and his family. And yet, clerics are able to afford holy symbols, when all they do is sit around and pray (though I suppose those could be granted to them by the church)

[Omeron's Chosen]

Psionics are in and I get to practically rebuild my char from the ground up after my Sainthood, (death and divine intervention can have that affect on people.) I'll be a Funky Monk with psychic powers yet! And perhaps a slightly higher BAB. I will however still keep my vows and exalted feats and will likely keep at least two levels of monk...

For the sake of previous work I've done... I calculated values for attack bonuses and ac bonuses at 20th level as a Sainted Monk 18 Aasimar.

Sainted Aasimar Monk 18- ECL 20
Strength: Base- 14 + VoP- 4 = 18 (+4)
Dexterity: Base- 17 + Level- 1 + VoP- 6 = 24 (+7)
Constitution: Base- 15 + Saint- 2 = 17 (+3)
Intelligence: Base- 14 = 14 (+2)
Wisdom: Base- 20 + Level- 4 + VoP- 8 + Saint- 2 = 34 (+12)
Charisma: Base- 12 + VoP- 2 + Saint- 4 = 18 (+4)

Armor Class:
Base- 10 + Dex- 7 + Monk Wis- 12 + Monk AC- 3 + VoP AC- 10 + VoP Def- 3 + VoP NA- 2 + Saint Wis Insight- 12 + VoPeace NA, Def, AC bonus- 2+2+2
Total = 65

With intuitive Strike that puts my Flurry at 25/25/25/20/15 and doing
2d8+9+(1d6 fists of iron)+(2d6+1 vs evil)+(1d4 vs evil outsiders and evil undead) And it's magical, good, lawful, and holy aligned.

A few immunities, some damage reduction, energy resistances, fast healing, fast move, run up walls... Thoughts?

Also, since Vow of Peace says you may not do ability damage, does that mean you wouldn't be able to use the touch of golden ice exalted feat?

Thanks again to everyone for your input! :smallbiggrin: I really appreciate it!!!

[Gavinfoxx]

Not Lesser Aasimar or LA buyoff, then?

Go for Monk 2/Ardent 16 or Monk2/Psychic Warrior 16 with Tashalatora.

[Omeron's Chosen]

The Aasimar LA was bought off, only a +1, Saint is +2.

I'll likely do Tash and Psy War.
If somone wants to be kind enough to through a fleshed out build my way, I'd gladly accept it. :smallwink:

Thanks again everyone! :smallbiggrin:

[Elfinor]

It is pretty strange. I mean, generally speaking, an NPC makes 2 silver a day, and spends about 2 coppers of that to feed himself and his family. And yet, clerics are able to afford holy symbols, when all they do is sit around and pray (though I suppose those could be granted to them by the church) On the odd occasion that they sell their spellcasting services to someone, they'd probably make a fair bit.


-snip- Oh awesome, you got it approved! I hope you find psionics as enjoyable as I have.

Yes, going for Monk 2/Psy War 16 is a good option. You don't get the immunities and speed of a full Monk but the psionic powers and bonus feats that you get far more than make up for it. Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) is your friend:smallbiggrin:

There's a table here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Monk#Table:_Monk_Unarmed_Damage_by_Size) that shows how much damage Huge and larger monks do, based on page 28 of the DMG. You'll be working along Huge lines with an Expansion (Gargantuan with augmentation) and the Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) feat (one effective size increase for unarmed strikes).

You won't be able to use Touch of Golden Ice, no. Ravages/Afflictions are normally useable by good characters but you've taken a vow on top of that.

EDIT: Accuracy increases are probably the next priority after size increases for unarmed combat.

EDIT II: If you can get a wizard (party wizard or otherwise) to permanency enlarge person on you, that saves you casting expansion yourself every combat unless it gets dispelled.

Downside: You're permanently large, it looks odd. Also, it doesn't quite have the same kick as an augmented Expansion but at least you can save your PP for more difficult fights.

Heh, I'm not going to make a build. I usually just throw suggestions out to players (including mine) and expect them to wing it from there as they gain levels, based on the campaign. Good luck though.

[Provengreil]

Yeah, forget I asked. I was going to wonder how a chunk of wood is worth more than its weight in gold, but forget it. The D&D economy is the only thing more nonsensical than VoP.

still has nothing on the battletech one though

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Obligitory 2 level Martial Monk/UA Monk Variant plug.

[Doc Roc]

I will say that I'm very fond of ardent, particularly dominant ideal ardent. Check it out (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a).

[Getsugaru]

Sorry, my mistake. I was thinking of Pathfinder. It works that way in Pathfinder, confirmed on Paizo's board. Again, my mistake. Sorry for the mix-up.

Also, on the rod of surprises, you may not be able to have it with VoP; I understand this. I was just trying to give an example to go with my "enchant yourself" post, which, again, is Pathfinder, not 3.5. Rod of Surprises with Transformative is a great combo, though. Every Melee Weapon in Existence would be good for any class, esp. the Fighter or Monk w/o VoP. Just means it can't be used this time.

[Omeron's Chosen]

Alright, almost have my build done. Quick question; according to the SRD, the monk's unarmed damage dopes not improve past level 20. Does that mean that past ECL 16 Superior Unarmed Strike does not increase your unarmed damage?

Also, can Native Outsiders be raised from the dead?

Thanks all!!!

[hamishspence]

From the SRD:

Native Subtype
A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

[Omeron's Chosen]

Thanks Hamish! That saves me a feat then!!! :smallbiggrin:

Edit
Got Swordsage'd. I don't mind being unable to have enlarge person cast on me. I just found out we won't be having a primary spellcaster in our group. :smallfrown: I'll still be doing oodles more damage now than I would have been without optimization.

[Rubik]

Thing is, you don't become a native outsider. You're TREATED as a native outsider, which means you lose access to all the good stuff that comes with being humanoid (such as Enlarge Person) without any of the goodies that come along with actually being an outsider (except that you're no longer affected by Charm/Dominate Person, which you're practically immune to anyway due to your saves).

[Elfinor]

Alright, almost have my build done. Quick question; according to the SRD, the monk's unarmed damage dopes not improve past level 20. Does that mean that past ECL 16 Superior Unarmed Strike does not increase your unarmed damage? It does not, you are correct.

[Omeron's Chosen]

Right on, that'll be a free slot to retrain at higher levels then.

[Omeron's Chosen]

Another question, does the following chain work?
Psi Lion's Pounce, Flying Kick, Flurry, Snap Kick?

Edit
Also, could someone tell me/remind me what the feat is that effectively doubles the stun length of stunning fist? Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Ok, so I'm a bit confused about your goals for this character, the nature of the campaign, and how they will interact.


To Zaq, thanks for the heads up. I'll have to cast barkskin before reading the future replies then. :smallwink:

Monk as a base class and Vow of Poverty are very much necessities for this character concept. He uses no weapons, just unarmed strikes, and carries no equipment but what simple tools he needs to survive. The character is very religious, going for Sainthood, and will also be going for Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace. Outside of that, the table is pretty much open.

*snip*

The main thing is maintaining the Holy Monk concept and the Peace concept.

Thanks! :smallsmile:

So you want to have Vow of Poverty, Vow of Non-Violence, and Vow of Peace. This means that you can't engage most threats a traditional D&D party would - not a problem in and of itself, as long as it fits the campaign and the rest of the party.

Then comes:


Psionics are in and I get to practically rebuild my char from the ground up after my Sainthood, (death and divine intervention can have that affect on people.) I'll be a Funky Monk with psychic powers yet! And perhaps a slightly higher BAB. I will however still keep my vows and exalted feats and will likely keep at least two levels of monk...

For the sake of previous work I've done... I calculated values for attack bonuses and ac bonuses at 20th level as a Sainted Monk 18 Aasimar.

Sainted Aasimar Monk 18- ECL 20
Strength: Base- 14 + VoP- 4 = 18 (+4)
Dexterity: Base- 17 + Level- 1 + VoP- 6 = 24 (+7)
Constitution: Base- 15 + Saint- 2 = 17 (+3)
Intelligence: Base- 14 = 14 (+2)
Wisdom: Base- 20 + Level- 4 + VoP- 8 + Saint- 2 = 34 (+12)
Charisma: Base- 12 + VoP- 2 + Saint- 4 = 18 (+4)

Armor Class:
Base- 10 + Dex- 7 + Monk Wis- 12 + Monk AC- 3 + VoP AC- 10 + VoP Def- 3 + VoP NA- 2 + Saint Wis Insight- 12 + VoPeace NA, Def, AC bonus- 2+2+2
Total = 65

With intuitive Strike that puts my Flurry at 25/25/25/20/15 and doing
2d8+9+(1d6 fists of iron)+(2d6+1 vs evil)+(1d4 vs evil outsiders and evil undead) And it's magical, good, lawful, and holy aligned.

A few immunities, some damage reduction, energy resistances, fast healing, fast move, run up walls... Thoughts?

Also, since Vow of Peace says you may not do ability damage, does that mean you wouldn't be able to use the touch of golden ice exalted feat?

Thanks again to everyone for your input! :smallbiggrin: I really appreciate it!!!

So it seems that you're optimizing for AC, attacks, and damage. That suggests, to me, that your party is going the traditional "Kill Stuff," (or rather, "Beat Stuff Up,") "and Take Their Stuff," model of adventuring, which wouldn't jive with a Vow of Poverty/Non-Violence/Peace type character, generally speaking (not saying it can't be made to work, just that it would take a conscious effort to make it do so).

That leaves me with the question of "What are the build goals for this character?"

[Elfinor]

Another question, does the following chain work?
Psi Lion's Pounce, Flying Kick, Flurry, Snap Kick?Urgh... the wording WoTC uses for pounce is atrocious.


When you charge, you can make a full attack in the same round. Strict RAW
Flying Kick only applies the damage to the charge action, which can only have one attack at the end. After making the charge, you can make a full attack (including flurry, snap kick etc.) but this is not a part of the charge action and hence doesn't benefit from Flying Kick. What this does mean is that you actually get more attacks (charge attack+full attack) from a pounce than a full attack action.

Note that, strictly speaking, the +2 attack bonus/-2 AC from the charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) still applies to your full attack action. It specifically lasts for one turn, and does not apply to the charge action only.

If you were my player...
For what it's worth, when I DM Pounce, I have the charge action include a full attack at the end, including any TWF and flurry/snap kick attacks, and only allow charge bonuses (+2 attack, Flying Kick, Leap Attack etc.) on the first attack. The AC penalty remains for one turn.

That way you don't get more attacks out of it. It makes more sense to me that way. Your DM may or may not think the same way.


Edit
Also, could someone tell me/remind me what the feat is that effectively doubles the stun length of stunning fist? Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

I'm not sure if there's anything else but Pain Fist (Complete Warrior) sort of counts, opponents are nauseated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated) for one round after being stunned, so they can only take a move action. Tashlatora doesn't give extend the monk's increased Stunning Fist uses to PsyWar/Ardent, so you'll need to be a bit more conservative with Stunning Fist use than a Full Monk build.

EDIT: I can't remember if nauseating opponents is against one of your vows, so it might be best to double check that. It's the next 'stage' up from being sickened, if that helps.

[Omeron's Chosen]

That leaves me with the question of "What are the build goals for this character?"

The basic concept was to build a devoutly religious monk character. From reading the boards, I saw how underpowered that would be. By using the Psionic build, I do more damage. I'm a big role play enthusiast but also like to have the best build available. I believe I've achieved that now, (as compared to the other's I'm playing with in this campaign.)

Edit:
Thanks Elfinor, I'll talk it over with my DM.

Will update soon with finished build, recalibrating feats right now.
:smallbiggrin:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

The basic concept was to build a devoutly religious monk character. From reading the boards, I saw how underpowered that would be. By using the Psionic build, I do more damage. I'm a big role play enthusiast but also like to have the best build available. I believe I've achieved that now, (as compared to the other's I'm playing with in this campaign.)

Edit:
Thanks Elfinor, I'll talk it over with my DM.

Will update soon with finished build, recalibrating feats right now.
:smallbiggrin:

I'm still unsure of what you mean by "best build available." If I were to construct what I thought was the "best build available" around the concept of a devoutly religious monk character, I would probably base it off of a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), with various PrCs to enhance those "monk" features I wish to accentuate (so, if a "monk" to you fights unarmed, I'd be going Sacred Fist, if your "monk" fights in armor with a longsword, I go another direction (probably Ruby Knight Vindicator)). The power in those builds, however, is not the damage I can deal, or something like that - the power is that a Cleric is a Tier 1 full caster, with an amazing spell list which can conceivably do anything. A Tash PsyWar can't do that (though it could probably achieve higher damage), a Tash Ardent could approach that (or exceed it, at certain levels of optimization, though at those same levels the Cleric has done the same, so it's basically a wash). But that definition of "best" may not be your definition of "best" which is why my confusion remains. I guess a better question would be "Best at what?"

Now you also say "...as compared to the other's I'm playing with in this campaign." I must wonder, then, what are the others playing? It may be that a Tash PsyWar is more appropriate for the power level of this game than a Cloistered Cleric/PrC monster, but that depends, again, on what you want the character to be able to do, and how.

[Omeron's Chosen]

I'm still unsure of what you mean by "best build available." If I were to construct what I thought was the "best build available" around the concept of a devoutly religious monk character, I would probably base it off of a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), with various PrCs to enhance those "monk" features I wish to accentuate (so, if a "monk" to you fights unarmed, I'd be going Sacred Fist, if your "monk" fights in armor with a longsword, I go another direction (probably Ruby Knight Vindicator)). The power in those builds, however, is not the damage I can deal, or something like that - the power is that a Cleric is a Tier 1 full caster, with an amazing spell list which can conceivably do anything. A Tash PsyWar can't do that (though it could probably achieve higher damage), a Tash Ardent could approach that (or exceed it, at certain levels of optimization, though at those same levels the Cleric has done the same, so it's basically a wash). But that definition of "best" may not be your definition of "best" which is why my confusion remains. I guess a better question would be "Best at what?"

Now you also say "...as compared to the other's I'm playing with in this campaign." I must wonder, then, what are the others playing? It may be that a Tash PsyWar is more appropriate for the power level of this game than a Cloistered Cleric/PrC monster, but that depends, again, on what you want the character to be able to do, and how.

Okay, perhaps this will clarify.
Monk as a base class is a must.
Exalted is also a must.
I'm the only person in my group that thinks about optimization in general.
Of a team of four, two are new players.
The team consists of me, another Monk, (not my choice,) a cleric, and a barbarian.

I've already decided to go monk/psiwar. Finishing build right now. Will be posting (EDIT) NOW! haha.

Saint Timothy Alabastor- Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 16/Saint

Strength: 16 (+3)
Dexterity: 24 (+7)
Constitution: 18 (+4)
Intelligence: 15 (+2)
Wisdom: 34 (+12)
Charisma: 16 (+3)

Initiative: +9
Power Points: 247
Armor Class: 65 Flat Footed: 58 Touch: 49
Full Attack: 30/25/20 Flurry: 32/32/32/27/22

Class Abilities:
Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Evasion

Feats:
Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Monastic Training, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Tashalatora, Power Attack, Leap of the Heavens, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Eagle Claw Attack, Flying Kick, Snap Kick, Acrobatic Strike, Battle Jump, Hold the Line, Robilar’s Gambit, Earth’s Embrace

Exalted Feats:
Nymph’s Kiss, Intuitive Strike, Vow of Non-Violence, Vow of Peace, Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance, Sanctify Ki Strike, Fist of the Heavens, Holy Ki Strike, Stigmata, Words of Creation.

Powers:
Expansion, Offensive Prescience, Offensive Precognition, Psionic Lion’s Charge, Body Adjustment, Wall Walker, Greater Concealing Amorpha, Psionic Keen Edge, Ectoplasmic Form, Immovability, Psionic Dimension Door, Steadfast Perception, Three 5th Level Powers, Six 6th Level Powers.

[Omeron's Chosen]

Nevermind, build was rejected by the party. Back to the drawing board I guess...

Thanks to everyone for your input.

[Gavinfoxx]

So did they actually say WHY they rejected it?

Did you explain to them why you made the build the way you did?

[Omeron's Chosen]

To be brief, the other players felt that, because of my exalted nature, play would be needlessly complicated. This is okay though. I decided to instead play something very simple.

Kezzryn Tor, Half-Minotaur Centaur:
Lion Totem Barbarian 2, Fighter 2, Warhulk 10, Fighter 3.
No LA buy off, (don't want to complicate things for them.)

Stat Rolls:
Str- 15, Dex- 14, Con- 18, Int- 14, Wis- 13, Cha- 12.

Justice be done. :smallcool:

[Axier]

It does needlessly complicate gameplay, sort of. As someone who has a vow of peace, you cannot allow those around you to harm something that you have tried to subdue (yes, you could just Wang Chun your opponent down gently), but at that point, you must then defend their life from your allies. Also, if your allies kill someone, they start taking negatives to hit, that, at higher levels, can get to be -2o+, which, just kinda kills some peoples striking. Personally, as long as someone doesnt reduce an enemy to -1o or below, I don't count it in my campagnes (It says slays, not maimes), but some DM's wouldn't be too forgiving.

A character that benefits with all those vows is really Healer, who can just sit back and heal the party. Sure the healer imposes neggs to hit, but so long as no one is dropped to -1o, I don't really count it.

When it comes to Monk VoP, it is actually pretty decent, and you can smack the crap outta things quite effectively. Sure, you don't get the good equipment, but, you can get tons of AC and mad Flurry hits due to the high Ability modifiers. You won't be perfect, but you would be good. I would recomend other builds involving psionics or other though.

[Metahuman1]

To be brief, the other players felt that, because of my exalted nature, play would be needlessly complicated. This is okay though. I decided to instead play something very simple.

Kezzryn Tor, Half-Minotaur Centaur:
Lion Totem Barbarian 2, Fighter 2, Warhulk 10, Fighter 3.
No LA buy off, (don't want to complicate things for them.)

Stat Rolls:
Str- 15, Dex- 14, Con- 18, Int- 14, Wis- 13, Cha- 12.

Justice be done. :smallcool:

You mean spirit lion totem barbarian, right?

And those rolls, are they before or after Racail boosts form Half Minotaur and Centaur?

And would I be a bad man for suggesting looking at some of the barbarian variants in UA to replace Uncanny dodge, then suggesting dipping Warblade 2 and Swordsage 1 for martial Maneuvers instead of Fighter 3, or Warblade 1 Swordsage 1 Binder 1 instead of fighter three granting maneuvers and the ability to use first level vestages for extra tricks like easy ability score damage healing?


Oh, and look in Dungeon Scape, Getting Dungeon Crasher is likely better then a feat.



Just my thoughts.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, I'll give you a hint...its not the VoP Monk that your party had issues with, it was the Vow of Peace. Vow of Peace is retarded. You either have to build the whole party around it, or just not use it. If one person has it and nobody else wants to abide by it, the guy with it becomes "Stop Having Fun Guy". Nobody wants to play with that guy.

Your new build...wow. Yea. You forgot about your centaur RHD (there are 4). You're also gonna be a bit of a glass cannon. You are 3 HD short due to centaur and 1/2 mino LA, which loses you about 20 HP, but you have crazy Str which translates to decent damage. You are either gonna crush things, or they are gonna crush you. Especially at low levels.

Just something to think about. You might get a few screams of "overpowered" when you're hitting for 30 damage at ECL 5, but you'll drop from damage after 1-2 hits. An archer or blaster is gonna own you. Also, your will save is gonna be TRASH, so you might end up on the business end of a lot of Slow, Glitterdust, and other Will based disables.

[Metahuman1]

Yea, I'll give you a hint...its not the VoP Monk that your party had issues with, it was the Vow of Peace. Vow of Peace is retarded. You either have to build the whole party around it, or just not use it. If one person has it and nobody else wants to abide by it, the guy with it becomes "Stop Having Fun Guy". Nobody wants to play with that guy.

Your new build...wow. Yea. You forgot about your centaur RHD (there are 4). You're also gonna be a bit of a glass cannon. You are 3 HD short due to centaur and 1/2 mino LA, which loses you about 20 HP, but you have crazy Str which translates to decent damage. You are either gonna crush things, or they are gonna crush you. Especially at low levels.

Just something to think about. You might get a few screams of "overpowered" when you're hitting for 30 damage at ECL 5, but you'll drop from damage after 1-2 hits. An archer or blaster is gonna own you. Also, your will save is gonna be TRASH, so you might end up on the business end of a lot of Slow, Glitterdust, and other Will based disables.

My answer to the last part is Steadfast Determination.

Thought right off the top of my head I've got nothing for the Archer and the Blaster, for for making yourself survive longer. Except to buy off the LA and see about Hit dice retraining.

[Dragonsoul]

Now, I'm going to deviate from the norm slightly and throw a build I made a while back at you, its quite fun, remember not all games have GM's using major OPfu, so taking a weak concept and having fun with can work and saves you from the DM handbook upside the head

I'm using Fractional BAB as it a system I always use, It makes my life so much easier, not Fractional saves though.
Salem Ghostwalker 10,12,12,10,16,16
Monk 2- Evasion, +3/+3/+3. Wis to AC Gives Monk Stuff Feats: Vow of Poverty, Sacred Vow
Paladin 2- Cha to saves, no other reason +6/+3/+3 Feat: Quick Draw
Swordsage 2- Manuevers,Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike),Wis to AC +6/+6/+6
Feat: True Believer
Red Avenger 1 - Saves, Stunning Shout +8/+8/+8
Ninja of the cresent Moon- Saves, Monk AC, Sneak Attack +10/+10/+10
Pious Templear -<Picking a diety with Favoured Weapon-Unarmed Strike>
Mettle, +12/+10/+12
Cleric - Domains (Luck,Pride) +14/+10/+14
Shadow Sun Ninja- Weird Touch ability, Saves, Monkness 16/12/16
Apostle of Peace - Saves,Spells 18/14/18
Poverty Feats at 1/3/5/7/9/11(6)
Nymphs Kiss,Vow of non Violence, Vow of Peace,Santify Martial Stike(Unarmed Attacks), Vow of Purity, Vow of Chastity
So Fort +18, Reflex +14 Will +18
Not much yet but I had Charisma, which is now at 22 Because of Vow of Poverty, and the VoP saves(another +1) this Makes it +25/+21/+25 add it stat bonuses,, +26/+22/+29 (VoP added +4Cha,+2 Wis) Fort Goes up to +30 for death effects and Will goes to +33 for Charm and Compulsion, and Nymphs kiss adds +1 to all of them for spells.
Now to Calculate AC!
VoP- Gives +7 Exalted, +1 Deflection, +1 NA, Monk/Swordsage adds Wis Twice (+4x2), +6 VoPeace oh and Dex Twice (2nd from Ninja, it calls out in the text) =35AC

Aura= 10+5(1/2 CL) +6(CHA)+4(VoNW)=25 Shatter DC=10+5+4+1=20
DC Stunning Fist=10+5(1/2 CL)+4(WIS)+4(VoNV)=23

So I jut stun 'em down and Knock 'em unconscious.
OPTIONAL EXTRA
Now How to use that WBL... it says I can't have Magic items, but Grafts aren't magic items- they're not really items at all so by RAW they are allowed-(Maybe....)
Feathered Wings- 10,000gp Fly @twice Land speed
Strong Leg - 8,000 +2 Con
If any mentions that Daily will Save-its DC 15, and I get two rerolls, I'll get Wis Drain on average every 20 years- I'll take that chance.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait, you chose vow of peace and vow of poverty without being forced into it??

[Dragonsoul]

^^ Remember that some people like aiming lower for there optimisation and Vow of Poverty cuts a LOT of paperwork, you don't have to worry about magic items and the GM can't go "Lol Sunder"

[Rubik]

Any time I come across a VoP monk I plan on using some sovereign glue and gold coins. Stick it to his face at night if it's a party member, so he's no longer a drain on resources. Glue and throw if he's an NPC, so he's no longer anywhere near a threat.

It won't cure their stupidity, but it'll make the world a better place.

[Keld Denar]

Having money isn't kryptonite to a VoP character. They can carry as much wealth as they want, assuming that they are planning on donating that money to a charity or other worthy (non-PC) cause. They just can't benefit from it in the meantime.

The VoP character could simply leave the coin glued to his forehead until he got somewhere where he could donate it, and then cut it off, taking whatever damage is appropriate, and then sleeping to heal the HP loss.

It would be inconvenient for the character, but by no means would cause him to fall.

[Metahuman1]

Heck, if he already had fast healing, he might even thank you for the donation. :smallamused:

[Rubik]

Then I'll use an ioun stone on him while he sleeps.

So long as he benefits from it (AC, or saves, or +Str, or regeneration), bye bye VoP.

[Metahuman1]

Not if he willingly elects not to use it once he notices it's helping him. BEFORE he's aware of it, doesn't count, and he can elect to willingly soften up his AC (I'm deliberatly allowing extra openings in my guard.) Saves (I'm not trying as hard as I can to fight it/diliberatly forcing myself to pause a bit longer then strickly nessissary for me normally to avoid it when I jump clear.) Str boost (I'm pulling my punches by diliberatly using a form that doesn't put all of str behind the attack like normal and not aiming for the normal weak points/attacking form a somewhat off balance position.).

The only way you get him is with Regeneration, and even that wouldn't count against him if he willingly makes his very next immediate goal to ditch the stone's effects and get's rid of it as swiftly as he possibly can while doing everything in his power not to NEED regeneration, such as avoiding fights as often as possible while not allowing this to cause death to innocents. (I.E. He'll stop the Mugger half orc form killing the merchant, but he'll only do what he needs to to ensure the Half Orc is removed as a threat then come back to deal with him properly after he loses the magic item.)

After all, there was a WILLING clause to the feat. And he didn't WILLINGLY attempt to get the befits of an Ioun stone, someone went out of there way to force it on him in order to destroy his life.




Note: I'm not saying it's a good feat or anything, just that going out of your way to force a player not to play it is EXTREMELY bad form and generally should not be allowed to succeed.

[Rubik]

Note: I'm not saying it's a good feat or anything, just that going out of your way to force a player not to play it is EXTREMELY bad form and generally should not be allowed to succeed.I tend to play intelligent characters that are goal-oriented. If a party member is purposefully making it more difficult for the party to succeed by throwing away the power necessary to do so, then it's up to me to get rid of the dead weight. That means that we can either A.) throw the person out of the group or B.) push him to make better decisions.

And if the rest of the group won't do A.) and he refuses to do B.), then it's time to take measures to ensure that he does B.) whether he wants to or not.

Lives (both the party's and others') are at stake when you're an adventurer. You have to be practical rather than bloody stupid, or people die.

[Keld Denar]

On the other side, if you die in the game, you don't die in real life. You roll new characters, integrate them back into the story, or simply start a new story. D&D isn't serious business. I'm as much of an optimizer as the next guy (just ask anyone), but trolling another player's character is kinda being a douche.

And as Saph once said: "my character is a douche, I'm just RPing him correctly" is not a valid excuse for being a douche.

[Metahuman1]

Hence why you show him a better option, such as Unarmed swordsage, possibly with a monk Dip to get a feat or two or early use of Evasion, and explain WHY Vow of Poverty is bad both for him and the party. You do this out of character, preferably before the game begins or at least before he actually takes the feat.

If all else fails, do a homebrew Monk and VoP fix and show them to him, tweaking till he likes them, and then have him use that. Make sure you address the worst problems with the class and feat respectively.

Problem solved.

Oh, and I've had a group that spent there entire time killing me for "te Luzs" Using "You don't know how to build a character that contributes" as a BS excuse. And cause the Ring leader there was a girl the DM wanted rather badly to get in bed with, they kept getting away with. So you'll forgive me if I have limited patient with that kind of inflexibility.